Lawrence: You can be guilty of using child pornography and Trump will pardon you for Jan. 6

Summary

Summary of "Lawrence: You Can Be Guilty of Using Child Pornography and Trump Will Pardon You for Jan. 6"

Podcast: The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell
Host: Lawrence O'Donnell, MSNBC
Release Date: January 23, 2025

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell, host Lawrence O'Donnell delves deep into the controversial actions of former President Donald Trump, specifically focusing on his unprecedented pardons related to the January 6th Capitol riot and cases involving child pornography. Joined by esteemed guests Rachel Maddow, Ryan Reilly, Senator Adam Schiff, and Senator Mark Kelly, the discussion unpacks the implications of Trump's pardon decisions and their effects on American democracy and the justice system.

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Trump’s Pardons: An Unprecedented Move

Lawrence O'Donnell opens the discussion by highlighting the gravity of Trump's pardoning actions, pointing out that Trump became the first president to pardon individuals convicted of using child pornography and to pardon the world's largest drug dealer, Ross Ulbricht.

[Release Time: 01:05] Lawrence O'Donnell: "Donald Trump did pardon the biggest worldwide drug dealer in history... No president's ever done that."

The conversation underscores the severity and uniqueness of these pardons, emphasizing that such actions deviate significantly from historical presidential pardoning practices.

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The January 6th Pardons: Details and Implications

Rachel Maddow provides a detailed account of the individuals pardoned by Trump in relation to the January 6th Capitol riot. She enumerates the violent crimes committed by these individuals, including assaulting police officers with various weapons and planning seditious conspiracies.

[Release Time: 15:00] Rachel Maddow: "Donald Trump pardoned Stephen Cappuccio, convicted of six felonies, including assaulting a police officer... and many others who committed violent crimes during the Capitol attack."

Senator Adam Schiff and Senator Mark Kelly join the discussion, expressing deep concern over the precedent set by these pardons. They argue that Trump's actions undermine the rule of law and set a dangerous standard for future administrations.

[Release Time: 16:39] Senator Adam Schiff: "Donald Trump won't hold child pornography against you if you are trying to overthrow the election for him on January 6th. That's the Trump standard."

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Impact on the Justice System and Democratic Institutions

Ryan Reilly, NBC News Justice Reporter and author of Sedition Hunters: How January 6 Broke the Justice System, discusses the broader implications of these pardons on the American justice system. He points out that the pardons not only absolve individuals of their crimes but also hinder ongoing legal proceedings and accountability.

[Release Time: 20:22] Ryan Reilly: "There are people who will never be held accountable in any way whatsoever for their crimes they committed on January 6th."

Reilly emphasizes that these pardons erode public trust in the justice system and embolden future attempts to circumvent legal consequences for political gains.

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Personal Accounts and Abuse Allegations

The episode also sheds light on personal allegations against political figures, focusing on Pete Hegseth, Trump's nominee for Secretary of Defense. Rachel Maddow presents affidavits from Hegseth’s family members accusing him of emotional and psychological abuse, though not physical. Senator Mark Kelly addresses these allegations, criticizing Hegseth's qualifications and suitability for the role.

[Release Time: 28:51] Rachel Maddow: "Pete Hegseth's mother... says he is an abuser of women... Danielle Hegseth concludes her affidavit by saying... he is unfit to serve as Secretary of Defense."

Senator Mark Kelly responds by questioning Hegseth's management and leadership experience, highlighting the unsuitability of his nomination in light of the abuse allegations.

[Release Time: 35:09] Senator Mark Kelly: "He doesn't have the management experience. He doesn't have the leadership experience. He has no experience in defense acquisition."

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The Trump Standard: Lowered Norms in Politics and Media

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around what Lawrence O'Donnell refers to as the "Trump standard"—a lowered bar for ethical and legal standards in politics and media. The guests express concern that Trump's actions, particularly his pardons and handling of the press, have set a detrimental precedent.

[Release Time: 07:00] Lawrence O'Donnell: "That's the Trump standard. Washington's gonna be operating on the Trump standard now."

Norm Ornstein, Congressional Historian, and John Harwood, Distinguished Fellow at Duke University, discuss how this standard affects the functionality of democratic institutions and the integrity of public discourse.

[Release Time: 42:53] Adam Schiff: "Our hope to avoid a vicious, violent autocracy is the guardrails."

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Conclusion: The Road Ahead for American Democracy

As the episode concludes, the guests reflect on the long-term consequences of Trump's pardons and the establishment of the "Trump standard." They caution against complacency, urging vigilance to safeguard democratic institutions and uphold the rule of law.

[Release Time: 46:53] Adam Schiff: "We are in a deep, deep hole. And I wish I could say that the enemy of the people, as Trump called them, would be stepping up to the plate. And I don't see it."

Lawrence O'Donnell wraps up the episode by reiterating the critical need for accountability and ethical leadership to preserve the foundational principles of American democracy.

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Notable Quotes

• Lawrence O'Donnell [01:05]: "Donald Trump did pardon the biggest worldwide drug dealer in history... No president's ever done that."

• Rachel Maddow [15:00]: "Donald Trump pardoned Stephen Cappuccio, convicted of six felonies, including assaulting a police officer... and many others who committed violent crimes during the Capitol attack."

• Senator Adam Schiff [16:39]: "Donald Trump won't hold child pornography against you if you are trying to overthrow the election for him on January 6th. That's the Trump standard."

