Lawrence: Trump wants us to talk about Jimmy Kimmel. So we'll talk about Trump & Jeffrey Epstein.

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell

Episode: Trump wants us to talk about Jimmy Kimmel. So we'll talk about Trump & Jeffrey Epstein.
Date: September 18, 2025
Host: Lawrence O’Donnell
Notable Guests: Rep. Eric Swalwell, Andrew Weissmann, Sen. Ed Markey

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Overview

This episode focuses on Donald Trump's attempts to distract the public with media feuds (notably involving Jimmy Kimmel) while skirting deeper scandals, specifically Trump's connections to Jeffrey Epstein and the handling of sex trafficking investigations. O'Donnell uses his signature mix of political analysis, historical context, and sharp critique to examine recent political events, including the White House's unprecedented interference in media and private corporations, congressional hearings regarding Epstein, and ongoing public health crises linked to vaccine policy.

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Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. Trump, Corporate America, and Media Interference

[00:47-09:48]

• Trump's Media Intimidation Tactics
  O'Donnell details Trump's public celebration over Jimmy Kimmel's supposed cancellation and his unprecedented campaign to intimidate corporate media and direct the FCC against critics.

  • "No president in history has ever threatened corporate America more than the current Republican president." [02:04]
  • Nixon and previous presidents never tried to get comedians like Johnny Carson fired for jokes.

• Corporate America’s Response

  • O'Donnell points to a historic lack of corporate courage: companies, fearing retaliation, acquiesce to Trump’s demands.
  • It's framed as "stupid Soviet style socialism" when Trump’s administration seizes stakes in private companies (like the Intel case).

• Shift in Political Humor and Respect

  • Late-night comedians (Seth Meyers, Stephen Colbert, Jimmy Kimmel) are now primary sources for commentary on Trump’s actions, a shift from when politics and the presidency were considered serious and less joke-worthy.
  • "[Now] we have a president who is a joke, a president who is an unavoidable joke for people doing daily nightly comedy. And Donald Trump doesn't like the joke." [06:36]

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2. Protest in London: Trump, Epstein, and Royal Scandals

[09:48-17:21]

• Projection Protests During Trump’s UK Visit

  • Guerrilla comedians project images of Trump and Epstein, including Trump’s 2002 quote about Epstein, onto Windsor Castle.
  • O'Donnell underscores the hypocrisy in inviting Trump for state visits when royal scandals (Prince Andrew’s Epstein ties) are unresolved.

• The Epstein-Andrew Parallels

  • Prince Andrew’s infamous interview and disgrace are compared to Trump’s present proximity to Epstein’s scandal, now imported into Windsor Castle.
  • "If Andrew was too close to Jeffrey Epstein to not be allowed close to the king, how can Donald Trump be sitting at that table close to the king?" [15:39]

• Peter Mandelson's Fallout

  • Former British ambassador Peter Mandelson loses his position after Epstein-related emails surface, further entangling British leadership with the scandal.

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3. Congressional Hearings: FBI Director and Epstein Files

[17:21-25:35]

• FBI Director Kashyap Patel Under Fire

  • Rep. Eric Swalwell grills Patel on failures to investigate and release Epstein-related documents.
  • Swellwell lists powerful men named in Epstein files (e.g., Barclays CEO, a royal prince, billionaires).

• Evasive Testimony & Trump Allegations

  • Patel dodges direct questions on whether Trump is named in Epstein files, refusing to answer simply, which both O'Donnell and Swalwell interpret as “consciousness of guilt.”
  • "We can deduce by the fact that he won't release it and he won't tell us how many times Donald Trump's name is in the Epstein files, that he's afraid to do it because he's afraid that it would anger Donald Trump." — Rep. Eric Swalwell [24:26]

• Patel’s Legitimacy Questioned

  • Both parties privately doubt his competence.
  • O'Donnell: "His decision is to become the biggest punk who's ever testified in con hearings." [22:47]

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4. DOJ, Ghislaine Maxwell, and Softball Interviews

[27:13-34:47]

• Deputy Attorney General's Ghislaine Maxwell Interview

  • Trump's former criminal defense lawyer, now deputy AG, conducted a rare interview with Maxwell but did not scrutinize her answers.
  • He claims his goal was just to "let her speak," not pressure-test her statements.
  • "The point of the interview was not for me to pressure test every answer... The point was to give her an opportunity to speak, which nobody had done before." — Deputy AG [28:45]

• Andrew Weissmann’s Legal Analysis

  • Weissmann slams the interview as unprofessional — Maxwell had many prior opportunities to testify, and the premise that she wasn’t given a chance is false.
  • He questions the decision to grant Maxwell privileges without vetting her credibility.
  • “It is truly remarkable that you’re hearing this from the number two person in the Department of Justice.” — Weissmann [33:19]

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5. Trump Administration’s Double Standard: Treasury Secretary Scandal

[36:28-40:09]

• Treasury Secretary Scott Besant's Mortgage Scandal
  • Besant is exposed for pledging two principal residences simultaneously, echoing the baseless accusations against Federal Reserve Governor Lisa Cook.
  • Andrew Weissmann: These cases hinge on intent, and evidence suggests a selective, partisan prosecution approach by the Trump administration.

