Lawrence: Trump pick Musk hasn't promised to stop drug use which violates his top security clearance

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell
Episode: Lawrence: Trump pick Musk hasn't promised to stop drug use which violates his top security clearance
Release Date: December 18, 2024

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I. Elon Musk's Security Clearance Controversy

Overview:
The episode delves into the controversy surrounding Elon Musk's security clearance, highlighting allegations of drug use that violate federal regulations. The discussion explores the implications of Musk's appointment by former President Donald Trump to a newly established government entity, the Department of Government Efficiency, which currently lacks Senate confirmation requirements.

Key Points:

• Department of Government Efficiency:

  • Lawrence O'Donnell introduces the topic by questioning the necessity of Senate confirmation for Musk's appointment, suggesting that such scrutiny would reveal his drug use issues (02:00).

• New York Times Investigation:

  • Declan Walsh references a breaking news report by Eric Lipton of the New York Times, which exposes Musk's failure to comply with federal security reporting protocols. An internal email from Cody Miller, a former SpaceX security clearance official, indicated a lax attitude towards following security rules (05:00).
  • Elon Musk's Actions:
    • Musk was filmed smoking pot on the Joe Rogan podcast, a violation of his top security clearance.
    • He admitted to using ketamine, a controlled substance, sometimes self-prescribed to manage his mental health (06:10).

• Implications of Continuous Vetting:

  • Eric Lipton explains the concept of continuous vetting, emphasizing its importance in maintaining top-secret clearances. Musk's actions have raised significant concerns about his eligibility for such access (12:00).

• Presidential Overreach:

  • Lipton and Declan Walsh discuss the President's authority to grant security clearances, citing the example of Jared Kushner. They express concerns that Trump's influence could bypass standard security protocols, potentially compromising national security (15:40).

Notable Quotes:

• Declan Walsh:
  "If Elon Musk had to submit to a Senate confirmation hearing, he would be asked about his publicly proclaimed drug use, which is one of the reasons the New York Times breaking news tonight is that Elon Musk has violated the security reporting rules for his and his company's top secret security clearance." (04:00)

• Eric Lipton:
  "SpaceX has billions of dollars worth of federal contracts to launch spy satellites... there are individuals at the company that have top secret clearances to be able to be read into those kinds of programs." (13:00)

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II. Senator Ed Markey's Criticism of Robert F. Kennedy Jr.'s Nomination

Overview:
Senator Ed Markey vehemently opposes President Trump's nomination of Robert F. Kennedy Jr. as Secretary of Health and Human Services (HHS), citing Kennedy's controversial stance on vaccines and lack of medical qualifications.

Key Points:

• Vaccine Misinformation:

  • Markey accuses Kennedy of spreading falsehoods about vaccines, including misinformation about the polio vaccine and HIV/AIDS, which have had dire public health consequences (21:00).

• Lack of Qualifications:

  • Kennedy's academic and professional background is scrutinized, highlighting his struggles in pre-med courses and his history of drug addiction (22:30).

• Impact on Public Health:

  • Markey emphasizes the importance of upholding scientific integrity in public health roles, warning that Kennedy's appointment could undermine decades of progress in combating infectious diseases (23:00).

Notable Quotes:

• Senator Ed Markey:
  "Donald Trump picked Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. To lead HHS. A man who has questioned the well-proven conclusion that HIV causes AIDS, made millions by spreading lies about vaccines... He is dangerous, unqualified, and unserious." (21:21)

• Markey on Public Health:
  "We used to average 3,000 people a year dying from polio. Now we have none... This is a candidacy, as I said, which is unserious, it's dangerous, he's unqualified." (22:45)

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III. Texas's Attempt to Enforce Abortion Bans in New York

Overview:
The podcast addresses Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton's lawsuit against New York doctor Maggie Carpenter for providing telemedicine abortion services to Texas residents, challenging the boundaries of state jurisdiction and medical practice.

Key Points:

• Legal Conflict:

  • Paxton is suing Dr. Carpenter for performing medical abortions in Texas, despite her being licensed only in New York. New York's Shield Law protects Dr. Carpenter from such interstate lawsuits (27:07).

• Governor Kathy Hochul's Response:

  • Hochul asserts that New York will defend its doctors against out-of-state interference, emphasizing state sovereignty and the protection of medical professionals (28:00).

• Impact on Telemedicine:

  • Experts highlight the importance of telemedicine in providing reproductive healthcare, especially in states with restrictive abortion laws. The lawsuit poses significant threats to the accessibility of these services (32:00).

