Lawrence: Trump's ‘heartlessness’ was outdone by Sen. Lee’s ‘perverse’ tweets

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell

Episode Title: Lawrence: Trump's ‘Heartlessness’ Was Outdone by Sen. Lee’s ‘Perverse’ Tweets
Host: Lawrence O’Donnell, MSNBC
Release Date: June 18, 2025

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1. Introduction and Overview

The episode begins with Lawrence O’Donnell addressing recent political turmoil, focusing on the contrasting behaviors of former President Donald Trump and Utah Senator Mike Lee. O’Donnell emphasizes the gravity of current events, including political assassinations and the societal impact of such tragedies.

2. Donald Trump’s Actions and Media Reporting

O’Donnell criticizes mainstream media outlets for uncritically reporting Donald Trump’s movements and intentions. He highlights an instance where The New York Times claimed Trump left Canada to address a conflict between Iran and Israel without substantiated evidence.

• Notable Quote (04:00):
  “Donald Trump is a pathological liar who told over 30,000 documented lies in his first presidency.” — Lawrence O'Donnell

O’Donnell asserts that Trump’s departure from Canada coincided suspiciously with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy’s arrival, suggesting ulterior motives behind Trump’s actions. He further accuses Trump of incompetence in handling international crises, notably the war in Ukraine.

3. Senator Mike Lee’s Controversial Tweets

The discussion shifts to Senator Mike Lee’s response to the assassination of Minnesota state legislators. O’Donnell condemns Lee’s tweets, labeling them as “perverse” and inadequate in addressing the severity of the situation.

• Notable Quote (07:15):
  “Mike Lee is suffering from some very bad coverage in local Utah media. The Salt Lake Tribune reports that Mike Lee has averaged more than 100 posts a day on the platform over the last several months. 100 tweets a day is not healthy.” — Lawrence O'Donnell

O’Donnell argues that Lee’s unfounded assertions, such as labeling Marxism as a “deadly mental illness,” demonstrate a lack of understanding and empathy. He criticizes Lee for prioritizing political posturing over genuine support for victims and calls for his censure.

4. Interview with Norm Ornstein

Congressional historian Norm Ornstein joins the discussion to provide historical context on Senator Lee’s behavior. Ornstein compares Lee’s actions to past senators known for their offensive remarks, highlighting the severity and potential consequences of such behavior.

• Notable Quote (25:08):
  “Mike Lee's vile tweets are not simply disgraceful and disgusting. They are more dangerous than we have yet acknowledged.” — Norm Ornstein

Ornstein expresses disappointment in the Senate’s inaction regarding Lee’s conduct, emphasizing that such behavior undermines the integrity of the legislative body and public trust.

5. Republican Budget Bill Analysis

The conversation transitions to the Republican budget bill, with O’Donnell and Ornstein dissecting its implications. They critique the bill’s provisions, particularly the tax cuts and Medicaid reductions, arguing that it disproportionately harms working-class and poor Americans while benefiting the wealthy.

• Notable Quote (32:00):
  “The idea that they're spinning things to benefit Democrats is itself farcical.” — Norm Ornstein

O’Donnell highlights the bill’s negative public perception, noting a 64% unfavorable rating, and warns of the looming debt ceiling crisis that could exacerbate economic instability.

6. Legal Battle Over National Guard Deployment in California

O’Donnell addresses the legal controversy surrounding the Trump administration’s attempt to deploy the National Guard in California without gubernatorial approval. He explains the procedural aspects of the court hearing, emphasizing the unprecedented nature of the federalization order.

• Notable Quote (37:25):
  “There is no situation under which the President invokes this statute, and he's wrong that there's no judicial review that can be had of his invocation of the statute to deploy the National Guard.” — Lisa Rubin

The discussion underscores the constitutional challenges posed by the administration’s actions and the potential for executive overreach in utilizing military force for domestic law enforcement.

7. Closing Remarks and Last Word

In the final segment, O’Donnell references a statement by Tucker Carlson, characterizing it as propaganda aligned with Fox News’ agenda. He transitions to promoting Chris Hayes’ podcast episode, which discusses grassroots movements against autocracy, highlighting the importance of coalition-building in political activism.