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6. Public Health Crisis: Vaccine Policy Under Kennedy

[40:09-46:59]

• CDC Whistleblower Testimony

  • Former CDC chief medical officer Dr. Deborah Hurry, forced out by Robert F. Kennedy Jr., testifies on the dangers of his vaccine policies.
  • "Children have died under his watch... Robert F. Kennedy is compromising the recommendation on vaccines." — Dr. Deborah Hurry [40:47-41:10]

• Sen. Ed Markey on Kennedy’s Damaging Policies

  • Republican senators display little concern; Markey implicates them in rising anti-vaccine sentiment and decreasing immunization rates.
  • "No Paul Revere's warning of a danger... Instead, most of them were still coming in aggressively trying to undermine her credibility." — Sen. Ed Markey [44:56]
  • Urges a “massive public education battle” against misinformation, likening the situation to a war for the nation’s health infrastructure.
  • “Robert F. Kennedy Jr. must resign. We have to turn him into a health care pariah.” [45:55]

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Memorable Quotes & Key Timestamps

• On Trump’s unprecedented approach
  "No president ever tried that. No president has ever threatened corporate America more than the current Republican President." — Lawrence O'Donnell [02:04]

• On the changing role of presidential humor
  "Now we have a president who is a joke, a president who is an unavoidable joke for people doing daily nightly comedy." — Lawrence O'Donnell [06:36]

• On Trump, Epstein, and Royal Hypocrisy
  "If Andrew was too close to Jeffrey Epstein to not be allowed close to the king, how can Donald Trump be sitting at that table close to the king?" [15:39]

• On the lack of corporate courage in America
  "There is no history of corporate bravery in America." — Lawrence O'Donnell [04:45]

• Swalwell grilling FBI Director
  "These documents in FBI possession, your possession, detail at least 20 men...Have you launched any investigations into any of these people?" — Rep. Eric Swalwell [18:55]

• On Ghislaine Maxwell’s opportunity to testify
  "A trial of a criminal defendant is an invitation to speak. And Andrew, she did not dare accept that invitation." — Lawrence O'Donnell [30:52]

• On vaccine policy and Kennedy’s impact
  “He is lying. He is allowing for the spread of misinformation and too many parents are already accepting it…We have to turn him into a health care pariah.” — Sen. Ed Markey [45:11/45:55]

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Segment Timestamps

• 00:47 – 09:48: Trump-Kimmel feud and Trump’s threat to corporate media
• 09:48 – 17:21: Windsor Castle protest, UK royal/Epstein scandal
• 17:21 – 25:35: Congressional hearings on Epstein files, FBI Director Patel
• 27:13 – 34:47: DOJ’s handling of Ghislaine Maxwell, legal analysis with Andrew Weissmann
• 36:28 – 40:09: Treasury Secretary Scott Besant’s mortgage scandal
• 40:09 – 46:59: Dr. Deborah Hurry and Sen. Ed Markey on public health threats under Kennedy

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Conclusion

O'Donnell’s episode powerfully reframes the media narrative Trump attempts to influence, exposing deeper, uncomfortable truths about the president’s entanglements, the erosion of governmental standards, and the current crisis in public health leadership. This episode serves as both a timely political analysis and a call to prioritize the stories the administration would prefer to avoid — with wit, moral clarity, and a refusal to be distracted.

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Transcript

[Laci Mosley]

What's poppin listeners? I'm Lacey Mosley, host of the podcast Scam Goddess. The show that's an ode to fraud and all those who practice it. Each week I talk with very special guests about the scammiest scammers of all time. Wanna know about the fake errors? We got em? What about a career con man? We've got them too. Guys that will wine and dine you and then steal all your coins. Oh, you know they are represented cause representation matters. I'm joined by guests like Nicole Byer, Ira Madison iii, Conan o' Br and more. Join the congregation and listen to Scam Goddess. Wherever you get your podcasts, you can't.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Count on much these days. No way. Jim. This is incredible. But you can always count on Sundays with the NFL on CBS and Paramount.

[Senator Ed Markey]

