Lawrence: Trump's Jan. 6 lies are a necessary part of his plan to pardon the rioters & attackers

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell
Episode: "Trump's Jan. 6 Lies Are a Necessary Part of His Plan to Pardon the Rioters & Attackers"
Release Date: January 8, 2025

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I. Introduction

In this gripping episode of "The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell," host Lawrence O'Donnell delves deep into the intricate web of lies spun by former President Donald Trump regarding the January 6th Capitol riot. Drawing from his extensive background in politics and media production, O'Donnell provides a comprehensive analysis of Trump's strategies to undermine accountability and pave the way for pardoning those involved in the insurrection.

II. Los Angeles Wildfire Coverage

Before addressing the political turmoil, the episode begins with Alex Wagner reporting on a catastrophic wildfire engulfing the Pacific Palisades neighborhood in Los Angeles.

• Alex Wagner [00:50]: "This is an event of historical nature... the flames have been bearing down on the border of Santa Monica and could move right across Los Angeles. This is one, Alex, that we really haven't seen anything like in the memory of most people who've been fighting this fire today."

• Jacob Soboroff [20:11]: "It's an awful situation... we've had to turn around because there are homes in Palisades Village that... lived in the heart of this community... Thousands of people have been ordered to evacuate from this area."

The report emphasizes the unprecedented scale and intensity of the fire, attributing it to extreme Santa Ana winds and prolonged dry conditions. The community's rapid evacuation highlights the severity of the situation, marking it as a significant event in Los Angeles history.

III. Donald Trump's Press Conferences and Lies

Shifting focus to the political arena, O'Donnell critiques Trump's latest press conference, highlighting his consistent pattern of misinformation.

• Lawrence O'Donnell [02:19]: "Donald Trump makes sure that he is the only person in the room who has a microphone. So his is the only voice you can actually really hear on TV during a Trump press conference..."

O'Donnell points out that Trump's refusal to answer questions directly and his barrage of unsubstantiated claims undermine journalistic integrity and factual discourse.

• Lawrence O'Donnell [07:15]: "Donald Trump steamrolls through his words, turning out more lies per minute than any president in history."

He elaborates on specific falsehoods, such as Trump's unfounded threats of war with Panama, Greenland, and Canada, and his misleading statements about border security and deportation statistics.

IV. Judicial Proceedings Related to Trump

The episode transitions to the legal challenges facing Trump, particularly his attempts to block sentencing for 34 felonies.

• Alex Wagner [27:03]: "Donald Trump is expecting to exercise the option of appearing virtually at Friday's sentencing hearing."

• Jacob Soboroff [29:29]: "The judge in New York has already signaled that he is going to give the lowest possible sentence that a defendant can get..."

O'Donnell discusses the swift denial of Trump's appeal to block his sentencing and the slim chances of mitigating his sentence further through higher courts.

V. January 6th and Trump's Planned Pardon

At the heart of the episode is the analysis of Trump's ongoing campaign to pardon individuals involved in the January 6th attack.

• Lawrence O'Donnell [15:00]: "Donald Trump's lying about January 6th is an absolutely necessary part of his plan to pardon the people who attacked the Capitol..."

• Andrew Weissman: Former federal prosecutor and legal analyst, weighs in on the legal implications and ethical concerns surrounding the potential pardons.

The discussion highlights specific lies Trump has propagated about the events of January 6th, such as falsely claiming the FBI has identified suspects behind bomb threats and misrepresenting the actions of individuals like Ashley Babbitt.

• Donald Trump [16:27]: "She was shot. Should have never been shot. She was shot for no reason whatsoever."
  (Referring to Ashley Babbitt)

O'Donnell connects these deceptions to Trump's broader agenda of eroding democratic institutions and fostering a narrative that justifies leniency for the rioters.

• Jacob Soboroff [38:52]: "It's hard to imagine a greater abuse of the pardon power..."

Expert guests Andrew Weissman and Tim Heaphy further examine the dangers of such pardons, emphasizing the erosion of accountability and the potential for future abuses of presidential pardon powers.

VI. Conclusion and Last Word

The episode concludes with a tribute to former President Jimmy Carter, reflecting on his legacy of humility and service.

• Vice President Kamala Harris [43:29]: "Jimmy Carter was that all too rare example of a gifted man who also walks with humility, modesty and grace..."

Lawrence O'Donnell emphasizes Carter's enduring impact and the values he embodied, contrasting them with the tumultuous political landscape shaped by figures like Trump.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Lawrence O'Donnell [02:06]: "Yeah, we hear about fires in California a lot, but this is really, truly a different order of magnitude."

• Alex Wagner [24:54]: "This is the evacuation fire, Lawrence and it's part of the reason we saw so much gridlock on the streets of the Palisades earlier tonight."

