Lawrence: Trump was 'on the verge of outright insanity' in deranged speech to military commanders

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell

Episode: Trump was 'on the verge of outright insanity' in deranged speech to military commanders

Date: October 1, 2025
Host: Lawrence O'Donnell, MSNBC

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Overview

This episode of The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell focuses on Donald Trump's erratic and unprecedented public behavior, particularly during a speech to U.S. military commanders, which Lawrence characterizes as bordering on "outright insanity." Drawing from his own political and television experience, Lawrence explores the seriousness of the situation, the military's reaction, and Trump's concurrent use of manipulated AI videos targeting political opponents. The episode also delves into urgent current stories: the threat of a government shutdown over healthcare, significant new reporting on Trump immigration advisor Tom Homan, and new revelations about Alan Dershowitz’s conduct in the Jeffrey Epstein scandal. Key guests include Jen Psaki, Senator Mark Kelly, Congressman Brendan Boyle, reporter Ken Dilanian, and Congressman Ro Khanna.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Trump’s Disturbing AI Manipulation and Social Media Attacks

• [01:03] Lawrence describes Trump’s recent posting of an AI-manipulated video featuring Hakeem Jeffries and Chuck Schumer, a follow-up to previous night’s similarly “perverse” video.
• [02:37] Jen Psaki: Both O’Donnell and Psaki emphasize editorial decisions not to air these videos to avoid “lifting up this disgusting, perverse” behavior.
• [03:08] Lawrence: Highlights this is not standard political behavior, even among the least qualified politicians, calling it “madness.”

Quote:
"It's just all out madness by Donald Trump at this point."
—Lawrence O'Donnell, [03:08]

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2. Trump’s Speech to Military Commanders: A Moment of Crisis

• [04:14] Lawrence frames the President’s public appearance not only as an embarrassment but as a genuine national emergency: “the president…proved that he is mentally incapable and emotionally incapable of fulfilling his constitutional duties.”
• [08:00] He describes how generals and admirals were forced to listen to what he calls Trump’s “stream of consciousness madness, complete with hallucinations and an endless stream of pathological lies."
• He mocks Trump's appearance and the spectacle (“a clown…in a homemade brew of orange makeup”) but stresses the deeper danger: the Commander in Chief is "lost."

Quote:
“There is no president of the United States as we knew it. There is no functioning intelligence, no functioning judgment mechanism within the mind of the current holder of the title president of the United States.”
—Lawrence O'Donnell, [05:10]

• [10:13] Ro Khanna, Mark Kelly: The show cuts to comments about hypocrisy and disarray within Trump’s command structure, highlighting the Secretary of Defense’s and Trump’s own lack of credibility.

• [12:41] Trump attempts humor about the silence in the room, which falls flat and is seen as evidence of the military’s discomfort.

Quote:
“I've never walked into a room so silent before.”
—Donald Trump, [12:41]

• [13:25] Lawrence: Observes, “They didn't have a good time. They didn’t applaud,” noting that the audience recognized Trump’s lies about military and war.

• [14:57] Lawrence highlights Trump’s verbal slips, suggesting cognitive decline (“We blew it out to kingdom [instead of ‘kingdom come’]”).

Quote:
“That word combination is lost to his failing brain now. And there is also the possibility that his failing brain thinks that he actually did say kingdom come when he only said kingdom, because that's the way brain failure works.”
—Lawrence O'Donnell, [14:57]

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3. Military Observers’ Perspective and Response

Guest: Senator Mark Kelly (D-AZ)

• [20:57] Kelly underscores the unprecedented nature of the event and the concern among military professionals.
• [22:05] Sees no legitimate military purpose for the gathering; critiques the Secretary of Defense (Pete Hegseth) for “plugging his book” and wasting commanders’ time.
• [24:06] Kelly says if he were a commander in the room, he’d be “really concerned,” but notes the professionalism and political neutrality of the military are sources of hope.

Quote:
“It’s not too hard to figure out, Lawrence, were they laughing with him or at him? And the silence in the room at the beginning of that speech was deafening.”
—Mark Kelly, [24:06]

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4. Looming Government Shutdown & Healthcare Crisis

Guest: Representative Brendan Boyle (D-PA)

• [28:34] Boyle highlights that the fight is simply over Republican efforts to increase healthcare costs and Democratic opposition.
• [29:20] Offers tangible examples: constituents facing dramatic rises in premiums if changes go through (e.g., a couple in Mike Johnson’s district seeing nearly $20,000 increases).
• [29:42] Boyle underlines the urgent, real-world stakes: “premiums are set to rise... by a dramatic amount, literally beginning in a matter of hours.”

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5. Tom Homan Bribery Investigation

Guest: Ken Dilanian (MSNBC)

• [32:42] Dilanian reports on the ongoing DOJ investigation into Tom Homan, Trump immigration advisor, accepting $50,000 in cash from undercover agents, suggesting conspiracy to commit bribery.
• [34:30] Notes that Homan has not denied these allegations nor accounted for the money.

