Lawrence: Trump reveals he’s considering pardoning convicted sex trafficker Ghislaine Maxwell

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell

Episode: "Lawrence: Trump reveals he’s considering pardoning convicted sex trafficker Ghislaine Maxwell"

Date: October 7, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode, hosted by Lawrence O’Donnell, delivers a scathing analysis of the latest political controversies surrounding Donald Trump, with a sharp focus on Trump’s comments about potentially pardoning convicted sex trafficker Ghislaine Maxwell. Drawing on O’Donnell’s political expertise and scriptwriting background, the episode dissects the media’s handling of Trump interviews, the failings of current political discourse, reactions to the Supreme Court’s rejection of Maxwell’s appeal, and the implications for survivors and the broader public. The discussion is enriched by insights from Congressman Robert Garcia, Senator Sheldon Whitehouse, and Congresswoman Suzanne DelBene.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Crash of the Sunday Morning Interview (00:59–12:37)

• O’Donnell’s Critique of TV Interviews with Trump: O’Donnell lambasts Sunday morning news shows for their failure to extract substantive answers from Trump, mocking the phenomenon of “text-based interviews” where Trump (or someone representing him) responds in writing, with unclear attribution and unknown timeframes.

• Quote (O’Donnell, 01:39):
  “Nothing has damaged the genre more than the Donald Trump Sunday morning interview…Not one moment in the Sunday morning interviews had the slightest impact on the presidential campaign. Every one of them was a failure, a complete failure.”

• O’Donnell ridicules CNN for accepting written replies from Trump with no transparency about response times or questions unanswered, highlighting the decline in interview standards.

• On Trump’s “Complete Obliteration” Statement:
  Trump’s written reply to a question about Hamas, “complete obliteration,” is cited as an example of unhinged and reckless rhetoric that goes unchallenged.

• Quote (O’Donnell, 06:29):
  “If Joe Biden had ever given the answer, ‘complete obliteration’…that same interviewer would have pointed to it — correctly, I think — as proof of mental incapacity to do the job of president.”

2. Supreme Court Rejects Maxwell Appeal & Trump Considers Pardon (12:37–20:36)

• SCOTUS Denies Ghislaine Maxwell’s Appeal:
  O’Donnell explains that Maxwell’s last avenue out of prison now lies with a presidential pardon.

• Pivotal White House Q&A (12:48–13:35):

  • CNN’s Kaitlan Collins asks Trump if he’d consider a pardon for Maxwell. Trump feigns forgetfulness but repeatedly says he’ll “take a look at it,” never firmly ruling out the idea.
  • Quote (Trump, 12:52; 13:04):
    • “You know, I haven’t heard the name in so long. I can say this — that I’d have to take a look at it.”
    • “Well, I’ll take a look at it. I’ll speak to…I will speak to the DOJ. I wouldn’t consider it or not consider it. I don’t know anything about it. But I’ll speak… I’ll speak to the DOJ.”
  • When pressed that Maxwell was convicted of child sex trafficking:
    • Quote (Trump, 13:28): “Yeah, I mean, I’m going to have to take a look at it. I have to ask DOJ.”

• O’Donnell’s Response:
  O’Donnell highlights the moral and logical absurdity of Trump’s answer, questioning why a president would need to “look into” such a conviction if not for personal connections.

  • Quote (O’Donnell, 13:35):
    “Frankly, I wouldn’t consider it or not consider it. That’s the kind of gibberish that comes out of his mouth all the time. That’s impossible. You have to do one or the other.”

• Victim Voices & Justice System Failures:
  O’Donnell quotes the judge and survivors, notably Virginia Giuffre’s harrowing statement, underscoring the severity of Maxwell’s crimes.

  • Quote (O’Donnell, 16:10):
    “…you [Maxwell] deserve to spend the rest of your life in prison, in a jail cell. You deserve to be trapped in a cage — forever. Just like you trapped your victims.”
  • Giuffre’s family and Democratic leaders are cited, pushing for Maxwell to serve her full sentence and decrying political interference in her case.

3. Congressional Response & Pursuit of Accountability (20:36–24:55)

• Rep. Robert Garcia on Maxwell Testimony:
  Garcia voices outrage at Trump’s comments and details congressional steps to bring Maxwell before the House Oversight Committee. He blasts Republican delays and pledges to press Maxwell for the full truth regarding other abusers.

  • Quote (Garcia, 20:50):
    “…just how outrageous it was for Donald Trump…to even somehow lean into the idea of a pardon for a convicted sexual trafficker…”

• Public Demand for Truth:
  O’Donnell highlights polling indicating massive bipartisan demand (over 80% across party lines) for the release of the Epstein files.

