Lawrence: Trump's WSJ suit claims he's been damaged. Epstein is the one who did a lot of damage.

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell Episode: Lawrence: Trump's WSJ Suit Claims He's Been Damaged. Epstein Is the One Who Did a Lot of Damage
Release Date: July 19, 2025

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Introduction

In this gripping episode of The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell, host Lawrence O'Donnell delves deep into the tumultuous relationship between former President Donald Trump and the late Jeffrey Epstein. The episode scrutinizes Trump's recent lawsuit against The Wall Street Journal (WSJ), exploring claims of reputational damage and the broader implications surrounding Epstein's criminal activities.

Trump's Lawsuit Against The Wall Street Journal

Background & Claims

Donald Trump has initiated a lawsuit against The Wall Street Journal and its owner, Rupert Murdoch. The legal action is based on an article published by WSJ that references a "birthday letter" Trump allegedly sent to Epstein in 2003. Trump asserts that the letter in question is nonexistent, labeling it as "fake" in his social media announcement at 06:51.

Key Points of the Lawsuit

• Defamation Claims: Trump accuses WSJ of publishing false statements that tarnish his reputation by implying a close friendship with Epstein.

• Potential Legal Repercussions: If the lawsuit proceeds, Trump may be compelled to provide a videotaped deposition under oath, where he could be questioned about his interactions with Epstein. This includes Trump's past statements describing Epstein as a "terrific guy" and claims of a 15-year acquaintance (04:30).

• Strategic Implications: The lawsuit appears to be a strategic move, potentially aiming to force Trump into a legal predicament where he might have to confront his past statements, thereby exposing inconsistencies and damaging his public image further.

Notable Quotes:

• "Donald Trump's lawsuit, if big if, if he continues to pursue it, would require that Donald Trump submit to a videotaped under oath deposition..." (04:30)

• "...Donald Trump has used the presidency before to avoid depositions and will surely get the help of the United States Supreme Court if necessary to do that again." (05:10)

Donald Trump's Relationship with Jeffrey Epstein

Historical Association

Trump and Epstein were known to share social circles in the past. Epstein was described as one of the few presidents to have such a controversial associate. Despite Epstein's conviction for sex trafficking and his subsequent death in prison, Trump has shifted narratives, increasingly distancing himself from Epstein.

Impact on Trump's Reputation

Trump's attempt to deflect blame onto Epstein reflects an acknowledgment of the substantial reputational harm stemming from their association. The episode emphasizes that Epstein's criminal actions have had far-reaching consequences, overshadowing any personal damage Trump purportedly faces.

Legal and Social Repercussions

The association has fueled various investigations and legal challenges, with Trump's reluctance to engage directly with media probing these connections. His pattern of evading direct answers and shifting conversations suggests a strategy to minimize personal liability and public scrutiny.

Notable Quotes:

• "Donald Trump's lawsuit, if big if, if he continues to pursue it, would require that Donald Trump submit to a videotaped under oath deposition..." (04:30)

• "...Donald Trump, if he continues to pursue this lawsuit, will be asked under oath, how many of them were on the younger side..." (05:45)

The Epstein Files and Senate Investigations

Financial Transactions Under Scrutiny

Senator Ron Wyden of Oregon, the top Democrat on the Senate Finance Committee, revealed alarming details about Epstein's financial transactions. Over 4,725 wire transfers totaling nearly $1.1 billion flowed through just one of Epstein's bank accounts (37:55).

Expert Insights

• Mimi Rocca, former assistant U.S. attorney, criticizes the Trump administration's attempt to release grand jury transcripts, deeming it a political maneuver rather than a genuine legal pursuit.

• Tim O'Brien, Senior Executive Editor for Bloomberg Opinion, underscores the desperation in Trump's legal strategies, highlighting the improbability of Trump’s claims holding up under legal scrutiny.

• Matthew Goldstein, New York Times business reporter, discusses the breadth of Epstein's financial dealings and the potential for uncovering further connections to other wealthy and powerful individuals.

Notable Quotes:

• "Senator Ron Wyden of Oregon... Treasury's Epstein file details Mr. President. 4,725 wire transfers." (37:55)

• "This is just another version of that, but a very, very extreme and scary one, frankly." – Mimi Rocca (28:04)

Trump's Health and Mental Fitness

White House Statements

Amid the ongoing scandal, the White House released a statement regarding Trump's physical health, specifically addressing swollen ankles caused by chronic venous insufficiency. However, no comments were made on his mental health, despite rising concerns.

Mental Health Scrutiny

Trump recently recounted a fabricated story involving his uncle and the infamous Unabomber, Theodore Kaczynski. This narrative not only contains factual inaccuracies—given that Kaczynski was identified posthumously—but also raises questions about Trump's cognitive state. The inability to discern reality from fabrication in such stories underscores potential neurological or psychological challenges.

