Lawrence: Trump uses his desk to hide his swollen ankles & his Atty. Gen. to hide the Epstein files

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The Last Word with Lawrence O'Donnell

Episode: Trump uses his desk to hide his swollen ankles & his Atty. Gen. to hide the Epstein files
Date: August 20, 2025
Host: Lawrence O’Donnell (MSNBC)
Main Guests: Congressman Robert Garcia (CA), Andrew Weissmann (MSNBC Legal Analyst, former DOJ and FBI official), Sherrod Brown (former Senator, OH, Senate candidate)

Overview

This episode examines two major storylines:

1. The Trump administration’s efforts to withhold the release of the Jeffrey Epstein files, highlighted by new revelations from the House Oversight Committee.
2. The spectacle and implications of President Trump’s recent public behavior, including hiding physical health issues and questionable ties with foreign leaders.

Lawrence O’Donnell weaves personal political and Senate staff experience into sharp, often sardonic, commentary on today’s political events, with particular scrutiny on transparency, legal norms, and the upcoming Ohio Senate race.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Epstein Files and DOJ Stonewalling

a. Breaking News: Barr Confirms DOJ Can Release Epstein Files

• Lawrence kicks off with “tonight’s breaking Jeffrey Epstein News picks up where last night’s... left off,”
• Congressman Robert Garcia, ranking Democrat on the Oversight Committee, insists:

  “Attorney General Barr could not clear Donald Trump of wrongdoing... Chairman Comer should release the full unedited transcript of his interview for the public.” (03:00)

• The White House and Trump’s Attorney General, Pam Bondi, are accused of slow-walking or covering up the Epstein files, especially those naming Trump.

Quote:

“The House Oversight Committee has subpoenaed the Epstein files... DOJ has offered a compromise of beginning to deliver the Epstein files on Friday... only beginning to deliver them.” (09:30)

b. Legal Obligations and Political Delays

• Federal law mandates that, if enough House or Senate committee members request, DOJ “shall submit any information requested.”
• O’Donnell underscores there is “no legal way around that law as written,” but that does not mean the administration will comply.
• Garcia details that Senate committees are now also demanding files, led by seven Democrats for full Epstein disclosure.

Quote:

“Pam Bondi... has briefed the President on the Epstein files and his name being in the files. This has all been reported to the public. And so the question continues, why this delay?” (16:44, Garcia)

c. What Barr’s Testimony Said

• William Barr, Trump’s first-term confirmed AG, testified that he was not directly involved in the Epstein investigation and could not clear Trump.

Quote:

“There’s no way that he [Barr] could clear Donald Trump of anything, or make assumptions about what Donald Trump may have known or not known.” (12:27, Garcia)

• Barr confirmed under oath it is “within the power of the Attorney General now to release the entire Epstein files.” (16:28)

Memorable Moment:

O’Donnell: “Let me go back and double underline something you just said...” (16:28)

d. Transparency and Victim Protection

• Garcia and House Democrats demand that all depositions and testimonies be publicly released, with only minor redactions for victim privacy.

Quote:

“Let’s get the transcripts, let’s get the video... release all this to the public.” (13:08, Garcia)

e. Republican Strategy

• Garcia asserts the Republican committee strategy is “to distract,” cherry-pick witnesses, leak selectively, and “slow roll” the document production.
• He and O’Donnell both highlight the spectacle of delaying tactics as a form of cover-up.

2. Trump’s Public Behavior: Symbolism and Substance

a. Hiding Swollen Ankles – The Desk as Shield

• O’Donnell uses biting humor to describe Trump hiding behind the Resolute Desk—a metaphor for hiding both physical and political problems.

Quote:

“Donald Trump... now has an extra incentive to stay behind the desk because the Resolute desk will help him hide at least one of his problems. But that is the only problem the desk can help Donald Trump hide.” (03:05)

b. Trump, Putin, and Foreign Relations

• European leaders staged a high-profile intervention at the White House to prevent rash action with Putin.
• Trump’s public warmth for Putin is sharply critiqued:

Quote:

“That... is why people say it’s such a terrible thing that you feel warmth for that murderous dictator when you see him...” (05:33)

c. Trump’s Ukraine War and Vietnam Comparison

• Trump claims Ukraine is “the biggest bad situation since World War II.”
• O’Donnell rebukes the historical ignorance, reminding listeners of the Vietnam War’s far greater U.S. military and civilian toll.

Quote:

“No, Donald, it’s not a terrible thing... It is a terrible thing. Is that what you felt when you saw Jeffrey Epstein getting off his plane?” (06:00)

d. The “Hot Mic” Putin Remark

• Trump, overheard telling French President Putin would “make a deal for me... as crazy as it sounds,” is lampooned.

3. Turmoil in Trump’s Justice Department and FBI

• O’Donnell mocks the appointment of a second (co-) Deputy Director of the FBI, implying chaos and loss of professional standards.
• Andrew Weissmann comments on politicized investigations and performative stunts:

Quote:

“If this was done in any administration, Republican or Democratic, that was serious... that person would be fired or severely disciplined...” (24:43)

• DOJ lawyers are publicly embarrassing themselves with “stunts” and targeting New York’s AG Letitia James for specious reasons.