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6. Alan Dershowitz and the Epstein Files

Lawrence O'Donnell’s Monologue:

• [35:00+] Lawrence harshly critiques Alan Dershowitz, Epstein’s legal defender, for slandering survivors and deceiving friends and prosecutors about Epstein’s crimes.
• [39:41] Congressman Ro Khanna denounces Dershowitz’s portrayal of Epstein’s victims as “prostitutes,” expressing both disgust and advocacy for survivors.

Quote:
“This is why they're so desperate for justice. It has actually nothing to do even with Trump. They've been crying and talking about this for two decades and they keep getting dismissed.”
—Ro Khanna, [40:41]

• [42:34] Khanna is optimistic about bipartisan support for making the “Epstein files” public, anticipating a significant Republican defection in the House on the issue.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I'm not even sure he is any longer sane enough to have a logical distraction reason for doing these things. This might just be Donald Trump's pure insanity speaking with no strategic intent whatsoever.”
  —Lawrence O’Donnell, [03:49]
• “He told them Ukraine is the worst war since World War II. Everyone sitting in that room knows that … The war Donald Trump avoided by getting a doctor’s excuse, the Vietnam War... killed over 4 million people."
  —Lawrence O’Donnell, [13:25]
• “I ain't scared. I'm from Brooklyn. We get down like Shirley Chisholm, unbought and unbossed at all times. So, Mr. President, allow me to reintroduce myself. I'm the House Democratic leader.”
  —Hakeem Jeffries, [26:49]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Time | Segment Description | |-----------|-----------------------------------------------------| | 01:03 | Discussion of AI-manipulated videos by Trump | | 03:08 | Madness of Trump’s online conduct | | 04:14 | The Trump emergency: president’s mental capacity | | 08:00 | Generals/admirals forced to hear Trump’s “madness” | | 12:41 | Trump’s awkward address to military leaders | | 14:57 | Evidence of cognitive decline in Trump’s speech | | 20:57 | Senator Kelly’s reaction to the speech | | 24:06 | Kelly on military silence & professionalism | | 28:34 | Rep. Boyle on health care battle and shutdown | | 32:42 | Ken Dilanian on Tom Homan bribery investigation | | 35:00+ | Exposé on Alan Dershowitz and Epstein files | | 39:41 | Ro Khanna on survivor advocacy and file release | | 42:34 | Timeline for potential House vote on Epstein files |

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Tone & Takeaways

The episode maintains a sharply critical, sometimes incredulous tone regarding Donald Trump’s behavior and the enabling silence of the Republican Party. Lawrence O’Donnell weaves together firsthand accounts, policy analysis, and pointed personal reflections from guests to paint a picture of an administration teetering on the edge of collapse—both legally and morally. The discussions amplify the urgency of defending institutional integrity, protecting vulnerable citizens, and maintaining the independence and professionalism of the U.S. military in the face of political chaos.

For listeners interested in the health of American democracy, the rule of law, and high-profile political scandals, this episode is a bracing, comprehensive examination of multiple ongoing emergencies.

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Transcript

[Ted Danson]

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[Donald Trump]

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[Ted Danson]

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[Lawrence O'Donnell]

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[Ted Danson]

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[Jen Psaki]

The Last Word with Lawrence O' Donnell starts right now. Hey, Lawrence.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Hey, Jen. Donald Trump has done it again. It's the same thing he did around this time last night when he posted that horrific political pornography about Hakeem Jeffries and Chuck Schumer creating the words in Chuck Schumer's mouth. Just utter insanity and perversity by Donald Trump. Tonight, within the last hour or so, he did it again. He took what Hakeem Jeffries said on this program in response to that last night and used a clip of this show. I'm silently in it with Hakeem Jeffries speaking. He didn't change the words that Hakeem Jeffries was saying, as far as I can tell on it, but he changed Congressman Jeffries appearance in the same way that he did last night. And I'm not going to show it. I understand, because it's from the President of the United States. There's a certain news value to it. I also understand that anyone out there who wants to see it can see it. It's all over Twitter, it's all over social media, and it will be. But I've just made the judgment that I'm not going to advance Donald Trump's perverse political pornography on this program during this hour. That's not a judgment about other hours doing it and showing it. I get it. We struggle through this, I think, every day. You know, what has news value from Donald Trump? What is pure madness. What should we show? What should we not show? And Here we are again tonight.

[Jen Psaki]

You know, we made a decision not to show it either. I've learned a lot of things from Lawrence o' Donnell and others about what not to show. And you're right, everybody can see it out there. But we don't need to lift up this disgusting, perverse way that Donald Trump is hand handling this moment. And you and I have been through many, many shutdowns. You've covered many. I've lived through many. You've lived through some yourself. This is not how any president handles people from the other party. And that's just important to restate. Even though I think most people watching know that it's how.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

It's not how any member of either party has ever dealt with this. Not just president. I mean, the lowest ranking, stupidest member of the House of Representatives or Senate has never done anything like what Donald Trump has done in the last 24 hours on social media and what he continues to do. And it is just allit's just all out madness by Donald Trump at this point.

