Lawrence: What did Trump's DOJ lawyer offer Ghislaine Maxwell to answer his questions today?

Summary

The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell

Episode: Lawrence: What did Trump's DOJ lawyer offer Ghislaine Maxwell to answer his questions today?
Release Date: July 25, 2025

---

1. Breaking News: Epstein’s Birthday Book Unveiled

Timestamp: [01:02] - [08:00]

Lawrence O'Donnell opens the episode by delving into the explosive revelation surrounding Jeffrey Epstein's 50th birthday book. This book, assembled by Ghislaine Maxwell with contributions from Epstein's associates, has become a focal point in understanding the network surrounding Epstein.

• Ghislaine Maxwell's Involvement: The first page features a handwritten birthday note from Maxwell to Epstein, stating:

  "Jeffrey, the idea behind this book was simply to gather stories and old photographs to jog your memory about places and people and different events. ... Happy, happy birthday. Love, Ghislaine."
  [02:30] Lawrence O'Donnell

• Notable Contributors: Both The New York Times and The Wall Street Journal report that Donald Trump and Bill Clinton are listed among the contributors. Trump's contribution includes a handwritten note praising Epstein, alongside a copy of his book, The Art of the Comeback, dated October 1997.

• Clinton's Contribution: Described as a "single paragraph" devoid of any sexual innuendo, Clinton's note stands in contrast to others in the book. A spokesperson for Clinton confirms the legitimacy of his contribution, reinforcing the authenticity of the reporting.

• Alan Dershowitz's Entry: The book also includes a letter from Dershowitz, depicted with a mock-up magazine cover. Dershowitz acknowledged his contribution, further validating the book's contents.

Key Insight: The presence of high-profile names in Epstein's birthday book underscores the extensive and possibly complicit network surrounding his illicit activities.

---

2. Donald Trump's Attempts to Divert Attention

Timestamp: [08:00] - [11:00]

O'Donnell criticizes President Trump's efforts to shift public focus away from his association with Epstein.

• Public Appearance with Jerome Powell: Trump attempts to shame Federal Reserve Chair Jerome Powell over a construction budget issue. However, Powell adeptly counters Trump's claims, highlighting the discrepancies in Trump's understanding of the project costs.

  "Donald Trump claims to be the real estate guy... Jerome Powell handed Donald Trump a kind of humiliation no president before him has ever suffered."
  [10:26] Lawrence O'Donnell

• Media Reaction: O'Donnell anticipates Trump's misstep will be widely mocked on platforms like The Colbert Report and YouTube, further diluting Trump's efforts to manage his public image.

Key Insight: Trump's unsuccessful attempt to undermine Powell is portrayed as a strategic failure to distract from his controversial ties with Epstein.

---

3. Ghislaine Maxwell's Unexpected Cooperation with the DOJ

Timestamp: [11:00] - [16:15]

A significant development emerges as Ghislaine Maxwell begins cooperating with the Department of Justice (DOJ), a move unprecedented since her criminal trial.

• Meeting with Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche: Maxwell, accompanied by her lawyer, engages in a comprehensive interview with Blanche. This interaction is scrutinized for its unusual nature, especially given Blanche's background as Trump's former criminal defense lawyer.

  "She answered every single question. She never stopped. She never invoked a privilege."
  [17:44] Lawrence O'Donnell

• Victims' Concerns: Bradley Edwards, representing Epstein's victims, expresses alarm over Maxwell's cooperation, questioning the motivations behind her willingness to testify after previously fleeing and refraining from cooperation during her trial.

  "What did Todd Blanche offer her to make her suddenly decide she was safe...?"
  [21:04] Lawrence O'Donnell

Key Insight: Maxwell's newfound cooperation raises suspicions about potential incentives linked to Trump's defense strategies, intensifying concerns about the protection of powerful elites.

---

4. Public Perception and Polling on the Epstein Case

Timestamp: [08:00] - [10:26]

A Fox poll highlights public sentiment regarding the DOJ's handling of the Epstein case:

• Voter Awareness: 80% of registered voters are monitoring the Epstein case.
• Transparency Concerns: Only 13% believe the Trump administration has been transparent about the case, while 67% disagree.

Key Insight: There is significant public distrust in the DOJ's transparency concerning the Epstein investigation, fostering beliefs in potential cover-ups.

---

5. Justice Department’s Handling of Epstein Files and Trump’s Involvement

Timestamp: [19:00] - [32:29]

Experts Andrew Weisman and Christopher O’Leary discuss the DOJ's current stance on the Epstein investigation.

• Burden of Proof Against Trump: They suggest that if Trump was involved, it would be documented in the Epstein files. However, current DOJ statements indicate no further action is being taken.

  "I don't believe that it is something... there was nothing else to investigate."
  [27:02] David

• Senator Ruben Gallego's Push: Democratic Senator Gallego seeks a Senate vote to release the Epstein files, facing obstruction from Republicans who accuse the DOJ of ignoring crucial evidence.

  "The Senate should go on record supporting the release of the Epstein files."
  [37:07] Ruben Gallego

Key Insight: There is bipartisan tension and skepticism regarding the thoroughness of the DOJ's investigation into Epstein, especially concerning Trump's potential involvement.

---

6. Expert Analysis on Epstein’s Investigation

Timestamp: [40:44] - [35:35]

Jerome Powell and other experts discuss the depth of the Epstein investigation, questioning the absence of high-profile interviews, including that of the President.

• Potential Missing Evidence: Powell raises concerns about the lack of interviews with key figures like Donald Trump, which could be pivotal in uncovering hidden connections.