• Donald Trump [36:30]: "To the big lie of election fraud. It is strictly made up factual assertions without factual foundation, and it's infuriating."

• Andrew Weissman [34:58]: "This is really fast in your seatbelts, because that tension is. It's hard to see how that's gonna last."

• Jacob Soboroff [39:40]: "If you think that the President of the United States... is actually lawless when it comes to conduct that he wants to see... that is only going to encourage that behavior."

Insights and Conclusions

Lawrence O'Donnell articulates a concerning narrative where Donald Trump's strategic dissemination of misinformation serves to legitimize his efforts to pardon those implicated in undermining American democracy. By downplaying the severity of January 6th and redirecting media focus through outrageous claims, Trump aims to create a favorable environment for absolving the rioters and attackers. This episode underscores the critical intersection of media, politics, and the judiciary in shaping public perception and upholding democratic integrity.

Listeners are left with a profound understanding of the challenges posed by unchecked political rhetoric and the vital role of accountability in preserving the nation's foundational values.

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Note: This summary intentionally omits commercial segments and non-content sections to focus on the substantive discussions and analyses presented in the episode.

Transcript

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

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[Alex Wagner]

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[Donald Trump]

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[Jacob Soboroff]

Now it's time for the Last word with Lawrence O'Donnell.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Good evening, Lawrence.

[Alex Wagner]

Good evening, Alex, and thank you. I have been following, started following the Los Angeles fire earlier today. I was just in the actual fire last week. I have friends, loved ones, family members there today in the evacuation zone pulling things out of their homes. Some of them didn't have time. Some of them had to just run, basically didn't have time to decide what's the most important thing in their house. We're going to be covering it during this hour. A local, Bob Goldwin, who is a former Los Angeles Fire Department official, just said on the local coverage that I've been following that this is an event of a historical nature. I've heard people refer to it today, understandably, as the Palisades fire because it's happening in the Pacific Palisades, which is a neighborhood of Los Angeles. Pacific Palisades is the city of Los Angeles and it is a vast geographical neighborhood. It is adjacent to Santa Monica. The flames have been bearing down on the border of Santa Monica and could move, they could move right across Los Angeles. This is one, Alex, that we really haven't seen anything like in the memory of most people who've been fighting this fire today.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Yeah, we hear about fires in California a lot, but this is really, truly a different order of magnitude. And I'm thinking about you, my friend, because I know you have a lot of roots in California.

[Jacob Soboroff]

So we're, we're following it closely and sending our thoughts.

[Alex Wagner]

Thanks, Zach. Thank you.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Have a good show.

[Alex Wagner]