Here we go.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

This time for real. Watch your local NFL game live every Sunday all the way through the AFC championship game and he's in for a touchdown. Visit paramountplus.com NFL to get started today and count on Sundays with the NFL on C and Paramount. Plus, well, there will be no jokes about Donald Trump's comically incompetent FBI director tonight on ABC because that corporate media giant decided to bend to the will of Donald Trump. And Donald Trump's FCC commissioner urged ABC to at least suspend Jimmy Kimmel because of something Jimmy Kimmel said about the reaction to the killing of Charlie Kirk. At 8:04pm, Donald Trump tweeted great news for America. The ratings challenged. Jimmy Kimmel show is cancelled. Congratulations to ABC for finally having the courage to do what had to be done. Kimmel had zero talent and worse ratings than even Colbert, if that's possible. That leaves Jimmy and Seth, two total losers on fake news NBC. Their ratings are also horrible. Do it NBC. Three exclamation points from the most childish and peculiar to put it mildly, president in history. That's what he had to say tonight. That's what he thought was important for the world to hear from him tonight. Richard Nixon never tried this. Richard Nixon, the most corrupt American president prior to Donald Trump, never tried to get Johnny Carson fired from the Tonight show for telling jokes about Richard Nixon. No president ever tried that. No president has ever threatened corporate America more than the current Republican President. And Republicans have always had the support of corporate America in their presidential campaigns because corporate America has wrongly perceived Republican presidencies to somehow be better for their businesses. Even though the economy historically has done better during Democrats Democratic presidencies. Corporate America has always been biased in favor of Republican candidates for president the only thing that Democratic candidates for president ever wanted to do that was somehow threatening to corporate America was to have corporations pay higher taxes than Republicans wanted them to pay. Democratic presidents never tried to take over their businesses, as Donald Trump has done. Donald Trump is the first president in history to essentially seize a piece of a private corporation. When last month the Trump administration took a 10% stake in Intel, a private company. And now that is very old fashioned and very stupid Soviet style socialism. Very stupid. Private companies run best as private companies. Republicans prior to Donald Trump were right about that. And Democrats were also right about that because they believed that too. But Democrats still believe it. Democrats have never tried to take over private companies. Democrats have never tried to tell private companies or private universities who to hire or who to fire. When one Republican senator, Joe McCarthy, went on a crusade against what he said were communists working in the government, and when some other Republican members of Congress crusaded against what they believed to be communists working in the movie business, the movie business was terrified and executives developed a blacklist of people who they would not hire. There is no history of corporate bravery in America. And so it is not surprising that corporations, fearing the wrath of a president who will take action against them, do what that president wants them to do. What is shocking is that the United States of America has such a president. We have never had one before Donald Trump. We have never had a president who would tell his FCC commissioner to attack any networks that have employ anyone who says anything negative about that president who tells a joke about that president. And now we do. Now we do have that. I have long thought that much of the coverage of the Trump political career is best left to the late night comedians. There have been many, many news days where I've considered commenting on some aspects of what Donald Trump had done that day and decided not to because I thought, Seth Meyers will do a better job with this. Jon Stewart will do a better job with this. Stephen Colbert will do a better job with this thing. Jimmy Kimmel will do something much better than I can do with that particular crazy thing that Donald Trump had done or said that day. And so I focused on something else that night. Johnny Carson hosted the Tonight show longer than anyone has ever hosted a Late Night Show. 1962-1992. Seven presidents during those 30 years of Johnny Carson hosting the Tonight show. Months could go by without him making a joke about the president, because the President wasn't a joke. The President was someone who was taken seriously and respected as the President by most people in the country. Most of the time. Not always, but most of the time. When Johnny Carson did tell a joke about the president, it was usually one joke. One. And he moved on. An unwritten rule for Tonight show writers was that Johnny Carson never told more than three political jokes in one monologue because Johnny thought that would be boring. Because politics was boring. Remember the luxury of politics being boring? How old do you have to be to be able to remember when you had the luxury of feeling American politics was boring? And you were right. Now we have a president who is a joke, a president who is an unavoidable joke for people doing daily nightly comedy. And Donald Trump doesn't like the joke. And so as the comedians microphones get cut off, the joke becomes darker. We should be shocked by Donald Trump, but no real student of American corporate history can be shocked by American corporate behavior when faced with threats of real socialistic interference in their businesses. Donald Trump wants us to spend this hour talking about Jimmy Kimmel. That's what he wants. And he has had that wish come true on most of cable news tonight. He won't have that wish come true here. We are going to continue to cover what Donald Trump doesn't want us to cover. Donald Trump wants an hour of talk about Jimmy Kimmel because he wants to show off his power to do what he did to Jimmy Kimmel. That is what he wants. He wants outrage over Jimmy Kimmel because that will prove to his most ardent followers that he must be doing something right. If the outrage is pouring out there over something Donald Trump has done. And there has been plenty of outrage tonight on cable news, there will be more. That's good. I'm glad it's there. But that's not what this hour is going to be about. So as American broadcasters silence comedians, guerrilla street comedians will come forward to do those jobs. In London last night, Donald Trump was greeted with pictures and videos of himself and Jeffrey Epstein and the fond birthday letter to Jeffrey Epstein with what appears to be Donald Trump's signature, all projected onto Windsor Castle, where Donald Trump is staying during his state visit. That was a serious protest with a British comedic touch. Irreverent, to put it mildly. Another poster at a bus stop includes a picture of Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein with this quote from Donald Trump about Jeffrey Epstein in 2002. Terrific guy. He's a lot of fun to be with. It is even said that he likes beautiful women as much as I do. And many of them are on the younger side. When Donald Trump said those words about Jeffrey Epstein, Jeffrey Epstein was raping children. Jeffrey Epstein was sex trafficking children. And everyone in the United Kingdom tonight now knows that about Jeffrey Epstein. Months ago, when the British government scheduled this flattery tour for Donald Trump in London to try to get him to come to his senses about tariffs with Britain, at least Jeffrey Epstein had not yet risen from the dead to become Donald Trump's political and moral problem of the year. The crimes of Jeffrey Epstein had already shaken the walls of Windsor Castle for years. The current King of England has a little brother named Andrew, who was a great friend of Jeffrey Epstein. And Jeffrey Epstein's criminal co conspirator and sex trafficker, Ghislaine Maxwell. And the King's little brother, Andrew settled a lawsuit by Virginia Giuffre that accused him of raping her. Like the King and everyone in his family throughout history, Andrew had no idea how to deal with public criticism. And so Andrew foolishly tried to do a television interview that would dig him out of trouble, which only made matters worse. Do you regret the whole friendship with Epstein.