  "Is it unusual that the President's name would be found in these files? Yes, if he was a close associate..."
  [28:43] Jerome Powell

• Improper Handling by DOJ: Andrew Weisman doubts the DOJ's claim that the case is closed, suggesting that essential evidence and associations might still be under wraps.

Key Insight: Experts believe that the Epstein files may still hold undisclosed information, and the DOJ's premature closure of the case is highly questionable.

---

7. Senator Ruben Gallego’s Efforts to Release Epstein Files

Timestamp: [37:07] - [42:00]

Senator Ruben Gallego articulates the political and public pressure to release the Epstein files, highlighting Republican resistance and the alleged cover-up.

• Public Demand for Transparency: Gallego emphasizes that Americans are frustrated with perceived elitist protections and demand accountability.

  "Any effort to block their release is simply continued cover up of our nation's elites."
  [37:23] Ruben Gallego

• Administrative Failures: He criticizes the current administration for mishandling the Epstein case and obstructing the release of critical financial transactions that could shed light on Epstein's operations.

Key Insight: Gallego's advocacy reflects a broader struggle for transparency and justice, challenging entrenched powers within the Republican Party and federal agencies.

---

8. Barry Levine’s Nine Essential Questions on the Epstein Case

Timestamp: [42:00] - [46:51]

Barry Levine, an investigative journalist, outlines critical questions that need addressing to unravel the complexities of the Epstein case.

• Key Questions Highlighted:

  1. Why didn't Maxwell flee earlier?
  2. What specific hard evidence exists, such as videotapes or documents?
  3. What do financial transactions reveal about Epstein's network?
  4. Details about Epstein's autopsy and circumstances of his death.

• Maxwell's Lawyer’s Critique: Maxwell’s lawyer dismisses her credibility, labeling her as "a liar" and emphasizing the need for corroborated evidence before believing her statements.

  "She has no credibility as far as I'm concerned."
  [44:23] Ghislaine Maxwell's Lawyer

Key Insight: Levine's questions aim to push for comprehensive transparency, ensuring that all facets of Epstein's criminal activities are thoroughly investigated and understood.

---

9. Conclusion: O'Donnell’s Final Thoughts and Upcoming Topics

Timestamp: [46:51] - [47:04]

Lawrence O'Donnell wraps up the episode by teasing upcoming discussions, including a guest who has extensively covered the Epstein case and authored a related book.

---

Notable Quotes

• Lawrence O'Donnell on Maxwell's Cooperation:

  "She answered every single question. She never stopped. She never invoked a privilege."
  [17:44]

• Bradley Edwards on Maxwell's Testimony:

  "What did Todd Blanche offer her to make her suddenly decide she was safe..."
  [21:04]

• Ruben Gallego on Republican Obstruction:

  "Any effort to block their release is simply continued cover up of our nation's elites."
  [37:23]

• Maxwell’s Lawyer on Her Credibility:

  "She has no credibility as far as I'm concerned."
  [44:23]

---

Key Takeaways

1. Epstein's Birthday Book as Evidence: The book serves as a critical piece of evidence showcasing the extensive network of influential individuals connected to Epstein and Maxwell.

2. Trump's Distractive Maneuvers: President Trump's attempts to divert attention from his associations with Epstein are seen as ineffective and backfiring, drawing more scrutiny.

3. Maxwell's Cooperation Raises Red Flags: Ghislaine Maxwell’s unexpected willingness to cooperate with the DOJ is met with skepticism, suggesting possible ulterior motives tied to powerful allies.

4. Public Distrust in DOJ Transparency: The significant majority of voters believe the DOJ has not been transparent about the Epstein case, fueling theories of cover-ups.

5. Political Struggle for File Release: Senator Gallego's push to release Epstein's files faces strong Republican opposition, highlighting a deep political divide over the case's handling.

6. Expert Concerns Over Investigation Depth: Analysts warn that the Epstein files may hold undisclosed information, and the current investigation might be insufficient.

7. Demand for Comprehensive Accountability: Journalists like Barry Levine advocate for detailed scrutiny to uncover the full extent of Epstein's and Maxwell's criminal activities.

---

This episode of The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell provides an in-depth exploration of the lingering controversies surrounding Jeffrey Epstein, Ghislaine Maxwell, and their connections with high-profile figures like Donald Trump and Bill Clinton. Through expert analysis, victim testimonies, and political discourse, O'Donnell underscores the pervasive distrust in governmental transparency and the pressing need for accountability in unraveling one of the most notorious cases of sex trafficking and exploitation in recent history.

Transcript

[Advertiser]

Now is your time to get into a new Dr. Horton home by taking advantage of their national red tag sales event, now extended through July 27. Stop by any of their participating communities and find select red tag homes at Incredible Pricing. So whether you're buying your first home or looking for an upgrade, you don't want to miss. The red tag sales event extended to July 27th. Discover the Dr. Horton Difference at drhorton.com Dr. Horton, America's Builder and equal housing opportunity builder.

Did you know 39% of teen drivers admit to texting while driving. Even scarier, those who text are more likely to speed and run red lights. Shockingly, 94% know it's dangerous, but do it anyway. As a parent, you can't always be in the car, but you can stay connected to their safety with Greenlight Infinity's driving reports. Monitor their driving habits, see if they're using their phone, speeding and more. These reports provide real data for meaningful conversations about safety. Plus, with weekly updates, you can track their progress over time, help keep your teens safe. Sign up for Greenlight [e-mail] podcast the.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Last Word with Lawrence O' Donnell starts right now. Hey, Lawrence. Hey, Jen. I want to prepare you for something next week, and that is that I am going to be on vacation next. Oh, no. Yeah. And so you won't be saying hi to me, but you will have some very able people here who will be getting this hour through the week. And I'm telling you, Jen, nothing, Nothing can get me back here next week. Absolutely nothing. I don't care if somebody hand delivers me the Epstein birthday book. I'm nothing. Nothing's gonna get me back here. Well, I'm gonna spread a rumor that you're writing the next reboot of the West Wing.

