← The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell
The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell
Lawrence: Trump letting Musk intrude into Treasury is biggest, most important data breach ever
00:38:52
Tonight on The Last Word: Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent grants Elon Musk unprecedented access to sensitive data. Also, Donald Trump releases water in California, but floods areas unaffected by wildfires. Plus, prominent attorneys warn the Trump Justice Department against publicly releasing the names of purged officials. Norm Ornstein, E.J. Dionne, Sen. Adam Schiff, Frank Figliuzzi, and Andrew Weissmann join Lawrence O’Donnell.
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- [00:00]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Where'd you get those shoes? DSW has all the shoes you need for whatever you're into. You know, like running shoes that give new meaning to personal best or everyday sneakers that make coffee runs look cool. Basically, DSW has all the best styles from the brands that always get it right, like Nike, Brooks, Timberland, and more. Oh yeah, did we mention they also happen to be the perfect price. Find a shoe for every you at your DSW store and dsw.com.
- [00:31]
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- [01:03]
Commentator
Has the nuclear codes? Think about it. The only answer to that question, the only honest answer to that question tonight for the first time in history, is we don't know. We don't know who has the nuclear codes. We don't know who has what inside the Trump government. We don't know who is doing what inside the Trump government. But we do know they are doing things that have never been done before and that are illegal. We know that those things are not legal. We know that Donald Trump has given Elon Musk the domestic equivalent of the nuclear codes, the keys to the treasury of the United States of America. In the biggest, most important data breach in the history of the world, Elon Musk has gone where no political operative has ever gone before. He has gone where no Treasury Secretary has ever gone before. And that is to the innermost sanctum of the United States Treasury. Where your money is collected and spent. Where your name is collected, where your Social Security number is collected. Where your baby's Social Security number is collected on day one of your baby's life. Most people working for the Treasury Department don't even know where that is. No one in politics, which very much includes every Treasury Secretary because they are appointed by politicians, has ever even shown an interest in trying to get at the actual payment mechanisms operated by the United States Treasury. And of all the horrendous things that have happened in the Trump regime just in the last weekend, nothing is potentially more dangerous than that. Nothing is more corrupt. Than that. Donald Trump's treasury secretary is now the first treasury secretary in history who should be impeached. Impeached for handing those keys to the treasury, to Elon Musk. It would be like having the richest customer of a bank telling the bank president, hey, I want to see everyone else's accounts at the bank. And the bank president just opens the books to let the richest customer of the bank see and do whatever he wants. And to extend this example a bit, imagine that the richest customer of that bank actually hates that bank and is fully loyal to another bank. And that bank is in China. And his business and wealth is completely dependent on the good graces of the government of China. What are the chances that Elon Musk would let his friends and the Chinese government know a little bit more or a lot more about the inner workings of the United States Treasury? Does anyone think there is a zero chance of that happening? A zero chance? Does anyone think that Elon Musk, the most erratic public figure in the world, not named Donald Trump, can actually be trusted with anything? We have no idea what Elon Musk and the very young men with him are doing inside the treasury of the United States. No one knows. Donald Trump doesn't even know. The one thing we do know is there's nothing good that they can do inside the treasury of the United States. And the other thing we know is that nothing like this has ever happened before in the history of the United States of America. On Friday, the career treasury official who has served under every Republican and every Democratic president of the last 30 years, David Lebrecht, resigned from the treasury after Treasury Secretary Scott Besant pushed him out of his position and handed the keys to the treasury to Elon Musk. And for that, the treasury secretary should be impeached. Won't be, of course, but should. Republicans would never, never conduct an impeachment against anyone in Trump world. Donald Trump is deliberately creating so many distractions that it's hard for people to know which ones are serious. And every word Donald Trump says about Greenland, I think, is not serious and can be ignored. And we know, as I always suspected, every word Donald Trump says about tariffs is not serious and can be ignored. Because at the last minute, as he did today, Donald Trump will back down, as he did back down today from his threat of tariffs, especially when the stock market crashes, for a couple of hours. Because of those threats, the news media finally decided to pay attention to tariffs just this weekend. 