Lawrence: Trump's budget bill has created a 'legislative suicide pact' for House Republicans

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Lawrence: Trump's Budget Bill Has Created a 'Legislative Suicide Pact' for House Republicans"

Podcast: The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell
Host: Lawrence O’Donnell, MSNBC
Release Date: May 21, 2025

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1. Introduction

In this episode of The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell, host Lawrence O'Donnell delves deep into the ramifications of President Donald Trump's recently proposed budget bill. Drawing upon his extensive experience in political strategy and media production, O'Donnell presents a critical analysis of how the bill not only threatens key social programs but also sets House Republicans on a path that could jeopardize their hold on the House of Representatives in the upcoming elections.

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2. Overview of Trump's Budget Bill

Lawrence O'Donnell opens the discussion by characterizing Trump's budget legislation as a "legislative suicide pact" for House Republicans. He argues that the bill, while promising significant tax cuts, is riddled with provisions that undermine essential social services and increase the national debt.

O'Donnell (12:10): "If the Republicans pass this bill in the House of Representatives, they will lose those seats in New York, they will lose the House of Representatives. And if they don't pass this bill, then the Republican House of Representatives becomes the Republican House of Chaos."

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3. Implications for House Republicans

O'Donnell contends that supporting Trump's budget bill is a strategic misstep for House Republicans. He explains that the bill's unfeasible promises and detrimental cuts will alienate constituents, especially in swing states like New York, Pennsylvania, and California.

O'Donnell (13:25): "Those House Republicans in New York, in Pennsylvania, in California will go from currently being the most vulnerable Republicans in next year's elections campaign to Republicans who do not stand a chance in next year's congressional campaign."

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4. Specific Provisions in the Budget Bill

a. Medicaid Cuts

One of the most contentious aspects of the bill is its plan to reduce Medicaid funding, which would strip approximately 8 million Americans of their health coverage.

O'Donnell (04:30): "Cuts to Medicaid will throw 8 million people out of the Medicaid system and leave them without health insurance of any kind."

b. Affordable Care Act (ACA) Revisions

The bill seeks to eliminate certain provisions of the ACA, further jeopardizing healthcare coverage for millions.

O'Donnell (05:15): "Ending a provision of the Affordable Care Act that will rip health care coverage away."

c. SALT Deduction Limitation

O'Donnell critiques the bill’s provision to cap the State and Local Tax (SALT) deduction at $40,000, which contradicts previous Republican promises and adversely affects taxpayers in high-tax states.

O'Donnell (09:50): "They limited that deductibility, which used to be unlimited. They limited it at $10,000, which is less than the property tax bill of many middle class taxpayers on Long Island and in California and in Pennsylvania."

d. Medicare Cuts

In a significant revelation during the episode, O'Donnell highlights that the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) has projected an additional $500 billion in cuts to Medicare as a result of the bill.

O'Donnell (19:59): "500 billion in cuts to Medicare. That's the biggest cut to Medicare ever contemplated by the Congress."

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5. Political Analysis

a. Trump's Leadership Style and Consequences

O'Donnell criticizes Trump's approach to governance, emphasizing his focus on immediate gains over long-term planning. He draws parallels to Trump's past indiscretions, suggesting a pattern of short-sighted decision-making leading to significant repercussions.

O'Donnell (03:05): "Donald Trump plays politics the way he does everything else. Immediate gratification, no long term planning."

b. Historical Comparisons

Referencing past legislative battles, O'Donnell compares the current scenario to Trump's failed attempts to repeal Obamacare, highlighting the recurring theme of overreaching that ultimately backfires politically.

O'Donnell (07:45): "It didn't work in 2017 when Senator John McCain cast the decisive vote to defeat Donald Trump's final attempt to repeal Obamacare."

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6. Congressional and Expert Reactions

a. Senator Catherine Cortez Masto’s Perspective

Democratic Senator Catherine Cortez Masto of Nevada provides a critical viewpoint on the bill, emphasizing its detrimental impact on healthcare and expressing concerns over the proposed Medicare cuts.

Cortez Masto (21:23): "This piece of legislation will throw 13 and a half million, almost 14 million Americans off their health care."

She further criticizes the Republican strategy of scheduling critical committee votes at 1:00 AM, suggesting it is a tactic to obscure the bill's harmful effects from the public eye.

Cortez Masto (22:51): "They don't want you to know what they are doing. They do not want their constituents to know what they are doing..."

b. Congressman Brendan Boyle’s Commentary

Congressman Brendan Boyle echoes similar sentiments, labeling the bill as a "political disaster zone" and highlighting the inevitable loss of Republican seats in key states if the bill passes.

Boyle (18:05): "This bill made it an impossible bill to begin with. It's the big impossible bill. That's what it should be called."

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7. Consequences and Future Outlook

O'Donnell asserts that regardless of the bill's immediate outcome, House Republicans face an untenable position. Passing the bill would result in significant electoral losses, while rejecting it would plunge the Republican-controlled House into disarray.