[Bradley Edwards]

Don't do that.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Don't do that. I'm gonna do a segment each day on some ideas for episodes, and we'll.

[Advertiser]

See if we can lure you back.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

They take that very seriously. Don't do that. Don't do that. Try to. Thanks, Jen. I'll see you week after next. Have a good vacation. Thank you. Thank you. Well, tonight, the birthday book is coming out one page at a time. That is the breaking news of the night, 24 hours after we broke the news on this program last night that a book of birthday letters to Jeffrey Epstein on his 50th birthday is in the possession of the Epstein estate in Florida. Other news organizations have credited our reporting and been following up on it and adding significantly to that reporting tonight. The latest reporting is from The New York Times. And it includes the image of the first page of the birthday book. It is a handwritten letter from Jeffrey Epstein's convicted co conspirator in sex trafficking, Ghislaine Maxwell, who assembled the book with the help of many of Jeffrey Epstein's rape victims, who Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell raped when they were in middle school and high school. We learned last night on this program from the lawyer representing those victims that they were told by Ghislaine Maxwell to help her actually assemble the birthday book. And here is Ghislaine Maxwell's birthday note. The very first page of the birthday book was the birthday note from Ghislaine Maxwell to Jeffrey Epstein. Here it is. It says, Jeffrey, the idea behind this book was simply to gather stories and old photographs to jog your memory about places and people and different events. Some of the letters will definitely achieve their intended goal. Some, well, you will have to read them to see for yourself. I know you will enjoy looking through the book and I hope you will derive as much pleasure looking through it as I did putting it together for you. Happy, happy birthday. Love, Ghislaine. Both the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal are reporting tonight that Donald Trump's name appears on the list of contributors to the birthday book. The Journal reports that contributors to the birthday book were grouped under categories such as science, Brooklyn family. The Journal says that Donald Trump and Bill Clinton were listed on the friends group, which also included Jeffrey Epstein's criminal defense lawyer, Alan Dershowitz. The New York Times is also reporting tonight on another handwritten note to Jeffrey Epstein by Donald Trump. Says to Jeff, you are the greatest, reads an inscription and a copy of Mr. Trump's book, the Art of the Comeback, that belonged to Mr. Epstein. And there it is, you see it signed Donald. It's dated October 1997, the month the book came out. That signature that you just saw will no doubt be compared by handwriting experts to the Donald signature, that one word signature that reportedly appears in the description of the letter bearing Donald Trump's name in the Epstein birthday book, as was first reported by the Wall Street Journal. Unlike the Wall Street Journal's report on the Trump letter, the Bill Clinton letter contains no sexual innuendo. The Journal describes the Clinton page this way, a single paragraph in Clinton's distinctive scrawl saying, it's reassuring, isn't it, to have lasted as long across all the years of learning and knowing adventures and illegible word, and also to have your childlike curiosity, the drive to make A difference and the solace of friends. Bland stuff. Nothing sexually suggestive in the Clinton birthday message to Jeffrey Epstein, something that could have been written by Clinton staff or Bill Clinton himself, the Wall Street Journal reports. A spokesman for Clinton declined to comment on the birthday message, which was reviewed by the Journal. He referred the Journal to a previous statement that the former president had cut off ties more than a decade before Epstein was arrested in 2019 and didn't know about Epstein's alleged crimes. That is Bill Clinton essentially validating the reporting that that is his letter. Bill Clinton is not threatening to sue the Wall Street Journal about the birthday book. He's not saying that's not my letter. Alan Dershowitz is not threatening to sue the Wall Street Journal about their reporting on the birthday book, which includes a letter from Alan Dershowitz to the child rapist who Alan Dershowitz defended in the first criminal cases against Jeffrey Epstein. The Journal reports the letter from Dershowitz, who represented Epstein in the first criminal case in the 2000s, included a mock up of a vanity unfair magazine cover with mock headlines. It's been a long time and I don't recall the content of what I may have written, dershowitz said. So that's Alan Dershowitz confirming tonight that he contributed to the birthday book. Alan Dershowitz confirming the existence of the birthday book. Of all the people mentioned in the Wall Street Journal reporting who contributed to the birthday book, including fashion designer Vera Wang, none of them claim that they did not contribute to the birthday book. Donald Trump is the only one making that claim and it's not working. And because Donald Trump knows it's not working, he's been trying desperately to create other news stories, including the childishly idiotic notion that President Barack Obama committed treason. Nothing will come of any of that nonsense, and it is unworthy of diverting our attention from what Donald Trump wants us to stop talking about, and that is his friendship with Jeffrey Epstein. Because no one can humiliate Donald Trump better than Donald Trump. He did it once again today in another desperate and failed attempt to take our attention away From Donald Trump's 15 year relationship with Jeffrey Epstein and that birthday book, a period about which Jeffrey Epstein has said in a tape recorded interview, I was Donald's closest friend for 10 years. A Fox poll shows that 80% of registered voters are following the Epstein case. Only 13% of registered voters believe the Trump administration has been open and transparent about the Epstein case. 67% disagree, including 60% of Republicans and 56% of MAGA supporters. In order to try to distract from how close he was to Jeffrey Epstein. Donald Trump chose to stand close to another white man today, although when they were standing together, only one of them looked white because one of them was covered in a badly applied orange makeup product. The man with the orange makeup is the most self obsessed human being on planet Earth, and he has full access to mirrors all the time. And that means he has seen his face without the orange makeup and with the orange makeup, and he's decided that he looks better with it. Which leaves you wondering just how much older than Jerome Powell would Donald Trump look if he wasn't covered in orange makeup? Donald Trump is 79 years old. Jerome Powell is seven years younger and immeasurably more intelligent than Donald Trump. And that was on display today when Donald Trump, in his failed attempt to divert our attention from his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein, went to the Federal Reserve headquarters, which is being remodeled, and thought he would shame Jerome Powell because the construction project was over budget, according to a piece of paper given to Donald Trump by the most incompetent White House staff in history. A piece of paper that took Jerome Powell seconds to read and seconds more to explain to Donald Trump how wrong his piece of paper is. It was the perfect lesson in why Donald Trump normally avoids confronting anyone who he knows is much, much smarter than he is. So we're taking a look, and it looks like it's about 3.1 billion. It went up a little bit or a lot. So the 2.7 is now 3.1.