• Evidence of “slow drip” information release and unorthodox DOJ behavior paints the department as deeply politicized and dysfunctional.

Quote:

“So as the judge said in denying that in New York, that it is entirely disingenuous of the Department of Justice to make that motion. And now to have this sort of drips and drabs... underscores that they're not doing the most simple thing. If you actually wanted the files released, which is to release them” (23:16, Weissmann)

4. Sherrod Brown’s Senate Run and the Ohio Political Climate

a. Rationale for Brown’s Return

• Brown, who lost his seat previously, explains he’s re-running due to recent Republican measures in Ohio that have raised prices, cut health coverage, and favored billionaires.

Quote:

“I didn't plan to run for office again, but when I see what's going on, I know I can do something about it for Ohio. That's why I'm running for Senate.” (33:22, Brown)

b. Republican Record Under Scrutiny

• Brown criticizes $3 trillion in increased deficit, tax cuts for billionaires, 490,000 Ohioans losing coverage, and the closure of rural hospitals.

Quote:

"How do you sit on the sidelines when you see what's happening to our country, to my state... you just, you've got to step up and do what you can." (36:16, Brown)

c. Economic Realities and Tariffs

• Trump’s tariffs, chaotic economic management, and the firing of competent statisticians are blamed for erratic prices and lack of business confidence.
• Ohio’s factories—particularly steel and aluminum—are bearing the brunt of these policies.

Quote:

“We have huge electric consumers because we’re a steel state, we’re an aluminum smelting state... it means that prices across the board go up.” (43:19, Brown)

d. Inflation and National Debt

• Brown ties rising living costs, electric rates, and business uncertainty to Republican fiscal policy and their “rigged system.”
• He underscores the severity of the consequences for workers and small businesses.

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• O'Donnell (regarding Trump's desk):
  “Presidents actually rarely sit at the Oval Office desk like that... But Donald Trump now has an extra incentive to stay behind the desk because the Resolute desk will help him hide at least one of his problems.” (03:05)

• Garcia (on transparency):
  “Let’s get the transcripts, let’s get the video, and after each one, let’s release all this to the public... If this is really about transparency... let’s put as much information out to the public as possible.” (13:08)

• Weissmann (on DOJ stunts):
  “It's all performative. And if this was to...any administration, Republican or Democratic, that was serious, that person would be fired or severely disciplined at the very least.” (24:43)

• Brown (on Senate run):
  “I didn’t think I was going to run for office again. But how do you sit on the sidelines when you see what’s happening to our country, to my state, to my country, and you just, you've got to step up and do what you can.” (36:16)

• O’Donnell (on Barr’s testimony):
  “Let me go back and double underline something you just said...” (16:28)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [03:00] – Garcia presses for full Epstein file transcripts; start of Epstein news focus
• [13:08] – Garcia details Barr’s lack of direct involvement and expounds on transparency
• [16:28] – O’Donnell double-underlines Barr confirming AG can release all files
• [23:16] – Weissmann critiques the DOJ’s performative tactics and lack of transparency
• [24:43] – Analysis of DOJ’s public stunts targeting prosecutors and AGs
• [33:22] – Sherrod Brown’s campaign rationale and opening remarks
• [39:30] – Brown on Trump’s broken promise to lower prices and effects of tariffs
• [43:19] – Brown on how rising electricity costs due to tariffs hit Ohio industry

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Summary Table of Main Participants and Roles

| Name | Role & Relevance | |--------------------|----------------------------------------------------------------| | Lawrence O’Donnell | Host; provides political commentary and Senate experience | | Robert Garcia | House Oversight Committee, pushes for full Epstein disclosure | | Andrew Weissmann | Legal analysis, critiques DOJ/FBI stunts and lack of integrity | | Sherrod Brown | Former Senator, current candidate, addresses OH policy impacts |

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Episode Takeaways

• The Trump administration is accused of hiding damaging information in the Epstein files, with the Attorney General and Justice Department leveraging legal delay and obfuscation despite clear power to fully release the evidence.
• William Barr’s testimony is a critical development: he affirms the AG’s full authority to release.
• There’s intensified scrutiny of Trump’s foreign entanglements, health, and DOJ's “performative” shows of legal action.
• In Ohio, Sherrod Brown returns to politics, launching a campaign rooted in kitchen-table issues—healthcare, Tariffs, economic instability—blaming current dysfunction on GOP leadership and pledging to “fight for workers.”
• The tone blends investigative urgency, legal skepticism, and sharp political critique, punctuated by sarcasm and O’Donnell’s signature rhetorical style.

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This summary captures the full content and critical moments of the episode, serving as a rich guide for listeners and non-listeners alike.

Transcript

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[Lawrence O'Donnell]

The Last Word with Lawrence o' Donnell starts right now. Good evening, Lawrence. Good evening, Ellie. And thanks for that note of reality from the National Cathedral about life in Washington and how it is actually lived. See, you and I, guys like us, we don't, we just didn't come from an era where you just drop a link in when you're trying to make a case. This is one of those examples where before you send the link, just check what you're sending.