60 Minutes actually instructed its viewers last night that it is not foreign countries who pay Trump Tariffs. It is the audience of 60 minutes in the United States, Americans who pay Trump tariffs. It would have been a nice thing for 60 minutes to tell its viewers something like that during the presidential campaign, but they finally got around to it last night because 60 Minutes fell for Donald Trump's phony threats about imposing insanely high tariffs, which are also illegal on Canada and Mexico. Tariffs, like taxes, are set in law by Congress, not the president. In fact, nafta, which Donald Trump criticized so intently, is simply a law that adjusted the tariffs, mostly lowering them, that the United States imposed on goods coming into the country from Mexico. Donald Trump claimed to hate nafta, and so in his first term as president, he updated it, which is a perfectly normal thing for the government to do with trade agreements like that. Every decade or so, they should be updated. And Donald Trump's update of NAFTA was passed through Congress, and that's how it became the new law governing all international trade between Canada, the United States and Mexico, all of North America, the North American Free Trade Agreement. And so the tariff laws that we are living with tonight for Mexico and Canada were written by Donald Trump and the Republican Congress who updated nafta. And this is what Donald Trump said about how great that law was when he was president.
- [08:20]
Donald Trump
For the first time in American history, we have replaced a disastrous trade deal that rewarded outsourcing with a truly fair and reciprocal trade deal that will keep jobs, wealth, and growth right here in America.
- [08:35]
Commentator
Wow. Great. It was great. It was the best trade deal ever in history, according to Donald Trump. And today, the man who said that about that North American trade deal with Canada and Mexico that he negotiated said this.
- [08:51]
Donald Trump
We have big deficits with Canada like we do with all countries. I mean, I look at some of the deals made, I say, who the hell made these deals are so bad.
- [09:01]
Commentator
You made those deals with Canada and with Mexico. And it is Donald Trump's own deal with Canada and Mexico that he is now complaining about and says he wants to violate. Donald Trump's update of NAFTA was done the legal way through Congress. The only legal way a president can raise or lower a tariff is for national security reasons, no other reason. And there is not a single tariff that can be imposed on Canada for national security reasons. There is not a single tariff that can be imposed on Mexico for national security reasons. And so those threatened Trump Trump tariffs are illegal. And they are yet another proof for anyone who needs it that we are not a nation of laws. There is much to ignore in what Donald Trump says. And on this program. I'll only try to direct your attention to the things that Donald Trump does that really matter. And what Donald Trump and Elon Musk are doing at the treasury is something no one should ignore. No one knows what they are doing at the Treasury. That is what really matters about it. And so in the second coming of Donald Trump, the myths fell away. Myths like we are a nation of laws. That is one of America's most flattering and false self delusions. We are and we have always. What we are and what we've always been is a nation of laws for some people and not for others. The original law of the land, the Constitution, was written exclusively by propertied white men, for propertied white men alone to enjoy all the legal rights granted under the Constitution. By 1975, we had more rights than ever before in our history to regard ourselves as a nation of laws. In the best sense of that idea. The Voting Rights act was 10 years old then. At that point, black people were finally taking their rightful place in the American electorate all over the country. And in 1975, it was the law that closed in on Republican President Richard Nixon for the crimes he committed in office and drove him to resign the presidency. A true triumph for a nation of laws. And if you lived through that period, you had every right to believe that we or a nation of laws, But Donald Trump and the Supreme Court justices he appointed and the Republican members of the House and Senate have proved to you in the last year, in every way that they possibly could, that we are not a nation of laws. All the worst things Donald Trump has done in the last few days are against the law, all of them law that turns out to be unenforceable against Donald Trump or