[Prince Andrew]

Now?

[Senator Ed Markey]

I still not. And the reason being is that the people that I met and the opportunities that I was given to learn.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Either.

[Senator Ed Markey]

By him or because of him, were actually very useful.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

What a horrible, horrible human being. Jeffrey Epstein was very useful to him. That's what the King's little brother thought. Still, in 2019, Andrew managed to get demoted from a job that isn't a real job because of that interview, because of being so stupid in that interview and being so evil in his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein and being so evil in his retrospective view of Jeffrey Epstein's utility to him. Andrew retained his ridiculous archaic title of Prince, but his penalty was he now had nothing to do in a way that was somehow new from every previous person with Prince as a title who had nothing to do every single day of their lives. That was his penalty. That's a prince's penalty. Keep doing nothing for the rest of your life. Take a guy that has nothing to do and officially declare he has nothing to do and don't let him come to some of the important family gatherings because of his association with the raper of children and sex trafficker Jeffrey Epstein. The last thing the current King of England wanted was the stain of a relationship with Jeffrey Epstein in his family or in his life in any way that was not to enter his castle. And then, because of Donald Trump's illegal and unconstitutional use of tariffs, the British government got the brilliant idea that the way to deal with Donald Trump is to flatter him with an invitation from the King of England to come to London to be showered in flattery by the family that is already disgraced because of the little brother Andrew's relationship with a raper of children, with a sex trafficker. And so Andrew is not welcome at that table now, where Donald Trump is welcome. And Jeffrey Epstein never said that he was Andrew's closest friend, but Jeffrey Epstein did say in a taped interview with Michael Wolff, I was Donald's closest friend for 10 years. And so the King of England has stupidly managed to invite his family's piece of the Epstein scandal right into his castle tonight. If Andrew was too close to Jeffrey Epstein to not be allowed close to the king, how can Donald Trump be sitting at that table close to the king? Peter Mendelsohn got fired last week. Andrew is not allowed at that table. And now Peter Mendelsohn, who was supposed to be at that table, who was going to be at that table as of last week, is now not allowed at that table. When this flattery invitation was extended to Donald Trump, Peter Mandelson was in the room in the Oval Office. Peter Mandelson was then the British Ambassador to the United States, and he lost that job just last week because of Jeffrey Epstein. Last week, Bloomberg published emails between Peter Mandelson and Jeffrey Epstein. In 2008, after Jeffrey Epstein pleaded guilty in a plea deal for sex trafficking, Peter Mandelson emailed Jeffrey Epstein saying, I think the world of you and I feel hopeless and furious about what has happened. I can still barely understand. Could not happen in Britain. That was the day after Jeffrey Epstein began serving his very light sentence in Florida, in which he was allowed to spend the day at his office while sleeping at a facility in custody overnight. It just could not happen in Britain. I guess not. What happens in Britain is the king just makes you do nothing for the rest of your life. And so the British government, in its idiotic attempt to co opt Donald Trump through flattery, has put their king in the center of the Epstein scandal tonight, with Donald Trump sitting at the table while the ghosts of former Ambassador Mendelssohn and little brother Andrew float around the room. In Washington today, at the House Judiciary Committee, Donald Trump's most incompetent FBI director in history showed up for a regularly scheduled oversight hearing where Republican Thomas Massie dismantled Kashyap Patel's lazy testimony to the Senate Judiciary Committee yesterday.

[Eric Swalwell]

I watched some of your Senate hearing yesterday. When Senator Kennedy asked you, you've seen most of the files. Who, if any, did Epstein traffic these women to besides himself? You replied, according to the transcript, there is no credible Information that he trafficked them to anyone else. You also said somewhere in the hearing and here today that the problem is that the case files are constrained by limited search warrants from 2006 to 2007 and that the non prosecution agreement hamstrung future investigations. Those constraints only apply to Southern District of Florida. They do not apply to Southern District of New York. The location of the 2019 sex trafficking indictment which produced many things, including a series of FD302 documents, according to victims who cooperated with the FBI in that investigation. These documents in FBI possession, your possession detail at least 20 men, including Mr. Jess Staley, CEO of Barclays bank, who Jeffrey Epstein trafficked victims to victims including minors such as Virginia Roberts Euphree, may she rest in peace. That list also includes at least 19 other individuals. One Hollywood producer worth a few hundred million dollars. One royal prince, one high profile individual in the music industry. One very prominent banker, one high profile government official, one high profile former politician, one owner of a car company in Italy, one rock star, one magician, at least six billionaires, including a billionaire from Canada. We know these people exist in the FBI files, the files that you control. I don't know exactly who they are, but the FBI does. Have you launched any investigations into any of these people? And have you seen these 302 documents?