[Andrew Weissmann]

May not work out so well for you.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

I am so glad you follow that up. Ellie. Thank you.

[Sherrod Brown]

Thanks Albert.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Have yourself an excellent show, my friend.

[Sherrod Brown]

Thank you.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Thank you. Well, tonight's breaking Jeffrey Epstein News picks up where last night's breaking Jeffrey Epstein News left off. Congressman Robert Garcia, the top ranking Democrat on the House Oversight Committee, joined us last night after his committee conducted a four hour closed door deposition of the worst Attorney General. Donald Trump got confirmed by the Senate in his first term as president. William Barr 3 the Republican chairman of the Oversight Committee, James Comer, suggested last night that William Barr testified that Donald Trump did nothing wrong with Jeffrey Epstein. Congressman Garcia is now insisting, quote, yesterday during his deposition with the committee, Attorney General Barr could not clear Donald Trump of wrongdoing. Chairman Comer should release the full unedited transcript of his interview for the public. Carson Garcia will lead off our discussion again tonight. Donald Trump has a lot to hide from these days and more than one way of doing it. European leaders rushed to Washington yesterday to conduct an intervention in the White House to prevent Donald Trump from doing something crazy with Vladimir Putin. And the intervention worked, at least for a day. At least for now. The White House released this photograph of the intervention showing how Donald Trump chose to hide his newest problem during the intervention, his ankles. After photographers have repeatedly captured Donald Trump's swollen ankles over the last month, the White House released a statement saying that the swollen 79 year old ankles were a symptom of chronic venous insufficiency. That's one of the ways a lifetime of McDonald's junk food catches up with you. One of the places those Big Macs are going to show up is in the ankles hanging over the edge of your shoes. We can only wonder if the White House would have ever admitted that Donald Trump's blood circulation is insufficient in if not for the telephoto lenses of White House photographers zooming in on the ankles Donald Trump now wants no one to see. On Friday in Alaska, Vladimir Putin's 72 year old ankles showed none of the mileage of Donald Trump's ankles. And yesterday, Donald Trump made sure no one was going to be able to compare his ankles to a French president's ankles, or a German chancellor's or a British Prime Minister's. And so the Resolute desk became the perfect place to hide those ankles. Presidents actually rarely sit at the Oval Office desk like that. During meetings in the Oval Office with people from outside the White House staff, the President usually sits in one of those chairs in front of the fireplace. That's where the President always sat in every Oval Office meeting I was in when I worked in the Senate. But Donald Trump now has an extra incentive to stay behind the desk because the Resolute desk will help him hide at least one of his problems. But that is the only problem the desk can help Donald Trump hide. While the European intervention prevented Donald Trump from doing anything crazy with Vladimir Putin, the intervention could not prevent Donald Trump from saying anything crazy. Here's what Donald Trump told his worshipful Fox propaganda hosts this morning about what for him was that magical moment in Alaska that Donald Trump now insists was not such a terrible thing. I mean, you saw that when he.

[Andrew Weissmann]

Got off his plane. I got off my plane.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

There's a warmth there that you can't.

[Andrew Weissmann]

You know, there's a decent feeling and.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

It'S a good thing, not a bad thing.

[Andrew Weissmann]

People would say, oh, that's such a terrible thing. It's not a terrible thing.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Not a terrible thing. No, Donald, it's not a terrible thing. When you see a man get off his plane and you're getting off your plane and you feel a warmth for that man, that's not a terrible thing. Depending on who the man is, when your Treasury Secretary gets off his plane and he sees his husband, he surely has feelings like the warmth that you described. But your Treasury Secretary, Scott Besant's husband is not a murderous dictator. Scott Besant's husband has never murdered anyone and has never murdered children. Vladimir Putin has done that. And that, Donald, is why people say it's such a terrible thing that you feel warmth for that murderous dictator when you see him, quote, when he got off his plane, I got off my plane. There's a warmth that you can't, you know, there's a decent feeling. It's a good thing, not a bad thing. People would say, oh, that's such a terrible thing. Not a terrible thing. Yes, it's a terrible thing. Is that what you felt when you saw Jeffrey Epstein getting off his plane in Palm Beach? He got off his plane. I got off my plane. There's a warmth that you can't, you know, there's this. It's a decent feeling. Is that what you felt, Donald, when you saw Jeffrey Epstein? And speaking of crazy, Donald Trump told his Fox worshipful questioners this morning this about Vladimir Putin's war in Ukraine.

[Andrew Weissmann]

This is the biggest bad situation since World War II. There's been nothing even close.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Oh, yes, there has, Donald. The war you avoided back when your ankles were slim and a local doctor wrote a note to your draft board saying that you had bone spurs in your feet, feet that then spent the rest of their lives playing golf. The Vietnam War was much bigger and much worse situation than the war in Ukraine. And it went on much longer, especially for the American soldiers who went to Vietnam in your place. 58,000 of them have their names on a wall near where you live now because they never came home from Vietnam. And no amount of lying the way you do in exaggerating the military death tolls in Ukraine will ever bring those death tolls up to the level of the Vietnam War, which also included the deaths of as many as 2 million civilians in that war. And the Vietnam military, the North Vietnamese military, the Viet cong fighters, between 200,000, 250,000 thousand of them, including South Vietnamese soldiers. Donald Trump did say one thing about Vladimir Putin today that wasn't crazy, but it is something that everyone else has already been saying about Vladimir Putin. And Donald Trump today became the last one to realize this when Donald Trump told his FOX MORNING Friends, quote, it's possible that he doesn't want to make a deal. That's right, Donald Trump, that's possible. That's why everyone thought you were crazy yesterday when you were overheard on a hot mic telling the president of France that Vladimir Putin would make a deal for you just to do you a favor. I think he wants to make a deal.