Notable Quotes:

• "Donald Trump once again this week exhibited either possibly significant neurological challenges or his uncontrollable tendency for pathological lying." (44:34)

• "Donald Trump likes to say he aced the dementia tests. Those tests could be aced and should be aced by anyone in the first grade because they demonstrate little more than your ability to identify a picture of a camel as a camel." (43:00)

Conclusion

This episode of The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell meticulously dissects the multifaceted issues surrounding Donald Trump's legal battles with The Wall Street Journal, his compromised relationship with Jeffrey Epstein, and the broader implications these controversies have on his reputation and potential future. Expert commentary from legal and journalistic figures provides a comprehensive understanding of the stakes involved, highlighting the intricate interplay between legal maneuvers, media narratives, and political strategies.

The episode underscores the enduring impact of Epstein's criminal activities on high-profile individuals like Trump and illustrates the complexities of navigating legal challenges in the political arena. As investigations continue to unravel Epstein's extensive financial networks, the episode leaves listeners contemplating the profound implications these revelations hold for Trump's legacy and the broader socio-political landscape.

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Timestamp References:

• <a name="timestamp-06:51"></a>[06:51]
• <a name="timestamp-04:30"></a>[04:30]
• <a name="timestamp-05:10"></a>[05:10]
• <a name="timestamp-05:45"></a>[05:45]
• <a name="timestamp-37:55"></a>[37:55]
• <a name="timestamp-28:04"></a>[28:04]
• <a name="timestamp-43:00"></a>[43:00]
• <a name="timestamp-44:34"></a>[44:34]

Note: Advertisements, non-content segments, and unrelated conversations were omitted to maintain focus on the episode's core discussions.

Transcript

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Now is your time to get into a new Dr. Horton home by taking advantage of its national red tag sales event going on right now through July 20th. Stop by any of its participating communities and find select red tag homes at Incredible Pricing. So whether you're buying your first home or looking for an upgrade, you don't want to miss the red tag sales event going on right now. Discover the Dr. Horton Difference at drhorton.com Dr. Horton, America's builder and equal housing opportunity builder. If you could hear love, what would it sound like? Son, can we talk about your drinking? Yeah, Dad, I think we should. Helping those closest to you think about their excessive drinking. Maybe that's what love sounds like. More@rethink the drink.com an OHA initiative.

[Melissa]

The Last Word with Lawrence O' Donnell starts right now. Hi, Lawrence. Hey, Melissa. I. I think we have to admit that it is art. I. I just think we have no choice.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Live by the Sharpie, die by the Sharpie.

[Melissa]

There we go. There we go. Thanks, Melissa.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

What a great show.

[Melissa]

Thank you. Well, if you're looking for signs that Donald Trump is terrified, listen to the silence. Donald Trump went silent today all day about the scandal he is now drowning in because of his relationship with a child rapist, a rich child rapist, raper of children who was found dead in his cell in a federal prison in Manhattan awaiting trial. Federal trial for sex trafficking charges in a prison that was controlled by Donald Trump's Justice Department at the time. Donald Trump is the only president in history who has had such a friend who he is now claiming was not his friend. J.D. vance went silent today about Donald Trump's relationship with Jeffrey Epstein. The last thing J.D. vance said about it last night was the worst thing J.D. vance could have said last night. J.D. vance, in a social media post, demanded the release of the letter that the Wall Street Journal published, wrote an article about last night, which it says bears Donald Trump's name and is a birthday letter to Jeffrey Epstein in 2003 that ends with the line, may every day be another wonderful secret. Donald Trump has not demanded the release of that letter. Donald Trump spent the whole day not demanding the release of that letter. And then tonight, when Donald Trump filed a lawsuit in federal court in southern Florida suing the Wall Street Journal and its owner, Rupert Murdoch, Donald Trump's lawsuit does not demand the release of that letter. And Donald Trump's social media post tonight at 6:51pm announcing the lawsuit, calling it an historic legal action, does not demand the release of that letter. But Donald Trump does say in that post, I hope Rupert and his friends are looking forward to the many hours of depositions and testimonies that they will have to provide in this case. And Rupert is hoping that his friend Donald is looking forward to the same thing. Donald Trump's lawsuit, if big if, if he continues to pursue it, would require that Donald Trump submit to a videotaped under oath deposition in which Rupert Murdoch's lawyers can ask Donald Trump all about his relationship with Jeff Epstein. They can ask Donald Trump under oath why Jeffrey Epstein said on tape, I was Donald's closest friend for 10 years. And they can ask Donald Trump under oath why he said publicly that I've known Jeff for 15 years. Terrific guy. In an interview with New York magazine, Donald Trump said that. And they can ask Donald Trump under oath why he said publicly that Jeffrey Epstein is a lot of fun to be with. It is even said that he likes beautiful women as much as I do. And many of them are on the younger side. Donald Trump can be asked about all of that under oath. Donald Trump, if he continues to pursue this lawsuit, will be asked under oath, how many of them were on the younger side, how many of the ones you saw, Mr. Trump, were on the other younger side. Donald Trump will be asked under oath how young they were. Donald Trump will be asked under oath, why did you say that many of them are on the younger side? Donald Trump has used the presidency before to avoid depositions and will surely get the help of the United States Supreme Court if necessary to do that again. And so there is no reason to expect any progress in this lawsuit for the rest of the Trump presidency. But the lawsuit Donald Trump filed tonight, if pursued, would be much more dangerous to Donald Trump and the experience that he would have in an under oath deposition than it would be to Rupert Murdoch. And the Wall Street Journal's reporting tonight on the lawsuit filed against the newspaper. The Wall Street Journal says Trump for years has been a frequent litigant against media outlets, filing suits against a range of leading newspapers and networks. A number of his cases have been dismissed at early stages. Public figures face a high legal bar in defamation litigation. Supreme Court president requires them to prove a defendant knowingly published a false statement or acted with reckless disregard for the truth. Donald Trump seems to love to face questions from reporters, and I say face questions, not answer questions. He seems to love the attention. He seems to love being on camera, and he has absolutely no fear of ever being cornered by a reporter because he never feels himself under any obligation to actually answer the question that was asked and usually says something completely irrelevant to the question and can go on at great lengths inventing crazy things about his uncle having a relationship with the Unabomber, his uncle the professor having the Unabomber as a student, which was complete fiction and insanity dreamed up by Donald Trump in one of his public speaking derangement moments. But none of that today. Nothing from Donald Trump today. Not a word spoken in the direction of a reporter.