[Kashyap Patel]

Sir, I have asked my FBI agents to review the entirety of the Epstein files and bring forth any credible information. And we're working with Congress not only to divulge that information and produce it to you, but any investigations that arise from any credible investigation will be brought. There have been no new materials brought to me launching a new indictment.

[Eric Swalwell]

So is. Is the loophole here or is it your assertion that. That these victims aren't credible, that the 302s maybe didn't produce credible statements that rise to a probable cause?

[Kashyap Patel]

It's not my assertion, sir. It's the assertion of two different United States Attorney's offices from three separate administrations who investigated those same materials in lifetime.

[Eric Swalwell]

Are the 302 documents in the FBI's possession?

[Kashyap Patel]

They reviewed all that? Yes, sir.

[Eric Swalwell]

And so have you reviewed those 302 documents that where the victims name the people who victimized them?

[Kashyap Patel]

If I personally know. But the FBI has.

[Eric Swalwell]

So how can you sit here and in front of the Senate and say there are no names?

[Kashyap Patel]

I said all.

[Eric Swalwell]

I named one today.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Kashyap Patel obviously had no answer for that. And he obviously believes that the only way for him to continue to hold onto his job is for him to play the role of the wise guy in Congressional hearings, in a more slovenly way than anyone in history, has ever attempted to do anything like that.

[Lawrence O'Donnell (guest or analyst)]

Did you ever tell Donald Trump his name is in the files?

[Kashyap Patel]

I have never spoken to President Trump about the Epstein files.

[Lawrence O'Donnell (guest or analyst)]

Did you ever tell the Attorney General that Donald Trump's name is in the Epstein files?

[Kashyap Patel]

The Attorney General and I have had numerous discussions about the entirety of the Epstein files and the reviews conducted by our team.

[Lawrence O'Donnell (guest or analyst)]

You tell the Attorney General that Donald Trump's name is in the Epstein files.

[Kashyap Patel]

And we have released where President Trump.

[Lawrence O'Donnell (guest or analyst)]

Did you tell the Attorney General that the President's name is in the Epstein files?

[Kashyap Patel]

During many conversations that the Attorney General and I have had on the matter of Epstein, we have reviewed.

[Lawrence O'Donnell (guest or analyst)]

The question is simple.

[Kashyap Patel]

Who?

[Lawrence O'Donnell (guest or analyst)]

You tell the Attorney General that Donald Trump's name is in the Epstein files. Yes or no?

[Kashyap Patel]

Why don't you try spelling it out?

[Lawrence O'Donnell (guest or analyst)]

Yes or no?

[Kashyap Patel]

Direct the Alphabet.

[Lawrence O'Donnell (guest or analyst)]

Yes or no?

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

No.

[Kashyap Patel]

ABC Director, it sounds like you don't.

[Lawrence O'Donnell (guest or analyst)]

Want to tell us. Did you tell the Attorney General that Donald Trump's name is in the Epstein files?

[Kashyap Patel]

Question has been asked and answered.

[Lawrence O'Donnell (guest or analyst)]

You have not answered it. And we will take your evasiveness as a consciousness of guilt.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Leading off our discussion tonight is Democratic Congressman Eric Swalwell, California, a member of the House Judiciary Committee and the House Homeland Security Committee. Congressman, what, what are the things that we should take from that hear?

[Lawrence O'Donnell (guest or analyst)]

You know what I found interesting, Lawrence, talking to Republicans, is that they also think privately that Patel is not up for the job and not just because he screwed up the Charlie Kirk investigation. It's not just because he refuses to release the Epstein tapes. As one Republican told me, I just don't feel safe with this guy. And if you look at his testimony, particularly what you just played there and the way he conducted himself yesterday in front of the Senate, this person is not someone who's gonna keep anyone from harm. And you look at him and you think this guy's unhinged and he doesn't see his duty as protecting us from harm. He is just protecting himself from Donald Trump.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

As I listened to it, it was very clear to me that his decision is to become the biggest punk who's ever testified in con hearings. This is a kind of conduct we have never seen before in a witness chair. We've seen some, you know, disrespectful witnesses before. I remember when Robert Kennedy testified to the House beforelong before he was chosen by Donald Trump to be in the Cabinet. He was a pretty disrespectful arrogant, entitled, believing he was there by birthright kind of character. But this Patel thing goes beyond anything I've ever seen before.

[Lawrence O'Donnell (guest or analyst)]

It was an embarrassment, frankly, Lawrence. And by the way, no FBI director has ever been confirmed with fewer votes than Cash Patel. So he already came in with very little legitimacy. Nobody has had as little experience as Patel. So he came in with very little credentials and credibility. And so we had an opportunity to show the country that he's up for the job. And again, going into this hearing on the heels of a Fox News report where they had 10 sources, 10 sources tell Fox News that he's about to be canned. And one source said that Pam, referring to the attorney general, Pam, can't stand him. Well, now you see why, because he is. It's just an arrogant, incompetent director and doesn't make any of us safer when that's the chief charge of what he's supposed to be doing.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And he repeatedly lied to everyone who asked about it, about what could be turned over right now in the Epstein files.