[Jen Psaki]

And as you've talked about, it's because he is about to take away millions of healthcare from millions of Americans. Doesn't know how to fix it. Maybe he doesn't want to fix it. Maybe he doesn't even want to reopen the government. Who knows? So instead he's posting disgusting things about the leader of the Democratic Party in the House.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

You know, Jen, I'm not even sure he is any longer sane enough to have a logical distraction reason for doing these things. This might just be Donald Trump's pure insanity speaking with no strategic intent whatsoever. But we've got to get to it in this hour. Jen, thanks for, thanks for leading us off.

[Jen Psaki]

Thanks, Lawrence. I'll be watching.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Thank you. Well, this hour is actually so packed with urgent news of the day that we won't be able to get to Donald Trump's continued cover up of the Epstein files until our last segment tonight. And that is when you will learn that Alan Dershowitz is actually much worse than you might have thought. There are people who are still fans of Alan Dershowitz, as I once was, even though he appears to have switched from a previously honorable career defending the constitutional processes of the United States to defending Donald Trump's attack on those processes. Alan Dershowitz spends his summers now complaining about being shunned by decent people on Martha's Vineyard island who want nothing to do with him for very good reason. Criminal defense work for a lawyer is a fulfillment of a constitutional right that all of us have to defend ourselves in court. It is an honorable profession. But the best criminal defense lawyers never lie for their clients, most of whom. Most of whose clients are actually guilty. And the lawyers know that, but they don't lie for them. And that is why Alan Dershowitz is not one of our best criminal defense lawyers. Alan Dershowitz was denied service this summer at a farmer's market, and that was before they knew what was revealed about him in some of the Epstein files obtained last week by Bloomberg news. The files show that Alan Dershowitz accused the children who were raped by Jeffrey Epstein of being prostitutes. He said, and these are his exact words, they don't feel harmed. That is when Alan Dershowitz was the biggest profiteer in the Jeffrey Epstein sex trafficking ring. Because Alan Dershowitz as a criminal defense lawyer, was paid $4 million by Jeffrey Epstein for defending him against what were truthful accusations of raping children and sex trafficking. Criminal defense lawyer is one of the most honorable professions that exists in this country when it is done properly. Alan Dershowitz's lies for Jeffrey Epstein in writing now sink him to a lower level of disgr where not being able to buy a sandwich on Martha's vineyard is not penalty enough for the lies he told about Jeffrey Epstein in writing, Quote, no, there was never any underage sex. Absolutely none. Jeffrey is a good person. We'll bring you more of the despicable lies of Alan Dershowitz about his dear friend, not just his client, but his dear friend Jeffrey Epstein at the end of this hour, including his response to Bloomberg reporters who discovered those emails with Alan Dershowitz's lies in writing. But first, the United States of America is facing an emergency tonight. And no, it is not the emergency of the clock ticking to midnight without legislated funding for the American government. We've seen that clock tick to midnight before on nights like this. The emergency of the United States of America is facing tonight is an emergency the United States of America has created for the world. And that emergency is that the president of the United States, in his public appearance today, proved that he is mentally incapable and emotionally incapable of fulfilling his constitutional duties as President of the United States. In other words, there is no president of the United States as we knew it. There is no functioning intelligence, no functioning judgment mechanism within the mind of the current holder of the title president of the United States. And that person is also the holder of the nuclear codes that could destroy the planet in seconds. And he is, much to the horror of the commanding officers of the American military who Listen to him today, the commander in chief of the most powerful military in the history of the world. Much of the news media made the mistake of believing that all of the American commanding generals and admirals were being summoned to Quantico, Virginia, to listen to the small man of small experience who is currently the Secretary of Defense. That was obviously a fraudulent reason for demanding that all the generals and admirals fly from all over the world leaving their command posts to listen to a speech. It was obviously always just a setup for Donald Trump to harangue that audience with what turned out to be stream of consciousness madness, complete with hallucinations and an endless stream of pathological lies. A group of officers who earned their jobs in ways that Donald Trump never could had to sit there and listen to a clown who stood before them in what appears to be a homemade brew of orange makeup slathered all over his face because he thinks it makes him look better. And I guess maybe we should accept Donald Trump's judgment about that one thing that the madman orange makeup he slathers on himself makes him look better. Maybe it does, we don't know. Maybe the actual sight of the actual color of his 79 year old skin is much worse than the orange clown confection that he chooses, but we don't know. Or maybe the orange junk on his face is yet another proof that the man has no capacity to make a judgment about anything, including the way he looks. Never mind nuclear weapons. What was he thinking backstage when his Secretary of Defense, who had to promise to stop drinking to get confirmed by the Senate, insulted all of the commanding officers in the room with this kind of idiocy. It's completely unacceptable to see fat generals and admirals in the halls of the.