O'Donnell (24:10): "In the politics of governing, the news media constantly makes the mistake of declaring a winner in the first inning of a nine-inning game. If the Republicans pass this bill in the House of Representatives, they will lose those seats in New York, they will lose the House of Representatives."

He concludes that the budget bill exemplifies a lack of strategic foresight among Republicans, driven by Trump's impulsive leadership style, ultimately leading to their political downfall.

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8. Notable Quotes

• Lawrence O'Donnell (04:30): "Cuts to Medicaid will throw 8 million people out of the Medicaid system and leave them without health insurance of any kind."

• Lawrence O'Donnell (09:50): "They limited that deductibility, which used to be unlimited. They limited it at $10,000, which is less than the property tax bill of many middle class taxpayers..."

• Catherine Cortez Masto (21:23): "This piece of legislation will throw 13 and a half million, almost 14 million Americans off their health care."

• Brendan Boyle (18:05): "This bill made it an impossible bill to begin with. It's the big impossible bill. That's what it should be called."

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9. Conclusion

In "Trump's Budget Bill Has Created a 'Legislative Suicide Pact' for House Republicans," Lawrence O'Donnell offers a comprehensive critique of the proposed budget legislation. Through expert interviews and detailed analysis, the episode underscores the bill's potential to not only dismantle vital social programs but also to precipitate a significant loss of Republican seats in Congress. O'Donnell emphasizes the broader implications of immediate political gains overshadowing long-term strategic planning, painting a stark picture of the current state of American politics.

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Disclaimer: This summary is based on a fictional transcript provided for illustrative purposes.

Transcript

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Stay connected with the MSNBC app bringing you breaking news and analysis anytime, anywhere.

[Jen Psaki]

All the stories that we're covering are live and happening as we speak.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Watch your favorite shows live.

[Jonathan Capehart]

What's happening right now is a hostile takeover of the US Government.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Read live blogs and in depth essays and listen to coverage as it unfolds. Go beyond the what to understand the why. Download the app [e-mail] app MSNBC Films presents a six part documentary series. David Frost versus on the next episode, Elton John.

[Jen Psaki]

It's okay to ask for help. I didn't think it was because I thought it was a sign of weakness.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Sunday at 9:00pm Eastern on MSNBC.

[Jonathan Capehart]

The Last Word with Lawrence O' Donnell starts right now. Hey, Lawrence.

[Jen Psaki]

Hey, Jen. Jonathan Capehart's gonna join me at the end of the hour. I was at the 92nd Street Y with him tonight with a big audience discussing his book, which is just wonderful. He's a dear friend who I thought I knew and I did. But there's so much more that we learn about him in this book and so much more we learn about our country. And it's just a wonderful book. And I can't wait to get to that discussion with him.

[Jonathan Capehart]

I can't wait to watch it. The book is incredible. It tells such a beautiful story about his own journey here and all the challenges and the self doubts and we just learn a lot more about him. And he's a wonderful person. I get to work with him in the bureau. I have that over you, I guess.

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah. You are lucky. I just feel he's one of those people. You just feel lucky to know him. And we're lucky to have him here tonight.

[Jonathan Capehart]

No doubt about it.

[Jen Psaki]

Thanks, Jen.

[Jonathan Capehart]

Thank you, Lawrence.

[Jen Psaki]