Notable Quotes:

• Declan Walsh:
  "Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton is trying to stretch the Texas abortion ban 1,373 miles northeast of the Texas border to the state of New York." (28:41)

• Lawrence O'Donnell:
  "Doctors and healthcare providers who provide abortion and other reproductive healthcare services have been under attack... This is what the reproductive rights movement in this country was built and designed for." (35:00)

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IV. Declan Walsh's Report on Sudan's Gold-Fuezed Civil War

Overview:
Chief Africa Correspondent Declan Walsh reports on how the booming gold trade in Sudan is fueling the ongoing civil war, exacerbating humanitarian crises and perpetuating instability in the region.

Key Points:

• Gold as a War Economy:

  • The report highlights how gold smuggling and corruption have intensified the conflict between Sudan's military factions, financing ongoing hostilities and sustaining war efforts (37:00).

• Humanitarian Impact:

  • Despite the lucrative gold trade, Sudan faces severe famine and displacement, with 26 million people at risk. The gold rush contrasts starkly with the widespread suffering and infrastructure collapse (40:00).

• Foreign Influence:

  • Putin's Role: Russian interests, led by Vladimir Putin, are implicated in supporting factions within Sudan for strategic and economic gains, further complicating peace efforts (39:50).

• Environmental and Social Consequences:

  • The unchecked extraction and smuggling of gold contribute to environmental degradation and impede the country's recovery and development prospects (41:00).

Notable Quotes:

• Robert F. Kennedy Jr.:
  "This war has really pushed the country back many, many years... the gold trade in Sudan is not only back to the pre-war levels, but has exceeded it." (40:04)

• Robert F. Kennedy Jr. on Famine:
  "It's taking place against a backdrop of a spreading famine of the world's largest displacement crisis... the world's first famine in four years has been declared at a camp in Darfur." (41:36)

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Conclusion

The episode of "The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell" provides a comprehensive examination of current political and global issues, including Elon Musk's controversial security clearance, Senator Ed Markey's strong opposition to Robert F. Kennedy Jr.'s nomination, Texas's aggressive stance on abortion laws affecting New York, and Declan Walsh's in-depth reporting on Sudan's gold-fuezed civil war. Through engaging discussions and notable quotations, the podcast offers listeners a detailed understanding of these complex and impactful topics.

Transcript

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

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[Senator Ed Markey]

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[Lawrence O'Donnell]

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[Alex Wagner]

Now it's time for the Last Word with Lawrence O'Donnell. Good evening, Lawrence.

[Declan Walsh]

Good evening, Alex. We're going to take up those confirmation questions with Senator Ed Markey in just a moment here. And later in the show, we're going to be joined by Declan Walsh, who at the New York Times actually has the largest geographic jurisdiction of any reporter there. He's the chief Africa correspondent. And if I could possibly get the New York times to devote 100% of my subscription fees to Declan Walsh, that would, that would please me greatly. He really? Yeah.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Earmarks.

[Declan Walsh]

Yeah, that's right. Let's, let's earmark it.

[Alex Wagner]

He is, you want some time in the Senate? If anybody can get their subscription fears he's earmarked, it's you.

[Declan Walsh]

All right, I'm going to work on it, see what happens.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And good luck.

[Declan Walsh]