[Jerome Powell]

I'm not aware of that.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Yeah, it just came out.

[Jerome Powell]

Yeah, I haven't heard that from anybody at the Fed. Our notice had it about 3.1 as well. 3.1, 3.2.

[Ghislaine Maxwell's Lawyer]

This came from us?

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Yes. I don't know who does that.

[Jerome Powell]

You're including the Martin renovation.

[Ghislaine Maxwell's Lawyer]

You just added. You just, you just added in a.

[Jerome Powell]

Third building is what that is. That's a third building.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

It's a building that's being built. No, it's been.

[Jerome Powell]

It was built five years ago. We finished Martin five years ago.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Donald Trump claims to be the real estate guy. Jerome Powell doesn't claim to be the real estate guy, but Jerome Powell apparently did very well in arithmetic in elementary school. By the time Jerome Powell was in the third grade, he could have done what you just saw him do to Donald Trump. Donald Trump was adding in the cost of a third building that was built five years ago. And Jerome Powell handed Donald Trump a kind of humiliation no president before him has ever suffered. And so that Trump Video humiliation will now be seen by millions and millions and millions of viewers. Just over the next 24 hours. It's very likely gonna be on Stephen Colbert's show and other late night shows. They'll be running that video, then it'll be running on YouTube. And yes, there's something especially delicious about a clown being clowned like that. But what's important about it is that that was the very best move Donald Trump thought he had today to try to turn news coverage away from the birthday letter to Jeffrey Epstein that bears Donald Trump's name and what we now know to be several copies of the birthday book. Tonight, the Wall Street Journal is reporting this. The letter bearing Trump's signature, which had the outline of a naked woman, was one of the more memorable pages, according to the people involved in putting the album together. Last night on this program, Bradley Edwards told us who helped Ghislaine Maxwell put that book together. You said that some of your clients have specific knowledge of that birthday book.

[Bradley Edwards]

Sure. Yes. More than one multiple of them.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And what is that knowledge? They saw it or they were around him when he was 50 years old. Were they present at his birthday, his 50th birthday?

[Bradley Edwards]

I don't know the answer to that last question. I do know that they were involved in the assembly of the book. Several of them, they were told by Ghislaine to assist in putting the book together. Others have seen the book post, post birthday and after it was assembled.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Some of Jeffrey Epstein's victims were actually used by Ghislaine Maxwell to assemble that birthday book, to actually put those letters together in that book. Yeah.

[Bradley Edwards]

You have to remember that Jeffrey Epstein was abusing and exploiting young women and children every day of his life. So anybody that's around for any major event, such as the assembly of his 50th birthday book, they're going to have to be involved in assembling or playing their part, whatever they were directed to do with respect to that book.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Wall Street Journal reported at 7:08pm tonight. Brad Edwards, a lawyer who has represented more than 200 of Epstein's victims, said on MSNBC Wednesday evening that he has multiple clients who remember the birthday book. The existence of the book is an absolute fact. Edwards said Several. Several digital copies of the album have been created. Pages have been reviewed by Justice Department officials who investigated Jeffrey Epstein and Maxwell years ago. According to people familiar with the matter, the album is part of Epstein's estate. Several copies means that the likelihood of the birthday book becoming public is increasing exponentially. MSNBC's legal correspondent Lisa Rubin, a frequent and valuable guest on this program, asked Ghislaine Maxwell's lawyer tonight, does Maxwell herself have the book? And Maxwell's lawyer declined to comment. But today, Ghislaine Maxwell's criminal defense lawyer spent most of his day hanging with Donald Trump's criminal defense lawyer. Todd Blanche's last job before becoming the number two at the Justice Department as the Deputy Attorney General was serving as Donald Trump's criminal defense lawyer in his criminal the criminal cases that Donald Trump was facing last year. Todd Blanch lost the one case that went to trial and he still delighted in his failing final argument to the jury in which he called the prosecution witness Michael Cohen, Donald Trump's former lawyer. The greatest liar of all time. Here is criminal defense lawyer Todd Blanche, after losing that trial last year, talking about that trial with Ghislaine Maxwell's criminal defense lawyer, who Todd Blanche spent the day with today.

[Todd Blanche]

Last thing about the closing. So. So you called him the MVP of liars. I love the gloat line. Of course you loved it because you.

[David]

Gave it to me, David. Say it to the world.

[Bradley Edwards]

So it was genius, David.

[David]

And I mean in all seriousness to you.

[Bradley Edwards]

I know a lot of people that.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Have worked with you.

[David]

I know a lot of people who.