[Donald Trump]

Mr. President, Mr. President, why not go further than just unsealing the president?

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Did you send money to release the full file?

[Melissa]

The Marine Band is going to be invited to play in a lot more rooms for Donald Trump to make sure that those questions can be even more easily ignored. Donald Trump is terrified of those questions. The guy who is afraid to answer White House reporters questions today is never going to agree to answer under oath questions about the same thing. That's what we know about Donald Trump. There's nothing Donald Trump works harder to avoid than under oath questions. And that's why the Wall Street Journal's report tonight about the lawsuit reminds you a number of his cases have been dismissed at early stages and a number of Donald Trump's lawsuits have been dropped by Donald Trump so that he never has to testify under oath in depositions in those lawsuits. A lot of them are just stunts that go nowhere and are intended to go nowhere. A lot of Donald Trump's lawsuits are designed to get him through the Newsday. Donald Trump's lawsuit refers to the letter reported by the Wall Street Journal as quote, the non existent letter. Donald Trump no doubt made sure that his vice president shut up very quickly last night after demanding to see the letter. And now Donald Trump takes the legal position in effect under oath in his written filing that it is a quote, non existent letter. The letter does not exist. That's the new defense. In his social media post last night, he said that he called up Rupert Murdoch and told him that the letter was fake. Rupert Murdoch has already lost over $700 million in lawsuits because of Donald Trump. Rupert Murdoch lost $767 million judgment for lying about voting machines for Donald Trump. Rupert Murdoch knows that he can lose lawsuits because he's done it before. Rupert Murdoch is a 94 year old billionaire on his fifth wife who does not want to lose a lawsuit again. Rupert Murdoch knew that Donald Trump was threatening to sue when Rupert Murdoch approved the Wall Street Journal running this story last night. In his social media post, Donald Trump said that Rupert Murdoch, quote, stated that he would take care of it and but obviously did not have the power to do so that was his attempt, I guess, to insult Rupert Murdoch. And I told you on this program last night that Rupert Murdoch can prevent anything from being published in the Wall Street Journal. Yes, he does have that power. And in Donald Trump's lawsuit today, Donald Trump tells a different story, saying that Rupert Murdoch authorized the publication of the article after President Trump put them on notice that the letter was fake and non existent. Rupert Murdoch had two days, two full days to slow down and think about publishing this article after being threatened with a lawsuit by Donald Trump. The Trump lawsuit says that on Tuesday afternoon, counsel for President Trump sent an email to defendants advising that the intended article was false in claiming that President Trump authored the purported letter, which he did not, and further warned Dow Jones to cease and desist from publishing, disseminating or otherwise distributing such information because it was false and defamatory. None of the defendants responded to the email. Donald Trump's lawsuit now says that the article was published at the direction of defendant Murdoch. And defendant Murdoch is a much better businessman than plaintiff Trump. And so we have to ask ourselves tonight, how willing was Rupert Murdoch to just recklessly allow that story to be published? How much proof would Rupert Murdoch's lawyers insist on providing to Rupert Murdoch to allow that story to be published in the two full days that Rupert Murdoch had to decide what to do about publishing this article after Donald Trump personally threatened to sue him? The Trump lawsuit identifies specific defamatory statements. And one of the specific defamations the lawsuit claims is that the article is reporting that the article was, quote, falsely claiming without substantiation that President Trump is a friend, pal or family of Epstein. Jeffrey Epstein claimed in a recorded interview during the first