Thanks, Alex. Have a great day. Well, Donald Trump's appointment, if we can call it that, of Elon Musk to a government department that does not exist, which they are both now calling the Department of Government Efficiency, does not require Senate confirmation. If it did, Elon Musk would be asked questions about his publicly proclaimed drug use, which is one of the reasons the New York Times breaking news tonight is that Elon Musk has violated the security reporting rules for his and his company's top secret security clearance. If Elon Musk had to submit to a Senate confirmation hearing, he would be asked about an email reported by the New York Times tonight, written by Cody Miller, an Army veteran who worked on security clearances at Elon Musk's company, SpaceX. Just over a month ago, Cody Miller wrote an internal email at that company saying according to the New York Times. SpaceX has a let's push it till we are caught mentality, Mr. Miller wrote, adding that top executives followed the rules only when convenient for senior leaders. That same day, SpaceX's human resources department called Mr. Miller and pushed him to leave. Three people with knowledge of the company said Mr. Miller agreed to resign. Pete Hegseth, who still has not secured the votes to be confirmed as secretary of Defense, has promised that he will quit drinking if and only if he is sworn in as secretary of Defense. But Elon Musk has not promised to stop using drugs in violation of his top security clearance. Elon Musk had fun smoking pot on a podcast, but that was a violation of his top security clearance. Tulsi Gabbard is not even close to securing enough Republican votes to be confirmed as director of National Intelligence. Rhodey's is reporting that eight Republican senators have doubts about Tulsi Gabbard, quote, the transition team source and the source familiar with the issue said eight Republican senators harbored doubts about supporting the former lawmaker because she was unprepared to answer tough questions during an initial round of meetings last week on Capitol Hill. Her failure to address those questions sufficiently, her 2017 visit to Syria to meet then Syrian President Bashar al Assad, and her lack of significant intelligence experience fueled those concerns, the sources said. In other words, Tulsi Gabbard's meetings with senators have harmed her chances for confirmation. Not helped. It only takes four Republican senators joining with Democrats to defeat a Trump nomination in the Senate. As of now, Rhodey's reporting, eight are not there yet, not ready to vote for Tulsi Gabbard. Pete Hegseth there there's a poll on Pete Hegseth, according to a recent poll, has the support of only 17% of Americans for confirmation. That means that most Trump voters do not support Pete Hegseth for confirmation as Secretary of Defense. Most Trump voters do not want a Secretary of Defense with a drinking problem so severe that he has decided to promise to stop drinking if he gets the job. Robert Kennedy Jr. Who was a heroin addict in college, nodding off in class, didn't take a single pre med science course in college. Not one. He could not have passed a single pre med science requirement. He is the most unqualified nominee for Secretary of Health and Human Services imaginable today. Republican Senator John Kennedy of Louisiana, who is no relation to the nominee, who has not yet met with Robert Kennedy, did say something today that Robert Kennedy sharply disagrees with. The polio vaccine has saved hundreds and hundreds of millions of lives in the world. Robert Kennedy Jr. Disagrees with that completely. He says the polio vaccine has killed more people than any other vaccine. And that is a lie. That's a Kennedy lie. And now when asked about the polio vaccine in Senate hallways, Robert Kennedy Jr. Says this.

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

Mr. Kennedy, what's your position on the polio vaccine?

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Do you mind repeating what you said previously about the polio vaccine?

[Declan Walsh]

Do you support it? Yeah. Here is what Robert Kennedy said about the polio vaccine last year. There's no vaccine that is, you know, safe and effective. Big words. What about polio? Can we talk about the. Here's the problem. Here's the problem? Yes. Yeah, here's the problem. 98 million people who got that vaccine in my generation got it. And now you've had this explosion of soft tissue cancers in our generation that kill many, many, many, many, many more people than polio ever did. So if you say to me, did the, you know, the polio vaccine was effective against polio, I going to say yes. And if I say, if you say to me, did it kill more people that did it avert cause more deaths than avert, I would say, I don't know because we don't have the data on that. That uneducated buffoon did not take a single premed science course in college. He could never get through organic chemistry or inorganic chemistry. And in the class I was in with him in college, he could not keep his eyes open. I did not know then that he was a heroin addict. Every day he was in college, he has said he was a heroin addict for 14 years. And while he was a heroin addict, his powerful uncle, Senator Ted Kennedy, managed to get him a job in the Manhattan District Attorney's office. And while he was working for the Manhattan District Attorney's office, he was committing drug crimes every day for which he was finally arrested, charged and convicted. And that is who Donald Trump wants to be Secretary of Health and Human Services, A science ignoramus who was in a heroin stupor every day that he could have been studying science in college. It is no surprise that the heroin addict, convicted criminal, turned self described medical expert does not have the votes yet to be confirmed by the United States Senate. Republican Senator Mitch McConnell, himself a polio survivor who suffered from polio early in his life, issued this statement saying the polio vaccine has saved millions of lives and held out the promise of eradicating a terrible disease. Efforts to undermine public confidence in proven cures are not just uninformed, they're dangero. Robert Kennedy Jr. Has always been a danger to himself and others. In its breaking news reporting tonight, the New York Times says, quote, elon Musk and his rocket company Space X, have repeatedly failed to comply with federal reporting protocols aimed at protecting state secrets, including by not providing some details of his meetings with foreign leaders, according to people with knowledge of the company and internal documents. The Air Force also recently denied Mr. Musk a high level security access, citing potential security risks associated with the billionaire. Several allied nations, including Israel, have also expressed concerns that he could share sensitive data with others, according to defense officials. The Defense Counterintelligence and Security Agency, which is in charge of vetting individuals seeking access to classified information, took more than two years, an atypical length that was more than double the average time to approve Mr. Musk's top security clearance, three people with knowledge of the matter said. During that period, Mr. Musk was filmed on Joe Rogan's podcast Smoking Pot, which remains illegal at the federal level and is prohibited under security clearance rules. His business interests in China, where Tesla has a factory, were also a concern, the people familiar with the matter said. In August 2023m, Mr. Musk wrote on X that he took ketamine, an anesthetic with psychedelic properties. When his brain chemistry sometimes goes super negative, he has said he has a prescription for the drug. Any drug use is supposed to be disclosed to the Defense Department, but SpaceX and Mr. Musk did not report it at the time, three people with knowledge of the company said. Around that time, the air force denied Mr. Musk a high level security access, the so called special Access program status, which is reserved for extremely sensitive classified programs for people with knowledge of the rejection said. SpaceX executives assured the Defense Department that they kept Mr. Musk out of the most sensitive classified discussions, the officials said. Yet Pentagon officials remain concerned that Mr. Musk has joined some meetings where such matters were discussed, even without the special clearance, the official said. Leading off our coverage tonight is Eric Lipton, New York Times investigative reporter. Was one of the reporters on this Elon Musk. Breaking news tonight. This is such a troubling report and it seems that most of your sourcing comes from within the company.