Thank you. The situation in California is, was actually predicted today just because the winds are so strong. The winds are like a windstorm that they have not seen in many decades there. I've certainly never experienced it in my over 25 years of living in Los Angeles over time. These are incredibly high winds, the Santa Ana winds. They come this time of year. And whenever these winds act up, the fear in California is that the slightest spark anywhere can be blown by those winds anywhere. And that is what you're really seeing. You're seeing a windstorm that is pushing fire across the city of Los Angeles. We're going to go live to Jacob Soboroff in Los Angeles as soon as he is ready to join us. But we will begin now with what we saw once again today in a Donald Trump press conference. It ended up with no real answers to any of the questions because a lie is not an answer. That is something that reporters covering Donald Trump will have to contend with. And quite understandably, we're unable to contend with it today. I do not believe I would have done a better job if I were in that room as a reporter. Donald Trump makes sure that he is the only person in the room who has a microphone. So his is the only voice you can actually really hear on TV during a Trump press conference because TV needs microphones. Reporters in some instances have to shout their questions over a crowd to be heard by Donald Trump. But even that shouting is difficult to pick up on the one microphone allowed in the room, which is right in front of Donald Trump. Donald Trump steamrolls through his words, turning out more lies per minute than any president in history. Most of the Trump lies land uncontested by any of the reporters in the room. Sometimes what Donald Trump says after a question is an explicit refusal to answer the question. Like today when Donald Trump said it's a military strategy and I'm not answering your questions on military strategy. No other president has been allowed to respond to questions that way and leave it at that. Every other president who tried to say I'm not answering your questions on military strategy would have been immediately bombarded with follow up questions by the White House press corps. But no one dared to do that today in a so called press conference where Donald Trump said the single most insane things ever said by a president of the United States about anything very much, including military strategy. In response to a serious question from the New York Times, Donald Trump refused to rule out going to war with Panama, Greenland and Canada. It was of course, a mistake for the New York Times to take the Donald Trump idiot bait in his opening remarks when he talked about taking control of the Panama Canal, Greenland and Canada. That was the idiot bait in the press conference. Anyone who asks Donald Trump about what is now his Public plan as of today to make Canada the 51st state or to make Greenland part of the United States or seize the Panama Canal is falling for the Trump idiocy that will absolutely, never, ever happen. Not one word Donald Trump speaks about those issues will ever happen. This is the Mexico will pay for the wall idiocy. Updated to 2025. Donald Trump knows he can't do the old Mexico will pay for the wall bit again. And Donald Trump knows that all of his bits must be progressively more and more outrageous. We are eight years away from the ridiculous lie fantasy of Mexico will pay for the wall. So, sure, it's time to make Canada the 51st state. And the press will jump at it and waste their questions about that nonsense. Canada has just a slightly larger population than California. So the Trump proposal is to make Canada the single largest congressional delegation in the House of Representatives. Most Trump voters probably do not know that Canada's future is actually not up to Donald Trump. Donald Trump cannot add any states to the United States. Donald Trump might not know that adding states is actually not a presidential power. The better question, and really the only question, if you have to ask one to Donald Trump today about Canada, would be what is required to admit a new state. And you would find that Donald Trump has absolutely no idea. Donald Trump sent his son to Greenland today in a concerted effort to make you think about Greenland. Why? Donald Trump has no capacity for embarrassment. So saying something as stupid as Greenland should be part of the United States and possibly a state. He actually said that. That statement cannot embarrass him, but it can distract the news media. It can make them far too busy to fact check all of Donald Trump's madness when he keeps pouring out this craziness that includes the possibility, according to Donald Trump today, of going to war with Canada, Greenland and Panama. Donald Trump referred to our northern border with Canada today as, quote, his words, an artificially drawn line. Donald Trump said, quote, you get rid of that artificially drawn line. That's what the northern border is to Donald Trump, nothing more than an artificially drawn line. Because if you don't have borders, you don't have a country. He's been saying that for years, pretty much every day for years. You don't have borders, you don't have a country. And now Donald Trump says the Canadian border isn't artificially drawn line. It's exactly the same kind of line on the southern border. The border Donald Trump lies about more than any other border in the world. Today Donald Trump said, I had the safest border in the history of our country. By far, according to Donald Trump, the way you measure how safe the border is is the number of apprehensions at the border and the number of deportations. Donald Trump deported 1.5 million people in his four years as president. Joe Biden deported 1.4 million people in his years as president. And BARACK Obama deported 5 million people in his eight years as president. That's a million more than Donald Trump in each of the four year terms of Barack Obama. On apprehensions at the border, the Obama administration apprehended more people than the Trump administration. Once again today, as in every Trump press conference, reporters could not in any way keep up with Donald Trump lies. Donald Trump said, quote, many hundreds of thousands of people on both sides are dead in Ukraine. His exact words were, many hundreds of thousands from each side are dead. Many hundreds of thousands in Ukraine. Many hundreds of thousands of Ukraine soldiers are dead. In fact, in reality, in the real world, Ukraine has lost 43,000. Western intelligence services estimate that Russia has lost 200,000. Donald Trump said many thousands of soldiers on both sides. A few hundred thousand soldiers would be 300,000 soldiers. Many hundreds of thousands of soldiers would be what, 6, 700,000 soldiers? This is the kind of lie that would have destroyed any other presidential candidate in history. Howard Dean was soaring in the Democratic presidential primary campaign in 2004 before he couldn't give a precise number to the size of the American military in answer to one simple question in one television interview. And that moment did enormous damage in the minds of many voters to Howard Dean's understanding of the role of commander in chief that he was aspiring to. He didn't know exactly how many people were in the American military. I, for one, don't think that that's the kind of moment that should define a presidential campaign. But politics isn't fair. And 21st century politics is so unfair that Donald Trump can lie about the deaths of hundreds of thousands of soldiers and get away with it, because it's not his craziest lie. In the avalanche of lies that was coming at those reporters in that room today, Donald Trump had one of those old guy moments at age 78 that in fact, you can have at any age. He got a name wrong. It was a big one. It was an important one. It was one he really should know. But he got it wrong. And no one cared. No one cared the way they would care whenever Joe Biden got any name wrong. Today, when Donald Trump was discussing the Jack Smith reports on the special prosecutor's investigations of Donald Trump Donald Trump said Cannon was thrown off the case. Cannon was not thrown off the case. In fact, no one was thrown off the case. Cannon was thrown off the case. Those were his exact words. He was referring there to his favorite judge in history, Judge Aileen Mercedes Cannon, who issued an order today while Donald Trump was speaking, blocking the release of Jack Smith's report on Donald Trump. We'll discuss that momentarily with Andrew Weissman. Since no one was thrown off the cases involving Donald Trump, it's impossible to know who he meant. And I'm not going to guess. That's a mistake. Guessing what Donald Trump means when he says something incoherent is a mistake. That is an attempt to impose logic on what is coming out of Donald Trump's incoherent mind, and that is impossible. All we know is Donald Trump said Cannon was thrown off the case, and whoever he was talking about, he could not possibly have meant Cannon. It would be worth keeping account from this day forward of how many names Donald Trump gets wrong when he is speaking publicly, while at the same time tracking how many stories the New York Times does not do about Donald Trump getting names wrong. I, for one, don't think getting names wrong is a big deal. I repeat, not a big deal. But the Washington press corps believed that every time Joe Biden got a name wrong, it was a huge deal. It was a news story. And if that's their new standard for the presidency, they had better apply it now to Donald Trump every day. But Donald Trump knows they won't because of the massive avalanche of lies and nonsense about Canada and Greenland and the Panama Canal. That will distract the reporters who will write stories about that. It'll distract them from targeting what they did every day against the Biden White House. We can guarantee you that the press corps will not apply the same standards to Donald Trump that they applied to Joe Biden. We can guarantee you that the press corps will not apply the same standards to the next White House press secretary that they apply to the current White House press secretary. They won't. They won't dare. Some of the most important and most ignored lies Donald Trump told today were about January 6th. Donald Trump's lying about January 6th is an absolutely necessary part of his plan to pardon the people who attacked the Capitol on January 6th trying to overturn the presidential election for him. Donald Trump made up a lie about the FBI today when he insisted that the FBI knows who planted bombs in Washington the day before January 6th. The FBI has recently publicly asked for more help in trying to find that suspect But Donald Trump told this lie. The FBI knows who it is, okay? That means the day Donald Trump takes over the FBI, he will announce to us who it is. In fact, the day Donald Trump takes over the FBI, everyone in the White House press corps will forget that he said that today as one of his many lies. No other president in history has ever said anything like that about an ongoing FBI investigation. Donald Trump also lied today about something we all watched with our own eyes when we saw the horrible video of fanatic and criminal Trump supporter Ashley Babbitt, who was shot by Capitol Police while she was trying to climb through the broken glass of a door to get into the Speaker's office in the House of Representatives. Today, Donald Trump told this lie about Ashley Babbitt. Ashley Babbitt was killed.