[Bradley Edwards]

Know you very well. I now consider you a friend and someone who I know pretty well. You are, are the best out there and I'll always say yes to this podcast.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Those two friends met today in what is the first time in Justice Department history that a deputy Attorney General seized a case away from the prosecutor handling the case. After firing that prosecutor last week, Maureen Comey, and then taking it upon himself to go have a meeting with a convicted sex trafficker who was also charged with perjury. There is absolutely no legitimate basis for such a meeting with the Deputy Attorney General, former criminal defense lawyer for Donald Trump, who gave every appearance today of still functioning as in effect, Donald Trump's criminal defense lawyer. Could Todd Blanche have any other purpose in talking to Ghislaine Maxwell than trying to get her to say something positive about his client, Donald Trump? Todd Blanch tweeted today. Today I met with Ghislaine Maxwell and I will continue my interview of her tomorrow. The Department of Justice will share additional information about what we learned at the appropriate time. Ghislaine Maxwell's lawyer said this after the strangest meeting a criminal defense lawyer has ever had with a Deputy Attorney General of the United States. Good to see you all. How's it going?

[Ruben Gallego]

Great.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Come on over. Leah.

[Todd Blanche]

Hi, everybody. Nice to see you all. We had a very productive day today with the Deputy Attorney General, Todd Blanche and Ghislaine Maxwell. First, we want to thank the Deputy Attorney General for being so professional with all of us and for meeting with us. He took a full day and asked a lot of questions, and Ms. Maxwell answered every single question. She never stopped. She never invoked a privilege. She never declined to answer. She answered all the questions truthfully, honestly and to. To the best of her ability. And that's all the comment we're going to have today about the meeting.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And so tonight, the victims of Jeffrey Epstein, who were in middle school and high school when Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell raped them together, have more to fear tonight from Ghislaine Maxwell. Thanks to Donald Trump. Donald Trump's former criminal defense lawyer offered Ghislaine Maxwell what exactly what to answer his questions today. Ghislaine Maxwell, who never testified in her own defense in her criminal trial, knowing she was facing a possible 20 years in prison, suddenly decided today that she would talk to a criminal prosecutor for the first time in her life. She could have done that when she and Jeffrey Epstein were both charged for those crimes, but she didn't. She fled. She was hiding out in New Hampshire when she was tracked down by federal agents and apprehended. And even though she was facing a federal criminal trial in which she knew there wasn't one word of testimony that she could give to that jury under oath, that wouldn't make the case against her even worse. That's what she knew. That's why criminal defendants like Ghislaine Maxwell don't testify. If Ghislaine Maxwell thought for a second that she could have helped herself with the jury, with even one juror, by testifying, she would have testified. But she knew, and her criminal defense attorney knew that the testimony against Ghislaine Maxwell by her victims, who she personally raped along with Jeffrey Epstein, she didn't just lure them into being raped by Jeffrey Epstein. She joined Jeffrey Epstein in the room and joined personally in raping those girls. She knew that that testimony against her in court was something she could not possibly overcome. And so she didn't say a word. She decided there's nothing that she could say under oath to counter that testimony. But today, according to her lawyer, she answered every question. She never stopped. She never invoked privilege. What did Todd Blanche offer her to make her suddenly decide she was safe with Donald Trump's former criminal defense attorney? Why did Ghislaine Maxwell decide today that she could Tell Donald Trump's former criminal defense attorney anything and it couldn't possibly get her in more trouble. Here is what Bradley Edwards, the lawyer for hundreds of Epstein and Maxwell victims, told us last night.

[Bradley Edwards]

One thing that has really alarmed our clients particularly today is the information that now Ghislain Maxwell is being visited in jail and that she is somehow being given some credibility and a platform on this particular topic. I think what people are forgetting is that Ghislaine Maxwell wasn't only indicted on sex trafficking charges. Ghislaine Maxwell, because of testimony she gave on multiple occasions in the civil cases where we sued her, she provided testimony, and as a consequence of false testimony, she was indicted on two perjury counts on this particular topic. So we're at, we're going to go and ask somebody to tell the truth who was indicted on perjury charges related to this particular topic. Now, does she have information that could potentially help?

[Advertiser]

Yes.

[Bradley Edwards]

Will she be truthful about it? Who knows? But whoever is going to be the questioner, whoever's going to be the interrogator, must know more than just a rudimentary understanding of the case. You have to have seen her other deposition transcripts to know what she said so that you can keep her in line. You have to know her testimony from her criminal trial to keep her in line. And you have to understand the case. Sending somebody there that knows nothing, she's going to say whatever she wants to say. And what's her incentive? Is there incentive because she's going to get a deal? I have many clients who say, look, President Trump and Ghislaine Maxwell were good friends back then. Is he going to commute her? Is he going to pardon her? And I have said to them, look, I know that you feel like an afterthought right now. I know that you feel like you don't matter. For him to do that would be he thought about you and he decided you don't do not matter.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Good friends back then Donald Trump and Ghislaine Maxwell were good friends. And it looks like Donald Trump's former criminal defense lawyer and Ghislaine Maxwell's criminal defense lawyer are trying to make them good friends once again. Andrew Wiseman will join us after this break.

[Advertiser]

Now is your time to get into a new Dr. Horton home by taking advantage of their national red tag sales event, now extended through July 27. Stop by any of their participating communities and find select red tag homes at incredible pricing. So whether you're buying your first home or looking for an upgrade, you don't Want to miss the red tag sales event extended to July 27th. Discover the Dr. Horton Difference at Dr. Horton.com Dr. Horton America's Builder and Equal Housing Opportunity Builder.