against his friend, the private citizen Elon Musk, whose American citizenship is his third choice of citizenship after first South African citizenship, then Canadian citizen citizenship, and now finally his third choice, American citizenship. Not all violations of law are crimes. When Donald Trump violates the law by freezing some federal spending, as he did last week, no one can be charged with a crime. So the lawyers run into federal court and they sue Donald Trump and the federal government for freezing that funding, and then they get an injunction in the case. They win that point with the judge. They got an injunction against Donald Trump for freezing the funding, and Donald Trump is still freezing that funding because that injunction and the law behind it is effectively unenforceable against Donald Trump. Because, no, we are not a nation of laws. Among the other Trump horrors that really matter is Donald Trump giving the richest person in the world. The illegal authority to take aid away from the poorest people in the world. Ten years before Elon Musk was born into privilege on the white side of apartheid in South Africa, the President of the United States said this. Our efforts to help other new or developing nations and to strengthen their standards for freedom have also made progress. A new unified Agency for International Development is reorienting our foreign assistance to emphasize long term development. Loans instead of grants, more economic aid instead of military, individual plans to meet the individual needs of the nations and new standards on what they must do to marshal their own resources. This weekend Elon Musk said USAID is a criminal organization. Time for it to die. The United States Congress created the United States Agency for International Development in a law signed by President Kennedy and Elon Musk claims now to have the power to kill it. In a nation of laws that cannot happen. How long has Elon Musk hated the United States Agency for International Development? Did he begin hating it when USAID was supporting the American government foreign policy of opposition to apartheid in South Africa? When Elon Musk was benefiting from apartheid in South Africa? Is that how Elon Musk learned to hate that branch of American government that helps the poorest people in the world? There is life saving medicine rotting on loading docks in Africa right now because Elon Musk has decided there is not a single poor person in the world who should be receiving any help from the United States of America tonight for anything. What kind of sociopaths want mothers to watch their babies die in African countries tomorrow and the next day? And the what kind of sociopaths want people to starve? And you can't say, oh, they don't want babies to die. They don't want people to starve. That's not their intention. When you stop the movement of food supplies to starving people, you are starving those people. When you stop the delivery of life saving medicine, you don't get to say that you don't want anyone to die. What they're doing is immoral and it is illegal in a nation of laws. An American government agency created by Congress and President Kennedy by law can only be stopped by Congress passing another law signed by another president. That's how it works in a nation of laws. The new Secretary of State Marco Rubio stepped in to run interference for Elon Musk today by declaring himself the acting Administrator for the United States Agency for International Development before then announcing that he was putting a State Department appointee who is not confirmed by the Senate in charge of The Agency for International Development. And so now someone named Pete Morocco. Yeah, that's his real name. Will decide how many babies die. He will decide how many people starve. NBC News reports. In early 2023, online sleuths who aided the FBI in cases against hundreds of January 6th rioters identified Morocco and his now wife as being among the rioters who stormed the Capitol in 2021, pointing to multiple images of them on the Capitol grounds that day. And CCTV video that shows the man they identified as Morocco entering the Capitol through a broken window. That's who's in charge of President Kennedy's creation right now. Tonight, Pete Morocco. From John F. Kennedy to Pete Morocco, all in Donald Trump's lifetime in a nation of laws, Pete Morocco would be powerless tonight and President Kennedy's law would still be delivering life saving aid around the world. Leading off our discussion tonight is congressional historian Norm Orstein. He's an emeritus scholar at the American Enterprise Institute. Nijay Dion, an opinion columnist for the Washington Post and a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution. He is a government professor at Georgetown University. And Norm, let me begin with you. And there's so much happening here and so much coming at us that I don't want to target a question for you. I want you to just air out with us what you've been thinking about as this has been happening.