[Donald Trump]

She was shot. Should have never been shot. She was shot for no reason whatsoever. In fact, they say that she was trying to hold back the crowd.

[Alex Wagner]

Ashley Babbitt never tried to hold back the crowd. Ashley Babbitt was in the front line actively trying to break into the speaker's lobby. And the video proves that. Here is Ashley Babbitt very much not trying to hold back the crowd. The next thing Ashley Babbitt did after she pushed her way to the front of that crowd was to try to climb through the hole created by the glass that she helped break in that door. And that is when she was shot. It is gruesome video to watch that is available online. Many of you have seen it before, and it is only because Donald Trump lies about it that we may have to repeatedly show you the actual video in the future. Here is a still image taken from another video angle of Ashley Babbitt actually climbing through the broken glass in that door. Ashley Babbitt wasn't holding anyone back, and no one was holding Ashley Babbitt back. And if they did hold Ashley Babbitt back, she would be alive today and Donald Trump would be giving her a pardon. The Ashley Babbitt lie is a Trump lie meant to cover every member of the violent Trump mob who attacked the Capitol and beat police officers. The Ashley Babbitt lie will be used as part of the poison propaganda Donald Trump will issue when he issues the most corrupt pardons in the history of presidential pardon power, which he is publicly promising to do. Pardon the people who tried to overthrow the last presidential election for him four years ago. The Ashley Babbitt lie and the pardons are of a piece with the criminal plot described in Jack Smith's indictment of Donald Trump for crimes that a grand jury charged Donald Trump with saying that he committed those crimes leading up to, up to and on January 6th in his attempt to overthrow the presidential election. Jack Smith's report about that investigation has been blocked from public release by Judge Cannon today. A federal court of appeals could issue a ruling on that this week, the same week when Donald Trump is scheduled to be sentenced for the 34 felonies a Manhattan jury convicted him of. A New York appeals court today denied Donald Trump's attempt to block that sentencing on Friday of this week. And that is where we will begin our discussion tonight with former federal prosecutor Andrew Weissman. But up next, we will go live to Los Angeles, where Jacob Souborough is covering the massive Los Angeles fire that is spreading and has been spreading rapidly. One observer experienced Los Angeles Fire Department observer called it an event of an historical nature. That is what is raging in Los Angeles tonight. Breaking news from Los Angeles. California Governor Gavin Newsom has declared a state of emergency due to a rapidly intensifying wildfire across Los Angeles beginning on the western edge of the city. Officials say the wildfire has already burned more than 1200 acres. Joining us now is NBC News national correspondent Jacob Soboroff. He is joining us live from Pacific Palace Palisades on Sunset Boulevard, right in the heart of where this fire has been exploding today. Jacob, what's the situation now?