• Notable Quote (43:05):
  “You can try, but you're gonna find it's very hard to be more wrong than Republican Senator Tim Scott.” — Lawrence O'Donnell

8. Additional Insights

Throughout the episode, O’Donnell provides critical analysis of Republican strategies and moral standings, juxtaposing them against Democratic responses. The recurring theme centers on accountability, integrity, and the preservation of democratic norms amid escalating political tensions.

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Conclusion:
In this episode, Lawrence O’Donnell delivers a robust critique of both former President Donald Trump and Senator Mike Lee, highlighting instances of misinformation, insensitivity, and potential constitutional violations. Through interviews and in-depth analysis, the podcast underscores the pressing need for ethical leadership and responsible governance in contemporary American politics.

Transcript

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[Lawrence O'Donnell]

The Last Word with Lawrence O' Donnell starts right now. Hi, Lawrence. Hey, Jen. Thank you very much for reading that. That's actually the first I've heard it. I didn't come across it today in my study of the coverage. Pet a dog and everything else on that list is just so important and important for days, even that don't include the these political assassinations and other horrors. The average typical day we're going through now is a pet a dog day. No question about it. Incredibly inspiring and graceful. I mean, what tragedy they've just dealt with and they're still mourning through. Yes, yes. Just remarkable. And that's the kind of strength and dignity that people like Mike Lee simply do not comprehend and have no human connection with whatsoever. Missing a chip or something. Missing a chip or something. Yeah, absolutely. Thanks, Jen. Thanks, Lawrence. Thank you. Well, because most of the American news media cannot deal with the possibility that everyone in the Trump White House is lying to them most of the time or even all of the time, they reported as fact that Donald Trump left Canada in the middle of the night last night and flew all night from Alberta back to Washington, D.C. to deal with the rapidly escalating conflict between Iran and Israel. The New York Times reported that as fact, the reason Donald Trump left Canada in the middle of the night was to deal with the war between Israel and Iran. The New York Times could have said White House officials say that that's the reason Donald Trump left Canada in the middle of the night. And that would be a big difference from just stating it as a fact. And this is not just a semantic, semantic point. Donald Trump is a pathological liar who told over 30,000 documented lies in his first presidency. And everyone working for Donald Trump in the White House is there because Donald Trump knows that they are all willing, ready and eager to lie for him about anything, including why he left Canada in the middle of the night. Because we know Donald Trump has no idea what to do about the new war in the Middle East. We don't know. We really don't know why he left Canada. It might have been for the reason that the New York Times thinks is a fact. And it doesn't really make Any difference what time zone Donald Trump's in or what countries he's in when he's trying to do something he doesn't know how to do, like deal with the situation in the Middle East. Donald Trump has absolutely no mental capacity whatsoever to deal with a situation like this. And Donald Trump is the laziest person ever elected to the presidency. And I'm still willing to grant that it's a possibility that Donald Trump left Canada for the reason the New York Times takes to be fact. But it is an interesting coincidence that Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy arrived in Canada right after Donald Trump left. And Donald Trump knew exactly when President Zelensky was arriving. President Zelensky went to Canada to ask the G7 allies for more help fighting Vladimir Putin, who Donald Trump called a genius. When Vladimir Putin launched his war on Ukraine and Donald Trump, he didn't have to hear a word from President Zelensky because he left Canada in the middle of the night. Donald Trump has all but publicly admitted that he has no idea what to do about Vladimir Putin's war in Ukraine, except to, in effect, encourage Vladimir Putin to just hang on long enough and the United States will just abandon Ukraine. Meetings in the Situation Room in the White House are usually secret. No one had any idea that there was a meeting in the Situation Room in the White House when President Obama and his national security team were tracking the Navy seals who were on their way to capture or kill, and it turned out kill, Osama bin Laden. But today, while there was a meeting reportedly going on in the Situation Room, the Trump White House was telling the world that Donald Trump was having a top secret meeting in the Situation Room about the situation in the Middle East. This is the same president who ignores the President's daily brief that is about situations like this as they develop, including all of the President's daily briefs that lead up to situations like this. And those daily briefs are something that every other president has consumed in full. On his flight back from Canada, Donald Trump tried to compete with Utah's Republican Senator Mike Lee for the meanest reaction to the assassination of a Minnesota state legislator and her husband and the attempted