4. Trump’s Attacks on James Comey and the Justice System (25:59–29:46)

• Trump’s Efforts to Prosecute James Comey:
  Amid Trump’s public smears and attempts to push prosecution, Senator Whitehouse explains the dangers of prejudicing potential jurors and undermining judicial norms.
  • Quote (Sen. Whitehouse, 27:33):
    “…for a guy who claims not to know much about the case, he actually said that he knew specifically what the lie was…It tracks through to the jury selection process where it’s going to be harder for the government to pull together a jury…”

5. Health Care & Republican Policy Failures (31:19–33:45)

• Healthcare Misinformation:
  Trump claims he wants health care improvements more than Democrats. O’Donnell and Senator Whitehouse refute this, detailing the administration’s ignorance about the impacts of their policies, especially on red states.
  • Quote (Sen. Whitehouse, 31:50):
    “No, that would not be the case…he didn’t seem to understand that the Affordable Care benefits were about to go away…”

6. Election Politics & the Shutdown (35:42–41:36)

• Trump’s Role in Government Shutdowns and State Hostility:
  O’Donnell and guests discuss Trump’s efforts to halt major infrastructure projects in states that voted against him and his attempts to politicize local campaigns (e.g., New Jersey’s governor race).

• Voter Sentiment:
  Polls show the public blames Trump for the shutdown; Congresswoman DelBene argues these actions are directly harming working families, especially in rural areas.

  • Quote (DelBene, 38:05):
    “…he doubles down on figuring out ways to hurt people across the country if he doesn’t get his way…”

• Concerns About Voter Intimidation:
  O’Donnell raises concerns (echoing Gov. Pritzker) that Trump may use federal troops to intimidate voters in the next election, as a sign of escalating authoritarian tactics.

  • Quote (DelBene, 40:44):
    “…you figure out other ways to rig the system, like gerrymandering…or fear and intimidation, which is what he’s been doing.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Nothing has damaged the genre more than the Donald Trump Sunday morning interview.” – Lawrence O’Donnell (00:59)
• “You know, I haven’t heard the name in so long, I can say this—that I’d have to take a look at it.” – Donald Trump, on potentially pardoning Ghislaine Maxwell (12:52)
• “…the answer, ‘complete obliteration’…if Joe Biden had ever given [that] answer…that same interviewer would have pointed to it…as proof of mental incapacity…” – Lawrence O’Donnell (06:29)
• “…you [Maxwell] deserve to spend the rest of your life in prison, in a jail cell…Just like you trapped your victims.” – Survivor statement read by O’Donnell (16:10)
• “…why is Ghislaine Maxwell the only person right now sitting in a prison? What about all of the powerful men…the pedophiles that are walking the streets…no accountability?” – Rep. Robert Garcia (22:17)
• “He doubles down on figuring out ways to hurt people…if he doesn’t get his way.” – Rep. Suzanne DelBene (38:05)

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Important Timestamps

• 00:59–03:42 – O’Donnell critiques TV journalism’s failures in Trump coverage
• 03:42–07:00 – CNN’s written interview with Trump and its limitations
• 12:37–13:35 – Trump’s comments on possibly pardoning Ghislaine Maxwell
• 16:10 – Virginia Giuffre’s victim impact statement read aloud
• 20:36–24:55 – Congressman Garcia on congressional pursuit of Maxwell testimony and Epstein files
• 27:33–29:46 – Senator Whitehouse on Trump’s targeting of James Comey
• 31:19–33:45 – Trump’s healthcare claims debunked
• 35:42–41:36 – Trump’s influence on state politics and fears of voter intimidation

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Tone and Language

The tone throughout is acerbic, passionate, and deeply skeptical of both Trump and the media’s handling of him. Lawrence O’Donnell employs his signature blend of sarcasm, pointed commentary, and policy expertise. Congressional guests speak in direct, urgent terms, emphasizing accountability and justice for survivors.

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Conclusion

This explosive episode of The Last Word provides a critical, unflinching look at Donald Trump’s public statements, the crumbling of press standards, and the enduring fight for accountability in the wake of the Epstein/Maxwell scandal. It explores the intersection of media, justice, and politics, concluding with a strong call—echoed by poll numbers and congressional leaders—for transparency, survivor justice, and the defense of American democracy.