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

It's an awful situation, Lawrence. I know you know this area well, as do I as a, as a native son here of Los Angeles and specifically of Pacific Palisades. It's a wonderful, wonderful community of tens of thousands of people. About 25,000 people live here. You can see the Los Angeles Police Department right here and what's called the edge of the Palisades Riviera, telling people to turn their vehicles around and evacuate eastward towards the 405 freeway. What you're looking at on your screen right now is a beautiful, beautiful what was a beautiful, beautiful park, Will Rogers State Historic Park. On the other side of that ridge, which is engulfed in flames right now, is the Palisades Village. And that was about as far as I've gone earlier this evening. But we had to turn around because there are homes in Palisades Village that in the heart of this community where there are shops and a movie theater and many schools. Palisades High School is there, Marques Elementary School, Palisades Charter High School, a number of other schools, Palisades Park. Much of Pacific Palisades tonight is up in flames. Thousands of people have been ordered to evacuate from this area. I just want to Say if you're watching, because there are still people here in this neighborhood. Looky loos on the side of the road. If you are considering staying in your home, it is the wrong decision. Get out now. We haven't seen anything like this ever before, Lawrence. Certainly not in my lifetime. And I've evacuated from my childhood home during fires, nothing like this. The winds have been whipping in a way that few of us, I think, couldn't recall. It has been drier than normal here in Southern California. There's barely been any rain this rain season, and so it is a tinderbox out here. LAPD is on a citywide tactical alert, meaning all officers available in the department under 10,000, but around that number have been called to duty tonight. It is a mutual aid situation with the Los Angeles City Fire Department, Los Angeles County Fire Department, Santa Monica Fire Department, and I would imagine other jurisdictions as well been called into duty. We've been watching those airdrop water airplanes and helicopters fly over this neighborhood right now. And you know as well as I do, if and when this fire crosses over this part of Sunset Boulevard, it'll go down Rustic Canyon towards Pacific coast highway, where the fire has been burning in other parts of Pacific Palisades tonight. It's a big community within, as you and Alex Wagner were saying, within the city of Los Angeles. This is not on the outskirts. It's why it's so different. This is not a wildfire in a remote part of Los Angeles County. This is in the heart of one of the biggest communities in the city of Los Angeles. And the time is now for people to get out, if they haven't already. Yeah.

[Alex Wagner]

Jacob, for the audience, most of the time we're reporting on fires in California, even Malibu fires, which is relatively close by. It is not as thickly settled an area. The area you've described that's on fire right now. The Palisades Village is, people know, a pretty thickly settled area. The houses are close together. They're not the big houses that Los Angeles might be known for, but there are some really huge houses in that neighborhood, too. And it's the range of stuff and the ability, the way this wind has been moving, that fire feels like it can go anywhere. So that there's now a million people who are under a fire warning, depending entirely on what the wind does overnight.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

That's right. And Governor Gavin Newsom was down on Will Rogers State beach declaring a state of emergency here in the Los Angeles area earlier this evening. I don't know if you heard it just now. Lawrence But I just heard a gas tank explosion. It's one of several that I've heard as the fire has sort of whipped through. As you said, this very densely populated residential area where I am is on the edge of where Pacific Palisades. If you go up Sunset Boulevard and continue around, meets Brentwood. Brentwood might be a community that many people have heard of out there. It's just another one of these neighborhoods on the west side of Los Angeles. Pacific Palisades is in between Santa Monica on the coast, it's a coastal community, and Malibu to the north. And all the vegetation in all of these areas is very much the same. And with so many homes so closely packed together, it just takes one turn of the wind for this thing to go in an entirely different direction. There have been predictions tonight that the winds could reach 60, 70, maybe even 100 mile an hour gusts here. Santa Ana winds are something I think many of us here in Southern California are familiar with. They come in from inland and go.

[Alex Wagner]

Out towards the coast.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

But the way that this is happening right now, it is just absolutely fueling this fire of historic proportions, the likes of which, as I've said, you know, I've never seen. I think most people living in Los Angeles would say they've never seen a fire like this tonight.

[Alex Wagner]

Jacob My phone is filled with texts for people who've never evacuated before. Over the course of the last 30 years, no matter how many reports people have heard out there about California fires or fires in that region never evacuated before. This is the evacuation fire.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

This is the evacuation fire, Lawrence and it's part of the reason we saw so much gridlock on the streets of the Palisades earlier tonight. I grew up going to a synagogue called Khilad Israel right there on Sunset Boulevard by Alma Real, right by Palisades High School. And earlier today, we saw literally bulldozers in that stretch of Sunset Boulevard having to come out and knock cars out of the road because people were forced to evacuate so quickly. You're looking at some of those images right now near, near the Palisades Highlands as well, up Palisades Drive, because some of these roads are one or two ways in, one or two ways out. And faced with the prospect of being overcome by flames, many people got out of their vehicles earlier today and literally ran for it, ran for their lives. So this is a process that's not only state and local law enforcement and fire officials, but it's sort of. You heard another one of those booms just there, Lawrence. Probably another one of those gas tanks, life and death situation all hands on deck. It's a sad night in Los Angeles.