year of Donald Trump's presidency to be Donald Trump's closest friend. He said he was Donald Trump's closest friend for 10 years. Donald Trump proudly told New York magazine that he's known Jeffrey Epstein for 15 years and Jeffrey Epstein is a terrific guy. And Donald Trump said all of that to New York magazine in the very same year that Jeffrey Epstein raped at least one 14 year old girl who came forward to tell the story of her suffering. And that 14 year old girl, that girl who was 14 then, has never once heard a word of sympathy from Donald Trump about what she suffered at the hands of the child rapist who Donald Trump called a terrific guy at the very same time that Jeffrey Epstein was committing those crimes. Evidence in the case against Epstein indicates he was committing those crimes for the entire 15 years that Donald Trump claims Jeffrey Epstein was a terrific guy. But now Donald Trump is claiming that it is false to say he was a friend or a pal of Jeffrey Epstein. That shows you just how impossible it would be for Donald Trump to ever take questions under oath in this lawsuit when he would be confronted with his own words about his 15 years of hanging around Jeffrey Epstein and thinking he was a terrific guy. We've seen the video of Donald Trump partying with Jeffrey Epstein. It's on video. They look like friends in that video. They look like what Jeffrey Epstein called close friends in that video. Plaintiff has been damaged. That's what line 65 of the 18 page lawsuit complaint says. Plaintiff has been damaged. Donald Trump has been damaged. Donald Trump is damaged. So says his lawsuit. There are people who have reputations in this world that cannot be damaged because the person who lives with that reputation, the person who built that reputation, has damaged it so badly himself that it isn't possible to add more damage to that reputation. Is it possible to add to the damage of Donald Trump's reputation? After Donald Trump did this, in his own words, to his reputation, I moved on her, actually, you know, she was down in Palm Beach. I moved on her and I failed. I'll admit it. Whoa. I did try and f ck her. She was married. Huge news there. Oh, no, Nancy, no. This was. And I moved on her very heavily. In fact, I took her out furniture shopping. She wanted to get some furniture. I said, I'll show you where they have some nice furniture. I took out her. I moved on her like a.

[Andrew Feinberg]

But I couldn't get there.

[Melissa]

And she was married. And all of a sudden I see her. She's now got the big phony and everything. She's totally changed her look. She's. Your girl's hot, as in the purple.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Whoa. Yes.

[Melissa]

Whoa. Yes.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

The Donald escort. Oh, my man.

[Melissa]

Wait, wait. You gotta look at me when you get out here.

[Andrew Feinberg]

Like, shut this up.

[Melissa]

That is.

[Mimi Rocca]

You give me the thumbs up.

[Andrew Feinberg]

You are a thumbs up.

[Melissa]

You gotta get the thumbs up.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

You can't be too happy. Yeah, let me.

[Melissa]

It's very fun.

[Donald Trump]

All right.

[Melissa]

You and I will walk in.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Oh, my God.

[Melissa]

Maybe it's a different one. Better not be the publicist. No, it's. It's her. Yeah, that's it with the gold. I better use some tic tacs just in case I start kissing her. You know, I'm automatically attracted to beautiful. I just start kissing them. It's like a magnet. It just click. I don't either way. And when you're a star, they let you do it. You can do anything, whatever you Want Grab them by the do anything.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Look at those legs.

[Melissa]

All you can see is the legs. No, it looks good. Come on, shorty. Oh, nice legs, huh? Get out of the way, honey. That's good.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Legs.

[Melissa]

Good. It's always good if you don't fall out of the boat.

[Andrew Feinberg]

Like Ford. Gerald Ford.

[Melissa]

Remember.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Down below. Pull the hound.

[Andrew Feinberg]

Hello, how are you?