Did you know that parents rank financial literacy as the number one most difficult life skill to teach? Meet Greenlight, the debit card and money app for families with Greenlight. You can set up chores, automate allowance and keep an eye on your kids spending with real time notifications. Kids learn to earn, save and spend wisely and parents can rest easy knowing their kids are learning about money with guardrails in place. Sign up for Greenlight [e-mail] podcast. Want to pull off the season's freshest trends? You just need the right shoes. That's where Designer Shoe Warehouse comes in. Loving wide leg jeans. Pair them with sleek low profile sneakers. Obsessed with the sheer trend. Try it with mesh flats, feeling boho, comfy sandals. Nail the whole free spirited thing. Find on trend shoes from the brands you love like Birkenstock, Nike, Adidas and more at dsw.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

In a Justice Department filing in the Ghislaine Maxwell case in 2020, the Justice Department then said the defendant's willingness to brazenly lie under oath about her conduct, including some of the conduct charged in the indictment, strongly suggests her true motive has been and remains to avoid being held accountable for her crimes. Joining us now is Andrew Weisman, former FBI general counsel and former chief of the Criminal Division in the Eastern District of New York. Also with us, Christopher o', Leary, former assistant special Agent in charge of New York Joint Terrorism Task Force, also served as chief of the FBI Counterterrorism Flight Team. They're both MSNBC analysts. And Andrew, to that point that I just read justice department in 2020 saying, talking about Ghislaine Maxwell's willingness to brazenly lie under oath, how would that work? Today in a room with Todd Blanch.

[David]

This is why the comment from your guest yesterday was so on point. If you're going to try to get truthful information from her at this very late date, you need to have the team, the FBI agents, the prosecutors, prosecutors who investigated this, who know chapter and verse about what she has said, what she has done, what all of the other witnesses say. Otherwise, what it really appears to be is an effort to have Glenn Maxwell simply exonerate Donald Trump, regardless of whether it is truthful or not. That is obviously her motive right now is to get a benefit. And that could be up to and including, as you mentioned, a full, full pardon. And the only way that you can really assure that she was telling the truth is to have people who really know the evidence. And you know, we've talked about this, which is that is not the deputy Attorney General of the United States who is new to the case and is doesn't have career people there at all. So it's, it's just a highly, highly suspicious circumstance.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And Andrew, this is the same Trump Justice Department that just said a few weeks ago that there's absolutely nothing more in the Epstein case, that they've examined all of the Epstein files and there's nothing else to pursue, there's nothing else to investigate, there's nothing else to report on that was the Pam Bondi official public report about the Epstein files?

[David]

Well, I have to say, personally, I just don't believe that it is something if you heard that from the career people who know this case inside out. But are we really supposed to believe, and I don't, that the only two people who participated in this are Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell, that there were no other people who participated at all? And I think one sort of red herring here is this idea that there's no quote, unquote, client list. Whether it's, you know, there's a piece of paper that says client list at the top of it. It seems impossible to think that the FB on this case and the prosecutors on this case didn't put together a list of everyone who they thought was complicit with Mr. Epstein and with Ms. Maxwell, whether you call it a client list or not. And so I think there's just a lot more to come out. And I don't think we're being, you know, told the truth about what's happened.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Christopher o', Leary, if you were working a case like this with the FBI and you've worked in the New York office where a lot of this work was done, what kind of lists would you expect to find in the Epstein files?

[Jerome Powell]

Well, you know, I think Andrew hits on the point. Maybe there's not a list that, you know, Jeffrey Epstein was keeping or Ghislaine Maxwell was keeping. However, any investigator, any agent that's working in this case is going to identify the close associates of the subject of the investigation and then start determining what's the nature of that relationship. When were they co located in a place where criminal activity was happening? And so those individuals might have been there innocently, but you would still want to dig deeper. So one thing that jumps out at me, and I was discussing this with the colleague earlier, is I would like to know, was the President interviewed as part of this investigation? And I don't think that's been answered yet. I don't think it's really been asked by that many people. It would be unusual for the types of investigations that I worked or that my fellow agents and investigators worked, that we would not have tried to approach that close associate and see if they were willing to cooperate. And if they weren't, then it begs the question why? And I don't think we've seen that yet. Is it unusual that the President's name would be found in these files? No, if he was a close associate, it would be unusual if there wasn't further investigation.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

So I asked you this in an office the other day here in the building about, you know, if you were working this case in the New York office, the FBI, and you came across the New York magazine profile of Donald Trump, saying, I've known him for 15 years. He's a terrific guy. He likes beautiful women, especially on the younger side. If you read that article, would, would your to do list include let's go talk to Donald Trump?

[Jerome Powell]

It would be, and the first thing I think myself or other agents would do is try to find out more about him, try to find out is he approachable, how do we go about this? So what I would understand the person I want to go talk to and set the conditions for trying to do that in the best way. Will he be a cooperator or is he possibly somebody that we should be looking at more on the investigative side? And possibly he's involved in this somehow. So you would do that. You would really do your homework before, you know, just going approach him. But you would be negligent if you did not take that approach, if you did not actually try to speak with Donald Trump back then, now the President of the United States.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And Andrew, no reporter who's ever gotten close to Donald Trump has ever asked him. Chris's question. Did the FBI interview you? Did you cooperate with this investigation in any way?

[David]

Absolutely. You know, I am reminded, listening to the two of you, having worked on the Mueller investigation of the president, saying over and over again that he'd be happy to meet with us, only to have him renege and not do that. And, you know, his unwillingness to testify at his first impeachment trial, at his second impeachment trial, in his criminal case, of course he's not required to, but that is not the standard one has for somebody who's in elected office. So it's an excellent question. This is exactly what this Is, by the way, just goes to the point that you would not have this interview conducted by somebody who does not know the case unless you're trying to neutralize the witness or get a sort of false exculpatory statement. If you're really trying to get at the truth, you would have experienced prosecutors and agents who know this case do the interview so that you actually get valuable information and not a whitewash.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Chris, if, if Donald Trump was interviewed in this investigation, what would, what would the evidence of that be in the Epstein files? What would we find?