[Ro Khanna]

Pentagon and leading commands around the country and the world. It's a bad look.

[Mark Kelly]

It is bad.

[Ro Khanna]

And it's not who we are.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Okay, Pete, how about fat presidents? How about a president who has been fat every day of his political career? Is that a bad look? All of those generals can button their uniform jackets. All of those admirals can, every one of them. So there's the Secretary of Defense, who may or may not be managing his reported drinking problem, telling all of those commanding officers that they better never look as bad as Donald Trump, who can't even button his suit coat jacket. There was some suspense in the room today when Donald Trump was giving his speech. There was no suspense about would he cross the line that you never cross with the military as president and get political. Everyone knew he was going to do that. Everyone knew that he doesn't know there's a line. Everyone knew he was going to foolishly waste the admirals and generals time telling them about how many swing states he wanted. And of course he did. The suspense in the room was whether the very, very tired, almost sleepy 79 year old man at the microphone was going to make it through that 1 hour and 11 minute speech. And there were times in the middle of a sentence that it would seem like he just might drop right there, might not even finish that sentence. And what he seemed to be showing to the generals and the world is that he might not have the physical strength to make it through the three years, three months and 20 days left of his presidency. Is that what has given J.D. vance such a spring in his step lately? Is that why the Vice President looks so happy these days? Donald Trump has never looked physically weaker or wearier than he did today. Weaker in every sense of that word, physically, mentally, because Donald Trump is uneducable. He still doesn't understand why he walked into a room of military commanders today and faced silence.

[Donald Trump]

Thank you very much, Pete. Great job. You're doing too. Fantastic job. I've never walked into a room so silent before. This is very. Don't laugh, don't laugh. You're not allowed to do that. You know what? Just have a good time. And if you want to applaud, you applaud. And if you want to do anything you want, you can do anything you want. And if you don't like what I'm saying, you can leave the room. Of course, there goes your rank, there goes your future. But you just feel nice and loose, okay? Because we're all on the same team. And I was told that, sir, you won't hear, you won't hear a murmur in the room. I said we had to loosen these guys up a little bit, so you just have a good time.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

He didn't loosen them up. They didn't have a good time. They didn't applaud. Politely applauded. Only at the end. Donald Trump lied to the commanders repeatedly and they knew it. He told them Ukraine is the worst war since World War II. Everyone sitting in that room knows that. The war Donald Trump avoided by getting a doctor's excuse, the Vietnam War, which in Vietnam is correctly called the American war, killed over 4 million people in what was then South Vietnam, North Vietnam. And as the United States spread the war into Cambodia and Laos, the war crossed those borders was much worse than what you're seeing in Ukraine. And he insulted the commanders with his lies. About war. He told them that Portland, Oregon quote, looks like a war zone. Spoken by someone who has no idea what a war zone looks like. Everyone in his audience knows what a war zone looks like. Everyone in his audience today knew that Donald Trump was lying. Donald Trump was telling the kind of lie that should concern his doctors and his family. When he said Portland looks like a war zone, he hallucinated dire that has never happened. And his 79 year old brain cells couldn't find words that were right there, just out of reach, like this.

[Donald Trump]

The Iran, nuclear power, the Iran, all of the great power that we thought existed. We blew it out to kingdom. We took advantage of it.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

We blew it out to kingdom. Of course, what he wanted to say was we blew it out to kingdom come. That is the phrase he grew up with. That is the phrase he has known most of his life. But that word combination is lost to his failing brain now. And there is also the possibility that his failing brain thinks that he actually did say kingdom come when he only said kingdom, because that's the way brain failure works. And an obviously unhealthy 79 year old man struggling and failing to make sense about anything. Generals flew across oceans, admirals across the world to come and listen to the most ridiculous person who has ever stood before them to discuss. Walking downstairs, we were not respected with Biden.

[Donald Trump]

They looked at him falling downstairs every day. Every day the guy's falling downstairs said, it's not our president, we can't have it. I'm very careful, you know, when I walk downstairs like I'm on stairs, like these stairs, I'm very, I walk very slowly. Nobody has to set a record. Just try not to fall because it doesn't work out well. A few of our presidents have fallen and it became a part of their legacy. We don't want that. Walk nice and easy. You're not have, you don't have to set any record. Be cool. Be cool when you walk down, but don't, don't bop down the stairs. So one thing with Obama, I had zero respect for him as a president, but he would bop down those stairs. I've never said, da da, da, da da da, bop, bop bop. He'd go down the stairs, wouldn't hold on. I said, it's great. I don't want to do it. I guess I could do it, but eventually bad things are going to happen and it only takes once and imagine.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Crossing 10 time zones to hear that this is an emergency for the United States of America and the world and those generals and Admirals know that. They know that their commander in chief is lost. They saw him today. They listened to him today, and it was unlike anything they have ever listened to before in their lives. It is much worse than the first version of Donald Trump they saw in his first term as president. What they saw was something much worse than a president falling down stairs, and they all know it. They were forced to listen to the most ignorant man in the room tell them that he is the first person in the world to figure out how to stop wars.