[Melissa]

Hi, how are you? Seeing you. Terrific meet you. And that's Donald Trump himself gleefully describing sexual assault. That's what that was. America has known for years now that Donald Trump hung around with Jeffrey Epstein and thought he was a terrific guy. That is not news. So America has known for years that a rapist of children was, in Donald Trump's eyes, a terrific guy. We don't know what Donald Trump might have known or might not have known about Jeffrey Epstein's criminal life. But there is nothing in this story that the Wall Street Journal has added to this story, nothing in that that damages Donald Trump's reputation in relation to Jeffrey Epstein. If you already know what is publicly available about his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein, that's what Donald Trump thinks is the damage of the Jeffrey Epstein story that he is damaged. In the Wall Street Journal article, Donald Trump denied that the letter could possibly be from him because he said, I never wrote a picture in my life. New York Times reports, quote, a review of the President's past reveals that for years Mr. Trump was a high profile doodler, or at least suggested he was. In the early 2000s, he regularly donated drawings to charities in New York. The drawings, many of which appear to be done with a thick black marker and prominently feature his signature, are not dissimilar to how the Journal describes the birthday note he sent to Mr. Epstein. It takes me a few minutes to draw something. In my case, it's usually a building or a cityscape or skyscrapers, and then sign my name. But it raises thousands of dollars to help the hungry in New York through the Capuchin Food Pantries Ministry. He wrote in his 2008 book, Trump Never Give Up. How I Turned My Biggest Challenges into success. After Mr. Trump was elected president, some of the drawings he signed were auctioned off for thousands of dollars. Even as he wrote in his book that art may not be my strong point. A line in the letter that does sound, or did sound to me, maybe one word too sophisticated for Donald Trump is the line that says, enigmas never aged. Have you noticed that? But here's Donald Trump in 2015. Carson's an enigma to me. I didn't say it. So it Turns out enigma is in Donald Trump's very limited vocabulary. The plaintiff has been damaged. That's what plaintiff Trump's lawsuit says. Donald Trump has always been the only person on this earth who Donald Trump can feel sorry for. That's the damage Donald Trump sees. The man who Donald Trump called a terrific guy did a lot of damage. Some of the girls who told their stories, told their tragic stories of what happened to them with Jeffrey Epstein said that they knew that by the time they were 18, it was over because they were too old for Jeffrey Epstein at 18, too old for the terrific guy. Jeffrey Epstein would ask them to find younger friends and bring those younger friends next time. That's who Donald Trump called a terrific guy. One girl's life was ruined in high school when she got a summer job in the year 2000 working at MAR A Lago. She was a locker room attendant in the spa. She wanted to become a massage therapist, so she was excited about her summer job. That's where she met Jeffrey Epstein's co conspirator, Elaine Maxwell, who is now serving 20 years in federal prison for sex trafficking with Jeffrey Epstein. This high school girl who got that job at Mar A Lago had been sexually abused earlier in her life. And so when it happened at Jeffrey Epstein's house in Florida, she said that she wasn't really surprised. Ghislaine Maxwell was in the room with Jeffrey Epstein the first time, and this high school girl said, they asked me to lick his nipples and give him oral sex. And Ghislaine was doing the same things that she asked me to do for him, while touching me in my private areas as well. And then at the very end, they instructed me to get on top of Epstein. And that's how the night ended. She was asked why she went back and she said, that answer is so complicated. I could have run. I should have run. I wish I ran. But fear was one, fear of what happens if I piss these bad people off. I mean, I know they're powerful. And one way you know they're powerful is, is by who you saw with Jeffrey Epstein in those days. One way you know they're powerful is that New York magazine does a profile of Jeffrey Epstein in 2002. And people like Donald Trump, the owner operator of Mar A Lago, are quoted saying, he is a terrific guy. And now Donald Trump says that he has been damaged. That girl who was afraid of what those powerful people could do to her, never recovered her balance. She took her own life three months ago at the age of 41. But Donald Trump says he has been damaged. That's what Donald Trump thinks is the damage of the Jeffrey Epstein story. We'll be right back.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Now is your time to get into a new Dr. Horton home by taking advantage of its national Red Tag sales event going on right now through July 20th. Stop by any of its participating communities and find select red tag homes at Incredible Pricing. So whether you're buying your first home or looking for an upgrade, you don't want to miss the red tag sales event going on right now. Discover the Dr. Horton Difference at drhorton.com Dr. Horton, America's builder and Equal Housing Opportunity Builder Remember when laundry day meant literally your entire day sorting loads, switching machines, forgetting wet clothes until they needed washing again? Those days are over. The new Samsung Bespoke AI laundry combo takes clothes from dirty to dry in as little as 68 minutes. No transfers needed. A new way to do laundry is here from the brand rated number one in customer satisfaction Samsung. Visit samsung.com bespoke to learn more. Based on most customer satisfaction awards Home Appliance Surveys, Leading Customer Research Organization 2020 through 2024 how many discounts does USAA Auto Insurance offer?

[Donald Trump]

Too many to say here. Multi Vehicle Discount Safe Driver Discount New Vehicle Discount Storage Discount Legacy how many.