[Alex Wagner]

We just saw some tragic footage, Jacob, of the Getty Villa Museum on fire on the Pacific coast highway as you were speaking there. There's the shot of it that is a true one of the great cultural institutions of Los Angeles, one of the older ones. That is just a heartbreaking thing to see. Jacob Souborough, thank you very much for that live report. We really appreciate it.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Thanks once.

[Alex Wagner]

Thank you. Coming up today, an appeals court judge denied convicted criminal defendant Donald Trump's latest attempt to block his sentencing, which is scheduled for Friday. Andrew Weissman will join us next. Hey, friends, Ted Danson here. And I want to let you know about my new podcast. It's called Where Everybody Knows yous Name with me, Ted Danson and Woody Harrelson. Sometimes doing this podcast is a chance for me and my good bud Woody to reconnect after cheers wrapped 30 years ago.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Plus, we're introducing each other to the.

[Alex Wagner]

Friends we've met since, like Jane Fonda, Conan O'Brien, Eric Andre, Mary Steenburgen and Flea from the Red Hot Chili Peppers. And trust me, it's always a great hang when Woody's there, so why wait? Listen to where everybody knows your name. Wherever you get your podcasts. Auto insurance can all seem the same until it comes time to use it. So don't get stuck paying more for less coverage.

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[Lawrence O'Donnell]

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[Alex Wagner]

Today, a New York appeals court quickly denied convicted criminal defendant Donald Trump's latest attempt to block his sentencing for 34 felonies, which is currently scheduled for Friday of This week at 9:30am an hour after hearing Donald Trump's criminal defense lawyer's argument for blocking the sentencing. At 1:40pm Judge Ellen Gessemer issued a one sentence ruling saying after consideration of the papers submitted and the extensive oral argument, Trump's application for an interim stay is denied. Once again The Trump lawyers wedded to court with nothing to back up their claim. During the oral argument, Judge Gessemer asked criminal defense attorney Todd Blanche, who Donald Trump has chosen to be the next Deputy Attorney General of the United States, do you have any support for the notion that presidential immunity extends to president elects? Todd Blanche replied, there has never been a case like this before. So no. NBC News is reporting that Donald Trump is expecting to exercise the option of appearing virtually at Friday's sentencing hearing. Joining us now is Andrew Weisman, former FBI general counsel, former chief of the Criminal Division for the Eastern District of New York. He's an MSNBC legal analyst. And Andrew, 9:30am Friday is feeling pretty real.

[Jacob Soboroff]

It is. I mean, there is still the opportunity for Donald Trump to try to appeal to the what's called the New York Court of Appeals. Oddly, that is the highest, even though it's called the Court of Appeals. Usually it's called the Supreme Court. The New York Court of Appeals doesn't have to take the case. And then he could go from there to the Supreme Court of the United States. That's possible. But this is the thing, that's the irony. The judge in New York has already signaled that he is going to give the lowest possible sentence that a defendant can get, which is essentially no sentence other than sort of in name only. Like, he's not going to have a fine, he's not going to serve a day in jail. Most defendants would grab it and growl. They'd be like, you know, if I were representing a defendant where the judge said that, I'd be like, this is your lucky day. So in some ways, it's so counterintuitive that you would not be saying, you know, this is a good thing, take it. It also allows Donald Trump then to appeal, because the normal rule is in order to appeal, you have to first be sentenced. But nothing, of course, is normal. And the way the judicial system has handled this case.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah. And is there any way Donald Trump can sort of pole vault over to the United States Supreme Court, where he has friends get there faster than.

[Jacob Soboroff]

Well, he does first have to go to the New York Court of Appeals and give them an opportunity to hear the case. They could decide to hear it. They could decide not to. But obviously time is running out.

[Alex Wagner]

Well, just as they always do normally stay silent for weeks at a time and don't even tell you if they're going to hear it.

[Jacob Soboroff]

Well, if there's no stay in effect, the sentencing goes forward. I mean, in order to stop something, there has to be a stay. Otherwise the sentencing is going to go forward on Friday. And, you know, in many ways it is a symbolic sentence in terms of what it means. The actual verdict from the jury is there no matter what.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah. The judge has said, look, as president of the United States, there's no practical way he can be sentenced while he's in the job of president, United States. So let's just go through this procedurally so we can complete the case, which is the completion of the case. We're going to squeeze in a commercial break. Please stay with us. Donald Trump's favorite judge, Aileen Mercedes Cannon, who he appointed, is now trying to block the release of special prosecutor Jack Smith's report on his investigations into Donald Trump. That's next. What's up, podcast listeners?