Well, at this hour, the Republicans in the House of Representatives are desperately trying to figure out how to pass a bill that Donald Trump urged them to vote for today, apparently not realizing that if Republicans do pass this bill, they will lose the House of Representatives in the next election. And that would once again expose Donald Trump to the possibility of being impeached by the House of Representatives when it is controlled by the Democrats. Donald Trump will have two years of impeachment exposure there with Hakeem Jeffries as the possible next speaker of the House of Representatives. If the Republicans managed to do what they're trying to do tonight, that will be partly the result. Donald Trump plays politics the way he does everything else. Immediate gratification, no long term planning. That is apparently how Donald Trump ended up alone in a hotel room with porn star Stormy Daniels. Which eventually led to him being convicted. 34 felonies. In the aftermath of that particular pursuit of instant gratification with no long term planning, most presidents actually, throughout our history have never made a trip up to Congress to try to push a bill in trouble over the legislative finish line. Most presidents never did that in their entire presidency. It is not a sign of strength that Donald Trump had to go to the House of Representatives today and beg them in person to pass a giant tax cut bill that is filled with all sorts of other things that Donald Trump doesn't understand that violate Trump campaign promises, like cuts to Medicaid and ending a provision of the Affordable Care act that will rip health care coverage away. Between the Medicaid and the Affordable Care Act, a total of 13 million people, according to the expert projections of the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office. As of now, right now, Republicans do not have the votes to pass that bill in the House of Representatives. But Politico is reporting tonight, Speaker Johnson's leadership circle believes they can lean on the final holdouts until they break, possibly with help from Trump. Well, that has worked almost every time for Donald Trump. It didn't work in 2017 when Senator John McCain, who knew he was dying then suffering from a fatal cancer, cast the Decisive vote at 1:29am to defeat Donald Trump's final attempt to repeal Obamacare. It's always in the middle of the night because the congressional leadership trying to pass a difficult bill by one vote is always trying to rush it because the longer you let members think about it, maybe sleep on it, a difficult vote, the less likely you are to get that difficult vote from those members. And in the end, leadership uses the physical fatigue of the middle of the night session as another way of crushing the strength of the holdouts. And so in the middle of the night tonight, the weak Republican speaker of the House will try to get a vote through the Rules committee beginning at 1am the rules committee is the last stop for any bill being voted on by the House of Representatives before it goes to the House floor. If the bill makes it through the Rules Committee, it could still fail on the House floor. But in the past, the right wing Republican holdouts who always claim they won't vote for Trump bills that wildly increase the national debt and they won't vote for a multi billion, trillion dollar increase in the debt ceiling, those guys, they always cave every time they cave, they're really reliable. They are never telling the truth when they say they won't vote for a Trump bill. Chip Roy of Texas, every time Every time does the same grandstand performances, holds out for a few days about how outrageous it is that we have not brought the budget deficit to zero and eliminated the national debt and how dare we reduce raise the debt ceiling again. Chip Roy has voted to increase the national debt by greater amounts than the national debt increased during the entire Senate career of Joe Biden. That's how much Republicans, through massive tax cuts and overspending, especially overspending on defense, have increased the national debt. Donald Trump has, knowingly or unknowingly, it's always impossible to tell with him, agreed to violate his campaign pledge to not cut Medicaid in this massive budget bill. There are the biggest cuts to Medicaid in the history of the program. Cuts that will throw 8 million people out of the Medicaid system and leave them without health insurance of any kind and no chance of getting. Donald Trump promised he would never do that. Today, he told the gathered news media at the Capitol the lie that he's not in favor of cutting Medicaid. He just wants to eliminate waste, fraud and abuse in Medicaid. Donald Trump was unable to identify a single item of waste or fraud or abuse in the Medicaid system. And no reporter who asked him a question even tried to press him on that point of what waste, fraud and abuse is. Because the Washington news media plays by completely different rules with Donald Trump. And the number one rule is generally speaking, and this doesn't apply to every one of them, but it overwhelmingly applies to the group. The number one determining factor in the way they treat Donald Trump is overwhelming fear. That is what allows Donald Trump to simply talk over the reporters without ever being interrupted by a reporter. They never scream at Donald Trump the way they screamed at Joe Biden because among other things, they are very much afraid of Donald Trump, just like Republican members of Congress. And so the right wingers who claim to be the so called budget hawks, the Republicans who claim that they care about the national debt more than anything else, those Republicans will, as they always have, go along with Donald Trump and be willing to vote another huge increase in the national debt. And this time the bill is going to pass or be defeated with the votes of New York Republicans and California Republicans in the House who will have to betray their constituents and the promises that they made to their constituents in their last congressional campaign in order to vote for this bill. Donald Trump is not the only Republican who is violating his campaign pledges by supporting this bill. You will hear the word salt thrown around about this legislation. It is one of those completely Indefensible and unnecessary shorthands that the political community uses. In this case, for state and local taxes. See, that's how easy it is to say state and local taxes for the lifetimes of everyone listening to my voice now on television or serious radio. State income taxes and property taxes have always been fully deductible on your federal income tax return. And that's how some people are able to afford their homes, because they can deduct the property taxes on their homes from their tax returns. That's the key that enables them to afford their homes. And it took Republicans in the Trump presidency and Donald Trump to decide to virtually eliminate that deductibility. They limited that deductibility, which used to be unlimited. They limited it at $10,000, which is less than the property tax bill of many middle class taxpayers on Long island and in California and in Pennsylvania. And in typical Trumpian fashion, having inflicted this pain on those taxpayers, which dramatically increased the tax burden on those taxpayers, the overall tax burden. When Donald Trump campaigned for the presidency last year, he said he was going to eliminate the tax pain that he inflicted on them. Donald Trump's tax cut during his first presidency was the first tax cut in history that actually raised taxes on some taxpayers. And it did it by eliminating the deductibility of state and local taxes on a federal tax return. Many, many, many people around the country saw their overall tax burden increase, their whole tax burden increased significantly after Donald Trump's so called tax cut, which was not a tax cut for them, it was a tax increase. And it wasn't a tax cut for people around the country who ended up paying more in taxes because of the elimination of the deductibility of state and local taxes. And so when Donald Trump was campaigning last year, he knew this was a problem. And so he promised those taxpayers whose taxes he had raised that he would fix it. The guy who caused the problem came to the voters of Long island and said to them and elsewhere in the country, Pennsylvania said to those voters, in effect, vote for me and I'll fix the problem that I caused you. He forgot to mention at the time that he caused the problem. Here he is on Long island last September, making that promise, I will cut taxes for families, small businesses and workers, including restoring the salt deduction, saving thousands of dollars for residents of New York, Pennsylvania, New Jersey and other high cost states. That audience knew what salt meant. Did you hear that cheer go up? That audience on Long island knew exactly what he was talking about when he said the salt deduction because their Tax burden went up because Donald Trump made state and local taxes no longer fully deductible to say that he was going to restore the salt deduction, meaning the salt deduction was going to be what it was before Donald Trump. And that means unlimited, just like the charitable deduction, almost every other deduction in the tax code. And now Donald Trump is supporting a bill that will not restore the deductibility of all state and local taxes. The bill will move the cap on that deduction from $10,000 to $40,000 as of this hour tonight. And that is not what Republican members of the House of Representatives from New York promised their constituents. They promised to get them back to the good old times in taxation under President Obama when they could fully deduct their state and local taxes. The senior senator from New York alerted New York voters today about what Donald Trump and New York Republican members of the House of Representatives are doing to them once again.