[Jerome Powell]

So, FBI agents, one of the core skills of the FBI is to do interviews and interrogations. We talk to people all the time, though all of those notes would be memorialized in what we call an FD302. It's just a transcript of exactly what was exchanged. That would absolutely be in the Epstein file. There's no doubt that could be released immediately. And one thing I'll point out, having interviewed and interrogated countless people over the years, people who are innocent generally, when accused of something, are emphatic about their innocence, and they want to have you produce what's suspicious. If it was a file, innocent people will show me that file. Point to me where you're saying I did something wrong. We'll go through it page by page. Innocent people tend to get really aggressive about this. People who are trying to cover something up tend to do the opposite or sidestep a question. If you look at his response just the other day when asked, was he told that his name was in the file? He tried to sidestep it, traditionally speaking. And that doesn't mean that, you know, he's guilty of something. But traditionally speaking, that's not how innocent people respond to such a question.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And, Andrew, we now have conclusive reporting that Donald Trump was, of course, told by Pam Bondi that his name appears in the Epstein files repeatedly, multiple times.

[David]

Look, that certainly gives an explanation for the flip flop where you have the administration saying that they're going to make everything public and they're going to be transparent about everything. And then the reporting is that lots of FBI agents were pulled from otherwise valid work and important work to go through these files to find every time that his name was mentioned. And so you're left to think that the reason for them changing their view with, with, you know, large political consequences as a result of it having fomented this sort of conspiracy theory is because his name is there. And you have Donald Trump's reaction to this, which is, you know, very much sort of a very suspicious protesting too much. And so, you know, it's a, it is a confluence of sort of red flags that we have in front of us.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Andrew Weissman and Christopher o', Leary, thank you both very much for your invaluable expertise on this tonight. Really appreciate it. And coming up, Democratic Senator Ruben Gallego has tried to get a Senate vote on releasing the Epstein files, and that was blocked by Republicans today. He'll join us next.

[Advertiser]

Now is your time to get into a new Dr. Horton home by taking advantage of their national red tape tag sales event, now extended through July 27. Stop by any of their participating communities and find select red tag homes at incredible pricing. So whether you're buying your first home or looking for an upgrade, you don't want to miss the red tag sales event extended to July 27th. Discover the Dr. Horton Difference at Dr. Horton.com Dr. Horton, America's builder and equal housing opportunity builder.

Did you know that parents rank financial literacy as the number one most difficult life skill to teach? Meet Greenlight, the debit card and money app for families. With Greenlight, you can set up chores, automate allowance and keep an eye on your kids spending with real time notifications, kids learn to earn, save and spend wisely. And parents can rest easy knowing their kids are learning about money with guardrails in place. Sign up for Greenlight [e-mail] podcast possibility.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Means you have a chance.

[Todd Blanche]

Passion opens the door to all possibilities.

[Advertiser]

When I feel like anything's possible, I.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Feel kind of giddy. I want to be an astronaut, an artist, be an actress, to visit another country.

[Bradley Edwards]

All I need is a backpack and.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

A pair of shoes and I'll find a way I'm able to do anything I set my mind to. I've never felt like more things are possible than right now. In the right shoes, anything's possible.

[Advertiser]

Dsw countless shoes at bragworthy prices. Imagine the possibilities.

[Ruben Gallego]

If Donald Trump really wants these files released, they'd be out already. Instead, he's orchestrating a cover up and he is not acting alone. The entire Republican Party, the FBI director, the intelligence community and the Justice Department are backing him up.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

To bury the truth, our next guest, Democratic Senator Ruben Gallego of Arizona, introduced a resolution on the Senate floor today calling for the Justice Department to release the Epstein files. A vote on Senator Gallego's motion was blocked by Republican Senator Mark Wayne Mullen of Oklahoma.

[Ruben Gallego]

The Senate should go on record supporting the release of the Epstein files. Any effort to block their release is simply continued cover up of our nation's elites. While I stand here on the Senate floor demanding answers. House Republicans have ran for the exit, ended their term early, skipping town early to avoid taking up any more discussion about Epstein and the files. They didn't just punt accountability, they literally fled Washington, D.C. while everyday Americans are struggling to afford their groceries and their health care, we have a president in the White House focused on protecting the most powerful men and women who preyed on children. This is who Donald Trump really is.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Joining us now is Democratic Senator Ruben Gallo of Arizona is a member of the Senate Banking Committee and the Homeland Security. Senator, thank you very much for joining us tonight. The way this story is moving tonight, it seems like we may have a new page from the birthday book every day. Is the pressure building in the Senate the way it's so obviously built in the House to the point where they just blew up the place and went home?

[Ruben Gallego]

Not quite yet. I mean, this is why my efforts, again, this is my second effort actually to try to get the Senate to actually vote on whether or not we should have these Epstein files released. And what we saw today was a new wrinkle done by the Senate where they were trying to kind of basically do a quick flim flam trick where they're saying, well, we want you to vote to release the grand jury testimony, which we already saw that nothing came of that because they know that they actually are starting to feel the pressure, pressure from people in their districts, pressure from the public that at this point it just stinks. And I think what is happening right now is there's just a lot of Americans that know when there's a cover up happening. They know when the elite are using government to take care of themselves. And they see it right now and it's starting to put these pressure on these, you know, Republican senators that normally can be above it. But we're going to continue to put this pressure on them because people deserve to know the truth. What has been going on for the last eight years? Were they just lying and talking about, you know, potentially, you know, DOJ employees covering up for something that didn't happen? Did they put Ms. Maxwell in jail for nothing that didn't happen? Or is Donald Trump continuing what we know he's always done? He's just taking care of his rich elite friends and using the federal government now to do it?