[Donald Trump]

The Department of War. I love the name. I think it's so great. I think it stops wars. The Department of War is going to stop wars.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

He believes it. Imagine standing, talking to graduates of West Point, graduates of Annapolis, graduates of the Air Force Academy, and telling them that the name Department of War, which is still not the legal name of the Defense Department, will stop wars. No one in that room has ever heard a stupider statement in their lives. They know the president is not well. He looked and sounded physically drained today. He also sounded deranged and was hallucinating. And the military commanders in that room today all have to be wondering tonight just how much more dangerous their jobs are now that they've just seen how lost and sick their commander in chief is. Donald Trump complained to his military audience today that people make up things that he says.

[Donald Trump]

And it's hard. You know, they make up a statement and they said, you say it. We had 25 people that said. He never said that.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Donald Trump actually complained to that military audience today that people make up things that he says. And he said that the day after, he completely made up words to put in Chuck Schumer's mouth through AI that he then posted on social media around this time last night, completely changing through AI the words that Chuck Schumer said after meeting with Donald Trump in the White House. And in that AI video, Donald Trump made Chuck Schumer almost as profane as Donald Trump is publicly, which, of course, you know, is not Chuck Schumer. Donald Trump used manipulated video. He falsely dressed the Democratic leader, the House Representative Sikeem Jeffries, in a Mexican sombrero. No Democrat has ever done that to Donald Trump. It is inconceivable that a President of the United States would put out a fake video of the Senate Minority Leader and the House Minority Leader. That would not happen. Could not happen. But because Donald Trump has lost his mind, and Republicans in Congress accept that Donald Trump has lost his mind, the Republican Party cheers on his public madness. And because not one Republican found Fault with the ugly and insane video that Donald Trump posted last night, he has decided to create and post another one tonight. And this one includes me. It's a clip of this program last night of Hakeem Jeffries responding to the racist video that Donald Trump created about him last night. And this one tonight is another demonstration of the depths of Donald Trump's depravity, his perversity, a deep and unyielding perversity beyond anything we have ever seen in American politics. The President of the United States is now a weary, snarling viper of political perversity. And every commander in the American military has now seen that and knows that. Leading off our discussion tonight is former Navy pilot Senator Mark Kelly of Arizona. He's a member of the Senate Armed Services Committee and Senate Intelligence Committee. Senator, I just want to open your microphone for you to react to what Donald Trump had to say to the military commanders today.

[Mark Kelly]

Well, Lawrence, my first reaction is there's no precedent for anything like this. After 9, 11 other times in our country's history when there were even major events, a president or a SecDef didn't call all the admirals and generals to a meeting in an auditorium. These are incredibly professional individuals, these admirals and generals that were in that room today. And this was certainly a new experience for them. And, you know, to see, you know, firsthand, I think some of the, you know, things that they have heard or seen on TV from a president, I imagine was rather concerning. I haven't spoken to many of them, but I did have one conversation with one general today, and there was a lot of head nodding. You know, often there's other. There are other people in the room, but I imagine that a meeting like this was very concerning for the men and women that run our military.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Did you see any military reason for that meeting today?

[Mark Kelly]

I mean, Pete Hegseth, who has no business being in this job, he plugged his book. I mean, that's a personal reason. Donald Trump showed up at the end of the meeting. I mean, he obviously wanted to address this group personally and share his thoughts, many of which were incoherent. The stuff that Pete Hegseth spoke about, the parts of the speech I saw, which was, you know, the beginning portion of the speech where he called admirals and generals fat, talked about how often they need to exercise, talked about wokeness and warrior ethos, by the way, Lawrence, and for your entire audience, we have the most effective and lethal fighting force that this planet has ever seen. And if you want to continue that, what you can't do is be spending time making soldiers, sailors, airmen, marines, march in parades or pick up garbage in the Streets of Washington D.C. and other cities or show up at meetings like this one that have no military purpose at all. I think the Secretary of Defense was trying to just show his ability to summon. I think it makes him feel better about his position and his job. And I think history will look back at this as a real event and it's not going to be looked upon fondly.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

If you had been sitting there as a military commander, what would you be thinking tonight? I mean, these are the people who through that chain of command, Donald Trump to Hegseth, that's where your orders could come from someday.