assassination of another Minnesota state legislator and his wife. Donald Trump was asked if he has called the governor of Minnesota, as is customary for every previous president of any either party, in situations like this since the invention of the telephone. You know, I could be nice and call him, but why waste time? That's another Trump lie. He could not be nice, and he has proved himself incapable of being nice. By not making that phone call, along with hundreds of other not nice things he does in a typical week. We have never had a smaller mind in the White House than Donald Trump's. We've never had a more petty mind in the White House than Donald Trump's. And as far as Donald Trump wasting time, no president's time has been less serious than Donald Trump's time. Donald Trump has spent much more time on golf courses than he has spent reading anything related to his job as president. Donald Trump is so incapable of reading that his Director of National Intelligence has tried to come up with video presentations of information on an iPad that mimics Donald Trump's favorite propaganda news network. But this time, Donald Trump's heartlessness has been outdone by Senator Mike Lee. Mike Lee appears to be in an agonizing mental struggle with how to be a human being. Here's a photograph of Mike Lee last night in the Senate that does not give the slightest visual indication that Mike Lee understands a word that Minnesota Senator Tina Smith is saying to him about just how horrible his social media postings have been about the assassination and attempted assassination of those Minnesota state legislators and their spouses. Mike Lee is not well. And Mike Lee does seem obsessed with mental illness to the point where we have to wonder whether he is suffering from mental illness that leaves him projecting mental illness on others. Mike Lee tweeted Marxism is a deadly mental illness. He tweeted that as his explanation for why the man now charged with murder and attempted murder in Minnesota did what he did. Mike Lee decided without evidence a couple of things. One, that the shooter is a Marxist. And here's what's wrong with that idea. According to the defendant's roommate, he's a Trump supporter, voted for Trump. He liked Trump. I like Trump. Nobody's happy with the government. Everybody, everybody is happy at this. Not happy what this politician does or that politician does, but you don't go on a shooting spree. It's just that's why I hate talking about it, because it's so crazy. And when Mike Lee says that Marxism is a deadly mental illness, he's making it very clear that he has no idea what mental illness is. He also doesn't appear to know that Marxism does not exist as a governing doctrine in any country in the world. Marxism is a long dead philosophy that explains nothing about life in the United States or death in the United States at the hands of an accused assassin whose roommate says voted for Donald Trump. After Senator Smith confronted Mike lee More than 24 hours ago, Mike Lee did nothing. Mike Lee did not delete his tweets about those murders and attempted murders. Mike Lee is suffering from some very bad coverage in local Utah media. The Salt Lake Tribune reports that Mike Lee has averaged more than 100 posts a day on the platform over the last several months. 100 tweets a day is not healthy. No United States Senator actually doing the job of senator would have the time for 100 tweets a day or even 10 tweets a day. So there's something seriously wrong with Mike Lee. He can't possibly be coming close to doing the job of United States Senator. The very first tweet that the very sick Mike Lee issued after those deadly news bulletins from Minnesota was, my guess is he's not maga. That was Detective Mike Lee's guess about the shooter. He's not maga. We now know that the suspected shooter voted for Donald Trump. We know the suspected shooter is maga. But why would anyone need to guess immediately after the shooting like this about the politics of the shooter? The shooter was on the run when Mike Lee was guessing that he's not maga. Mike Lee didn't care about the two issues that mattered the most at that time, sympathy for the victims and pursuit of the shooter. Why would a United States Senator need to guess about the shooter being MAGA or not being maga? No Democratic senator tweeted, I guess he's maga. But when you're a Twitter junkie like Mike Lee, out of control, tweeting 100 times a day, you're guessing about a lot of stuff. Mike Lee proudly proclaims his Senate website proudly proclaims that he is a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and served a two year mission for the church in the Texas Rio Grande Valley. There is nothing in Mike Lee's religion that told him to guess about the shooter's politics. Mike Lee did not come close to living the Mormon ideals in his Twitter madness about these murders and attempted murders during the weekend manhunt for the suspect in this murder and attempted murder case. Mike Lee decided to blame the Democratic governor of Minnesota for the murder and attempted murder of Democratic state officials by calling it, quote, nightmare on Wall Street. He also posted, quote, this is what happens when Marxists don't get their way. And today, four days later, Mike Lee deleted those tweets after Minnesota's senior senator Amy Klobuchar complained to him directly about his tweets. But Mike Lee, who has obviously not turned to religion for guidance in this situation, refused to apologize to anyone for any of his tweets.