[Lawrence O'Donnell (guest or analyst)]

He played this shell game where he said, well, we want everything released. So I went to the court and asked the court to release everything. And so that's where I read to him the court's opinion, where the judge, Judge Brennan, actually, no. What we as a court has, the judge says pales in comparison to what the Department of Justice has. The court is prohibited from releasing witness testimony to the grand jury. That's it. But if the Department of Justice separately owns that witness testimony in the form of witness interviews, witness statements, witness videotapes, and of course, any evidence collected through a search warrant that's under the custody of the Department of Justice. And the judge said, Cash Patel can release that. We can deduce by the fact that he won't release it and he won't tell us how many times Donald Trump's name is in the Epstein files, that he's afraid to do it because he's afraid that it would anger Donald Trump.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

I think we have a right to assume. It's a very impressive number, the number of times his name is in there. Congressman Eric Swalwell, thank you very much for leading off our discussion tonight. Thank you. Coming up, Donald Trump's former criminal defense lawyer, now his deputy attorney general, did an interview last night where he got exactly one lame question about his unprecedented and incompetent interview of convicted sex trafficker Ghislaine Maxwell. That's next with Andrew Weissman.

[Laci Mosley]

What's poppin, listeners? I'm Laci Mosley, host of the podcast Scam Goddess, the show that's an ode to fraud and those who practice it. Each week I talk with very special guests about the scammiest scammers of all time. Want to know about the fake eras? We got them. What about a career con man? We've got them too. Guys that will wine and dine you and then steal all your coins. Oh, you know they are represented because representation matters. I'm joined by guests like Nicole Byer, Ira Madison iii, Conan o' Brien and more. Join the congregation and listen to Scam Goddess. Wherever you get your podcasts, Ondeck is.

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[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Feeling foggy or just not yourself? This could be the effects of low testosterone levels. Henry Meds has you covered Our testosterone replacement therapy, or trt, is available in pills, injectable or daily creams. Many patients report improvements in energy, mood and focus, though individual results may vary. TRT may support sexual function go to henrymeds.com trt to consult a healthcare provider to see if TRT is right for you. Take the first step to feeling your best again and get $50 off your first month at henrymeds.com trt com. Last night, CNN managed to get an interview with Donald Trump's former criminal defense lawyer, who is now Donald Trump's deputy attorney general and who is the only deputy attorney general in history who conducted an interview of a federal prisoner without knowing anything about the details of the criminal case that got that prisoner convicted. In this case, the prisoner was Jeffrey Epstein's criminal co conspirator and convicted sex trafficker, trafficker Ghislaine Maxwell. And with that unique opportunity to question an opportunity I would have loved the unique opportunity to question the only deputy attorney general in history who's ever conducted such an interview. CNN thought about it and managed to come up with one and only one question about that.

[OnDeck/Henry Meds Advertiser]

When you met with her, did you.

[Dr. Deborah Hurry]

Find her to be credible?

[Prince Andrew]

It's an impossible question to answer. I met with her for two days to determine whether a witness is credible Takes weeks and weeks and weeks. I asked her questions that I believe all of us wanted answered, and she answered them. She answered them. I didn't. The point of the interview was not. Not for me to pressure test every single answer she gave. Of course not. The point of the interview was to give her an opportunity to speak, which nobody had done before. And so she had been in prison for many, many years and she had offered to speak on many, many occasions, and she was never given that opportunity. And so what I did is I gave her that opportunity to speak. It was recorded, my questions were there, and whether her answers were credible or truthful. There's a lot of information out there about Mr. Epstein, about her, and whether what she said is completely wrong or completely right or a little of both is for. That's the reason why we released the transcript. That's why we were transparent about the questions I asked. And the answers she gave is because it's really up to the American people to determine whether they believe that her answers were credible or whether they found or not credible.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Joining us now is Andrew Weissman, former chief of the Criminal Division for the Eastern District of New York and former FBI general counsel and MSNBC legal analyst. And so I counted a couple of lies in that answer. It's standard practice over there to allow lies and answers and not contest them. That happens every day over there. But for him to say she had offered to speak on many, many occasions and she was never given that opportunity ignores the biggest opportunity any criminal defendant has, which is the opportunity to raise your right hand and agree to testify under oath in your own trial, which she did not do. A trial of a criminal defendant is an invitation to speak. And Andrew, she did not dare accept that invitation.