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And the very concept of the Epstein files has expanded since this story began with Senator Wyden, the top Democrat in the Senate Finance Committee, revealing that there are 4,000 transactions that the United States treasury has a record of more than a billion dollars of Jeffrey Epstein international transactions that Senator Wyden believes would be very helpful in tracking how Jeffrey Epstein managed this international sex trafficking.

[Ruben Gallego]

Yeah, look, this is an administration that right now is trying to hunt down, you know, in Arizona, a woman that's been here for 21 years who has, you know, a U.S. citizen child, a U.S. citizen husband who has started a business, but they're not willing to look into a man, Jeffrey Epstein, who was involved in international sex trafficking, both of women and of Johnson clients from all over the world. And why is that? Because these are people that are dear and close friends to Donald Trump or were business associates, or somehow he was involved and he's embarrassed by it. But all that being said, the American public deserves to know. And let's remind people this issue would not have been an issue if it wasn't for the Trump administration bringing it to the floor. It was Attorney General Pam Bondi who said to us, I have the list. It is now sitting on my desk. And then went on to these shenanigans to basically hide that for the next couple of weeks. So now the American public wants to know, why are you lying? They sense that there is something wrong, and they certainly sense when government is lying to them, and they definitely feel it when they're doing it to really protect the most elite of this country.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Senator Ruben Gallego, thank you very much for joining our discussion tonight.

[Ruben Gallego]

Gracias.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And coming up, our next guest has covered the Jeffrey Epstein case for decades and written a book about it, published a set of questions in the New York Times that he hopes the Epstein files can answer. He will join us next. Our next guest, Barry Levine's new essay in the New York Times is titled I Covered the Epstein Case For Decades. These are nine questions we actually need answered. Barry Levine is the author of the Inside the Criminal Web of Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell, and he joins us now. Barry, your nine questions are fantastic. And actually, I'm going to invite you right now to come back on the program. Program, because I'd like to go through each one of them. But I would like you, since you know the questions, to ask. What are the questions that you would have asked if you were allowed to question Ghislaine Maxwell today the way Donald Trump's former criminal defense lawyer did?

[Ghislaine Maxwell's Lawyer]

Well, Lawrence, I probably would have started with the incident that took place, the very first incident when he took Jeffrey Epstein, took her to a camp in Michigan where he had, as a boy, was a musical student. And at that camp they moved on a 13 year old girl and convinced her to come to Florida. And Jeffrey Epstein subsequently attacked her, sexually abused her. And I have, I guess, Ms. Maxwell, why didn't you just run? Why don't you run from this man? Because none of this would have ever happened. But what happened over the next several years was that, was that she groomed so many victims, she took part in their sexual abuse. And I still don't understand why she went along with his sex trafficking when she could have, you know, she was a smart, intelligent woman and she could have escaped on her own. That's what I don't understand.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

And she's never really been questioned about this. She's been under oath in some civil cases. That's where the perjury charges came from, was in the, on the, and the lawsuits. That's where she got in trouble. So what do you think people need to know about? I feel silly to even ask this. Her credibility in any of these matters.

[Ghislaine Maxwell's Lawyer]

Well, you know, I wouldn't trust her at all unless she could corroborate information. Obviously her agenda is to either get a pardon from President Trump or to have her sentence, have some years taken off. She's never told the truth. She went through about a half a dozen civil lawsuits. She lost a defamation case against the chief accuser, Virginia Giuffre, who sadly passed on this past April. She has no credibility as far as I'm concerned. However, there had been much speculation that she was holding on to materials, possibly videotapes, possibly documents. Is this something that she is now going to turn over to the authorities? We don't know. But certainly everything she says has to be corroborated with evidence because, you know, I think she's a liar, she's a predator, and she just abused and groomed these, these victims for so many years.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

If the Epstein files were to come out, where would you go first? What are the first things you'd try to look at?

[Ghislaine Maxwell's Lawyer]

Well, the hard evidence, Lawrence. Certainly, you know, there were at least on the evidence list, we know of 40 computers, we know of 70 CDs. We know of the fact that the authorities had put Maxwell under some type of phone wiretap. So let's look at that very hard evidence in black and white and see what's there. Let's go down that financial trail. As you mentioned, Senator Wyden, Jeffrey Epstein moved money through Russian banks. But he had fixers, he had international fixers to send him girls to his island in the Virgin Islands. Let's go after those men. If there's, you know, documented information. Let's get those Virgin island records. The attorney general there, Denise George, did a great job in terms of her initial investigation, but it needs to be expanded and it needs the help of the FBI. And then, of course, let's look at the autopsy report of Jeffrey Epstein's death. We've never seen that. We've never seen the report in terms of, of the investigation into his death. Was there DNA on the bed sheet that he used? These are all things that we have to, you know, look into.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Barry Levine, I'm going to need you back here when I get back from vacation. Everyone should read his op ed piece of the New York Times about the questions he has in the Epstein case. Barry Levine, thank you very much for joining us tonight.

[Ghislaine Maxwell's Lawyer]

Thank you, Lawrence.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

We'll be right back. That is tonight's last word. I'm going to take one week of vacation next week. Then I will be right back here at this desk saying hi to Rachel when I get back.

[Advertiser]

Did you know that parents rank financial literacy as the number one most difficult life skill to teach? Meet Greenlight, the debit card and money app for families. With Greenlight, you can set up chores, automate allowance and keep an eye on your kids spending with real time notifications. Kids learn to earn, save and spend wisely. And parents can rest easy knowing their kids are learning about money with guardrails in place. Sign up for Greenlight [e-mail] podcast.