[Mark Kelly]

Yeah, they go directly from the Commander in Chief to the Secretary of Defense. They bypass the chairman of the Joint Chiefs. That is the chain of command to the combatant commanders. I would be really concerned. You mentioned them laughing. I mean, it's not too hard to figure out, Lawrence, were they laughing with him or at him? And the silence in the room at the beginning of that speech was deafening. You don't see that. But I also think it shows and it demonstrates the silence at the beginning of that meeting when the President came on stage shows the professionalism and the non political nature of of the United States military. They don't want to be part of this. That's why they didn't say anything. You know, it's hard for some of them to hold the laughter when you have a president that at times I think it's fair to say was incoherent. But we have an incredibly professional military and I hope the American people take some comfort in knowing that most of those people in the room are not signing up for the political nature of the military that both the Secretary of Defense and the Commander in Chief want. I have a lot of confidence in those men and women in the room. I know many of them, they do not want to be a part of this. And you know, some of them are going to be challenged here. I hope not. But I think over the next three and a half years they're going to be challenged in, you know, how do they push back? How do they speak truth to power in an unprecedented time?

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Senator Mark Kelly, thank you very much for starting off our coverage tonight.

[Mark Kelly]

Thank you, Lawrence.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And coming up, federal government operations are on the verge of shutting down because Donald Trump and Republicans want to take health care away from Americans and Democrats want to protect those Americans. That's it. That's the story. Congressman Brendan Boyle, a member of The House Ways and Mains Committee, who knows every detail of the federal budget as the top Democrat on the Budget Committee, will join us next year. And later, a special last word in this hour about Alan Dershowitz and the lies he told for his very dear friend Jeffrey Epstein. Earlier tonight, House Democratic leader Hakeem Jeffries said Donald Trump.

[Hakeem Jeffries]

Posted this AI video featuring myself and Chuck Schumer. It was a fake video. It was a disgusting video. It was a racist video. It was unbecoming of anyone purporting to be the President of the United States of America. But y', all, I ain't scared. I'm from Brooklyn. We get down like Shirley Chisholm, unbought and unbossed at all times. So, Mr. President, allow me to reintroduce myself. I'm the House Democratic leader. The House Democratic caucus is 217 members strong. We're part of a separate and co equal branch of government. That means we don't work for Donald Trump. We don't work for J.D. vance, we don't work for billionaire donors. We work for all of you. The American people.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Turning on coverage now is Democratic Congressman Brendan Boyle of Pennsylvania. He's the top Democrat on the House Budget Committee. He's a member of the House Ways and Means Committee. Congressman Boyle, no one knows more about the details of the budget than this but than you do. But everything I've seen simply, it's very simple. Republicans want health care costs to increase for Americans and Democrats want to prevent that increase. That's the standoff. Yeah.

[Brendan Boyle]

Good to be with you, Lawrence. It really is as simple as that. To take you back just two months ago in what they used to call their big beautiful bill that is now so deeply unpopular, they've waved the white flag and have attempted to reinvent a new name for it. Unfortunately, the facts of the bill still remain that it will prompt the biggest loss of health care in American history and an increase in premiums for tens of millions of Americans. More those increases begin literally within a couple hours from now. So that is what we on the Democratic side are fighting for, to attempt even at this last minute to stop these increases from occurring and to stop these dramatic losses of health care from beginning.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

One of the examples you've put out is in Speaker Mike Johnson's Louisiana district, a 60 year old couple earning 82,000 a year, their health care premiums will rise by almost $20,000 by 300% because of what their congressman is doing.

[Mark Kelly]

Yeah.

[Brendan Boyle]

Ironically, Mike Johnson has one of the largest Medicaid populations of any district nationwide. But I do want to stress that, yes, this is dramatic and will be awful if you're on Medicaid, will be awful if you're on one of the Obamacare exchanges, will be awful if you're on medic care. But it's actually the health care of all of us, regardless of how you obtain it. Because even for those of us who might not be on one of those programs I just mentioned, premiums are set to rise and by a dramatic amount, literally beginning in a matter of hours. So that is what is at stake. That is why we have a sense of urgency. That is why we can't wait three months or six months or nine months. This is a fight for right here, right now. And truly, this is the last best opportunity for us to stop these dramatic changes to our healthcare from taking effect.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Congressman Brendan Boyle, thank you very much for joining us tonight.

[Brendan Boyle]

Thank you.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And coming up, MSNBC's Kendallanean will join us with his exclusive new reporting on the Homan files as Democrats demand the release of the FBI video recording of Tom Homan, Donald Trump's border czar, accepting $50,000 in cash from undercover FBI agents. That's next, following the exclusive Investigative reporting by MSNBC's Carol Linigan Kyndilanian that Donald Trump's so called border czar, Tom Holland was recorded by undercover FBI agents last year accepting $50,000 in cash in exchange for for promises to help obtain lucrative government contracts. Democrats on the Senate Homeland Security Committee are demanding that the attorney general turn over any audio or video recordings from the homan files by October 8th. And they are demanding information about Mr. Homan's apparent conflicts of interest and recent contracts that have reportedly been awarded to his previous clients and companies. For example, Mr. Homan previously worked as a consultant for the Geo Group, a private prison corporation that is also a leading contractor for ice. Since the start of the Trump administration, Geo Group has been awarded several new contracts, including a 15 year contract valued at $1 billion for a detention facility in New Jersey. Additionally, media Reporting indicates that Mr. Homan played a key part in hiring a former Geo Group executive to a top ICE position that oversees contracts for immigrant detention centers. MSNBC's Carol Lennig and Ken Delaney and have new reporting about how Tom Homan came to the attention of FBI undercover agents. And joining us now is Ken Delaney, an MSNBC justice and intelligence correspondent. Ken, bring us up to date on your new reporting about how it all started.