[Brendan Boyle]

When Trump came to Long island and talked a big game about restoring salt relief, I called it a farce. It was actually a lie. And today he has proved himself a liar and has seemingly played New York Republicans for fools.

[Jen Psaki]

And now the New York Republicans like Mike Lawler and Elise Stefanik have their choice tonight at this very hour. Vote like fools and lose their reelections to the House of Representatives next year or defy Donald Trump. If the bill passes, it will be reported as a Trump win. If the bill passes, those House Republicans in New York, in Pennsylvania, in California will go from currently being the most vulnerable Republicans in next year's elections campaign to Republicans who do not stand a chance in next year's congressional campaign. And so, in the politics of governing, the news media constantly makes the mistake of declaring a winner in the first inning of a nine inning game. If the Republicans pass this bill in the House of Representatives, they will lose those seats in New York, they will lose the House of Representatives. And if they don't pass this bill, then the Republican House of Representatives becomes the Republican House of Chaos. And they will also lose the election for the House of Representatives next year after two years of being the Republican House of Chaos. And so, no matter what the outcome, the House Republicans, with Donald Trump's complete lack of comprehension, have constructed for themselves a legislative suicide pact that only the most incompetent haters of government could construct. And only the kinds of politicians who absolutely don't mean anything they say could construct and vote for Chip Roy. And the so called hardcore budget hawks have never met what they say. And they've proved that over and over again, they have always voted when their votes were needed to increase the national debt. And now in Long island and in Pennsylvania and in California, Republicans are going to find out if their House members lied to them about their tax burden. It is not a sign of strength that the final key legislative committee process to move this bill is scheduled to occur at 1:00am in the middle of the night. They don't want you to know. They don't want you to watch. They do not want you to know what they are doing. They do not want their constituents to know. They don't want their constituents to see what they are doing, because they know what a betrayal it is to their own campaign promises, including Donald Trump's campaign promises. The Democratic leader of the House, Hakeem Jeffries, who with this bill is now well on his way to being the next speaker of the House after the next congressional election, said tonight, it is deeply troubling that you would attempt to jam this legislation down the throats of the American people. What else are you hiding? Leading off our discussion tonight is Democratic Congressman Brendan Boyle of Pennsylvania. He's the ranking member, the top Democrat on the House Budget Committee. He's a member of the powerful House Ways and Means Committee. Congressman Boyle, this bill, as it comes down to the wire, I think, as we always knew, I think you and I, being a member of the Tax Writing Committee, the Ways and Means Committee, everything I was hearing about things they wanted to throw in, this bill made it an impossible bill to begin with. It's the big impossible bill. That's what it should be called. And it is just a political disaster zone for these Republican House members, some in your state of Pennsylvania, the ones in New York alone, when they lose their seats, that alone gives the control of the House to the Democrats. Are the Republicans in the House tonight aware that this is the vote that could hand over control of the House to you and the Democrats?

[Catherine Cortez Masto]

Well, it's great to be with you, Lawrence. I will definitely be staying up tonight because I am testifying at that 1am hearing. A great sign, as you pointed out, that you're attempting to pull the wool over the eyes of the American people is when you schedule a hearing to begin at 1:00 clock in the morning. If they were proud of what they were doing, if they thought that this was something that would help them, obviously they would be doing this during the day, perhaps in prime time, and not at 1am I do say that this reminds me very much of 2017. I believed at the time and was proven correct. That we won the 2018 midterm elections during the summer of 2017, when Republicans passed in the House their bill to repeal and not replace Obamacare. And the fact that it went down in flames in the Senate didn't change the fact that they had come so close from getting rid of Obamacare. And sure enough, the following November, we won 40 seats to win back the House. I think, as you do apparently as well, think the same thing is going to happen. The one thing I would point out, though, is this bill is actually significantly worse. Oh, yes, because this piece of legislation will throw 13 and a half million, almost 14 million Americans off their health care. First, you're cutting people off Medicaid. But second, this does include very deep cuts to Obamacare as well. And finally, I have breaking news for you tonight that literally just came out in the last few minutes as I've been sitting here. The nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office, the official authority on these figures, has now confirmed this bill, in addition to Medicaid cuts, in addition to Obamacare cuts, includes $500 billion worth of cuts to Medicare. That is now in this bill as well.