[Sherrod Brown]

I think he wants to make a deal for me. You understand that? As crazy as it sounds.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Three. Yeah, it sounds crazy. The European intervention stopped Donald Trump from doing anything crazy with Vladimir Putin. But nothing can stop Donald Trump from saying ignorant things, things Donald Trump knows nothing about. Something Donald Trump does know about is how many times his name appears in the Epstein files. His Attorney General and deputy Attorney General, who used to be his criminal defense lawyer, is rushed to the Oval Office after they put thousands of FBI agents to work studying the Epstein Epstein files to tell Donald Trump exactly how many times his name appears in the Epstein files and in what way his name appears in the Epstein files. The House Oversight Committee has subpoenaed the Epstein files from the Justice Department, demanding that the files be delivered tomorrow. The Justice Department has offered a compromise of beginning to deliver the Epstein files on Friday of this week, two days late and only beginning to deliver them. The top Democrat on the House Oversight Committee, who will join us in a moment, says that that is not good enough. And now a Senate committee is pressing its legal right to obtain the Epstein files by law. Federal law says that the House. The two committees, the House Government Operations Committee and the Senate Governmental Affairs Committee, can request information from any executive agency, including the Justice Department, if any. Five members of that committee asked for the information. And today, seven members of the Senate Governmental Affairs Committee, all Democrats, wrote to the Attorney General, Pam Bondi, directing her, quote, to produce to this committee the full and complete Epstein files as identified by the Department of Justice and the Federal Bureau of Investigation. Federal law says that the Attorney General is bound by law by a federal law which says that an executive agency, quote, shall submit any information requested of it relating to any matter within the jurisdiction of the committee that applies to the Governmental affairs committees only. There is no way around that law as written, no legal way. But that does not mean that the Trump Attorney General will not defy that law, because she knows how many times and in what ways Donald Trump's name appears in the Epstein files. And Donald Trump knows. And they obviously don't want anyone else to know. Leading off our discussion tonight is Democratic Congressman Robert Garcia of California. He's the top ranking Democrat on the House Oversight Committee. Congressman, thank you very much for coming back tonight. You've had a chance now to take a very careful look at everything the Attorney General, former Attorney General William Barr, had to say yesterday. How would you characterize that testimony in relation to Donald Trump.

[Robert Garcia]

Well, thanks, Lawrence. And I'm really glad. Of course, the Senate is also now taking action. So I do want to say that that's really important. Look, I think what was pretty clear about the deposition with Bill Barr is that Bill Barr wasn't intimately involved in the Epstein case. There's no way that he could clear Donald Trump of anything or make assumptions about what Donald Trump may have known or not known, because he was not intimately involved. The folks that actually have all of the information were the federal prosecutors, the folks that were involved in the case, Alex Acosta, who we are demanding be deposed and testify in front of us, who we believe has an enormous amount of information. Bill Barr's testimony was important, but nothing substantial actually came out of that. I think what was really interesting is he also made some, I think, some significant assessments of the way he viewed the Todd Blanche meeting with Ms. Maxwell, with Ghislaine Maxwell. It's clear that that's something that he believed was very unusual. And we believe that's very unusual as well. And so we've told, and we've told Comer and the entire committee. Look, whether it's Bill Barr or whether it's other testimony in the future, why not release all of these to the public House? Democrats are okay with all these depositions. Let's get the transcripts, let's get the video, and after each one, let's release all this to the public. If this is really about transparency and about having a government that people can trust, let's put as much information out to the public as possible.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Are you aware of anything in that transcript of the Bill Barr four hours yesterday that should not be made public?

[Robert Garcia]

I think everything can be made public. I think there are going to be some instances. I mean, the Bill Barr testimony can be made fully public. Of course, there are gonna be some moments where around victims and around making sure that we're protecting victims that we don't want to make public. But as far as Bill Barr's testimony, we'd obviously review it one more time, but there's nothing in that testimony, as I have seen, where that's. The whole testimony should not be made public by the oversight.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Is this, is there a Republican strategy on the committee to their approach to these witness interviews that they're conducting? Yes.