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

It's Tanks, host of the It's Me Tanks podcast. Join me weekly on It's Me Tanks.

[Alex Wagner]

As I dive into topics like relationships, why it's okay to feel lonely, fighting.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Summer comparison, and pop culture's hottest takes.

[Alex Wagner]

I don't shy away from getting candid.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

About my personal experiences, and I want to share all the advice I have learned with you.

[Alex Wagner]

I'm even joined by some of my friends like Claudia Ashray, Connor Wood and.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Amanda Hirsch each Friday for our new Office Hours episodes. You can listen to It's Me Tanks every Monday, Wednesday and Friday, wherever you listen to podcasts. And don't forget to follow the show.

[Alex Wagner]

So you don't miss an episode. The last thing you want to hear when you need your auto insurance most is a robot with countless irrelevant menu options. Which is why with USAA auto insurance, you'll get great service that is easy.

[Donald Trump]

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[Alex Wagner]

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[Jacob Soboroff]

It is she didn't wait to hear from the Department of Justice. She issued the decision in a case where she had closed the case and said that it was improperly brought. So there was nothing before her. She ruled on both parts of the report. There was the part that relates to Mar A Lago, but also presumably the part that relates to January 6, even though that part of the report has nothing to do with the case that had been before her. So other than that, it was a great decision. I mean, it's just unbelievable that she did what she did. But the action right now is in the 11th Circuit. She has this stay in place. But the parties are now litigating in the court of appeals, and we'll see what they do. Remember, this is the circuit that reversed Judge Cannon twice before. So it's going to all depend on who the panel is. But stay tuned for more on what they do.

[Alex Wagner]

Tim, one of the so procedurally this seems like there's still time for this to work out so that the appeals court says it can be released.

[Donald Trump]

There is Absolutely. The 11th Circuit, as Andrew said, will they have not been hesitant to strike her and other federal judges down. They appreciate that there's some urgency, that the clock is ticking, that Merrick Garland is going to depart soon, and that if this decision isn't made on the merits, whether the report should be released, if it doesn't happen soon, then it's not going to happen. So I expect that they'll resolve the matter promptly.

[Alex Wagner]

You know, I listened to Donald Trump today, and I'm using my amateur collection of information compared to yours about January 6th, and I can rattle off what he's lying about. He said when he goes into the thing about, you know, the word, no one brought any guns into the Capitol. Turns out they did. When you're listening to this and you know all that, and you know what Ashley Babbitt did and you know, you know, how many guns were brought into the Capitol, how many people have been convicted in the charges of bringing guns into the Capitol, what goes through your mind as you're listening to Donald Trump now at this stage, the way he talks about January 6, it harkens back.

[Donald Trump]

To the big lie of election fraud. It is strictly made up factual assertions without factual foundation, and it's infuriating. The biggest one that bothers me the most is this allegation that people have been criminally charged for their political views. That the Department of Justice has criminalized speech. Absolutely ridiculous.

[Alex Wagner]

Lawrence.

[Donald Trump]

The only people that have been charged with crimes related to January 6th cross the line of speech into conduct. Actually trespassed into the Capitol, stepped over the broken glass and the bloody steps and breached the perimeter of the building, or assaulted police officers, or even worse, conspired to use force to overthrow the government. No one has been prosecuted for their political beliefs or for strictly exercising their First Amendment rights. Everyone has crossed that line and committed conduct that a jury or a judge or they themselves, through guilty pleasure, have acknowledged is criminal. So this narrative that we're prosecuting people for speech needs to be forcefully rebutted.

[Alex Wagner]

In your book, you are linking Charlottesville through other events that have happened since then.

[Donald Trump]

Yeah, exactly. Look, I was investigating both Charlottesville and January 6th, and there are a lot of things which connect those two events. The big one is that they both started with sort of flashpoint issues. In Charlottesville, it was Civil War statues metastasized to become a broad forum for grievance and anger at institutions January 6, largely about the election. But there were a lot of people there that had other grievances, angered at the government Covid restrictions, or some of the same motivation in Charlottesville. I think, Lawrence, those events show the real divide in this country. It's no longer left versus right. It's insiders versus outsiders. People who believe in institutions, in government, in media, in science, in higher education, and people that just don't think that those institutions work for them. That is bigger than any one politician. I think President Trump has sort of exacerbated that, but he didn't create it. And it will likely extend beyond his presidency.

[Alex Wagner]

You both have experience with the pardon power and how it works. Donald Trump gets up there today. He talks about making Canada the 51st state. He talks about getting green land. He talks about about getting the Panama Canal. All just the idiot bait for someone who's up there actually selling something he is going to do, which is pardon January 6th convicts, people who've been convicted. When you look at what he's planning to do with that, the Ashley Babbitt lie is very much part of the pavement he's laying down to support that. The no guns in the Capitol is part of that lie. It is entirely possible he will end up pardoning someone who did indeed have a gun in the Capitol, who actually.