[Eric Lipton]

There are people who are close to the company who had knowledge of his reporting and lack of reporting relative to foreign contacts that did share information with us, including one individual who you named who has since left the company. And we have an email exchange that this individual that he wrote and that's among the information that we have. But we have multiple reports from parties that are close to the company that they were concerned about whether or not Mr. Musk and others of the company were complying with something that's called continuous vetting. It's the requirement that if once you have security clearance, you have to subject yourself to continuous vetting to ensure that you are entitled to continue to have this top secret clearance.

[Declan Walsh]

Yeah, this is unusual. There's certain kinds of clearances that you can obtain where once you're vetted and you're through it, you've obtained it, and that's it. But this process of continuance, continu. Continual vetting assumes that the risks are so high with the security issues involved that there must be an ongoing continuous vetting. Which includes, by the way, as you point out, reporting drugs that you take, even if they're prescription drugs.

[Eric Lipton]

That's right. I mean, there's a bunch of things that need to be reported that's certain foreign travel and communications with certain foreign individuals and certain drug use, even prescription drugs. It's just a process of trying to be sure that there is some control over who has access to some of the most secret things in the United States government and its operations. SpaceX has billions of dollars worth of federal contracts to launch spy satellites, to launch what's called national security launches, which put dozens of different US Government satellites into orbit for a whole bunch of different purposes for missile defense, for surveillance purposes. So these are, you know, sensitive matters. And so therefore there are individuals at the company that have top secret clearances to be able to be read into those kinds of programs.

[Declan Walsh]

And one of the challenges now involving this kind of investigation and the issues of security clearances with Elon Musk is that since Donald Trump has given him some sort of position, let's call it in, which he can recommend spending cuts in the government. There are, there are some people in your reporting who indicate that they are afraid of coming forward in various ways because of the possibility of the spending cuts that could be. The government spending cuts that could be aimed at them.

[Eric Lipton]

Yeah, I was quite surprised to hear, as I engaged with people in the federal government about this, some trepidation about being publicly identified as being. Asking questions about this or investigating it or trying to determine whether or not there was proper compliance at SpaceX and there was fear that if you did that, that you could become targeted and you could be doged. You could be, you know, essentially you could become a target of an efficiency cut if you, if it was known that you were looking into this. And I was quite surprised at that. And we, you know, we've been wondering whether or not, you know, that the more than $15 billion worth of contracts that SpaceX has received over the last decade and the many, you know, matters that are being investigated by the federal government that involves SpaceX and some of the other companies that he founded, whether or not that would create a conflict of interest. But in this case, it seems clear that if there are those in the Department of Defense that are apprehensive about this, intimidated by this, then it appears that his role as the head of this efficiency effort is already, in fact, a conflict of interest.

[Declan Walsh]

And the bad news for them, the people who are concerned about the way his security clearances have been managed, is that it will next year be completely up to Donald Trump. No matter what anyone else wants to recommend or wants to say about anyone's security clearances, Donald Trump can just order that. Elon Musk is given the highest level of security clearances.

[Eric Lipton]

That's right. As the commander in chief, the president has the power to order a top secret clearance to be issued. In fact, he did that with his son in law, Jared Kushner, who struggled to get top secret clearance early in the first administration. And ultimately the president simply said, you know, he shall be granted top secret clearance so he could do his job as a, you know, Middle east advisor to the president and handling all kinds of other matters because there were concerns about his own foreign engagements that led to reluctance by the government to give him that clearance. But the president has the power to do that. And so, you know, this whole discussion is going to become somewhat moot once Trump is in office.