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Transcript

[Host/Anchor]

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[Host/Anchor]

Well, the art of the Sunday morning interview reached a new dark low yesterday. Nothing has damaged the genre more than the Donald Trump Sunday morning interview. Donald Trump just desecrated that Sunday morning TV liturgy when he turned to politics. Donald Trump knows that the most important thing on commercial television is of course the commercial. The commercials are those immovable granite blocks that frame every television discussion. And Donald Trump knew that all he had to do to beat every Sunday morning TV interviewer at the game was to keep spewing nonsense until the so called interview would crash into that immovable object. The TV commercial and the interviewer would be out of time and the interviewer would lose once again. When Donald Trump became a presidential candidate, he quickly became the most valuable Sunday morning guest one of those shows could have because the show that had Donald Trump that weekend would win the ratings race that weekend. And so the desperation to book Donald Trump knew no bounds. Donald Trump smelled that deprivation, deprivation, desperation and used it to become the first guest in the history of those shows to literally phone it in. Donald Trump became the first Sunday morning guest who didn't have to show up. We don't know if he was in pajamas when he was doing those phone interviews on the Sunday morning shows during his first presidential campaign. But we do know that we learned absolutely nothing from any one of those interviews, so called interviews of Donald Trump. Every one of them was a failure, a complete failure. Not one moment in the Sunday morning interviews had the slightest impact on the presidential campaign. Donald Trump has become harder to get on Sunday morning, but the desperation remains and I guess deepens. And so yesterday morning CNN presented a so called interview with CNN that they can't even prove was Donald Trump. They called it breaking news. They called it, quote, an exclusive new interview with President Trump. That's what they called it. Before the interviewer said this.

[Congressman Robert Garcia]

The President answered my questions on text about his hopes for this nascent deal.

[Host/Anchor]

What? You gave him the questions in writing. So now instead of letting Trump hide in a phone call where we can at least know that it's him talking, Donald Trump gets to hide behind the black screen of texting. We actually have no idea who texted the replies in that so called interview. CNN is unable to prove that Donald Trump was actually doing that texting. CNN has not revealed how long it took to get a reply to each of the five written questions that apparently got replies from someone who texted those replies or someone who told Donald Trump what to text in those replies. Or maybe, maybe it was from Donald Trump. The first question was what happens if Hamas insists on staying in power in Gaza? To which the text reply, we don't know how long this took and we don't know who did it. The text reply says complete obliteration. The final slow pitch softball question was how do you think the government shutdown is going to end? That question got the empty answer it deserved. Someone texted this reply as an answer to that question of how the shutdown is going to end. Good. We are winning and cutting costs big time. Exclamation point. The interviewer then said, I asked a few other questions on text. Still waiting for a response on those, Mr. President. Okay, what were those questions exactly? Which questions did Donald Trump refuse to answer? What could be more relevant in reporting an exchange than that is supposed to be with the President of the United States than including the questions he refused to answer? We have no idea. Any questions about Jeffrey Epstein or his sex trafficking friend Elaine Maxwell? Any questions about Jeffrey Epstein's co conspirator Elaine Maxwell? We don't know. We have no idea. We have no idea what the other questions were that Donald Trump refused to answer or whoever was on the other end of that phone refused to answer. When the history of Donald Trump's mental decline is written, it will no doubt include that so called interview yesterday as a turning point in Donald Trump's White House dealing with the challenge of Donald Trump trying to answer questions. During this period of obvious mental decline for Donald Trump, Donald Trump was allowed to become by CNN the first president in history to get questions in writing for an interview. Questions that he could take home as it were, since he was at home. Questions from a reporter and then Donald Trump was allowed to take. We don't know how much time to reply to those questions. We do know CNN is still waiting for some of them. Something this particular interview would be outraged about. If Joe Biden had ever done that, or someone pretending to be Joe Biden had done that. This particular interviewer wrote an entire book condemning Joe Biden because he didn't like the way Joe Biden answered questions. He thought Joe Biden wasn't up to the job of answering questions as a presidential candidate, particularly in the presidential debate. But in fact, every one of the answers that Joe Biden did give in that presidential debate in content was better than every answer given by Donald Trump, all of which were insane. But this same interviewer apparently thinks Donald Trump is capable of answering such questions. This same interviewer has never doubted that if Joe Biden had had ever given the answer, quote, complete obliteration, end quote, to what happens next in Gaza or anywhere else in the world, that same interviewer would have pointed to it correctly, I think as proof of mental incapacity to do the job of president. But Donald Trump or the person playing Donald Trump in that text game yesterday took the time to carefully type out complete obliteration. It wasn't a quick and ill considered reply, it was a carefully typed and written reply. A written reply. And in a world where, as Wall street puts it, on the illegal Trump tariffs, Trump always chickens out, anything Donald Trump says in response to a what if question is always meaningless. And so the insane and reckless, reckless and inhuman phrase complete obliteration is also actually meaningless because Donald Trump said it or the person playing Donald Trump in that text game typed it in the Sunday morning interview business. And it is a business. Every time they lower their standards for Donald Trump, that becomes the new standard. And so the other Sunday morning shows desperate to get Donald Trump will according to all their past practices in following each other into decline, except written answers from Donald Trump or a person impersonating Donald Trump in reply to their written questions to Donald Trump. And they won't tell us how long it takes Donald Trump or his stand in to deliver those answers. And they won't tell us what questions Donald Trump or his stand in refuses to answer. The deviancy of Donald Trump only moves in one direction down. People working for Donald Trump choose to go down with him. But apparently they're not the only ones. The White House press corps did their usual good question, bad question routine today. And as a group, they once again failed to exhibit that they know what a tariff is. In the Oval Office surrounded by reporters today, Donald Trump said, quote, I use tariffs to stop wars, end quote. And not one reporter challenged that madness in any way. Donald Trump also said this about tariffs. Quote, we make, you know, hundreds of billions of dollars, end quote. And the next question after he said that did not involve a reporter pointing out to the president that every single penny that is collected by the United States treasury in tariffs is paid by Americans inside this country. Instead, the next question was the utterly pointless, how long do you expect this shutdown to go? That was it. Which got a bunch of words about crime in Chicago, in Portland, and nothing about the shutdown, because that's the way it goes when they question Donald Trump. The Trump Supreme Court does appear to do everything it possibly can for Donald Trump, but that is not necessarily the Trump Supreme Court's policy for Donald Trump's friends. Today, Donald Trump's old friend, convicted sex trafficker Ghislaine Maxwell, did not get the Trump treatment in the United States Supreme Court today. Ghislaine Maxwell got what over 90% of litigants that go to the Supreme Court get nothing, not even a hearing, not even a sentence. The name of her appeals case, Maxwell v. The United States, appeared in a list of 900 other cases that the Supreme Court refused to hear today. That is what happens to most people who try to bring their case to the Supreme Court. They don't get in the door. And so Ghislaine Maxwell has only one hope left of getting out of prison. Her old friend Donald Trump. And today, CNN's White House correspondent Kaitlan Collins asked the best question of the day, which revealed that Donald Trump will consider pardoning his old friend, the sex trafficker.