[Robert Garcia]

Their strategy is to distract. Their strategy is to hand pick Republican witnesses that may not know a lot about the case or about Donald Trump's connection to the files. Their strategy is to slowly leak parts of the Epstein files, which is a reminder they didn't want release at all. Until we forced that vote, they had no interest in getting the Epstein files released. The DOJ had no interest in releasing any records or documents. It was only the subpoena that we forced. That is actually now snowballing. What we're seeing in front of us and what's going to happen over the next few weeks is Republicans are going to put out different members. They want to see witnesses, former administration officials, Democratic officials, Republican officials, but they are not going to get to or they don't want to focus on what really matters. Right now, today, Pam Bondi and Donald Trump have the power to release the full files and Epstein records today, tonight, right now, no one is stopping them. No one coming in front of us that's going to be deposed can change that. The single most important thing that we need are those records. And Bill Barr, by the way, said as much in his testimony. He agreed when pressed if Pam Bondi could release the files today. And we agree with Bill Barr, she has the power to release all of the documents now. And Friday is not good enough. We'll see what we get Friday, but they're gonna slow roll what they wanna put out. And so we're gonna make sure that every step of the way that we verify what's in these documents. We protect the victims, but we're not gonna arrest until the entire records and files are are with us and that we can finally, eventually get that out to the public.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Let me go back and double underline something you just said. It was former Attorney General William Barr's testimony yesterday under oath in that deposition, that it is within the power of the Attorney General now to release the entire Epstein files.

[Robert Garcia]

Oh, yeah, he made that clear. And so I think that that's something that he understands. We all know, I mean, Lawrence, we all heard Pam Bondi. I mean, the files were on her desk. She said it on Fox News. She had access to the entire files. She's read through them, she's done redactions and her team herself, we know she has briefed the President on the Epstein files and his name being in the files. This has all been reported to the public. And so the question continues, why this delay? Why not just release all the files? Why do we keep bringing folks in, many of whom have no real knowledge of what actually happened? I am looking forward to this Friday. We want to see what's going to be released and then we're going to push like hell to make sure that every last record and document is released, including, including, by the way, the client list. The client list is going to be very important and I'm hoping that we get that on Friday. And we've got to remember regardless of who's on that this has got to be focused on the victims and anyone that has done any harm to people or was involved in these crimes should be exposed and the public should know who those people are.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

It sounds like the breaking news of this hour right now that you're telling us is that the former Trump attorney general, the last Senate confirmed Trump attorney general, says that it is within the power of the current attorney general to release the entire Epstein files. Did William Barr indicate whether he would do that if he were attorney general? Now?

[Robert Garcia]

He didn't indicate that. He indicated that the current attorney General Pembondi has it within her power to release those files right now. And so we're, you know, we're once again saying she should release the entire files. And this idea that she's going to roll out some of it on Friday and then continue this kind of planned stage rollout is not acceptable. Once again, they are playing distraction, it playing games. This is all part of a massive White House cover up. We know Donald Trump does not want these files released after campaigning so vigorously to get them out. The American people deserve the truth and we're going to keep fighting to get it.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Congressman Robert Garcia, thank you very much for joining us once again tonight. And coming up with the Trump Justice Department and Trump FBI careening more and more out of control. Andrew Weissman, who served in the Justice Department and as counsel to the FBI, will join us next.

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[Robert Garcia]

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[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Repeating the breaking news that we just heard from Congressman Robert Garcia in his under oath deposition with the House Oversight Committee. Yesterday, former Trump Attorney General William Barr said it is within the current Attorney General Pam Bondi's power to release the entire Epstein files right now. That is the breaking news tonight from that deposition yesterday. William Barr saying the Attorney General is fully empowered to release the entirety of the Epstein files at any time. And with the turmoil of the Epstein files swamping the Justice Department, Donald Trump's Justice Department now has a new Deputy Director of the FBI, which now makes two deputy directors of the FBI. Podcaster Dan Bongino was the only Deputy Director of the FBI until today. When Donald Trump appointed Missouri Attorney General Andrew Bailey as co Deputy Director of the FBI, there was no explanation as to why the FBI now needs two deputy directors while the FBI is firing FBI agents by the thousands. Trump Justice Department lawyer Edward Martin, who could not be confirmed by the Senate as a United States Attorney, is now conducting public stunts to humiliate himself, apparently for the way he is conducting what the Trump Justice Department calls an investigation of New York's Attorney General Letitia James for no conceivable reason. Attorney Edward Martin found himself on the sidewalk in New York City with staff member Neil McCabe outside the home of Attorney General Letitia James. Why would you be asking. You are asking my law in front of my.

[Sherrod Brown]

I'm just.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And you're not telling me what you're doing.

[Andrew Weissmann]

That's not true.

[Robert Garcia]

Interesting houses.

[Sherrod Brown]

It's important house.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

So thank you.

[Andrew Weissmann]

Have a good time. It's just like every other track that's.

[Sherrod Brown]

On the block that was built by developers.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Right.

[Robert Garcia]

They're beautiful.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Beautiful neighborhood.

[Andrew Weissmann]

Thank you.

[Robert Garcia]

Do you guys call this a stoop?

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

What do you think? I don't know.

[Sherrod Brown]

It's a stoop.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

We didn't have stoops where I was growing up. Is this a stoop? It was 88 degrees on that sidewalk while that freak was walking around in that trench coat. Joining us now is Andrew Weissman, former FBI General counsel and former Chief of the Criminal Division in the Eastern District of New York. He's an MSNBC legal analyst. And. And Andrew, let's begin with the breaking news that we just heard from Congressman Garcia. The clarity by former Attorney General Donald Trump's last Senate confirmed Attorney General in his first term, William Barr, saying it is fully within the power of the Attorney General. Now, Pam Bondi, to release the entirety of the Epstein files.