[Melissa]

Discounts will you stack up?

[Mimi Rocca]

Tap the banner or visit usaa.com autodiscounts restrictions apply.

[Melissa]

Dow Jones, the parent company of the Wall Street Journal, has released this statement. We have full confidence in the rigor and accuracy of our reporting and will vigorously defend against any lawsuit. Today, Donald Trump's Justice Department and his Attorney General, Pam Bondi, filed two motions asking a federal judge to make grand jury testimony public in both the Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell criminal cases. The filing says, quote Notably, the privacy interests at stake on the other side of the balance are substantially diminished due to Epstein's death. The Department of Justice will work with the United States Attorney's Office for the Southern District of New York to redact all victim identifying information prior to any release. While the government recognizes that Maxwell's case is currently pending before the Supreme Court on a petition for Cheshire, it nonetheless moves this court for relief due to the intense public scrutiny into this matter. This court should conclude that the Epstein and Maxwell cases qualify as a matter of public interest, release the associated grand jury transcripts and lift any pre existing protective orders. Joining our discussion now, Mimi Rocca, former assistant U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York and former District Attorney for Westchester County, New York. Also with us, Tim o', Brien, a Senior executive editor for Bloomberg Opinion and the author of Trump Nation. Tim o'. Brien Bryan is a veteran of litigation with Donald Trump. Donald Trump sued him for defamation and lost. Mimi Roka, let me begin with you and your experience in the Southern District. What do you make of this attempt to release the grand jury transcripts?

[Mimi Rocca]

Well, Lawrence, there's not an exception under 6e for I'm having a political crisis. I need you to back me up because that's really what's going on here. You know, this could have been done before, it could have never been done. And having it done, frankly, by the Department of Justice is just so incongruous to me. I mean, normally, and in this case, prosecutors, the Southern District of New York would be standing up when some third party, like the press say, or somebody is saying, you know, release grand jury material. And prosecutors would be saying, no, there's privacy interests here. And, and frankly, there's a pending appeal and we are potentially investigating other parties. I mean, there's so many reasons that the grand jury secrecy rules exist. And really, if you look at this motion, yes, this is a matter of public interest. It's really a matter of political gamesmanship. And that is not an exception to the grand jury rule. So I think this is just an attempt to, once again, by the Trump administration, use the criminal justice system, use the Justice Department for political purposes. And this is just another version of that, but a very, very extreme and scary one, frankly.

[Melissa]

And Mimi, the people who've been agitating for release of the Epstein files were never even really including grand jury transcripts in that request. They always knew that's segregated material. They've been asking for the massive investigative file that surely must be massive and must include, for example, that New York magazine article with Donald Trump's quotes underlined and all sorts of things like that.

[Mimi Rocca]

Right, Exactly. I mean, this whole idea of release the Epstein files, what does that mean? And now, because they need sort of a fall guy right now, they want to have a judge say, no, can't do a grand jury secrecy. And then Trump administration can say, we tried, it's not our fault. See, it's a Clinton appointed judge, Judge Berman, who oversees the Epstein case. So it, it, but really the heart of the material that the conspiracy theorists and people really have interest in is not in the grand jury. It's 302 reports from FBI. That's not grand jury material. I mean, there's other issues about releasing it, but it is not grand jury material. It's video recordings, it's photograph a Lot of this came out at trial. I mean, it's not that there is a shortage of information out there, but people think there's some hidden piece in there, and maybe there is, maybe there isn't. I have no personal knowledge of that. But it's not going to be from the grand jury, which was focused on Epstein, who is dead, and Maxwell, who is convicted. And by the way, they fired that prosecutor who did that, and she's the only one who's held them accountable in any way. So that also is completely incongruous.

[Melissa]

And Tim o', Brien, included in the Epstein file, files, as they referred, according to the Wall Street Journal reporting, is a bound volume of letters, birthday letters to Jeffrey Epstein from all of his friends. And Tim, you've been, you know what it's like to be in litigation with Donald Trump where he doesn't have a chance of winning. This looks like one of those cases.

[Andrew Feinberg]