[Guest/Political Commentator]

The Supreme Court is back and they rejected today an appeal by Ghislaine Maxwell to overturn her conviction. That means her only chance of getting out of prison is a pardon from you. Is that something you're.

[Donald Trump]

Who are we talking about?

[Guest/Political Commentator]

Ghislaine Maxwell?

[Donald Trump]

You know, I haven't heard the name in so long, I can say this that I'd have to take a look at it. I would have to take a look. Did they reject that she wanted to.

[Guest/Political Commentator]

Appeal her conviction and what happened? They were not going to hear her appeal.

[Host/Anchor]

I see.

[Donald Trump]

Well, I'll take a look at it. I'll speak to. I will speak to the doj. I wouldn't consider it or not consider. I don't know anything about it, so. But I'll speak. I will speak to the doj. I don't know. I mean, I'd have to speak to the doj. I'll look at it. I'll.

[Host/Anchor]

I have.

[Donald Trump]

A lot of people have asked me for pardons. I call him Puff Daddy has asked me for a pardon.

[Guest/Political Commentator]

But she was convicted of child sex trafficking.

[Donald Trump]

Yeah, I mean, I'm going to have to take a look at it. I have to ask doj. I didn't know they rejected it. I didn't know she was even asking for it.

[Host/Anchor]