- [18:06]
Norm Ornstein
You say that of all the powerful introductions you've given on this show, that I think is the most powerful and the most chilling. And that is where we are right now. And it is a putsch in progress occurring very rapidly. And we have to fear that our guardrails are just not there. Most of them are not there. Little Marco Rubio was chosen for a reason, and we're seeing that reason. He will cave. And you know, Marco Rubio was given all kinds of awards for supporting development and diplomacy. Now we see where he is. Susan Collins today announced she's going to vote for Tulsi Gabbard. One thing we ought to add about foreign it is something that is there to protect vulnerable people around the world, but it is also in America's national interest. We have had viruses emerge from continents like Africa that have come to the United States and killed people. And there will be more of them because they're dismantling our healthcare system and our Centers for Disease Control. We know that China Xi is giddy about this because China, Russia and others are moving in to take our place in countries and that will damage us. And with all of this, we see no Republican in Congress. Stepping up to say enough is enough. We are finally having some Democrats who are starting to do what they should have done, frankly, what they should have started to do on November 5th when they still had the majority. There is a lot more that they can and must do. We need House Democrats to step up and hold their own field hearings in the districts of Republican congresspeople who are vulnerable to show what they're doing to destroy the fabric of America. We ought to have impeachment resolutions brought against, for example, Bassett, who is violating his own responsibility, having been confirmed as a Treasury secretary. This is a bigger threat than January 6th was, because then we had some guardrails. And if we don't see everybody in this country who cares about our future stepping up to do what they can. The Senate Democrats need to bring the place to a complete halt as much as they possibly can, stopping all action and delaying wherever they can, in part to force the press, which you have talked about so much, to finally cover with the detail and the emphasis that's needed, what individual reporters are doing, but we're not seeing elsewhere how dangerous all of this is.
- [20:54]
Commentator
Yeah. I. When you look at what is happening inside the treasury, you just wonder, what more could Elon Musk do for China? EJ when you know China is absolutely thrilled with chaos inside the Treasury United States, it never occurred to anyone on a Senate confirmation hearing for treasury secretary that you'd have to ask them, will you protect the money? Will you do that like that? No one ever thought that that had to be asked. But, E.J. when you know, Elon Musk knows very well, knows very well what the United States has been trying to do with aid in Africa for his entire life. He knows exactly what they've been trying to do there. He also knows what China is doing in Africa and how much influence China is gaining on the continent of Africa through its massive investment in China. And every single thing I see Elon Musk do since his engagement in the Trump administration is extremely helpful to China.
- [21:59]
E.J. Dionne
Yes.
- [22:00]
Donald Trump
And I think it's really important to underscore that there is the horror, the moral horror of shutting down USAID and taking aid away from the poorest people on earth. But nothing could be further from defending America's interests than shutting down usaid. I had a student this year, actually, who wrote a really superb paper on how China has been gaining ground influence with investment, with money going into Africa. And it's not always, you know, it's not like they're buying off these countries because its belt and road initiative for example has had a lot of pushback from some of the countries that got it. But they were there and the United States is playing catch up. And all of a sudden our efforts to play catch up are just shut down entirely by cutting off U.S. aid. And so I think it's really important Republicans tend to look USAID as giveaways to other countries. Well, yeah, sometimes it is giving money to people who are starving, but this is done because it is in America's interest. And I think you hit a break point over the last three or four days in the debate that I think Trump really did have Democrats reeling, and people were still shocked by the election. And I think the first thing that finally galvanized people was freezing that aid, where suddenly people discover, as they always do when there's a government shutdown or aid disappears, that government does a lot of stuff I like, for schools, for Meals on Wheels, for housing. And Trump had to retreat on that. And now you've had this discovery of Musk getting control of all of this financial data on pretty much everybody in the country. And I think, finally, that has alarmed people, Democrats for sure, to the point where they are speaking up. Senator Schumer, the Democratic leader, gave a long speech on the danger of this. And as Norm said, it is still shocking, although not surprising, that Republicans just aren't speaking up at all. They've given their votes, their voices, their souls to Donald Trump. In any other time, you would have had some Republican senators say, wait a minute, do we really want, want someone who's running an agency that isn't even an agency of government, that isn't accountable to have all this data? But those voices aren't there.
- [24:42]
Commentator
E.J. deon and Norm Ornstein, thank you very much for starting off our discussion tonight.
- [24:47]
Donald Trump
Thanks be with you, Lawrence.