Well, it's extraordinary that he's willing to put Rupert Murdoch on the witness stand when Rupert Murdoch oversees Fox News, which is one of Donald Trump's most important messaging platforms. It is, it is not strategically sound, but I think it shows Lawrence what a desperate corner he's in. You know, this issue of whether or not he wrote this letter that the Wall Street Journal cited, whether or not he's the author of a letter, there's plenty of Twitter posts and true social posts that he's not the direct author of, but he has approved and sanctioned, and that's been true over the years. He's given his blessing to various communications that have gone out to newspapers or others that he approves of. And the issue here is it's yet another bit of evidence that shows he was friends with Jeffrey Epstein, whether or not he actually wrote in his own hand that letter. I'm sure the Journal worked very hard to make sure he knew about the letter and make sure. Made sure that he knew it was going out. I was with Donald Trump in Palm beach in early 2005. He and Jeffrey Epstein had just competed to try to buy a house in Palm beach and Donald in late 2004, and Trump had successfully outbid Jeffrey Epstein for the house. But Trump told me while I was with him in Palm beach that he considered Jeffrey Epstein to be a friend and that he spent a lot of time with Jeffrey Epstein. And that is essentially the substance, all of this, whatever the, you know, the, the, the, the kind of legal strategies his lawyers want to use to, to say he wasn't the direct author of this letter or this. And that there is an overwhelming abundance of proof that he had a relationship with Jeffrey Epstein. And so the next logical question is, why isn't he as president willing to simply let all of the documentation out into the open and not create this fig leaf around grand jury testimony, which could take a long time to come into the public record? There's other people involved in the suit who'd have to be consulted. They've said themselves that they might try to redact different pieces of the information in there. At the end of the day, Trump is in this corner of his own creation. Because once you build a political movement built around conspiracy theories and members of your own cult suddenly doubt whether or not they can believe the conspiracy theory that you've zone, and then these fault lines develop among everyone who's in your cohort, and then they turn on one another. You lose control of the narrative. And that's where they are right now. So he's desperately trying to get control of something he can no longer control.

[Melissa]

And there you have it. The testimony of Tim o', Brien, who is appearing under last word oath right now. Tim. Saying that Donald Trump told Tim o', Brien, who you're seeing right there, that Jeffrey Epstein was a friend. And in Donald Trump's lawsuit today, one of the defamations they're claiming is to suggest that Donald Trump was ever a friend of Jeffrey Epstein. And that part of the lawsuit's just been thrown out right here in the court of the last word. Mimi Roka, Tim o', Brien, thank you both very much for joining us tonight. Thank you. And coming up, follow the money. That's the rule. Over 4,000 transactions of over a billion dollars in J just one of Jeffrey Epstein's accounts are in the possession of the United States treasury controlled by Donald Trump and his treasury secretary. And according to Senate Democrats, they want to see those transactions. That's next.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

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[Donald Trump]

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[Melissa]

Senator Ron Wyden of Oregon, the top Democrat on the Senate Finance Committee, said this on the Senate floor yesterday. Treasury's Epstein file details Mr. President. 4,725 wire transfers.

[Mimi Rocca]

Let me repeat that.

[Melissa]

4,725 wire transfers adding up to nearly $1.1 billion flowing in and out of.

[Mimi Rocca]

Just one of Mr. Epstein's bank accounts. If you ask me, that is more.

[Melissa]

Than 4,000 potential lines of investigation right there. Hundreds of millions more flowed through other accounts. Matthew Goldstein in the New York Times reports. In particular, filings by four big banks flagged more than $1.5 billion in transactions, including thousands of wire transfers for the purchase and sale of artwork for rich friends, fees paid to Mr. Epstein by wealthy individuals, and payments to numerous women the Senator's office found. Joining us now is New York Times business reporter Matthew Goldstein. Thank you very much for joining us tonight. So this is a use of the phrase Epstein files that I was not aware of until Senator Wyden spoke so this expands the Epstein files from the Justice Department into the Treasury Department. With your experience in business reporting, what is the kind of story that these files, these wire transfers, could tell?

[Donald Trump]

Yeah, well, what this really shows is, you know, to have the kind of sex trafficking operation that spanned almost three decades, from the Virgin Islands to Manhattan to Florida and even to New Mexico, required a tremendous amount of money to keep it going, to pay the women to do the flights. And this basically shows how he funded it. I mean, he had all these banks behind him. He do. We do know we had rich people. I mean, Senator Wyden's investigation actually began after it was exposed that Leon Black, who's one of the richest men on Wall street, had paid over $158 million in fees to Jeffrey Epstein for tax and estate planning services. So they began to look to figure out exactly what he was doing. And beyond that, they expanded to get. They looked at. But banks filed these reports called suspicious activity reports on very large transactions. And there are four banks that filed these $1.5 billion in suspicious transactions for everything and a lot. In the case of JP Morgan, which was his biggest bank for many years, some of the money went to Russian banks. This is before sanctions, but Russian banks, lots of women from Eastern European who were probably bored over, presumably maybe as escorts and the like. So this really sort of opens up the window into great, like, the whole theory is, who are these wealthy men and powerful men who've gone, you know, unnoticed and escaped scrutiny. One way to go about it is see who was paying him money and who was getting money on the other end.

[Melissa]

So that many suspicious reports, I mean, it makes you wonder, were there any Epstein transactions that weren't regarded as suspicious?