[Declan Walsh]

Eric Lipton, thank you for your invaluable reporting in the New York Times tonight. And thank you very much for joining our discussion.

[Eric Lipton]

Thank you. And I agree with you about Declan Walsh. He does incredible work and I would support giving him more resources.

[Declan Walsh]

Thank you very much. It's awkward to have said that and then have you as my first guest.

[Eric Lipton]

Oh, that's fine.

[Declan Walsh]

Invaluable reporting here domestically. And what Declan Walsh does, as we both know, is heroic.

[Eric Lipton]

I agree. It's very hard to get readers to read about Africa. And Declan does incredible reporting and people really should take the time to read those stories.

[Declan Walsh]

He really does. He's going to join us later. Thank you very much.

[Eric Lipton]

Great.

[Declan Walsh]

And joining our discussion now is Democratic Senator Ed Markey of Massachusetts. He's a member of the Health, Education, labor and Pensions Committee and the Commerce, Science and Transportation Committee. Senator Markey, I want to get your reaction to this New York Times reporting tonight about the Elon Musk security clearance situation, the problems that it presents right now and the foreseeable problems that it could present next year. Right.

[Senator Ed Markey]

Well, if the past is any prediction of the future, then we're going to have some problems because Twitter is under a consent decree for its violations of American privacy. NHTSA is investigating Tesla because it believes that the vehicles that Tesla has are killing people. And to compound it, as you were discussing, under this very vague set of powers which Elon Musk is going to receive as the head of the Department of Government Efficiency, he would be able to move in and ultimately create a situation where regulations which are in place in order to provide for the public health and safety to be protected could be lifted, could be removed because his past has shown that he has a disregard for regulations. And these regulations are on the books for a reason. And it's to protect public health and safety. In the instance that Mr. Lipton is investigating, it goes to our national security, the protection of our country and our well being. So we have to absolutely ensure that there are guardrails around Mr. Musk as he enters into this new world where he's in charge of the government with absolutely no regulations, no protections, no guardrails that are put around things that he can do with the information which he is able to have access to.

[Declan Walsh]

Senator Markey, please stay with us. We're going to squeeze in a commercial break here. When we come back, I want to ask you about the Kennedy nomination, the Hegseth nomination, the Gabbard nomination, the other issues facing you in the Senate confirmation process. We'll be right back.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

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[Senator Ed Markey]

Donald Trump picked Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. To lead HHS. A man who has questioned the well proven conclusion that HIV causes aids, made millions by spreading lies about vaccines, compared vaccine mandates to Nazi Germany, said wi fi and cell phones cause leaky brains, threatened to remove fluoride from drinking water and made baseless claims that medication for depression led to mass shootings. In 2019. Mr. Kennedy spread lies about the measles vaccine that contributed to a measles outbreak that killed 83 people in Samoa. Most of those were children and babies. Robert Kennedy, Jr. And his lies cost lives. He is dangerous, unqualified and unserious.

[Declan Walsh]

Back with us, Massachusetts Senator Ed Markey. Senator, that is as powerful a statement against this Kennedy nomination as I have heard going forward. What do you think the Senate needs to know about this nominee?

[Senator Ed Markey]

Well, I think that all of these questions that are being raised about vaccines and their effectiveness, which is settled science and it's why 75 Nobel Prize winners have come out in opposition to Robert Kennedy's candidacy to run hhs. If you go down the entire litany of positions which Robert Kennedy has publicly taken on these issues, he's essentially questioning everything that has happened in the last two generations that has reduced dramatically the vulnerability that not just Americans but people around the world have to polio, to Covid, to mumps, to measles, to all of these infectious diseases that had vaccines that were developed to protect them. We used to average 3,000 people a year dying from polio. Now we have none. And you could go down the list of all the rest of these diseases with the same conclusion and then multiply it by tens of thousands around the rest of the world. So this is a candidacy, as I said, which is unserious, it's dangerous. He's unqualified. You've already documented that in your opening statement, Lawrence, and it's something that actually is A distraction. We should not be talking about settled science. We should be talking about access to care for those who don't have it. We should be talking about the price of healthcare for Americans, for those who can't afford it. We should be talking about the role that private equity increasingly is playing and getting into the hospital systems of our country and looting the funding that should be in ICUs, that should be in emergency rooms. That is what we should be talking about. Instead, we're having a debate about settled science that has 75 Nobel Prize winners saying as loudly as they can to the United States Senate that it would be wrong to confirm him as the top healthcare official in our country.