[Jen Psaki]

I don't think this is a person who's used to being confronted. I don't think he's somebody who's used to being challenged. And I think he didn't quite know what to do. I approached him from a position of respect and wanting him to understand what I thought, and he didn't have that much to say.

[Commentator]

He didn't even apologize to you in that interaction.

[Jen Psaki]

He said, how many times have we heard the words that go something like, I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings, or I'm sorry if you didn't understand what I. You know, that was. I mean, that. That does not. That's not, in my mind, taking accountability or responsibility for your actions. And so I. That's.

[Commentator]

That's.

[Jen Psaki]

I mean, I can't paraphrase exactly what he said, but that was the gist of it.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Mike Lee is a disgrace. He is a disgrace to the Senate. He is a disgrace to Utah. He owes the voters of Utah who sent him to the Sen. An apology for his ugly tweets, his perverse tweets. He owes the nation an apology. He owes Minnesota an apology. He owes them an apology for tweeting 100 times a day an apology for not doing his job. Mike Lee is not up for reelection until 2028. So he is very likely to continue handling this situation in the most cowardly possible way, which is running away from reporters, forcing his staff to hold up the stuff they're carrying, to try to block the camera's view of Mike Lee like he's a gangster. There it is. The gangster leaving the courthouse shot. Try to block the camera. Before Trumpism took over the Republican Party, a United States Senator would be censured for what Mike Lee did. The United States Senate would unanimously pass a resolution censuring a senator who publicly joked about assassinations and attempted assassinations. Last night, Jon Stewart shared a story about Mike Lee. When Jon Stewart was lobbying for benefits for nine, 11 first responders, we had.

[Jon Stewart]

A team of feel good foundation and a team of first responders with us, firefighters, cops, other people. One of the cops had been in the first tower when it collapsed, Right? So all these first responders are going around the table and they are sharing their stories to try and get Senator Mike Lee to support this bill that's going to provide lifesaving coverage and money to the victims of this terrible terrorist attack and the illnesses they are suffering since then. When the one cop says his story about being in the tower that collapsed and the aftermath. When he told Senator Lee about that experience, Senator Lee smiled and said, I bet you've got a lot of stories of dead of, like, what? Spring break? Like, what are you talking about? We met a lot of people in Washington. Some were hopeful, some of those meetings. Some were upsetting meetings. That was the only meeting where we all walked out and looked at each other and went, what the is wrong with that guy? The only one. I say this for context for why I use Senator Lee as the avatar for the insanity of this moment.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Mike Lee, the avatar for the insanity of this moment. Today in the Senate, the Senate heard from Senator Alex Padilla about becoming the very first senator in history thrown to the ground and handcuffed for asking a Cabinet member a question.

[Senator Alex Padilla]

You've seen the video. I was pushed and pulled, struggled to maintain my balance. I was forced to the ground, first on my knees and then flat on my chest. And as I was handcuffed and marched down a hallway, repeatedly asking, why am I being detained? Not once that they tell me why. I pray you never have a moment like this. But I will tell you, in that moment, a lot of questions came to my mind. First of all, where are they taking me? Because I know I'm not just being escorted out of the building. Am I being arrested here? And what will a city already on edge from being militarized think when they see their United States senator being handcuffed just for trying to ask a question? And what will my wife think? What will our boys think?

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Today it was Brad Lander's turn. Brad Lander is the comptroller of the largest city budget in the country, New York City, and he is a leading candidate for mayor. This is what happened to him in a federal courthouse today when he tried to ask why ICE agents were arresting an immigrant who showed up for a status review of his case in court. Judicial warrant.

[Commentator]

And I see the warrant.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

I will let go when you show me the judicial warrant.

[Commentator]

Where is it?

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

You don't have the authority to arrest US Citizens, sir.