[Jacob Soboroff]

Assaulted police officers or people who tried to overthrow our democracy. It is hard to imagine a greater abuse of the pardon power and the idea. I mean, I do not envy the people going into the leadership of the Department of Justice, because if you in any way believe in those ideals, you are going to be working for somebody who is the President of the United States, who is a felon, who, as you pointed out, is, you know, has his sort of raison d'etre, sort of being anti fact and anti law. So this is really fast in your seatbelts, because that tension is. It's hard to see how that's gonna last.

[Alex Wagner]

What would you say to people who support these pardons?

[Donald Trump]

They're misinformed. They're being fed this narrative that this was a glorious day with people exercising their First Amendment rights. If you accept the premise, Lawrence, as I do, that criminal consequences deter bad behavior, then the excuse of criminal conduct arguably encourages bad behavior. So my fear is that these pardons will only empower people in the future because they think that they have some sort of backstop that prevents them from being held accountable, vulnerable to continue to exercise their First Amendment rights beyond speech into violence. It will encourage more bad behavior.

[Alex Wagner]

We had a guest on this program months ago, last in November, I guess it was, who testified against his father, who called the FBI, said, My father was there on January 6, testified against him, and he says that his father. And this is documented in the evidence of the case, his father threatened to kill. And he said on this program that if you. Pardon, if he is released, then it's possible that he could come and kill his son. This is something the guy has said and promised and is in the court record in the case.

[Jacob Soboroff]

This is your point. I mean, this is the idea of if you use the pardon power, not just in the micro of giving it to somebody who does not deserve it, who's engaged in conduct that is really beyond the pale, but it then also has the effect of all the people thinking it is not a deterrent. I mean, the law is a deterrent to that kind of behavior. And if you think that the President of the United States, who's supposed to be upholding the law, is actually lawless when it comes to conduct that he wants to see and sort of the taking down all institutions and sort of burning it all down, that is only going to encourage that behavior.

[Alex Wagner]

So as it stands tonight, the only public records we have investigative public products that we have of what Donald Trump did leading up to and on January 6 is your report from the January 6 committee, all the testimony that we saw live on television and Jack Smith's indictment. What is your feeling about the possibility that we may never see the Jack Smith report?

[Donald Trump]

Yeah, it would be a disservice to history, disservice to justice to have that information stay sealed. My guess is that the indictment's a pretty good roadmap of what is in the report, but it'll have more detail. Lawrence we were thwarted repeatedly by assertions of executive privilege or attorney client privilege, witnesses that didn't show up for us that the special counsel pushed through. He was able to use the levers of the grand jury process, get immediate rulings, adjudications of privilege assertions, and get testimony from people like Mike Pence, Mark Meadows, you know, right at the center of this. I think it puts more meat on the bones of story that the select committee told. I don't think there'll be any really new chapter, but it'll be more important supporting information in the form of firsthand accounts of what happened. That's crucial for history for us to see that.

[Alex Wagner]

Andrew Weisman, Tim here. Thank you both. Tim's book, important book is called what January 6th and Charlottesville reveal about Rising Threats to American Democracy. That is your important new read tonight. Tonight's Last Word is next. Today, former President Jimmy Carter's casket was returned, was carried into the U.S. capitol for a military tribute where former president would lie in state in the Capitol rotunda. Here is what Vice President Kamala Harris said today about President Carter.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Jimmy Carter was that all too rare example of a gifted man who also walks with humility, modesty and grace. Throughout his life and career, Jimmy Carter.

[Alex Wagner]

Retained a fundamental decency and humility.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

James Earl Carter, Jr.

[Alex Wagner]

Loved our country. He lived his faith, he served the.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

People and he left the world better than he found it. And in the end, Jimmy Carter's work and those works speak for him louder than any tribute we can offer.

[Alex Wagner]

May his life be a lesson for.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

The ages and a beacon for the future. May God bless President Jimmy Carter and may God bless the United States of America.

[Alex Wagner]

That is tonight's last Word. What's up, podcast listeners?

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

It's Tanks, host of the It's Me Tanks podcast. Join me weekly on It's Me Tanks.

[Alex Wagner]

As I dive into topics like relationships, why it's okay to feel lonely, fighting.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Summer comparison and pop culture's hottest takes.

[Alex Wagner]

I don't shy away from getting candid.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

About my personal experiences and I want to share all the advice I have learned with you.

[Alex Wagner]

I'm even joined by some of my friends like Claudia Ostre, Connor Wood and.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Amanda Hirsch each Friday for our new Office Hours episodes. You can listen to It's Me Tanks.

[Alex Wagner]

Every Monday, Wednesday and Friday wherever you listen to podcasts.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And don't forget to follow the show.

[Alex Wagner]

So you don't miss an episode.