- [24:49]
Commentator
Coming up, the Wall Street Journal accused Donald Trump of trying to start, quote, the dumbest trade war in history. And while he was at it, Donald Trump did the dumbest thing you could possibly do with water resources in California, which he lied about today in the Oval Office. That and more next.
- [25:09]
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- [25:41]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Where'd you get those shoes? DSW has all the shoes you need for whatever you're into. You know, like running shoes that give new meaning to personal best or everyday sneakers that make coffee runs look cool. Basically, DSW has all the best styles from the brands that always get it right, like Nike, Brooks, Timberland and more. Oh yeah, did we mention they also happen to be the perfect price. Find a shoe for every you at your DSW store and dsw.com.
- [26:12]
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- [26:47]
Commentator
As usual, everything Donald Trump said to reporters in the Oval Office today was a lie, and there was no indication that any of them understood what he said about California water.
- [26:59]
Donald Trump
I opened up the water for California. It's a great thing. It's too bad they didn't do it themselves. I had to do it and it was not easy. We did it a very rough way and I didn't like to do it a rough way. We shouldn't have to to do it.
- [27:10]
Commentator
A rough way in the stupidest water action in the history of California. Last week, without warning, Donald Trump had the Army Corps of Engineers open up a federally controlled flow of water in Northern California that was completely unnecessary and unusable by anyone in Southern California and possibly by anyone in California, because it almost created flooding in an excess of water beyond what anyone could use. And that water was completely incapable of reaching anywhere close to the Los Angeles area, where Donald Trump is pretending his water could help with firefighting. One water scientist told Los Angeles Times, I don't know where this water is going, but this is the wrong time of year to be releasing water from these reservoirs. It's vitally important that we fill our reservoirs in the rainy season so water is available for farms and cities later in the summer. Everyone in California knows that, and no one in the Oval Office today knew that. Another water expert told the LA Times, this is going to hurt farmers. This takes Water out of their Summer Irrigation portfolio. 40,000 people in Los Angeles who have been burned out of their homes. Thousands more having to spend tens of thousands of dollars to have toxic ash removed from their surviving homes and property. People still mourning the dead, the people who lost their lives in the Los Angeles fires. And Donald Trump decides to insult them all by wasting water in Northern California and telling reporters and his followers today what a hero he is for stupidly wasting that water. Joining us now is Democratic Senator Adam Schiff of California. He's a member of the Senate Judiciary Committee, as well as the and the Committee on Environment and Public Works and the Agriculture Committee. And Senator Schiff, let me just begin with the California water point, because you are an expert on exactly what happened and what should not have happened with that water.
- [29:37]
Adam Schiff
Well, I spent part of this weekend in the Central Valley, which is the largest agricultural producing area in the country. No one can make heads or tails out of what Donald Trump did or why or thinks it makes any sense whatsoever. As you were pointing out, that water can't get to Los Angeles. The fires are out. They're not 5% contained or 20 or 50% contained. They're 100% contained. So that water is going to be of no use to firefighters. But here's the thing. It's been a dry winter. There isn't as much snowpack as we would usually have. We rely on water that is stored like this water when farmers need it in summer to irrigate. They're not irrigating now. So that water's going to sit in a lake, it's going to evaporate, it's going to be wasted. And had local authorities not prevailed at the last minute, Instead of wasting 1 to 3 billion gallons of water, it would have been two or three times that amount. That's what the president wanted released. That not only would have wasted so much more water, but it would have endangered people along the riverbanks. It also might have flooded crops. And I can only think that someone got to the administration and said, do you really want images of people washed away by this water or crops destroyed by this water to help you with your photo op? It was just a boneheaded thing to do and wasteful of a precious resource.
- [31:03]
Commentator
Senator, how do you manage your own focus on the latest crisis from Donald Trump? You've got to worry about what is Elon Musk doing inside the Treasury. And, and no one knows. And no one in the United States Senate knows. No Republican senator knows. No one has any idea. You have to worry about what Donald Trump and his regime is trying to do at the Justice Department with firing FBI agents, closing down usaid. How do you choose to focus on these things?