[Commentator]

You don't have the authority to arrest US Citizens. I'm not obstructing. I'm standing right here in the hallway.

[Senator Alex Padilla]

I asked to see the judicial warrant.

[Commentator]

By asking for a judicial warrant.

Can't believe you're arresting. Where are you taking. Hello.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

You have no authority to arrest US Citizens. Where are you taking me? And with what authority?

[Commentator]

And with what authority?

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Number one is going to go with him.

[Commercial Voiceover]

All right.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Governor Kathy Hochul went to the scene, and Brad Lander was then released without charges. Senator Padilla reminded the Senate and the country today that Donald Trump was drowning before he ordered troops into the city of Los Angeles.

[Senator Alex Padilla]

A couple of weeks ago, it seemed that Donald Trump was at the lowest point of his presidency so far. He was drowning. In a week of terrible headlines. The American people were finally waking up to the realities of the budget reconciliation bill that will cut health care, nutrition assistance and good paying clean energy jobs while reducing the tax burden on billionaires. He was losing his tariff wars as the cost for everyday goods were continuing to rise. His promises to end Russia's invasion of Ukraine were falling flat, and he'd been headed loss after loss in federal court. He even had a very public breakup with Elon Musk. And I mention this only because we know what happens when the headlines turn on Donald Trump. When Donald Trump is having a bad week, he turns to the same tired playbook he always has. When in doubt, scapegoat immigrants and manufacture a crisis to distract the media from what's going on. That's the reason ICE raids ramped up in California. And when Californians took to the streets to peacefully protest, he bypassed the governor and federalized the National Guard. And even with their presence over a couple days, as things began to settle, he escalated even further by sending in the Marines. He wants the spectacle not just to distract, but to justify his Democratic crackdowns and his authoritarian power grabs. I refuse to let immigrants be political pawns on his path towards fascism. Again. If you really think this is just about immigrants and immigration, it's time to wake up. What's happening is not just a threat to California. It's a threat to everyone in every state. If Donald Trump can bypass the governor and activate the National Guard to put down protests on immigrant rights, he can do it to suppress your rights, too. If he can deploy the Marines to Los Angeles without justification, he can deploy them to your state, too. And if he can ignore due process, strip away First Amendment rights, and disappear people to foreign prisons without their day in court, he can do it to you, too, because California is just a test case for the rest of the country.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

We'll be right back.

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Introducing the Weeknight on msnbc, join hosts Alicia Menendez, Michael Steele and Simone Sanders Townsend for a spirited conversation challenging each other and our leaders about the biggest issues of the day.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

It's about knowing what you are for, who you are for. That's what politics is about. It's engagement. We are going to dive deeper into the legal side of today's breaking news.

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[Commentator]

I do think it's worth being very.

Clear eyed, very realistic about what's going on here.

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[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Congressional historian Norm Ornstein, who is from Minnesota, posted quote, mike Lee's vile tweets are not simply disgraceful and disgusting. They are more dangerous than we have yet acknowledged. Making light of political assassinations lowers the bar, making it easier for other deranged people to consider emulating the killers. He needs to be censured. Joining our discussion now is Norm Ornstein, an emeritus scholar at the American Enterprise Institute. Norm, thank you very much for joining us tonight. And I know how painful this is for you, being from Minnesota and all of the grief that this is carrying for so many of you and for all of us. But your expertise in observation of the Senate for decades now and the House Congress in general with that, how would you place Mike Lee's disgusting public comments in what you know of the history of public comment in the Senate?

[Commentator]