[Andrew Weissman]

That is true. Completely accurate. She also would have the opportunity in the right in the federal system to testify before the grand jury. But leaving aside the legal procedures, she could speak to the press any day of the week. The idea that she did not have the opportunity, which by the way, Ghislaine Maxwell also said on page seven of the two day interview that she had been really trying to speak, but she just never had the chance, is just belied by the facts. And it's notable that she only spoke to Todd Blanche after being given a form of immunity, she refused to speak to the Senate without all sorts of conditions. So the idea that she was just always trying to give her story, but no one ever gave her that opportunity is just simply not true. And it's one thing to hear it from Ghislaine Maxwell, it's quite another to hear it from the deputy attorney general. I should also point out that I think Todd Blanch is right that it can take weeks and weeks and weeks to know whether someone is credible. It also can be the kind of thing that you can know fairly quickly. But what I would say to him if he were here is let's assume you're right, that for you who do not, you don't know the facts of the case. As you pointed out, he knew nothing about this. In turn, he would not been on the case. He had not been part the investigation. If it's going to take weeks and weeks for him to make that determination, why did he give her the benefit of moving to a camp when it could very well be that as Todd Blanche noted that to lie to him would be yet another federal crime, so she could have committed yet another federal offense and she got a benefit. And as Todd Blanche is saying before he even could make the determination, which was astounding, that he is admitting that he can't even say that he found her credible.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Yeah. And of course, CNN didn't even ask about why was she moved to this camp. And so here's Todd Blanche given a chance to say why he was there first. And he never revealed. CNN doesn't realize this, but he never actually revealed in that answer in any way why he was actually there asking those questions.

[Andrew Weissman]

Yes, and exactly he does say that these are questions that America would want to know. But of course he says that no one would expect him to pressure test or which is, I mean, just stop for a moment and think about that. America wants to have softball questions with no follow up so that if she's lying, there's no follow up of somebody who knows the facts to get truthful answers that press her on actual facts. I mean, that is such a preposterous idea. Leaving aside that that is just not the role of a prosecutor to sit there and say, well, I'm just impartial and I'm just going to let her tell her story, but I'm not even going to try to follow up in any way with any contrary facts. I mean, it is truly remarkable that you're hearing this from the number two person in the Department of Justice.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

A CNN interview of Ghislaine Maxwell would have been much tougher than what Todd Blanche put it through. Andrew, please hang on for our next segment because when we come back, we're going to discuss the fact that the worst treasury secretary in history now finds himself in the same trouble tonight that he has tried to create and falsely accused a Federal Reserve member of engaging in. We're gonna discuss that next with Andrew Weissman.

[Laci Mosley]

What's poppin listeners? I'm Laci Mosley, host of the podcast Scam Goddess, the show that's an ode to fraud and all those who practice it. Each week I talk with very special guests about the scammiest scammers of all time. Wanna know about the fake errors? We got em. What about a career con man? We've got them too. Guys that will wine and dine you and then steal all. Oh, you know they are represented because representation matters. I'm joined by guests like Nicole Byer, Ira Madison iii, Conan o', Brien and more. Join the congregation and listen to Scam Goddess wherever you get your podcasts.

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[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Donald Trump might have the most emotionally unstable treasury secretary in history, since he is the only Treasury Secretary who has been repeatedly involved, reportedly in shouting matches in the White House, including threatening to punch people. And today, Bloomberg News reports this about Donald Trump's current Treasury Secretary, Scott Besant. US Treasury Secretary Scott Besant once agreed to occupy two different houses as his principal residence at the same time. Mortgage documents show the same kind of contradictory pledges that that President Donald Trump has been using to try to oust Federal Reserve Governor Lisa Cook. On September 20, 2007, he agreed that a seven bedroom Georgian manor he was buying in Bedford Hills, New York, would be his principal residence over the next year. On the same day, he made the same residency pledge about a beachfront house in Provincetown, Massachusetts. Both agreements were signed by a lawyer, Charles Rich, who had power of attorney to sign on Bessant's behalf. And still with us is Andrew Weissman. And let me just stipulate for the record here, no one like Scott Besant lives in Provincetown year round. That is a beach resort, summer beach resort. So it's just patently ridiculous on its face if you know where one of those houses is. But Andrew here, here he is, he's been very excited about the possibility of getting rid of Lisa Cook for exactly what we find he has done.

[Andrew Weissman]

So I think one thing that's really important for people to know is in order to prove this, it really involves intent. What did the person know and what did they intend? And so just because you have two applications even close in time or even the same day, obviously that is some evidence. But what you're really looking at is what was the intent there? So, for instance, you could imagine Scott Besson saying, well, I didn't look at this. My lawyer did it or someone else filled it out. Obviously, it's also possible, you know, he filled it out and he, in fact, is guilty of this. But there, there are lots of things as a defense lawyer, as a prosecutor, you look at, because it is possible for it just to be a mis mistake. And that's where Lisa Cook has such a, looks like a very, very strong argument on that, because at the same time, she disclosed to the bank that it is not her personal residence. So that sort of being able to, to show that there's a discrepancy in the paperwork because she was telling them that, that this is not what's going to be a principal residence, it really makes it very, very hard for the government to credibly say that she intended to mislead because they have a document that shows she didn't do that. Scott Besant, so far, we don't see that he has done that. So again, this is one where it looks so obviously transparent that this is, to use the President's favorite term, a witch hunt, where you are doing this in a selective way to go after somebody. And all of these other examples. And now Scott Bessens, one just shows how much that is what's going on.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Andrew Weissman, thank you very much for joining us tonight.

[Andrew Weissman]

You're welcome.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Coming up, the head of the Centers for Disease Control, who Robert Kennedy Jr. Fired, told a Senate Committee today that the most dangerous Nepo baby in history is now an extreme public health threat. Senator Ed Markey of Massachusetts, who was in that hearing, will join us next. Children have died under his watch. That is what Dr. Deborah Hurry, CDC's former chief medical officer, told senators today about her former boss, Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy, Jr.