Frankly, I wouldn't consider it or not. Considerate. That's the kind of gibberish that comes out of his mouth all the time. That's impossible. You have to do one or the other. You have to consider it or not consider it. You can't do both. But that's what he says and that's what they think are answers. I'll look at it. He said, I'll look at it. I'll look at it. But she was convicted of child sex trafficking. Yeah. I mean, I'm going to have to take a look at it. Why? Because she's an old friend. Because she told your former criminal defense lawyer in that phony so called interview that he did with her that you're okay. That you, Donald Trump, she never witnessed doing anything wrong. She's the same person who said she never witnessed Jeffrey Epstein doing anything wrong. So after that sequence of questions, Donald Trump then turned to a reporter who he correctly bet would change the subject, and that reporter changed the subject for him because that's the way it works with the White House press corps. So when you look at it, Donald, be sure to read the sentencing hearing transcript, which is the only time your old dear friend Ghislaine Maxwell spoke in court. And she never denied the charges that she was convicted of. In that one opportunity she to speak in court. If Donald Trump ever could summon the discipline to read the sentencing hearing transcript, which we know he won't, he would find the judge in full agreement with the jury's verdict that Ghislaine Maxwell was indeed guilty beyond a reasonable doubt of sex trafficking. The judge said the crimes for which I sentenced Ms. Maxwell today are the crimes for which a jury convicted her of committing following trial. I do want to emphasize that today the sentence is based entirely on those crimes and the harm done to those victims of those charged and proved crimes. The evidence at trial established that Ms. Maxwell directly and repeatedly and over the course of many years participated in a horrific scheme to entice, transport and traffic underage girls, some as young as 14 for sexual abuse by and with Jeffrey Epstein. I will pause in those words for a moment by and with Epstein. It is important at the outset to emphasize that although Epstein was of course, central to this criminal scheme, Ms. Maxwell is not being punished in place of Epstein or as a proxy for Epstein. Like every other participant in a multi defendant case, Ms. Maxwell is being punished for the role that she played in. In the criminal conduct. As to that role, the trial evidence established that Ms. Maxwell was instrumental in the abuse of several underage girls and that she herself participated in some of the abuse. And it is her conduct for which she has been convicted in the court under the laws of this country. And it is her conduct for which she must be held accountable. And we know when Donald Trump pretends to look at it, he won't read what Virginia Giuffre, a victim of Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell, who took her own life earlier this year, said at the sentencing hearing. Virginia Giuffre could not bring herself to actually speak that day. Instead, her lawyer read a statement that said, in part, Ghislaine, 22 years ago, in the summer of 2000, you spotted me at Mar a Lago in Florida and you made a choice. You chose to follow me and procure me for Epstein. Just hours later, you and he abused me together for the first time. Together, you damaged me physically, mentally, sexually and emotionally. Together, you did unthinkable things that still have a corrosive impact on me to this day. I want to be clear about one thing. Without question. Jeffrey Epstein was a terrible pedophile. But I never would have met Jeffrey Epstein if not for you. For me, and for so many others, you opened the door to hell. And then, Ghislaine, like a wolf in sheep's clothing, you used your femininity to betray us. And you led us all through it. You could have put an end to the rapes, the molestation, the sickening manipulation that you arranged, witnessed, and even took part in. You could have called the authorities and reported that you were part of something awful. Ghislaine, the pain you have caused me is almost indescribable because of your choices and the world you brought me into. I don't sleep. Nightmares wake me at all hours. In those dreams, I relived the awful things that you and others did to me and the things that you forced me to do. Those memories will never go away. Ghislaine, you deserve to spend the rest of your life in prison, in a jail cell. You deserve to be trapped in a cage Forever. Just like you trapped your victims. And today, Virginia Giuffre's family said in a statement, quote, we, the family of Virginia Roberts Giuffre, are grateful to the Supreme Court for denying Ghislaine Maxwell's appeal to invalidate her conviction. We are committed to ensuring that convicted child sex trafficker Maxwell serves out the entirety of her 20 year sentence in prison, where she belongs. We remain hopeful that the DOJ will realize that she belongs in a maximum security prison, not the country club one she is currently in. The first human trafficker ever to have been afforded that privilege. Today, the top Democrat on the House Oversight Committee, Robert Garcia, issued this statement after the Supreme Court refused to hear Ghislaine Maxwell's appeal. Maxwell helped lead the Epstein sex trafficking ring and was directly involved in the abuse of women and children. The Trump administration's ongoing effort to pressure Maxwell into aiding their cover up, including arranging an interview with Donald Trump's former attorney, Todd Blanche, is outrageous and shameful. Maxwell has been subpoenaed by the Oversight Committee and must now answer our questions truthfully. And leading off our discussion tonight is Democratic Congressman Robert Garcia of California. He's the top Democrat on the House Oversight Committee. Thank you very much for joining us tonight. Congressman Garcia, where does your opportunity to get testimony from Ghislaine Maxwell stand tonight?

[Congressman Robert Garcia]

Well, first, let me just say that we're obviously very encouraged by the decision of the Supreme Court to not hear the appeal. Absolutely the right decision. And I just want to add just how outrageous it was for Donald Trump in today's White House interview that he had with the press to even somehow lean into the idea of a pardon for a convicted sexual trafficker who herself abused underage girls, walk them to Jeffrey Epstein's home, where they continue to get more abuse. And I've heard from numerous survivors of both Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell who are just outraged at the treatment she is getting by the DOJ and by being moved to that facility that she's currently in. So just what's happening right now in this cover up should. Every American should be upset and enraged by it. As for what's next, Ghislaine Maxwell now has a responsibility to come in front of the Oversight Committee and answer our questions. Chairman Comer has agreed to bring her in. Her legal team, who we've also been in communication with, are very aware that she has to come in front of us. And that date is now being set. And so this is a conversation that we should have had, as you know, months ago. She should have been answering our questions months ago, but the Republicans decided to delay that for this appeal process. Well, that appeal process is now over. And you can bet that we have a lot of questions for Ghislaine Maxwell.