So we've seen a lot of vile things said by senators. You know, at one point I was on the floor of the Senate when I was staff director of a committee reorganizing the committee system. Russell Long sitting next to me, opened up his desk and as you know, senators all write their names in the wood in the desks. So it has history. One of the ones there was Theodore Bilbo of Mississippi, who was the most vile racist one could imagine. That was worse. But this is right up there, and it's up there for just the reason that I wrote about that. It's not just the disgusting element of doing this, it is the consequences of it and the refusal to back down. And in the broadest sense, Lawrence, that the rest of the Republicans in the Senate do not lift a finger about this. They don't lift a finger about Alex Padilla, which is an affront to everybody in the Senate. They don't say anything about Mike Lee and he will come and he will go and he will leave a really awful legacy. But that the Senate itself doesn't consider this to defile the body is just even more nauseating to me. When this happened in Minnesota with people I Didn't know Melissa well, but I knew her. I been around the Minnesota legislature enough. I was physically sick to my stomach. Sick for them, sick for the state that had a different kind of history. It's had plenty of ugliness, but it also had a politics for decades that one could admire. Sick for what it meant for where we are in our politics and for what we know has been incited by the president of the United States and the people around him. But then when I saw this, it set me off even more. And I was already upset because of Padilla, because, of course, House Republicans have said nothing about one of their own being arrested. We see nothing about what happened to Brad Lander today. This is a deliberate attempt to intimidate people who serve in government from pushing back to exercise a kind of muscle that says we're in charge here and we can violate every rule, every law, every bit of the Constitution. And if you don't have your elected officials, many of whom you work with Republicans for a very long time, I did for longer. There were so many of them you could admire for having all the right instincts if you liked their politics or didn't like their politics. They were there for the right reasons and they wanted to do the right thing for the country. How can you look at them now and feel anything but disdain?

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And norm, among the Republican senators I worked with across the aisle in the Senate and on the committee that I worked on, I was for the Democrat working on the Democratic side of that committee, but it included Republican senators from Utah. Orrin Hatch, the Republican senators from Utah, when I was working there, would lead the charge against this kind of indecency that Mike Lee exhibits.

[Commentator]

They cared about the Senate. And you know, Mitt Romney, whether you liked his politics or not, was a very is a decent human being and exuded decency in the Senate. Spencer Cox, the governor, has that same set of values. And they are values that I believe are actually grounded in the Mormon Church, something you mentioned along the way. You know, over decades, when I was at the American Enterprise Institute, I had a dozen research assistants and interns who came from Brigham Young University, all Mormons, that were sent to me, the best and brightest, by a colleague of mine who was the dean there. And what I admired most about them was their set of values. They were decent values. Mike Lee has abandoned those in a way that if his father, a decent man who was solicitor general under Ronald Reagan, Rex Lee, just didn't exhibit any of that indecency.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Norm Wernstein, we have to squeeze in a commercial break here. When we come back, I want to get into some of the details of the Republican budget bill as it's now moving through the Senate. We'll be right back with Norm Ornstein.

[Commercial Voiceover]

MSNBC presents a new original podcast, the Best People with Nicole Wallace. This week she sits down with NBA coach Doc Rivers.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

The resiliency that you have to have in life and in sports is what eventually will get you to the top.

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The Best people with Nicole Wallace. Wallace Listen now. For early access ad free listening and bonus content, subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

You can try, but you're gonna find it's very hard to be more wrong than Republican Senator Tim Scott.

[Senator Tim Scott]

In 2017, the CBO said the Tax Cuts and Jobs act would increase the deficit and the debt by trillions of dollars. What would happen? They were wrong. Now, this is not surprising. They were wrong on the Mellon tax cuts in the 1930s. They were wrong on the Kennedy tax cuts in the 1960s. They were wrong on the Reagan tax cuts in the 1980s. When have they been right? I don't know either. But what I can tell you, 2017. TCJA produced a 3% increase in revenues in 2018 and another 3% in 2018, 2019.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Why?

[Senator Tim Scott]

Because the Laffer Curve is right. If you lower taxes, you increase production and that means more revenues for the government. It always has worked. I think it always will work. Cbo wrong then, wrong now.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And Norm Ornstein is back with us. And norm, I know CBO, Racial Budget Office didn't exist until 1974. So the whole thing about the 1920s tax cuts and the 1960s tax cuts, what else might the senator have gotten wrong there?