[Dr. Deborah Hurry]

I always believe in optimism and hope, and I would say that was my hope. When he started, I'd read his books and as a transition lead, I was prepared to welcome him. After seeing his Senate Finance testimony and the number of misstatements, seeing what he has asked our scientists to do and to compromise our integrity and the children that have died under his watch, I think he should resign.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Dr. Hurry resigned from the CDC after the agency's director, Dr. Susan Monarz, was fired by Kennedy last month. Both Dr. Hurry and Dr. Monarz testified to the Senate Health, Education, labor and Pensions Committee today.

[Dr. Deborah Hurry]

What was the Secretary's temperament as you pushed back? He was very, he was very upset with me. The temperament was similar to the the Times under Duress during the Senate Finance Committee hearing, if that is helpful. He was, he was extremely animated towards me in that room.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Was the Secretary's thinking and reasoning clear to you during those meetings?

[Dr. Deborah Hurry]

The Secretary was clear in the two things that he was demanding of me, demanding to fire those scientists and demanding of the approved pre approval of the vaccine recommendations. Some of the things that he was talking about were clearly not aligned with the scientific evidence that I knew related to safety and efficacy and placebo controlled trials. And the conversation seemed to change points very quickly. It was hard sometimes to follow the logic that he was putting forward. And again, he was very, very upset and very animated.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Joining us now is Democratic Senator Ed Markey of Massachusetts. He's a member of the Senate Health, Education, labor and Pensions Committee and the Senate Commerce Committee. Senator Markey, were any of the Republican senators in that room today concerned about their own family's health now, their own children's health?

[Senator Ed Markey]

Well, it was hard to identify that concern. There wasn't much evidence to convict them of being concerned. It was still the party line, the Trump line on these issues. And it goes all the way back to January, actually, when Senator Cassidy, the chairman of the committee, elicited a promise from Robert F. Kennedy as a condition of his confirmation that he would not fire the advisory panel on vaccines. As soon as he was confirmed, he fired the advisory panel panel on vaccines. And then when Dr. Susan Monorez was confirmed as the head of the CDC, he then asked her to pre approve the vaccine recommendations of this now packed with his vaccine denial cronies, recommendations on vaccines, and she refused to do so. So that's what this hearing was about today. It was about Dr. Moner and, and Dr. Howery's courage. They're historic health care heroes who were willing to give up their careers in order to make it very clear that Robert F. Kennedy is compromising the recommendation on vaccines. And the Republicans know this. The Republican senators know this. We're down to now one in six parents in the United States not recommending vaccinations for their own children. We're down to 83% compliance. We need 95% compliance in order to have herd immunity in our country. And the Republicans today, there were no Paul Revere's warning of a danger. There was no One backing up Dr. Mona is today. Instead, most of them were still coming in aggressively trying to undermine her credibility.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Senator, as we go forward, short of Democrats winning control of the United States Senate, what can be done to inhibit what Robert Kennedy Jr. Is trying to do?

[Senator Ed Markey]

Well, we're going now be in a massive public education battle because he is lying. He is allowing for the spread of misinformation and too many parents are already accepting it. And there are going to be diseases, deaths, despair that is going to have us revisit, eradicate diseases that existed when you and I were young. Measles, mumps, rubella, hepatitis B all the way down the line, things that were largely eradicated. And we're going to be in a major public health information battle. And it is going to be incumbent upon news media, politicians to stand up and to fight. And by the way, all of the medical organizations in America are fighting this policy which Robert F. Kennedy is seeking to put in place. We are in a battle right now for the public health of our country. We've seen an expansion of life expectancy from age 48 to age 78 in just the last hundred years because of vaccines, because of public health initiatives. And we are in a historic battle. The Democrats are going to take on the Republicans on the continuing resolution in the next couple of weeks over health care issues. We're going to raise the concerns about the premiums that individuals are able to receive to help with a subsidy to lower the cost of their premiums on Medicaid issues, on other issues. But at the end of the day, Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Must resign. We have to turn him into a health care pariah in order to make him a detriment to the Trump administration. And I think that's the only way ultimately that we're going to save the lives of children and adults in our country.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Massachusetts Senator Ed Markey, thank you very much for joining us tonight.

[Senator Ed Markey]

Thank you.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

We'll be right back. Senator Ed Markey gets tonight's last word.

[Laci Mosley]

What's poppin, listeners? I'm Lacy Mosley, host of the podcast Scam Goddess, the show that's an ode to fraud and all those who practice it. Each week I talk with very special guests about the scammiest scammers of all time. Wanna know about the fake?

[Dr. Deborah Hurry]

Eric?

[Laci Mosley]

We got em. What about a career con man? We've got them too, guys that will wine and dine you and then steal all your coins. Oh, you know, they are represented because representation matters. I'm joined by guests like Nicole Byer, Ira Madison iii, Conan o' Brien and more. Join the congregation and listen to Scam Goddess. Wherever you get your podcasts.