[Andrew Weissmann]

Absolutely. Well, you know, I hate to say this, but he is absolutely right. We have been saying this all along and that just it to me, it underscores the stunt nature of what we've been seeing the idea that they filed this motion to unseal grand jury testimony when everyone knew there would be nothing there and it would be unlikely to be granted. But that was not where the files are. That's, that's a tiny, tiny fraction. They could release that any moment. So as the judge said in denying that in New York, that it is entirely disingenuous of the Department of Justice to make that motion. And now to have this sort of drips and drabs that death by thousand cuts of slowly releasing bits and pieces is all underscores that they're not doing the most simple thing. If you actually wanted the files released, which is to release them, I want.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

To go to that video that we just saw, which I know for, for me was unimaginable until I saw it. It's not something a fiction writer could come up with. It's something that's never happened before. It includes the utter freakiness of an 88 degree sidewalk and a guy in a trench coat, for reasons known only to him, two goons, it looks like, standing there outside the home of the Attorney General of the State of New York. What do you see when you look at that video?

[Andrew Weissmann]

It's all performative. And if this was to. This was done in any administration, Republican or Democratic, that was serious, a serious Department of Justice, that person would be fired or severely disciplined at the very least. One of the reasons is it's not going to help any potential future case the department brings to show that kind of poor judgment and to disparage a person and have sort of that plate of publicity while somebody's under investigation. That's not going to help your case. And so it really is going to help the defense here, ironically, because of the such poor form. And it's going to really be used against the Department of Justice. So this is one where you have to wonder what Pam Bondi and Todd Blanch are doing. They either have control of him or not. And if they don't take action here, you know, they really own that kind of behavior.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Yeah. And I for one, don't think there will ever be a defense because I don't think there will ever be any federal criminal charges filed against the Attorney General of the State of New York, which is. Which to me partially explains the insanity of that stunt, since there will never be a criminal prosecution. Let's go walk around the sidewalk outside of her home so that the Trump fans can actually think something's happening.

[Andrew Weissmann]

Yeah, that. Absolutely. That could very well be the case. And it Ties into the point that you were making about there now are two deputy attorney General. Sorry, two deputy FBI directors. That doesn't happen. And the reason I think you can tie this all together is it shows the lack of confidence in the first deputy director. I mean, this is tantamount to firing him, but it certainly is not a vote of confidence. And so you ask yourself if you really are pro law enforcement, if you really are saying, oh, we, you know, for instance, you really care about crime in D.C. and crime in L. A and you want to send in the Marines because you care so much. Well, how about starting by having an experienced, competent former agent or current agent as the deputy director of the FBI? Kash Patel said he was gonna do that. And that's where you sort of realize how much of this is performative at the expense of the sort of public safety and good law enforcement. That would be true, by the way, just to be clear of any administration, Republican or Democrat, if they were serious.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

There's been a lot to criticize about the FBI through its history, especially the J. Edgar Hoover years when the FBI was conducting illegal wiretaps on Martin Luther King and others in those dark days of the FBI. But in the modern FBI, one thing it's not known for is chaos. That seems to be what we're seeing there now with these co directors and an utterly incompetent, inane director of the FBI.

[Andrew Weissmann]

Well, look, to be clear, what is being said to all of America is that the first choice was not the right one. If the first choice was somebody who could do the job, which, by the way, one person has done that job for decades. So clearly that means that they have appointed somebody who they do not think can do that job. That is a mark on Donald Trump. We saw it in the first administration, we're seeing it now. And the idea that you are doing this at a time that you are telling the public you care about crime in D.C. so much so that you're calling in the National Guard from all around the country, you're calling in the Marines. That, to me, is the, you know, the real fallacy of what we're seeing from this administration.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Might it actually be that the new co director of the FBI is functionally going to be the director because you have a completely incompetent director in Patel, you have a completely incompetent deputy director in Bongino. And putting this co Deputy director in there as what might become the White House's real guy in the FBI or the Attorney General's real guy in the FBI and everyone maneuvers around the two clowns who were already there.

[Andrew Weissmann]

That's possible. My concern is if I were in the administration, it's obviously a hypothetical. What I would be saying is where is the career, experienced person who traditionally is in that role? And it's not just a question of, oh, traditionally we do that. There's a reason you need to know how cases are done. You need to know how the FBI works. You need to know how to motivate people. You need to know all of the ins and outs. This is not a time and a place to learn on the job. This is why experience matters. And so without disparaging the person who's coming in, they do not have, as far as I know, that experience. So we could end up with now three people, not one, not two, not three, without the requisite experience at a time and in a place where it really is important to our safety.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Andrew Weissman, thank you very much for joining us tonight.

[Andrew Weissmann]

You're welcome.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And coming up, there is hope in Ohio tonight for the Democrats. Sherrod Brown, who won three Senate elections in Ohio, is running for Senate again. And Sherrod Brown will join us next.