[Commentator]

Well, the idea that the 2017 tax cuts increased revenue, which of course has been a fallacy that we've seen with every set of these tax cuts all along the way. I have to tell you, Lawrence, watching that, you know, I was a consultant on Veep for several seasons. If Jonah Ryan, who anybody who watched Veep remembers, had seen that, he would have said, how dumb can anybody be? But this is now par for the course. It's lying about what's in the bill. It's, of course, Tim Scott's colleagues all saying, along with Donald Trump, we're not going to cut anybody off of Medicaid when we know that the bill, whether it's the one that the House passed or the one that the Senate is now tinkering with, is going to cut millions of people off the rolls. And they're probably going to do A worse job of it or a tougher job in the Senate itself. All of the things that they've discussed where the tax cuts are going to affect people. We know now from all of the best and objective analyses and the cbo, by the way, the director of it, somebody I know well, a longtime Republican who served as an assistant treasury secretary in the Bush administration. The idea that they're spinning things to benefit Democrats is itself farcical. What we know is that they can call this the big beautiful bill, but that's like calling Hannibal Lecter the big beautiful guy.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

The big budget bills like this are always, I think, hard to follow for people out there even trying to follow the news. And one of the things that's so striking about is that there's very, very powerful polling on it. It has a 64% unfavorable. And that's just, that's actually hard to get. It's hard to get a 64% opinion about legislation as big and bulky and complex as this.

[Commentator]

And you know, the other part of this that is so striking is that the people who will be hurt the most if any version of this bill passes are the Republicans constituents. You know, the first ones hurt by the Medicaid cuts, along with working and poor Americans, are rural hospitals. We know hundreds of rural hospitals will be closed as a consequence. They can't get by without the revenues from Medicaid. The tax cuts are going to add a burden along with whatever tariffs we finally get in this bizarre process are a burden on working class and poor Americans all to benefit. Ginormous tax cuts for the wealthiest among us. It's no wonder that people, even if they don't know much in the details about this, understand that this is a destructive bill. And while we have differences between the House and Senate Republicans and no Democrats involved in any way, at some point they're going to have to pass something. We have a debt ceiling and default possibility looming sometime in the next few months. We could get a government shutdown before October 1st. So they're going to have to do something. And there is nothing that suggests that what they're going to do is going to be constructive for the vast majority of Americans.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And these Republicans are going to vote in this bill on a huge increase in not just the debt, but the debt ceiling. They're going to vastly expand how much the debt can go up even beyond this bill.

[Commentator]

That's one area where they're going to have to be relatively honest. What we know is from the Congressional Budget Office, from all of the best forecasters at universities and elsewhere. We're talking multiple trillions in increases in the debt. That's already very high. And we also know if you add in the extra costs that come because interest rates inevitably are going to go up, they're going to go up because of tariffs. They're going to go up because we're not going to be able to attract investment from abroad in the dollar or in America. And that itself adds even more to the debt burden. It's a multiplying factor. And you know, for people who have portrayed themselves and often our media, a hobby horse of yours and mine, keep calling them fiscal conservatives. They are exactly the opposite of fiscal conservatives. They are fiscal radicals.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Norm Ornstein, thank you very much for joining us tonight.

[Commentator]

Always, Lawrence.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And coming up, Trump lawyers were back in court in California today trying to hold on to Donald Trump's control of the National Guard in California. That's next.

[Commentator]

The framers of our Constitution gave Congress the authority to enact statutes governing when the president may call forth a state's National Guard into federal service. The only statute invoked here, 10 USC Section 124 06, requires that one of three factual predicates exist before that authority may be exercised and requires that the federalization order be issued, quote, through the governor. But on June 7, for the first time in our nation's history, defendants federalized thousands of members of the state National Guard in circumstances where none of those factual predicates exist. And they circumvented the governor, who did not receive the order and who certainly did not issue it.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Joining us now is MSNBC legal correspondent Lisa Rubin. Lisa, I wasn't able to listen to it today because of other issues. And so you're going to have to guide me through this. First of all, this was not a hearing about the merits of the case. It was a hearing just about a stay, meaning just about does the original judge's order on this get implemented immediately or does the order wait until more process is covered? And so that's really what the hearing was about.

[Commentator]

It was. Although if you listen to it, and I'll confess to you, I listened to it twice.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Oh, good.