[Donald Trump]

You know, in the end it wasn't, because what he looked at is what are called CYA or cover your ass SARS that banks sometimes file after the fact. They looked at four reports that were massive, that were filed in 2019, after he was arrested and after he committed suicide. And basically, it looks like the banks at that point labeled everything as suspicious, which is quite astounding. You know, the banks were filing some of these reports along the way. I mean, they knew since at least 2006 that Epstein was under suspicion. I mean, he was being investigated down in Florida. Yet the story of this is the banks and a lot of wealthy people continue to do business with him and basically look the other way.

[Melissa]

Have we ever figured out what his business was, what business they were doing?

[Donald Trump]

You know, well, he claimed he was a tax guru. I mean, this is a man, man who dropped out of college, basically taught high school math, once had a job at Bear Stearns. He did have some tax planning that he picked up along the way. But a lot of actually what Epstein did is he worked with other lawyers in Manhattan and brought in other tax experts and then would take their ideas and repackage them as his own. And in many ways, Epstein was a grifter for all the things he was, you know, obviously he was a pedophile, a horrible human being. But there's a lot of, you know, Les Wexner, who he, the man who, you know, founded Victoria's Secret. He was his main money manager for very many, many years. And in the end, Wexner said Epstein ripped him off and stole money from him. It's quite astounding how this guy was able to pull this off and have all these powerful friends, particularly on Wall street in government. Yet you look at him, where was his great skill set?

[Melissa]

Right? And who knows what answers might exist in the Epstein files. Matthew Goldstein, thank you very much for joining us tonight.

[Donald Trump]

Thanks for having me.

[Melissa]

Coming up. This week, the White House was forced to release a statement about Donald Trump's health after photos showed his swollen ankles. But questions remain about Donald Trump's mental health after he told a completely imagined and untrue story about his uncle and the Unabomber. The brave White House reporter who did not let that one slide will join us next with photographers zooming in on Donald Trump's swollen ankles. The White House was forced to put out a statement this week saying that Donald Trump is suffering from chronic venous insufficiency. The statement said no signs of heart, heart failure, renal impairment or systemic illness were identified. But the White House had nothing to say about the president's mental health. Donald Trump is very proud of repeatedly declaring that he has passed tests for dementia. It's as if he's bragging about his SAT scores, which he has never revealed. Donald Trump likes to say he aced the dementia tests. Those tests could be aced and should be aced by anyone in the first grade because they demonstrate little more than your ability to identify a picture of a camel as a camel. And needless to say, Donald Trump once again this week exhibited either possibly significant neurological challenges or his uncontrollable tendency for pathological lying. One White House reporter who has asked the tough questions in the Trump White House before, once again asked a question that the Trump White House press secretary refused to answer.

[Tim O'Brien]

The president told a very detailed story about his uncle. Noted scientist John Trump and Theodore Kaczynski, the late Unabomber. He said that Dr. Trump taught Ted Kaczynski. Ted Kaczynski was not identified as the Unabomber until 1996, 11 years after John Trump passed away. It would have been impossible for John Trump to have ever discussed the Unabomber with the president. So what was he talking about?

[Mimi Rocca]

And I have one follow up, Andrew. With so many issues going on in.

[Melissa]

The world, I'm a little bit surprised you would ask such a question, although I am not sometimes coming from you, I will say. And joining us now is Andrew Feinberg, White House correspondent for the Independent. Andrew, thank you very much for joining us. Once again, because of such a sharp question that you've asked at the White House, this thing Donald Trump did included all this detailed imagined dialogue, every word of which was false. And everyone just kind of grows accustomed to that at this point. What made you decide to focus in on that one when you had your chance?

[Tim O'Brien]

Well, he's talked about John Trump, his paternal uncle, on numerous occasions. And he has legitimate reason to be proud of this guy. He was a very, very, very important scientist. He was a professor at mit. He was a noted cancer researcher and helped develop radar systems during the Second World War. What he did not do at any point was interact with Theodore Kaczynski, who attended Harvard, not mit, and studied mathematics, not physics or electrical engineering, which were the subjects that John Trump taught. There was no way that they would have ever have interacted. And there's also no way that Donald Trump, Donald Trump would have been able to talk about Kaczynski with his uncle because Kaczynski was not identified as a Unabomber until long after Donald Trump's uncle was dead.

[Melissa]

And Andrew, we know how it would have gone if Joe Biden or any other president had ever said anything that crazy. Andrew Feinberg, we've run out of time for tonight. Really glad to have you back. Thank you very much for joining us tonight. Thank you for asking, asking that question. And keep at it. Thank you very much.

[Tim O'Brien]

Thanks for having me.

[Melissa]

We'll be right back. White House correspondent Andrew Feinberg gets tonight's last word.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

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