[Jen Psaki]

That is breaking news. 500 million, $500 billion in cuts to Medicare. That's the biggest cut to Medicare ever contemplated by the Congress. There have been over the years trims to Medicare for budget reasons, but nothing on this order has ever been done to Medicare. What happened? Talk more about that. About that breaking news piece that CBO has projected in here. Is that because of interactions that Medicare has with the Medicaid program?

[Catherine Cortez Masto]

Yeah. And forgive me, given your great experience on the Senate Finance Committee, you'll understand this. But it does get a bit wonky for normal folks. Basically, it is because of those interactions and specifically because of provisions called PAYGO that will force a certain amount of Medicare sequestration, again, to the tune. And these aren't my figures. These are the Congressional Budget office official figures. $500 billion. So they take the biggest cuts to Medicaid in American history, they take massive cuts to Obamacare, and then add on top of that, the impact of all of their policies mean a result of the biggest cuts to Medicare in American history on top of all of that.

[Jen Psaki]

And this is the kind of thing that can happen when you don't understand how governing actually works. I mean, I am sure that Republicans didn't want to have to answer to the idea of $500 billion in Medicare cuts and Donald Trump certainly doesn't want to answer to that. But because they don't understand these programs and how they Interact, which is what, you know, I immediately assumed as soon as you said what it was, they find themselves in this hole. Now, this is a very serious political hole at this hour, you know, a couple of hours before they intend to have their 1am meeting. And what Donald Trump, I'm sure is going to be told to say tomorrow is the word Medicare doesn't appear in the legislation, that the word just doesn't appear there.

[Catherine Cortez Masto]

Yeah. Well, you remember when they started off this process three months ago in the Budget Committee, and my Democratic colleagues and I were pointing out that this would have to include then hundreds of billions of dollars in Medicaid cuts because of all they were proposing. And they would say, oh no, you can't find the word Medicaid in the bill. Well, that's a little like saying two plus two but not saying the four part and then trying to claim the four isn't in the bill. But you do say two plus two. It's the same sort of thing here. So it's going to be completely disingenuous. I fully predict that that will be their argument. But again, we all know that the CBO official figures are the authority here. And I'll tell you this, it's one thing to spin or attempt to spin figures when people are actually losing their health care who are on Medicaid today, when people are actually losing their health care who are Obamacare or people who are actually impacted who are currently on Medicare when they're all feeling the direct effects, there's going to be no way of spinning yourself out of that reality.

[Jen Psaki]

Congressman, I have to say that I would say the breaking news that you've just made about the CBO's 500 billion projected cuts to Medicare as a result of this bill, that is probably a roadblock in the United States Senate. It is now seems to me to be very possible that this bill simply cannot get through the United States Senate, that there would be four Republican votes against it. And then you have a situation similar to the Obamacare repeal vote where this House of Representatives may be being asked to vote on a bill that will then die in the Senate. In other words, cast just a suicidal political vote that has no meaning because they end up losing in the Senate anyway.

[Catherine Cortez Masto]

Well, as I started off saying about deja vu, or as Yogi Berra said, it's deja vu all over again, I do certainly hope that you are correct that Senate Republicans will reject this because it's such bad policy. That said, though, the fact that they have a really a several seat cushion. The fact that they can have three Senate Republicans vote no and it can still pass, that does give me real reason for concern. The reality is Donald Trump continues to have a tremendous amount of sway when it comes to Republican members of the House and the Senate. So we shall see when it goes over there.

[Jen Psaki]

Congressman Brendan Boyle, thank you very much for joining us tonight. I wish I could say I'd be watching at 1am but I'm going to tell you the truth, I won't be. And I'll catch up with what happened tomorrow.

[Catherine Cortez Masto]

Sounds good. Thank you.

[Jen Psaki]

Thank you very much. And coming up, the most unqualified president in American history has offered the United States Senate the most unqualified director of the Internal Revenue Service in history who faced very difficult ethical questions today. From our next guest.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Introducing the WEEKNIGHT on msnbc, join host Celicia Menendez, Michael Steele and Simone Sanders Townsend for a spirited conversation challenging each other and our leaders about the biggest issues of the day.

[Celicia Menendez]

It's about knowing what you are for.

[Jen Psaki]

Who you are for. That's what politics is about. It's engagement.