[MSNBC Announcer]

Saturday, October 11th. From New York City, it's MSNBC Live 25. Join your favorite Ms. Rachel Maddow, Joe Scarborough, Mika Brzezinski, Nicole Wallace, Ari Melber, Alicia Menendez, Simone Sanders Townsend, Michael Steele, Chris Haynes, jen Psaki, Lawrence O', Donnell, Stephanie Ruhle and more. Visit msnbc.comlive25 to buy your tickets today.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Republican Congresswoman Elise Stefanik was booed off stage at an event in her district last night in upstate New York. Our congresswoman from New York, 21, Elise Stefani. And here's what happened to Wyoming's only member of the House of Representatives, Harriet Hegman, who won her seat in a Trump backed campaign against former Wyoming Republican Congresswoman Liz Cheney.

[Sherrod Brown]

Do you support the release of those files?

[Robert Garcia]

I support.

[Andrew Weissmann]

It's up for. It's up to the courts to decide.

[Sherrod Brown]

It is up to the courts to decide.

[Andrew Weissmann]

Up to the courts to decide.

[Sherrod Brown]

Yes, ma'.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Am.

[Andrew Weissmann]

Thank you. Mail in ballots are not foundational tools. You're fully capable of exercising your right to vote without a mail in ballot. You are absolutely fully capable of exercising your right to vote without a ballot.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

She's lying, of course, and her constituents know it. It is not up to the courts to decide about releasing the Epstein files. The courts have nothing to say about that. And as we just heard from Donald Trump's last attorney general in his first term of office. It is completely up to the Attorney General to decide to release the Epstein files. In Ohio. Sherrod Brown is back. Sherrod Brown served three terms in the United States Senate. Representing Ohio. Senator Brown lost his reelection campaign last year and now he's running for the Senate seat vacated by JD Vance, which is now held by the appointed Ohio Senator, John Huston.

[Sherrod Brown]

For the past eight months, all they've done has made things worse for Ohioans. Handing over your hard earned money to corporations and to billionaires. Their reckless tariffs and economic chaos are increasing prices and threatening the survival of small businesses all across our state. Instead of lowering the cost of health care, they're raising drug prices on seniors and kicking 490,000 hardworking Ohioans off their coverage. And they've increased the deficit by more than $3 trillion, all while giving billionaires the largest, largest tax cut in American history. I didn't plan to run for office again, but when I see what's going on, I know I can do something about it for Ohio. That's why I'm running for Senate.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Joining us now is former Democratic Senator Sherrod Brown of Ohio, now candidate for Senate in Ohio again. Senator, thank you very much for joining us tonight.

[Sherrod Brown]

Wonderful to be back. Lawrence, thank you. Always to be on your show. Thanks so much.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

You were there. You were watching this. You were in Ohio. You said there that you weren't intending to run again. What was the turning point for you in deciding to run?

[Sherrod Brown]

Well, you can see starting in February, March, April, things got worse. You could see that prices were not coming down, prices were going up, people's electric bills were increasing. And then they pass a bill to give tax cuts to the richest people in the country, drive the deficit up $3 trillion and throw 490,000 Ohioans off their health care. I mean, think of that. A state of 12 million, 490,000 of them are going to lose their insurance. And especially, you know, this, Lawrence, in rural areas where the hospital is generally the largest employer, people now will now have to run, have to drive 30 or 40 minutes to get emergency care, to have a baby. And you know, in small towns, it's often the biggest employer. And look what happens to those small towns. By any measurement, this bill and what's happened the last eight months said to Connie and me, we can't sit on the sidelines. We got to get back in this because I can help make this better. I took on, I mean, I've built my career taking on a rigged political and economic system. It's gotten worse with this crowd, with the billionaires and the special interests represented by my opponent in so much of the send the spineless senators in Washington. I'm ready to go. We announced yesterday morning. And thanks for putting me on the show on the second day, Senator.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

We're seeing in those Republican town halls and in polling a voter's remorse of sorts. The polling climate is different today than it was in November of last year. Is that the situation in Ohio now?

[Sherrod Brown]

Yeah, I don't. No doubt. I mean, people, people did not vote for tax cuts for the rich when they voted last November. They didn't vote to close rural hospitals. They didn't vote in my state to throw 490,000 people off their health insurance. They didn't vote to turn over government to special interests. I mean, it's been a rigged system for years, but it's worse now. It's clearly worse. And that's why, that's why I got in this race. You know, I didn't think I was going to run for office again. But how do you sit on the sidelines when you see what's happening to our country, to my state, to my country, and you just, you've got to step up and do what you can. I see people around the country, you know, they go to Tesla dealerships, they go to rallies, they go to town halls. I mean, everybody should do what she can do, everybody can do what he can do. And this is what I can do. And I'm going to do it well, and I'm going to come back and make a difference for my state and for my country.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And, Senator, you now have a full Trump and Republican Congress agenda to identify, to run against. What are the main points that you're running against that you've seen in these eight months?