[Declan Walsh]

Do you feel an extra responsibility as a senator from Massachusetts to stand against this nomination, since this nomination is before you exclusively because of his last name and his family relationship to the former President Kennedy, to his father, and to his uncle, Senator Ted Kennedy, all from Massachusetts.

[Senator Ed Markey]

You know, Lawrence, you and I, we grew up in greater Boston and we looked at Mass General, Beth Israel, the Leahy Clinic, as the center of the healthcare system for the United States and the world. Today we look at Kendall Square, where every single major biotech in the world is trying to find cures, vaccines for new diseases. So. So, yes, I take a great pride in coming from Boston. We are the healthcare capital of the United States and the world. We are the biotech capital of the world. And science is at the center of our identity. And when that science gets questioned, it goes right to the heart of what we're trying to convince hundreds of thousands of young people to consider as a career. And we cannot have someone that rather than encouraging science, defending science, we have someone attacking science and someone who should know better. So again, this just goes to what we should be focusing upon, and that is access for those who do not have it, looking at the price for people who can't afford it, and making sure that we are protecting this health system against the looting that already took place in the Massachusetts hospital system, in the steward healthcare system. The Catholic health system has gone bankrupt because of this looting. That is what we should be talking about because it is spreading across the entirety of the country. And Robert Kennedy should know better.

[Declan Walsh]

Senator Ed Markey, thank you very much for joining our discussion tonight.

[Senator Ed Markey]

Thank you.

[Declan Walsh]

Thank you. Republican Attorney General of Texas is now trying to enforce the Texas abortion ban law in New York. That's next.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

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[Declan Walsh]

One of Donald Trump's favorite lies is that everyone wanted abortion law to be left to the states. That is a Trump lie. Most Americans supported Roe vs. Wade before the Republican justices on the Supreme Court voted to overturn it, which allowed many states, including Texas, to ban abortion. And now Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton is trying to stretch the Texas abortion ban 1,373 miles northeast of the Texas border to the state of New York. The Texas Attorney General is suing New York Dr. Maggie Carpenter for providing miscarriage inducing medications to a 20 year old woman in Texas. The Texas lawsuit says that those medications, quote, resulted in a medical abortion. After Roe vs. Wade, New York State passed a law shielding all New York doctors from prosecution or from being sued in any attempt to enforce other states abortion bans against New York doctors. In response to the Texas lawsuit against Dr. Carpenter, New York Governor Kathy Hochul said, make no mistake, I will do everything in my power to enforce the laws of New York State. Drexel University law professor David Cohen, who helped draft the New York Shield law for doctors, told the New York Times, Texas has no jurisdiction over Maggie Carpenter. She is not physically present there, the courts cannot order her to do anything and they cannot get the assistance of the New York courts to order her to do anything because of the shield law. The Texas Lawsuit argues that Dr. Carpenter is not licensed to practice medicine in Texas, where doctors face $100,000 fines under the Texas abortion ban for prescribing the medications that Dr. Carpenter provided. Joining our discussion now is attorney Julie K. She's one of the three co founders of the Abortion Coalition of Telemedicine. Dr. Maggie Carpenter is also a co founder of that organization. Julie K. Is also the co author of Controlling what We Must do now to Save Reproductive Freedom. Thank you very much for joining us. So when I saw this story, I, I guess I should have known it was coming, but I didn't. You surely knew at some point Texas would try something like this.

[Alex Wagner]

Well, we weren't surprised. Texas has been very aggressive as an anti abortion state for a while now, although it's also the state that Roe vs. Wade first came out of. But you know, there's been endless attacks on access to abortion even since the fall of Roe versus Wade. And telemedicine abortion has been an increasingly popular way for women to access abortion services from a licensed practitioner using Zoom or a telephone or email to have a conversation with their doctor and get FDA certified pills sent to their homes. And so it's working, it's working, protecting women's health care. And so we're not surprised that somebody as vehemently anti abortion as Ken Paxton is trying to reach his arm up to New York and stop women from accessing doctors who care and who are providing these services?

[Declan Walsh]

There's another, there's about, I think about eight states, I guess, that also have shield laws like this for their doctors in those states, which include California, Massachusetts, some pretty big states. Do you have a sense of the scale of how many doctors have prescribed medications like this to states where those medications have in effect become illegal?

[Alex Wagner]

Well, as you said, there are eight states that have stepped up to protect telemedicine abortion and the doctors and healthcare providers within their states that are serving women in all 50 states. So a fifth of all abortions in this country right now are through telemedicine. And the estimate is that about 10,000 or more each month are to women in states that have either restricted or banned or just generally under resourced. I mean, there aren't a lot of options in a lot of clinics even before the fall of Roe throughout the United States because of domestic violence.