[Ted Danson]

Great to be with you, Lawrence. So the FBI was conducting a separate investigation. We're not entirely sure what that was about, but there were undercover agents involved, and they were dealing with a guy named Julian Calderas, who was a former ICE official who had worked for Tom Homan in the Obama administration. And according to a document that we've seen, and according to multiple sources, Calderas told these undercover agents who were posing as businessmen that Tom Homan could get them contracts in a future Trump administration if they paid him a million dollars. And there were a series of meetings. This was first broached back in 2023. And there were a series of meetings and negotiations all the way up to September 2024, when that seminal meeting happened, where the document says, and the sources say, Tom Homan was handed a bag of $50,000 in cash. Calderas was also given $10,000 at that meeting, again, according to the sources and documents. We reached Calderas on the phone. Carol did. And he said he didn't know anything about what we were asking him and that he wanted to talk to his lawyer, and then he never got back to us. Holman insists, of course, that he did nothing illegal. The White House says that this new reporting doesn't change anything. But what it does show, Lawrence, is that there were people inside the Justice Department who thought they could charge Homan right at the time he accepted that cash with conspiracy to commit bribery. And the presence of another potential co conspirator sort of fleshes that out, because some legal scholars pointed out you can't conspire with undercover federal agents. And that's true. But now we know that there were two people at that meeting. And of course, Homan was promising, according to the document, these FBI agents, that he could get them contracts in a future Trump administration.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And in Carroll's question about did you take the $10,000, he apparently refused to answer that in your reporting.

[Ted Danson]

That's right. So he didn't answer that. And Homan has not said, as you've pointed out to this day, he has not denied taking the $50,000. He's not said taking. If he did take it, what happened to it? A White House spokesperson denied that once, but they haven't repeated that because according to our sources and according to this document, it happened.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Lawrence Homan has not denied a single word in your reporting the way I've been tracking it so far. Kendall, Nian, thank you very much for joining us tonight.

[Mark Kelly]

You bet.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And coming up, Alan Dershowitz has sunk to a new low in lying for and about his dear friend Jeffrey Epstein. That's next with House Oversight Committee member Congressman Ro Khanna. You might need to revise your opinion of sex trafficker and rapist Jeffrey Epstein's criminal defense lawyer, Alan Dershowitz, now that Bloomberg News has obtained more than 18,000 emails sent to and from Jeffrey Epstein. The emails show just how low Alan Dershowitz was willing to go to protect his. His friend, his dear friend, Jeffrey Epstein. While Jeffrey Epstein was raping children and sex trafficking young girls, one of Alan Dershowitz's Harvard Law School student research assistants named Mitch Weber helped with the Epstein criminal defense. The first time Jeffrey Epstein had to deal with a criminal investigation that ended in a very easy plea deal arranged by Alan Dershowitz. Bloomberg reports that Mitch Weber, quote, took shorthand notes during a February 2006 meeting with Epstein's legal defense team and two members of the Palm Beach County State Attorney's office and a detective. These girls are self described prostitutes. They don't feel harmed and they're out for money, Alan Dershowitz said, according to a memo from Weber that said it paraphrased his notes. So there's Alan Dershowitz calling the children raped by Jeffrey Epstein prostitutes. There is Alan Dershowitz calling the women. Now survivors that you saw gathered at the United States Capitol at the invitation of Congressman Ro Khanna. Prostitutes. They're all prostitutes. According to Alan Dershowitz, who prostituted himself for his dear friend Jeffrey Epstein. Jeffrey Epstein was not just Alan Dershowitz's client. Jeffrey Epstein was not just a profit center for Alan Dershowitz, who became the single biggest profiteer of Jeffrey Epstein's Epstein's sex trafficking scheme through the $4 million in legal fees that Alan Dershowitz got from that sex trafficking scheme. If there were no sex trafficking scheme, Alan Dershowitz would have been paid nothing because criminal Jeffrey Epstein wouldn't have needed a criminal lawyer. It is one thing to represent your client vigorously during a criminal defense, but no criminal defense lawyer is sanctioned to lie about his client. Alan Dershowitz went far beyond criminal defense and sent an email letter to Jeffrey Epstein's friends, who were also friends of Alan Dershowitz, to try to rehabilitate Jeffrey Epstein's reputation with his friends. Now, there is nothing legal about the letter that Alan Dershowitz sent to those friends, and it includes the worst lies of Alan Dershowitz's long life. Bloomberg News reports. Alan Dershowitz wrote, I am writing this letter to Jeffrey's close friends as one of his close friends, not as a lawyer. Read a draft of a letter in September 2006. No, there was Never any underage sex. Absolutely none. That is a lie. That is Ellen Dershowitz telling a lie in writing about his close friend Jeffrey Epstein to Alan Dershowitz's other close friends. The Dershowitz letter about his dear friend Jeffrey Epstein continued saying, I know that you wish him well, and I'm sure that as this too will pass, we can all help him bring this difficult time to a forgiving close. When the full story finally comes out, the world will learn what we already know, that Jeffrey is a good person who does many good things. The world has learned that Jeffrey Epstein was not a good person. That lying letter was signed cordially Alan Dershowitz. And with that letter, the world has learned what kind of person Alan Dershowitz is. When Bloomberg reporters asked Alan Dershowitz about that letter last week, he told them he does not recall the letter. I do not recall is the lawyer's favorite way of not telling the truth. Joining us now is Democratic Congressman Ro Khanna of California. He's a member of the House Oversight Committee. Congressman Khanna, this is what you've. This is the wall you've been trying to knock down that Alan Dershowitz was building for years with the lie that these children were prostitutes. The women who came as survivors to the Capitol. Alan Dershowitz was calling prostitutes. And that's the kind of lie that got Jeffrey Epstein as far as he went.