[Sherrod Brown]

Well, you run against the fact that the system's rigged and getting worse. You run against the 490,000 people that lost their insurance. You run, you run against. The fact is, my state doesn't have anybody fighting for workers. I ask people to come to Sherrodbrown.com and help dislodge that, help fix that. Because nobody is, nobody's speaking out for Ohio workers. We have two senators that simply are always there for special interests. The guy running against usted, he was 25 years in Ohio government. He was there for the drug companies. He was there for Wall Street. He was there for utility companies. People have seen their utility bills go up, they've seen drug prices go up. He gets appointed to the Senate and is continuing, no surprise, he's continuing to do the same thing he was before by every vote he casts in the Senate, virtually every vote or almost every vote he casts in the Senate helps those interest groups. And as I've said on the show before, Lawrence, I don't see politics left or right. I see it as whose side are you on? And that's how voters decide. Are you on the side of the drug companies or Wall Street? Are you on the side of workers and consumers? And that contrast is clear. That's why this November, for the next 14 months, I'll be making that contrast between the appointed Republican incumbent and me as the challenger.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Senator, we have to squeeze in a quick break here. I'd like to come back to a point that you raised in your campaign video about how tariffs are affecting Ohio. We'll be right back with Senator Sherrod Brown. Last year during the presidential campaign, Donald Trump made one very clear promise.

[Sherrod Brown]

When I win, I will immediately bring prices down starting on day one.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Senator Sherrod Brown is back with us. Senator Brown, what happened to prices?

[Sherrod Brown]

Well, he didn't bring prices down as he talked about. Of course he did. And he'd also end the Ukraine war and Ukraine, Russia war in one day. But what he did was inject all kinds of chaos and uncertainty into the business world, into the economy, the erratic sort of scatterbrained tariffs. Then he fires the head of the Bureau of Labor Statistics. And when you talk to business people, more than anything, no matter their view of government, but more than anything, they want predictability so they can invest. When you see these erratic, uneven, on again, off again, on again, off again, literally two or three times tariffs at whatever industry or whatever country. And when you see him undermining the things we rely on business relies on in labor statistics, business people tell me, particularly small business, we just don't feel comfortable investing. And you don't invest for the future if you can't rely on the statistics and you can't rely on a more even handed government. So it's clearly that's not written about as much on how these on again, off again tariffs hurt economic growth. But clearly we see inflation up, we see economic growth down and uneven. And that's so much of the way he's handled this economy and the way that people in the spineless members of Congress and Senate like John Husted just go along. They do nothing to bring predictability to the state and country. And we're paying a price because of this, because of people like John Husted.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And the Republican Congress, although they've had no role in tariffs, even though the Constitution says they're supposed to. They've given up their power to control tariffs. They absolutely all voted for those Republicans. This budget bill which massively increases the national debt, which has its own inflationary price increasing effect.

[Sherrod Brown]

Yeah. And this what they've done with the national debt, I mean they, to give tax cuts to billionaires and the largest corporations. It's been said over and over, it needs to be said over and over. They've driven the federal deficit up, the federal debt up $3 trillion and that's clearly bad for this economy. All to give tax cuts to the wealthiest people, let alone taking insurance from almost 500,000 Ohioans, millions across the country, let alone allowing drug prices to go up, allowing utility prices. Electric utilities in Ohio especially are problematic. All those things hurt economic growth. All those things hurt workers. And when I say workers, I mean whether you're working a back office insurance company, whether you work for tips, whether you're, you're bailing hay, whether you're taking care of an aging parent, all of them are hurt with this kind of economy. And the Senate just goes along.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Is Ohio one of the states that's affected by the electricity supply from Canada that has been disrupted because of Donald Trump's tariff regime on Canada?

[Sherrod Brown]

Yeah, I think it's, I'm not an expert in utilities, but I think when you see that in Ohio, right across the lake with the greatest body of fresh water in the world, Lake Erie and the Great Lakes is Canada. And we're affected by so much, including these erratic, uneven tariffs on Canada. So anytime there's disruption that way, it hurts Ohio consumers. We've seen electric rate go, go. Electric rates go up all over my state and there's no end in sight with this crowd.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And electricity rates obviously go up for every entity in Ohio, including businesses. Therefore prices go up because of the electricity rates going up. It's all parts of inflationary spiral that's underway.

[Sherrod Brown]

We have huge electric consumers because we're a steel state, we're aluminum smelting state. So where there's huge amounts of electricity used in producing products and making, making goods, goods and products, it means that prices across the board go up. Exactly right.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Former Senator Sherrod Brown, now Democratic Senate candidate in Ohio. Thank you very much for joining us.

[Sherrod Brown]

Thank you again tonight.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Great to have you back. And we will be right back. Ohio Senate candidate Sherrod Brown gets tonight's last word. Sometimes an identity threat is a ring of professional hackers and sometimes it's an overworked accountant who forgot to encrypt their connection while sending bank details.

[Sherrod Brown]

I need a coffee.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And you need Lifelock. Because your info is in endless places. It only takes one mistake to expose you to identity theft. Lifelock monitors hundreds of millions of data points a second. If your identity is stolen, we'll fix it, guaranteed, or your money back. Save up to 40% your first [e-mail] specialoffer terms apply.