[Host/Anchor]

And she would have the Fifth Amendment available to her if she testifies to the committee, wouldn't she?

[Congressman Robert Garcia]

She would, but we expect her to, to answer our questions. At the end of the day, she has appeared to be interested in getting her story out there. Well, she has an ability now to talk to the Oversight Committee and to share with us what actually happened during those horrific years and who all the men that were involved in the abuse actually were. Why is it that Ghislaine Maxwell is the only person right now sitting in a prison where about all of the powerful men that abused and raped underage girls? What about the pedophiles that are walking the streets of the United States of America with no accountability to the survivors to the abuse that happened? And we don't care how rich they are, how much wealth have accumulated positions of power that they have, they have to be held accountable. So we want to ask Ms. Maxwell the tough questions and understand, by the way, which we do, that she absolutely wants a pardon from Donald Trump. We get that is probably at the center of her desire, but the questions need to be asked.

[Host/Anchor]

So I'm going to bring up the polling on this because it's really quite striking. It's maybe the thing in America that gets more agreement in polling than anything else. A new Marist poll showing 77% want release of the Epstein files. And the really striking number in there. So 84% of Democrats, 83% of independents, but 67% of Republicans want what 84% of Democrats want. I'm not sure we could find that on any other issue.

[Congressman Robert Garcia]

That's exactly right. And look, we're right now in the middle of this shutdown that Donald Trump and Republicans have created. And look, let's be honest, there's absolutely a fight going on about health care. But let's be really clear. Mike Johnson does not want to have the conversation about Epstein. He does not want to bring Congress back. He does not want our investigation to continue. He doesn't even want to seat a Democrat who has now won a seat in Congress because he knows it's the final vote needed to actually get a law out the door that demands a full release of the files. And they don't want to stop the shutdown because they don't want to talk about the Epstein files. The American public are demanding the Truth and Answers. Now, I will be in D.C. tomorrow. A bunch of us will be there demanding that they not only reopen the government, but the DOJ fully released what they're under right now ordered to do. Just get us the files in their possession. It will continue to bring pressure to Mike Johnson and the president that they have the power the DOJ has right now to release the files.

[Host/Anchor]

Congressman Robert Garcia, thank you very much for leading off our discussions tonight. And coming up, Donald Trump cannot find federal prosecutors willing to prosecute her former FBI Director James Comey, because they don't think he committed any crimes. And so Donald Trump himself is trying to prosecute James Comey in ways that only help James Comey's defense. Senator Sheldon Whitehouse will join us next. Donald Trump continues to do what no other president in history has ever done. He tells potential jurors who is guilty before they're chosen for a jury in this case, the jury that might hear the case against former FBI Director James Comey, if that case ever makes it to trial. Not only is Donald Trump telling potential jurors that James Comey is guilty, but everything Donald Trump says about that and everything you are about to hear is a lie.

[Guest/Political Commentator]

Are you worried that your own statements calling for his prosecution could help him actually in his defense of this case?

[Donald Trump]

No, I think he's a crooked guy. He's a dirty cop. Comey, I think he's a dirty cop. He's recognized by many people to be a dirty cop and dishonest guy. So all I have to do is, I mean, I have nothing to do with the case. I just say.

[Guest/Political Commentator]

But you called Yamandi to prosecute him and.

[Donald Trump]

No, no, I don't call anybody. You know what, I'm allowed to do that if I wanted to do that. But Comey's a crooked guy. He has been for years. And he got caught. Look, he lied. This is just a simple case. He totally lied. And then he confirmed the lie. On, I guess, numerous occasions or at least one occasion, he confirmed the lie. He said, that's what I said, and I stand by it. And, you know, I mean, the guy. And he didn't say, to the best of my knowledge, he didn't say, well, I don't remember. He made a very definitive statement and a very important statement concerning him, and he got caught in an outright lie.

[Host/Anchor]

And that, of course, that you just heard is an outright lie. Joining us now is Democratic Senator Sheldon Whitehouse of Rhode Island. He's a member of the Senate Judiciary Committee. Senator, it may be that Donald Trump knows how weak a case it is against Jim Comey and he wants him to get off, as it were, through pre trial motions about prejudicial, pretrial publicity or select a prosecution or something like that. It's Donald Trump's relentless attempt here to interfere with the case is something like we've never seen.