- [31:38]
Adam Schiff
I try to focus on the big things that matter the most. And to me, some of the things that matter the most are, for example, the mass deportations. I spoke to farm workers who lost their husbands, their husbands were deported, pulled over at random. I talked to children whose fathers were taken out of the country, who were in tears. I talked to mothers who were afraid to take their kids to school. That really matters. I look at what's being done in my old department, the Justice Department, by this retribution campaign, this purge, firing top prosecutors, firing top FBI agents. This is going to make us less safe. We have some of the most experienced people fighting crime who are being fired because they're on Donald Trump's enemies list. This effort to violate the law, shutter usaid. Elon Musk, the oligarch, running really a rampage, a campaign of vandalism against some of these agencies like USAID or seeking to get data to, I guess, supplement the data he already owns. To me, it all fits under the rubric of corruption. This is a corrupt regime trying to aggrandize itself, trying to gain more power, trying to make itself richer. And so I think we not only have to identify the most significant things to push back on and use every tool we can touch, we also have to explain how does this all fit together. And it all fits together as part of a corrupt scheme to turn this country into a one man rule and to enrich Donald Trump and his wealthy friends like Elon Musk.
- [33:18]
Commentator
Senator Adam Schiff, thank you very much for joining us tonight on what will be, I'm sure a recurring theme when you join us on this program. Thank you, Senator.
- [33:28]
Adam Schiff
Thank you.
- [33:29]
Commentator
Coming up, the latest on what Donald Trump and his former criminal defense lawyer are doing at the Justice Department. That's who's in charge of the Justice Department right now. Donald Trump's former criminal defense lawyer, Andrew Weissman will join us. Frank Fergloozzi will join us. We'll be right back.
- [33:50]
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- [34:21]
Commentator
Where'd you get those shoes? Easy. They're from DSW.
- [34:25]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Because DSW has the exact right shoes.
- [34:27]
Commentator
For whatever you're into right now.
- [34:29]
Lawrence O'Donnell
You know, like the sneakers that make.
- [34:31]
Commentator
Office hours feel like happy hour, the boots that turn grocery aisles into runways, and all the styles that show off the many sides of you, from daydreamer to multitasker, and everything in between. Because you do it all in really great shoes. Find a shoe for every you at your DSW store or dsw.com this is.
- [34:53]
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- [35:27]
Commentator
Tonight NBC News is reporting FBI executives contemplated existing Justice Department demands that they turn over the names of FBI personnel involved in capital riot cases, but ultimately decided they must comply with what lawyers deemed a lawful order. Current and former FBI officials told NBC News. Among the options under consideration was sending only the names of managers and senior executives. But the FBI's Office of General Counsel decided the demand by the Trump Justice Department for all of the names was legal and compliance was not optional. In a two page letter to acting Deputy Attorney General Emil Bovey, who was Donald Trump's criminal defense lawyer, three prominent attorneys in Washington warned him of legal action if Trump's Justice Department fires those FBI agents or puts them in danger by publicly releasing their names. Letter says if you proceed with terminations and or public exposure of terminated employees identities, we stand ready to vindicate their rights through all available legal means of all people and entities. The Department of Justice and the FBI have a sacred obligation to keep the American people safe. You also have personally taken an oath to support and defend the Constitution, and you have ethical responsibilities as a department employee and a member of the bar. Joining us now is Frank Friglosi, a former FBI Assistant Director for counterintelligence and an MSNBC senior national security and intelligence analyst. Also with us, Andrew Weissman, former FBI general counsel and former chief of the Criminal Division in the Eastern District of New York. He's an MSNBC legal analyst. And Andrew, let's begin with you because your old job is mentioned here, FBI general counsel advised you must turn over all of those names.