[Declan Walsh]

Yeah, there were places in the country where there really was no provider, any medical provider who could deal with a serious miscarriage situation or an abortion.

[Alex Wagner]

80% of the counties in the United States did not have a single abortion provider when Roe was still the law.

[Declan Walsh]

And so this kind of telemedicine was happening then in those places.

[Alex Wagner]

No, telemedicine is pretty new. It's a zoom Covid era kind of for reproductive healthcare, at least we've all sort of taken to it. I always call it sort of the modern house call. Telemedicine is used across a range of everything from dermatology and pediatricians, everybody. But there were some limitations on access to one of the medications that is vital to doing a medication portion.

[Declan Walsh]

To doctors who've been doing this prescribing and this consulting with patients, have they felt that they were at risk for this kind of lawsuit or this kind of legal approach?

[Alex Wagner]

You know, the doctors and healthcare providers who provide abortion and other reproductive healthcare services have been under attack in this country, both physically, literally, financially and harassment. They are a dedicated group of practitioners who really see access to care as a human right. So are they surprised? I mean, it's always chilling when the state is going against somebody for legal provided healthcare. But you know, this is what we were sort of built and designed for as a reproductive rights movement in this country. This is what people have been standing up for at the ballot boxes. The fact that more than half of Americans, I think the latest count was 70% believe in the Roe vs Wade framework and yet we get these anti abortion Republican state officials coming after women and their health and well being constantly. So surprise is probably not the right word. Angry, frustrated and activated and ready, it sounds like.

[Declan Walsh]

Julie K. Thank you very much for joining us tonight.

[Alex Wagner]

Thank you so much.

[Senator Ed Markey]

Thank you.

[Declan Walsh]

Coming up, how Vladimir Putin is encouraging a war in Africa, a war that has now created a famous Yemen. That's next to end the war. Follow the money. That is the advice from one non governmental leader in Sudan to understand the conflict that has led to a humanitarian disaster and a famine. That is in the deeply reported piece from the New York Times chief Africa correspondent Declan Walsh titled the Gold Rush at the heart of a civil War. Declan Walsh reports. As Sudan burns and its people starve, a gold rush is underway. War has shattered Sudan's economy, collapsed its health system and turned much of the once proud capital into piles of rubble. Fighting has also set off one of the world's worst famines in decades with 26 million people facing acute hunger or starvation. But the gold tray is humming. The production and trade of gold, which lies in rich deposits across the vast nation, has actually surpassed pre war levels. And that's just the official figure in a country rife with smuggling. In his article, Declan Walsh follows the money, or in this case, gold, that is fueling the civil war between what's left of Sudan's military forces and a paramilitary group which supports itself with money from gold, gold that is smuggled out of Sudan and which is of great interest to the war's foreign sponsors, including Russian dictator Vladimir Putin. Joining us now from Kenya is Declan Walsh, chief Africa correspondent for the New York Times. Declan, thank you for joining us once again on this subject. I know this is not easy for you to do, but I have to say I every once in a while try to explain what's going on in Sudan to people, and I find that if I get halfway through, I'm stuck and I can't quite do it. Having read your most recent piece about the complexity that gold introduces to this, I find it even more difficult to explain. There's so many levels at work here at the same time. What is the best way of putting it to people who are just coming to this subject now? Now.

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

Thank you very much, Lawrence. Look at its heart. This conflict started out with what appeared to be a fight between two generals for power, and to some degree it still is, that, as you said, there are these two groups, both of which are at the heart of the Sudanese security forces, and they seized power in a coup in 2021, and then two years later, later they went to war with each other. But the complicating factors are several fold. Firstly, as you mentioned, there is a whole host of foreign countries that have now gotten involved in this conflict and which are backing either side. And secondly, it's the stakes for those foreign powers and for the Sudanese forces that are fighting. And in this article, we principally wanted to, as used as one of the interviewees said, to follow the money to figure out what was financing the war and indirectly what was motivating some of these parties not just to start fighting, but to continue. And it became clear to us that the gold trade, which has been in fact booming in Sudan for about a decade, the country lost a lot of its oil revenues in 2011 when the south of Sudan seceded to become South Sudan. That cut about 75 of export earnings, and the government quickly turned to its other great resource, gold. So that trade has been going along, but it's been characterized by massive smuggling, massive corruption, massive official corruption. The war appeared to put a stop to it, but Very quickly it resumed. And it's now become clear that in fact, the gold trade in Sudan is not only back to the pre war levels, but has exceeded it. And it's being exploited by both sides of the war, both as a way of financing the fight, paying for the drones and some of the weapons and other elements that are used to fight this war. And it's also providing a motivation, unfortunately, for some of those foreign powers that are taking part in the war and backing either side. Those are countries like Russia, the United Arab Emirates, and indeed a host of smaller actors in countries that surround Sudan.