[Senator Sheldon Whitehouse]

Well, first of all, note that for a guy who claims not to know much about the case, he actually said that he knew specifically what the lie was. So he's way closer to a traditional false statement or perjury prosecution than a normal president would be. So that's something to bear in mind as you think of how this tracks through into the Comey prosecution. It tracks through to the jury selection process where it's going to be harder for the government to pull together a jury. You can always end up doing it, but it makes it more difficult when there's been this much adverse pretrial publicity. It's not a case where you can move it to another district because the president's noise goes nationwide. And the second is, you know, I got, I got no admiration for James Comey, but I've got a lot of admiration for his lawyer, a guy named Patrick Fitzgerald, who is a very, very capable, experienced guy who knows the inner workings of the department, how things should and shouldn't go. So he will be able to put together a case on vindictive and unjustified prosecution that will go all the way from the newly minted U.S. attorney purpose appointed to do this case after all the grownups in the office said it was not a legitimate case, all the way up through the Department of Justice, through Attorney General Bondi, and to the President.

[Host/Anchor]

So.

[Senator Sheldon Whitehouse]

Trump may here have set in motion a cataclysm for himself as this case gets torn to pieces by Jim Comey's able lawyers.

[Host/Anchor]

Senator, please stay with us. We're going to squeeze in a commercial break here. When we come back, I want you to respond to Donald Trump's newest lie about health care. He said it today. I'll be back with Senator Sheldon Whitehouse.

[Commercial Announcer]

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[Host/Anchor]

Imagine relying on a dozen different software programs to run your business, none of which are connected and each one more.

[Senator Sheldon Whitehouse]

Expensive and more complicated than the last.

[Host/Anchor]

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[Host/Anchor]

Today, the man who tried to repeal Obamacare told this lie.

[Donald Trump]

I'd like to see a deal made for great health care. Yeah, I want to see great health. I'm a Republican, but I want to see health care much more so than the Democrats.

[Host/Anchor]

Democratic Senator Sheldon Whitehouse over on is back with us. Senator, is that what Chuck Schumer reported back from his White House meeting with Donald Trump? That Donald Trump, let me get this straight, wants to see health care much more than the Democrats?

[Senator Sheldon Whitehouse]

No, that would, that would not be the case. What he did report back was how surprised Trump seemed to be at what was coming. He didn't seem to understand that the Affordable Care benefits were about to go away, that people were going to start getting notices essentially now and having to make decisions based on potentially doubling their health care costs. That many, if not most of the recipients of these benefits lived in red states. People like farmers and small businessmen who run their own shops and can't get a big, you know, deal through the corporate entity that they work for. They're the ones who are doing the best through the Affordable Care benefit. So he didn't seem to have any clue at all. And of course, when you look at who wants to get something done here, the House has been gone for more than two weeks. I don't know if they're hiding out from Epstein votes or they're hiding out from this. They're not even in town. The Senate just cleared out for the weekend. Rather than negotiate with us to go down and do a big fancy fundraiser at a coastal resort. So there is literally no sign anywhere you look about Republican leadership in either House having the slightest interest in doing any negotiating. And the president barely knows what's going on. So that's one of the reasons we're standing firm trying to get them to pay attention to this. And sure, what's happening with the rank and file is that rank and file senators starting to say, and House members, I should add, starting to say, oh my gosh, this is really bad for us. Somebody better start negotiating with the Democrats. But that has not filtered up to the speaker. That has not filtered up to the majority leader. And it certainly isn't something the president is aware of.

[Host/Anchor]

We await the Trump offer on health care. Senator Sheldon Whitehouse, thank you very much for joining us tonight. Of course. And coming up, 29 days until election Day and Donald Trump has made himself the top issue in most campaigns. That's next. Imagine relying on a dozen different software programs to run your business, none of which are connected and each one more.

[Senator Sheldon Whitehouse]

Expensive and more complicated than the last.

[Host/Anchor]

It can be pretty strange. Now imagine Odoo. Odoo has all the programs you'll ever need and are all connected on one platform. Doesn't Odoo sound amazing? Let Odoo harmonize your business with simple, efficient software that can handle everything for a fraction of the price. Sign up [e-mail] that's o d o o dot com.

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[Host/Anchor]

Donald Trump is now the issue in the campaign for governor of New Jersey. The Republican candidate for govern, Jack Ciartarelli, has found no fault with Donald Trump for the shutdown and has no complaint about Donald Trump trying to cancel the construction of an important new tunnel under the Hudson river connecting New Jersey and New York to the benefit of everyone in New Jersey. The Democratic candidate for governor, Mikey Sherrill, said this about her Republican opponent's defense of Donald Trump.