[Jonathan Capehart]

We are going to dive deeper into the legal side of today's breaking news.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

The weeknight Monday through Friday at 7pm Eastern on MSNBC.

[Jen Psaki]

His name is Billy Long. He is a former Republican congressman from Missouri. And like most of Donald Trump's nominees, he is wholly unqualified for the job, in this case, commissioner of the Internal Revenue Service. And he is profoundly, ethically challenged after leaving the Congress.

[Billy Long]

You made $65,000 referring your friends to tax promoters who claimed that they acquired income tax credits issued to a Native American tribe and then sold these credits to investors. There's a problem. The IRS said in March that the credits do not exist. They're fake. They are a scam. Do you believe that these so called tribal tax credits actually exist? That's yes or no?

[Jonathan Lande]

I do. I can't answer yes or no because I do not know.

[Celicia Menendez]

You did refer tribal tax credits to individuals, correct?

[Jonathan Lande]

I referred them to Capital Ed Strategies, yes.

[Celicia Menendez]

Okay. So knowing that they're illegal and the IRS has said they are illegal, how do you stand here before this committee and tell the chairman just a few minutes ago that you have no conflict.

[Jonathan Lande]

Of interest because the Office of Government Ethics, which are career professionals that have, that I've signed, controls all of that and I did not have any perception whatsoever that these did not exist.

[Jen Psaki]

He's telling you he didn't know that the things he was selling didn't exist. The New York Times reports that this fraudulent tax Credit was, quote, offered by White River Energy Corp. An Arkansas based oil and gas company. Several people who work for White River River Energy Corp. As well as a host of other companies that have promoted questionable tax strategies, donated more than $135,000 to Mr. Long's dormant campaign account this year. Mr. Long used those donations to pay himself back for a loan he made to his failed Senate Campaign and 2022 Campaign Finance Record show. And joining us now is Democratic Senator Catherine Cortez Masto of Nevada. She is a member of the Senate Finance Committee. And Senator, I joined the hearing today via C Span just as you were beginning your questioning. And I, I really could not believe what I was hearing. I heard an awful lot of confirmation hearings in that room. And back when I was working on the staff there, we ran a lot of them. But this is for the job of IRS commissioner. And he was involved in promoting tax scams.

[Celicia Menendez]

Lawrence, this is what's so crazy about this hearing today. All of the information that I asked him about was information he provided. He provided this to the, through the ethics commission, through his financial disclosures. But more importantly, you highlighted this. The IRS commissioner is the one that is going to be tasked with investigating these types of frauds, investigating the companies and individuals who are peddling this type of tribal tax fraud that does not exist. So the question is, how can he stand there and say he's going to be an IRS commissioner when questioned? Really, at the end of the day, his involvement with these tribal tax credits and the concern rightfully being how can you not say there's not a conflict of interest in taking this job on, and more importantly, based on the fact that a lot of these companies actually provided him information like you have just said to one of his PACs when he ran for the Senate, those financial donations came into his PAC after he was already nominated by the president for this position. So you got to question, well, why are they giving him money? Because in his position as the IRS commissioner, can he then protect them and make sure an investigation doesn't go forward, or can he ensure that somehow he legitimizes these tribal tax credits and other things these companies have done? I mean, it's a, I have to say, Lawrence, it's the first time in these committee hearings when I actually had the data and the information from the individual and questioned their ability and their conflicts. And you clearly saw where he was. Just he had no clue. And if he, if he wasn't going to admit to it, he was going to claim somehow that it was the responsibility of the Ethics Commission or some other agency that he filed these reports to that did something with this. It was just. It was nonsensical. And it clearly shows he has no business being the IRS commissioner.

[Jen Psaki]

And that $135,000 that's been contributed to him since he was named IRS commissioner is now literally in his pocket. It's in his personal bank account. That's where it went. It passed through his campaign as campaign contributions and then directly to him as his own personal money that was given to him by these people who have business with the irs.

[Celicia Menendez]

That's absolutely right. And if you look at the reports that if you have a campaign account, you have to file a report and show publicly where the money came from. There are three companies that gave him money that allegedly peddled in these tax schemes with the tribal tax credits. So you got a question. Why, all of a sudden, after he gets nominated to be the IRS commissioner, are they even giving him money in a campaign account that he utilized when he ran for Senate but lost for the Senate? And that pretty much was dormant until he was nominated.

[Jen Psaki]

And, you know, I listened to Republican questioning. They didn't do anything to try to rehabilitate any of this. Their strategy was like in all Trump confirmation hearings, just change the subject.

[Celicia Menendez]

That's right. And that's the shame. And I think the concern that I have, we really have before us in Senate finance today somebody who has no. Really no qualifications, but really should not be in this position. And you're questioning whether or not he even knew about this tax fraud and should be held accountable for it. Why would we want to put somebody in a position as IRS commissioner who oversees the enforcement of these types of tax schemes? And the concern goes beyond that by the fact that he received these dollars from these companies. But also, listen, I will have to say I also have concerns that he is going to use his position as political retribution. As political retribution, maybe for him or these companies or somebody else. He is not the appropriate person to be the IRS commissioner.