[Declan Walsh]

And those foreign players in this situation in your reporting don't care at all about famine in Sudan and the suffering in Sudan?

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

No, this is really the extraordinary thing about this gold rush. Effectively, it's that it's taking place against a backdrop of a spreading famine of the world's largest, largest displacement crisis. Over 11 million Sudanese have been forced from their homes by this war. That's almost a quarter of the pre war population. And these countries seem to be content to stoke the war and also to continue to exploit this gold sector across the country, even though, I mean, in some cases we. He reported about one part of Darfur, which of course is an area that you will know from where a genocide was classified 20 years ago. Darfur is also where some of the most intense fighting is taking place now. And it's an area where the. And it's an area where the famine has taken root. The world's first famine in four years has been declared at a camp in Darfur. And you, you just travel a couple of hundred miles to the south of that camp and you find this vast, secluded, but very lucrative area where the rapid support forces, one of the major protagonists in the war, the paramilitary group, they're running a massive gold operation that spread across hundreds of square miles. So it's this incredibly jarring juxtaposition of an immense production of wealth against a backdrop of incredible human suffering.

[Declan Walsh]

Declan, when we think of famine, we don't think of a country with a very rich resource like gold being extracted from the country at the same time that people are suffering like this.

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

No, it really seems very incongruous. But in fact, Sudan, even though it has an image, of course, there have been famines there before, it's a country that's been blighted by conflict for many decades. It is in fact a country that is incredibly rich in natural resources. Not only does it have gold, it has the River Nile is flowing through it. It's got immense agricultural potential as well. And these are all elements that the Sudanese were trying to marshal to turn their country around, especially in the years since 2019 when a popular uprising overthrew Omar Hassanal Bashir, the autocratic leader of three decades. And this war now, unfortunately, has really pushed the country back many, many years, and if not destroyed a lot of that potential, then it has certainly eroded it greatly. And as we see in the case of gold, it's being misused as a factor in continuing the war.

[Declan Walsh]

New York Times chief Africa correspondent Declan Walsh, thank you very much for your invaluable reporting and thank you for joining us.

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

Thank you, Lawrence.

[Declan Walsh]

Thank you. Tonight's Last Word is next. This afternoon, a week before Christmas Eve, the one and only Andy Cohen took time out from preparing for his show tonight on Bravo to ask a great question on social media. He said, I'm working on my end of year charitable donations. What are your favorite charities you think I should know about? And before I even knew Andy had asked that question, several of you replied, like Jen on the Block 7 and Becky, who told Andy Cohen, please consider the Kind Fund. C. Bell replied To Andy, Lawrence O'Donnell's kind fund provides desks to children's schools in Malawi and scholarships for girls to complete high school. And then I eventually chimed in, alerting Andy to kids in need of desks and giving him the link so that he could go straight to lastworddesks.msnbc.com and help to provide desks to schools in Malawi where the students have never seen desks, and scholarships for girls to attend high school in Malawi where public high school is not free and the girls high school graduation rate is less than half the boys high school graduation. Right? Once again this year you have already responded with enormous generosity this holiday season. Maya posted. My best friend, My mom passed away from cancer this summer. She always loved your show and because she was a special education teacher, the Kind Fund this year a donation will be in her memory. You can make a donation in the name of anyone on your holiday gift list and we will send them an acknowledgement of your gift. Braxton posted. I donated to Kind again this year. I love the cause. Michael posted. This is our favorite holiday charity to support. Thanks to everyone who alerted Andy Cohen to the Kind Fund today and thanks to Andy Cohen for helping us get a bit more attention online today for kids in need of desks and girls in need of scholarships and the partnership that I created with MSNBC and UNICEF to provide desks and scholarships to those kids. Thanks entirely to your continuing kindness and generosity.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Parents, did you know that only 50% of US adults are financially literate? Millions of people don't fully understand how to manage money and it's up to you to not let your kids grow up into that statistic. With Greenlight's educational money app and parent controlled debit card, you can teach them how to earn, save and invest wisely. The earlier they learn, the better prepared they'll be to manage their money and build a financially secure life. Give your kids the financial edge they need. Sign up for Greenlight [e-mail] podcast. That's Greenlight.com com podcast.