[Ro Khanna]

It's just disgusting. Maybe it's because I've met these women and survivors. I mean, for them, him to be calling them prostitutes here, they are so courageous telling their story. And you know what? We're going to actually be having more of these survivors on October 7th. They're going to be coming. That's when we're going to get Adelita Grijalvo's 218th vote. The speaker has said that she's going to be sworn in then, by the way, thanks to the advocacy of people telling the speaker, you can't delay it, and more of these women are going to tell their stories, and the American people are going to see how offensive it is what Dershowitz is doing. And that's why we need this to come out. Look at what the women have been dealing with for two decades.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Alan Dershowitz says he's saying to prosecutors back then, at the first attempt to prosecute Jeffrey Epstein, the girls don't feel harmed. You met them. We heard them. We heard them speaking on television. You spoke to them in private. We could feel what the harm they felt from the distance through the television. But you were with them.

[Ro Khanna]

This is why they are so desperate for the files to come out. This is why they're so desperate for justice. It has actually nothing to do even with Trump. They've been crying and talking about this for two decades and they keep getting dismissed. They get be labeled prostitutes. They have been discarded by our society and for the first time they feel heard. They're in tears when they talk. Lawrence, it's not. I have become more of a advocate since I've met them, just with a passion. I mean, they were wrong. And this makes me want to fight even harder because this is what they've been hearing for the last 15 years.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

One of the prosecutors who was putting together that easy deal for Jeffrey Epstein because of Alan Dershowitz's lies is Alex Acosta, who has testified to the committee. We don't have that testimony publicly yet, but this is the kind of information that was being fed to him when he was apparently letting Jeffrey Epstein get off easy.

[Ro Khanna]

It was a plea deal. I mean, for raping underage girls and telling underage girls, go recruit junior high and high school students knowing they would be raped. He got a light sentence where he could go sleeping in his own house and for one year. And that was Acosta who was part of that. And all of this needs to come out. There are two parts of the COVID up, Lawrence, here. One is the COVID up of who else were these young girls farmed out to? But there is also a deeper cover up is who all knew that Jeffrey Epstein had raped young girls and covered for him and hid things for him. And you see what Dershowitz is doing and you see all the friends that he was writing to. And it's a disgusting system that people knew this was going on. And because Jeffrey Epstein was rich, because he was powerful, because he was part of the club, they kept quiet.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

So you now feel that there is a date certain in the House of Representatives when you will get a vote on the Epstein files.

[Ro Khanna]

Nothing is certain until it's done. But. But just today the speaker, because of enormous pressure, perhaps some from your viewers, said, okay, we're going to swear in Adelita Grijalva on October 7 when the regular business happens after that. The way a discharge petition works is you need seven legislative days and then you have a vote. So it depends, of course, if we're back and if we're voting. But after seven days, we will have a vote. And I believe if we get a vote, Lawrence, you're not just going to see a slim majority with the four Republicans, I think you're going to have 50, 60 Republicans vote to release this file. It will be the first overwhelming vote of a Republican House against this president and for justice for survivors.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And that's exactly what Donald Trump and Mike Johnson are afraid of, is a very big Republican vote there to release the files. We have to end it there. Congressman o', Connor, thank you very much for joining us.

[Ro Khanna]

Thank you.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

We'll be right back. California Congressman Ro Khanna gets tonight's last word. Hey, everybody, it's Rob Lowe here. If you haven't heard. I have a podcast that's called Literally with Rob Lowe. And basically it's conversations I've had that really make you feel like you're pulling up a chair at an intimate dinner between myself and people that I admire, like Aaron Sorkin or Tiffany Haddish, Demi Moore, Chris Pratt, Michael J. Fox. There are new episodes out every Thursday, so subscribe, please, and listen wherever you get your podcasts.