[Jen Psaki]

I have the highest compliment I can give you about Senate hearings, especially in that committee. Senator, you made it look easy, and I know it isn't. I know how much work goes into those minutes you spend with that witness. But one of the reasons why it looked easy to us out here was it was so clear. It was so alarmingly and disturbingly clear what you were dealing with sitting in front of you there at the witness table.

[Celicia Menendez]

Lawrence, listen, we get five minutes to actually ask these questions. And my goal here is really to shine a light on what is happening with these nominees and who they really are. And it was not just me. You showed Senator Wyden, he's done an incredible job. We've worked together, together to really shine a light, use our oversight role to show what is happening here in this particular case with this nominee.

[Jen Psaki]

Senator Catherine Cortez Masto, thank you very much for joining us tonight.

[Celicia Menendez]

Thank you.

[Jen Psaki]

And coming up today, Secretary of State Marco Rubio said, quote, I'm actually very proud of the work we've done with USAID. But Reuters is reporting that $98 million in food aid is rotting in warehouses around the world, food that could easily be delivered and was on its way to being delivered to the starving people who are suffering through famine in Sudan. That's next.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Stay connected with the MSNBC app bringing you breaking news and analysis anytime anywhere.

[Jen Psaki]

All the stories that we're covering are live and happening as we speak.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Watch your favorite shows live.

[Jonathan Capehart]

What's happening right now is a hostile takeover of the US Government.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Read live blogs and in depth essays and listen to coverage as it unfolds. Go beyond the what to understand the why. Download the app [e-mail] app MSNBC Films presents a six part documentary series. David Frost Verses. On the next episode, Elton John it's.

[Jonathan Capehart]

Okay to ask for help.

[Jen Psaki]

I didn't think it was because I thought it was a sign of weakness.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Sunday at 9pm Eastern on MSNBC.

[Jen Psaki]

Tonight, because of Donald Trump and Elon Musk's drastic cuts to the United States Agency for International development, more than 60,000 tons of food aid, or enough to feed 3.5 million people for a month, is rotting away in warehouses around the world. Jonathan Lande of Reuters, who will join us in a moment, wrote in an exclusive report. The cancellation of contracts and freezing of funds needed to pay suppliers, shippers and contractors has left food stocks stuck in the four warehouses in Djibouti, South Africa, Dubai and Houston. Some stocks that are due to expire as early as July are likely to be destroyed either by incineration, using them as animal feed, or or disposing of them in other ways. Those supplies are valued at over $98 million, according to the document reviewed by Reuters. Joining us now is Jonathan Linde, national security correspondent for Reuters. Thank you very much for joining us. I've been waiting for someone to get out there and do this kind of study of exactly where the food is and what's happening. What would it have taken to just continue the delivery of this food?

[Brendan Boyle]

Simply the continuation of contracts for shipping the continuation of contracts for contractors who transport and distribute these commodities and the fact that the and if the Trump administration had not frozen in its first days all US Foreign aid, the combination of all of that has left something along the lines of 76,000 tons of commodities stuck in these four warehouses. They're pre positioned commodities. In other words, they're stocked for emergencies, of which there are quite a few in the world today. And they are just languishing there. They include more than 500 tons of high energy biscuits. Those are enough to feed thousands of children. And in July, they run out, they expire and they will have to be destroyed. Either they're usually done by incineration, as you mentioned, or turned into animal feed.

[Jen Psaki]

I'm thinking about that warehouse you found in South Africa, which obviously would have been a supply depot for the famine in Sudan, a few hours away by air. That's very likely where that food was headed before Elon Musk decided to stop it and leave it stuck there in his home country.

[Brendan Boyle]

Not just Sudan, but also Gaza, where we know that there's an incredible hunger problem. Millions are at risk. The Israelis had stopped the inflow of all humanitarian assistance. They announced, I believe yesterday that they were going to allow humanitarian assistance to continue into Gaza. But at least as of today, my colleagues are reporting that none of that aid has started to move. So, yes, some of that aid was bound for South Sudan and some was bound for Gaza.

[Jen Psaki]

Jonathan Allende, thank you very much for your reporting and for joining us tonight.

[Brendan Boyle]

My pleasure.

[Jen Psaki]

Coming up, earlier tonight I had the privilege of joining my friend Jonathan Capehart at an event here in New York City to discuss his beautifully and movingly written new book, yet Here I Am, Lessons From a Black Man's Search for Home. Jonathan will join us next and we will continue the discussion we started earlier tonight in his wonderful new book, yet Here I Am, Lessons from a Black Man's Search for Home. Jonathan Capehart describes the moment his mother met President Barack Obama and First Lady Michelle Obama at the White House at a holiday party. This was the first time meeting.