[Commentator]

If you listened to it, you wouldn't have walked away with the impression that it was just about a stay. You would have thought it was entirely about the merits, because the only person to mention that we were talking about a stay here is that lawyer for the state of California that you just mentioned. The judges didn't talk about that at all. They were very interested in the larger issues here, including the Administration's argument that when the President makes a decision under the statute that he invoked, that is entirely unreviewable by any court. And I just want to give you a little bit of what happened during what I'll call the OMG moment of today. You'll remember that years ago when we were talking about presidential immunity, the President had a lawyer who went into court in the Second Circuit and said he could essentially shoot somebody in the middle of Fifth Avenue, and there wasn't anything that could be done about it. This is the analogous moment of today. One of the judges, Judge Miller, says, so suppose we had a hypothetical where there was no violence, no organized opposition at all, everything is calm in Los Angeles. And the President says, you know, I've decided there is a numerical target for the number of removals I would like to have, and with the number of ICE officers that I'm able to hire using the funds that Congress has appropriated, I can't hit that target. And therefore, I find I'm unable to execute the laws. And I want to pause there, because being unable to execute the laws using regular forces is one of the justifications under the statute that Trump has invoked to send the National Guard in. In Los Angeles. The judge continues, do you think that would make mean the definition of unable to execute the laws? And Brett Shumate for the Trump administration says it certainly could be. Again, it would follow from the president's discretion based on the facts available to him. And the judge himself, a Trump nominee, is incredulous. He says, well, wait a second. I think that would be mere dissatisfaction with the level of the regular forces that Congress had provided. That wouldn't be enough under that definition. He said, well, this is, again, the Trump administration lawyer. I wouldn't want to concede that, you, Honor. So essentially, what they're saying, Lawrence, is there is no situation under which the President invokes this statute, and he's wrong that there's no judicial review that can be had of his invocation of the statute to deploy the National Guard. And then the State of California's lawyer, you know, pointed out that this memo I'm holding up, the memo of June 7, it is so breathtakingly broad because it's not about Los Angeles, it's not about California, it's not even specific to ICE related protests. It is simply the president saying there have been numerous incidents of violence and disorder. And therefore, I'm empowering the Secretary of Defense to empower the National Guard, put them out on the streets, at least 2,000 of them, for 60 days or more if he sees fit. This is limitless. So in some part, what we're really talking about today at the argument isn't what's happening on Los Angeles because as you know, Los Angeles is calm, there's no curfew anymore. But what we're talking about is the president's authority to deploy the National Guard wherever he believes he's unable with regular forces to execute the law. And if he gets his way on this day and count on him doing this in other areas of the country, particularly cities run by Democrats where he has said he wants to up ice enforcement.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

So and it is procedurally just about a stay, even though of course they talk about the elements of the case because the likelihood of one side prevailing over the other has something to do with the way they decide whether to keep a stay in place. Now, there's a separate track, which is the original judge in this case, Judge Breyer, still has the case because this appeal is just about to stay. And Judge Breyer is having his own hearing this week with proceeding with the case at his level.

[Commentator]

Absolutely correct.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And he sees this as open and shut.

[Commentator]

So far, yes. And Judge Breyer has a temporary restraining order in place. That's what we're talking about staying. Temporary restraining orders last usually for 14 days unless they are elongated. What his hearing is about on Friday is whether to grant that same kind of immediate relief on an indefinite basis. The judges today acknowledging that hearing is scheduled to go forward. So they are likely to make a decision sometime between now as it's almost 11 o' clock here Eastern and Friday afternoon. So I'll stay watching it for you.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Lisa Rubin, thank you very much. Really appreciate it. Tonight's last word, and it's from a very surprising source, is next fired Fox propagandist Tucker Carlson had this to say about his former employer on Monday.

[Commentator]

What they're doing is what they always do, which is just turning up the.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Propaganda hose to full blast and just.

[Commentator]

Trying to, you know, knock elderly FOX viewers off their feet.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Tucker Carlson. Yes, that Tucker Carlson gets tonight's last word.

[Commentator]

Hey everyone, it's Chris Hayes. This week on my podcast, why is this Happening? Progressive grassroots group Indivisible's co founder and co executive director, Leah Greenberg. If there's anything we know about successful movements to defeat autocracies around the world.

Successful movements to take down dictatorships is that they build broad coalitions and the.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Coalition may not be united by anything.

[Commentator]

Other than their opposition to what is currently happening. And that is okay.

That's this week on. Why is this happening? Search for why is this happening? Wherever you're listening right now and follow.