[Guest/Political Commentator]

He doesn't know who to blame for the shutdown because he hasn't been paying attention. And he believes freezing Gateway funding isn't Jersey problem. So on behalf of the nearly 1 million commuters across our state, 200,000 of whom travel through the tunnel each and every day, I'll be very clear. I see this as a New Jersey problem. And I'll see Trump in court if he continues to freeze these funds. And I'll stop at nothing to get this project done for all New Jerseyans.

[Host/Anchor]

Donald Trump is canceling other projects in other states, states that didn't vote for him, including 223 clean energy projects in California, Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, Hawaii, Illinois, Maryland, Massachusetts, Minnesota, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, Oregon, Vermont, and Washington state, 16 states that voted for Kamala Harris in the last election. Our next guest, Congresswoman Suzanne Delbene, represents Washington State, where Donald Trump has canceled over $1 billion in funding for 11 energy and manufacturing projects, including the Pacific Northwest Hydrogen Hub. It's one of seven region hubs across the country funded by the Biden infrastructure law to produce clean hydrogen from renewable energy sources like wind and hydropower to fuel trucks, ships and factories across the region. The Pacific Northwest Hydrogen Hub was expected to create more than 10,000 jobs. And joining us now is Democratic Congresswoman Suzanne Delbene of Washington. She is chair of the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee. And Donald Trump. Donald Trump has apparently inserted himself in these campaigns now in such a way that it is obvious that he is the number one issue in New Jersey and in other what I assume would be congressional elections in those districts we just mentioned.

[Guest/Political Commentator]

Well, I think we're seeing exactly who Donald Trump is. Instead of doing things to help people, to help communities across the country, he doubles down on figuring out ways to hurt people across the country if he doesn't get his way. And, you know, many parts of that were areas where he's taking money away. Many of these are rural areas in our country where these jobs are critically important. He doesn't really care who he's impacting. He's hurting working families across the country. And this goes on top of raising tariffs, raising costs, gutting health care. It's all about how cruel he can be, as opposed to what Democrats are doing, which are fighting to help working families across this country.

[Host/Anchor]

In your experience, is, is the message getting through. We have polling indicating that, for example, 47% blame the current shutdown on Donald Trump, 30% blame that on Democrats. So that's a big, very significant gap in that poll. Is that going to be a serious factor a year from now?

[Guest/Political Commentator]

Well, it's a serious factor right now and will continue to be. The number one issue for families across the country is that costs have gone up. It's becoming more and more expensive just to get by. Housing, food, health care, child care, energy costs, and all of those are going up because of actions of this administration and rubber stamping from Republicans. Republicans in Congress. People want to make sure that there's a Congress, that they have elected representatives who are focused on lowering costs. Donald Trump said he was going to lower costs on day one. That's a big broken promise. He's done nothing to do that. We are very focused on standing up for working families, making sure we're lowering costs and health care costs are about to skyrocket. A big thing we're standing up for right now across the country trying to address this health care crisis that Republicans created with their big, ugly bill.

[Host/Anchor]

Governor Pritzker told Rachel in an hour before us that he believes that Donald Trump wants troops on the streets of the United States now so that people will get used to it. So that when it comes time for the congressional elections next year, if the troops are surrounding their polling place, people will get used to it. Many of them might not decide to show up to vote because of it. That strikes me as a measure of just how afraid Donald Trump is of you and the Democrats possibly winning the House of Representatives.

[Guest/Political Commentator]

Yeah. If you know that you are supporting policies that the American people agree with and you have a winning message that's going to win you elections. But when you know that the American people are not on your side and you're not willing to change direction and actually listen to what people are saying on the ground, you figure out other ways to rig the system, like gerrymandering in states across the country or fear and intimidation, which is what he's been doing in parts of the country and continues to talk about doing. Not about helping communities. Communities didn't ask for this help. This is about fear and intimidation. It's nothing to do with public safety. We need folks who are actually going to work with communities, help communities and support families across the country. But Republicans are running scared.

[Host/Anchor]

Congresswoman Susan Del Bene, thank you very much for joining us tonight.

[Guest/Political Commentator]

Thank you.

[Host/Anchor]

That is tonight's last word.

[Commercial Announcer]

Did you know TIDE has been upgraded to provide an even better clean in cold water. Tide is specifically designed to fight any stain you throw at it. Even in cold butter. Yep. Chocolate ice cream. Sure thing, barbecue sauce. Tide's got you covered. You don't need to use warm water. Additionally, Tide pods let you confidently fight tough stains with new coldzyme technology. Just remember, if it's got to be clean, it's gotta be Tide.