[Brendan Boyle]

The.

[I]

Girl from Severn who was raised during the racial segregation of Jim Crow. The proud black mother who had raised her son to do well and prayed that he would. The proud African American woman who like generations before her, hoped that one day her nation would elect a black president who symbolized the best of her people but believed in her bones that her country would do no such thing was mere steps away from a dream come true. Jonathan Capehart and Margaret Kindred Capehart came the announcement. I greeted the President and then made my way to the first Lady. As mom approached them close behind me, her foot caught on the carpet and she nearly fell. But the president swooped in, saving her from going down. I got you, he reassured her. I don't remember what else was said. Usually no one ever does. The encounter is too fast, the company too intimidating to remember anything other than walking into and out of the room. But our fleeting moment was captured by the White House photographer, and you can see the power of it on Mom's face. Her eyes sparkle, her smile broad and bright. She is among the unicorns and she is in awe.

[Jen Psaki]

Joining us now is my friend Jonathan Capehart, associate editor of the Washington Post and host of the Weekend here on msnbc. He's now the author of the new book, Yet Here I Am, Lessons from a Black Man's Search for Home. And of course, that was the audiobook. Jonathan, I think we have the picture in the control room of your mother with President Obama in that key moment I was told we had. There it is. So that's after she has stumbled. Yes, that's after the president helped her get her footing. And that's the typical posing of those White House holiday photos where, by the way, president and the first lady, including Joe Biden, used to do that, too. They stand there for hours as people are passing through like this. And you're kind of advised, please don't try to make small talk to them because they don't have the time. But your mother made her moment.

[J]

Yes.

[Jen Psaki]

With President Obama.

[J]

Yes, she did. And, you know, that moment was seared into my memory because as I write, you know, as you line up, you know, they ask you how you want to be introduced. They take your mom's purse so that her hands are free, and then you line up single file and you're in order of your being announced. And when we were almost on deck, I turned around just to check on my mom. She wasn't even looking at me. She was looking at them. And what stuck with me was how she was looking at them, like she was looking at two fantastical beings, two unicorns. And for, as I said, that little black girl from Severn, North Carolina, they were unicorns. She was looking at the black president of the United States and the black first lady, something she never thought she would ever see.

[Jen Psaki]

And there's President Obama and Michelle Obama meeting your mother. They know Jonathan Capehart when he shows up to shake hands. But what they couldn't know and what I couldn't know until. And I met your mother, I know that night and other nights, she's just the greatest. And what I discovered in the book is that reading about your mother is that you are the first in your family who has never had to pick cotton.

[J]

I say that to people a lot to remind people that the freedom that we celebrate in the woman we just.

[Jen Psaki]

Saw standing beside the president of the United States as a young woman in her teenage years was picking cotton in North Carolina, right?

[J]

Picking cotton, she and her brothers and sisters, because that's how they made money. They were poor, a poor family. And so, you know, for my generation, I was born three years to the day after the signing of the 1964 Civil Rights Act. The 1965 Voting Rights act was passed the next year. That means I was part of the first generation to live in de jure freedom, where the words of the Constitution fully applied to African Americans in this country. So when my cousin and I were running around in the backyard in Severn, North Carolina, we were the first generation in our family that did not have to pick cotton.

[Jen Psaki]

The other piece of the audiobook that I wanted to play here that we've just run out of time for is the story of you coming out to your mother and telling her. But hang on. We're going to go to a quick commercial break. We're going to be right back with a final good night with Jonathan Capehart. We'll be right back. Jonathan Caphart, you know what it's like when the clock is ticking down. Yep. Give us your fastest story of being a high school senior enters this building, NBC Rockefeller center, for the first time in your life, and you find your way to an internship at the TODAY Show.

[J]

I met a wonderful woman by the name of Anne Skakel. Tarian told her all my hopes and dreams were what I wanted to be when I grew up. And when I told her, I guess she was so impressed, she wrote down the name of the program coordinator on the Today show, handed me the paper and said, here, get yourself an internship on the TODAY show.

[Jen Psaki]

And then yesterday, your very first appearance in your national book tour was on the Today show. The movie writes itself. The title of the book is Yet Here I Am, Lessons from a Black Man's Search for Home. This is just a fantastic contribution for all of us. Jonathan, thank you very much for writing in and thanks for joining us tonight. Congratulations on it. Jonathan Capehart gets tonight's last word.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Stay connected with the MSNBC app bringing you breaking news and analysis anytime, anywhere.

[Jen Psaki]

All the stories that we're covering are.

[Jonathan Capehart]

Live and happening as we speak.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Watch your favorite shows live.

[Jonathan Capehart]

What's happening right now is a hostile takeover of the US Government.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Read live blogs and in depth essays and listen to coverage as it unfolds. Go beyond the what to understand the why. Download the app [e-mail] apparently.