- [37:13]
E.J. Dionne
So I disagree with that. I think it depends on what the intent is. The only non nefarious intent would be if you want those names because you want to commend them. I worked on the Enron case. There was a huge team. I could imagine the Justice Department saying we need to know everyone there because we want to give than an award. Emile Beauvais made it clear that's not why they want the list. He said it's about possible employment action. And he has also described the January six cases as agreeing with Donald Trump that it was appropriate to describe them as a grave injustice. Bringing cases involving the January 6th insurrection are current. Number two in the Justice Department has described that way the if the intent of this list is to make public their names and put a target on their back, that is unlawful. If the intent is to take adverse employment action for doing your job, that again, that violates the civil service rules. So the key to making that determination is the intent. And if I were still the general counsel, I would say until we are told what the intent is, that we cannot determine that is the lawful thing to comply with.
- [38:28]
Commentator
Frank, what is legal here? Who can be fired at the FBI? Can there be mass firings of thousands of FBI agents this way?
- [38:39]
I
Well, I fear we're about to find out, Lawrence. In my 25 years of experience, particularly in senior leadership positions and sometimes making decisions as part of the Inspection Division, Office of Professional Responsibility on dismissals, you cannot summarily dismiss an employee without a finding of gross misconduct. And that's not even been alleged here, let alone investigated here. So we're talking about unlawful dismissals which will be determined by courts. The problem is, as I hear from agents, particularly in the field, who are not eligible for retirement, they're very concerned about putting food on the table and paying for kids college tuition and all of that. So while they battle this in court, if it plays out, they're looking at a year, maybe two, before the courts actually decide a final decision on this.
- [39:31]
Commentator
We're going to squeeze in a quick break here and continue this, get Andrew's view of what's legal, what's not here. We'll be right back. We're back with Frank Fuguzzi and Andrew Weissman. Andrew, so people know there's public information that these jobs are threatened. Is there enough public information for those lawyers who wrote that letter to go into court to try to get an injunction to prevent the movement of all those names to the White House. Or does someone have to do something more? They have to send the names or they have to fire someone in order to have a cause of action.
- [40:14]
E.J. Dionne
So there have been firings already. So they do have that. So they actually can challenge that. The issue with the list, the list of what could be 6,000 or so people, is you can't wait until. If there was an intent to have that be made public, you cannot wait until that happens because you can't pull it back. The idea is that they will have their target on their back. The president has already pardoned the perpetrators, the people who might carry out and target these people. Now, if you create a list and that list is made public, it's too late. So what you do is you go to court and you have a judge who ideally says, you know, Lawrence, what are you planning on doing with this list that is lawful? Tell me now, because if you're planning on making it public, denied, like I'm preventing you from doing that, if you're planning on taking action, adverse action in terms of employment, are you going to comply with what's called sort of Matthews v. Eldredge standards to be really nerdy, which is due process. As Frank said, you can't just summarily fire somebody without some cause. And you know what's not cause? Investigating and prosecuting a righteous case. That is not cause to fire somebody. That is cause to commend that person.
- [41:34]
Commentator
Frank, when you first heard about this, what was your very first reaction as a career FBI agent when you heard this?
- [41:44]
I
This is our worst nightmare, not only as a former agent, but really for society writ large, because it seems to be the unraveling of the rule of law. If we're going to have situations where FBI agents are afraid of opening a case for political reasons, or we aren't opening cases today on Republicans or the next administration, we're not going to open cases on Democrats, then we've lost it in terms of a neutral investigative agency. And this sounds a lot like some of our adversaries of this nation who control law enforcement, try to control the media, etc. I also, my heart went out to not so much executives who, many of whom, in fact, almost all, Almost all of these executives are eligible for retirement. They will get pensions. But the rank and file in the field, this is wreaking havoc with them. And they've had an incredible three weeks, the FBI, in just the last three weeks has captured two top 10 fugitives, has put divers in the Potomac river searching for evidence of a plane crash on the ground in Philadelphia. With that plane crash, searching Bourbon street after the terror attack New Year's Day, all of that's been happening. Some agents have lost their homes in wildfires in California and now this. This is not making America safe.
- [42:57]
Commentator
Frank Fragluzzi, Andrew Weissman, thank you both for joining us tonight. You're welcome. That is tonight's last word.
- [43:04]
Lawrence O'Donnell
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