• Ryan Reilly [20:22]: "There are people who will never be held accountable in any way whatsoever for their crimes they committed on January 6th."

• Senator Mark Kelly [35:09]: "He doesn't have the management experience. He doesn't have the leadership experience. He has no experience in defense acquisition."

• Lawrence O'Donnell [07:00]: "That's the Trump standard. Washington's gonna be operating on the Trump standard now."

• Adam Schiff [42:53]: "Our hope to avoid a vicious, violent autocracy is the guardrails."

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Final Thoughts

This episode of The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell serves as a thorough examination of the troubling precedents set by Donald Trump's pardon decisions. Through incisive analysis and expert commentary, the podcast sheds light on the erosion of accountability and the potential shift towards authoritarian norms within American politics. Listeners are left with a profound understanding of the stakes involved in maintaining democratic integrity in the face of such unprecedented actions.

Transcript

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[Lawrence O'Donnell]

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[Mel Robbins]

Now it's time for the Last word with Lawrence O'Donnell. Good evening, Lawrence.

[Rachel Maddow]

You can find me at Blue Sky 2. Thanks to Rachel encouraging me to get over there. Rachel, thank you so much for that interview with the bishop. So many people I know were so eager to hear more from her after seeing what she did in that sermon, which was just an unimpeachable approach to a simple subject that has been mentioned in churches many times. That's a very simple thing to bring up.

[Mel Robbins]

Yeah. And for her to say only true things, for her to speak in the gentle and generous and respectful way that she did, and for it to cause the president to effectively short circuit and insult her and demand an apology and to talk about the church service not being exciting and like as Chris put it earlier tonight, giving it a one star review, I mean, the contrast between the dignity and humility of her remarks and him just being incapable of hearing anybody speaking to him in those kinds of terms was a real character call. And I was happy to hear her elaborate on her thoughts on it and what's happened since and the fact that she gets nervous speaking from the pulpit. It was really interesting.

[Rachel Maddow]

Yeah. And, you know, having watched it tonight, I think when I was watching it in your program might have been the third or fourth time I saw it. So this time I actually focused on someone other than Donald Trump. And what I noticed was the only person in those first two rows who actually seemed to know how to even listen to that was Vice President Vance's wife, the Vice President Vance, he was turning to try to chat with her, rolling his eyes. And she refused to do it. She refused. She stayed right on the bishop and all those Trumps, those Trump kids looking at her and Donald Trump's wife looking at the bishop. You could read very clearly what they were feeling. Yeah.

[Mel Robbins]

And I mean, I think it's plain that she wasn't trying to embarrass anybody. She wasn't trying to have some sort of performative confrontation. She was trying to speak earnestly about a true thing to try to say, like I'd like to try to open your heart to a merciful, more merciful and respectful approach here. And that's not something you do to upset people. It's not something that you do to show people up. If you feel upset and showed up by that, spend some time with your own heart thinking about why. But I just think she, I think, as you say, she behaved unimpeachably. I regret and feel terrible about the reaction that she's had, the invective she's had to deal with. But I feel like that's. She's demonstrating a kind of leadership that we need right now.

[Rachel Maddow]

Yes. And of course, that invective she's getting is the Trump standard. That's the standard of behavior he has set for himself and his followers.

[Mel Robbins]

Yeah. Thanks, Lawrence.

[Rachel Maddow]

Thank you, Rachel. Thank you. Well, day one, promises broken. Donald Trump did not end the war in Ukraine on day one. And Donald Trump did not do a mass roundup of people in this country for deportation on day one. But on day one, Donald Trump did pardon a child pornographer. No president's ever done that. Donald Trump pardoned the biggest worldwide drug dealer in history. Two pardons that no other president in history would ever consider. And tonight, and tonight, and tonight, Donald Trump said moments ago on Fox that parents, that a child leaves home as a boy and comes back two days later as a girl, a parent doesn't want to see that. And there are states where that can happen. Now, if Joe Biden or any other president had ever said something as insanely false as that, as impossible as that, you can imagine the screaming outrage that you would get from the White House press corps. And you can right now imagine that there won't be any from this White House press corps about that statement, that a child leaves home as a boy and comes back two days later as a girl. And there are states where that can happen. That is like saying a child leaves home as a Boy and comes back two years later, two days later as a horse. It cannot happen. There is a demented pathological liar in the White House talking like that. And the White House press corps will accept that and not scream about them as they scream so constantly during the last presidency. And there will probably be no questions of Donald Trump. There haven't been any so far about him pardoning someone who used child pornography. The child pornography user is also a Donald Trump fan who was at the Capitol on January 6th attacking police officers. Federal prosecutors said Andrew Kyle Grigsby was the tip of the spear on the west front of the Capitol. When he wasn't busy committing crimes for Donald Trump, he was busy with his child pornography in Kentucky, where he has been imprisoned on state charges of possession of child pornography. That's who Donald Trump pardoned. The only president in history to pardon a known user of child pornography convicted for using child pornography. And Donald Trump pardoned him. And the day after Donald Trump did that, he pardoned the world's biggest drug dealer ever, who a federal judge believed was arranging assassinations of his business associates. That's the Trump standard. That's the Trump standard for people deserving pardons, the lowest and most perverse standard ever used by a president. For any pardon. You can be convicted of using child pornography and Donald Trump will pardon you for whatever you did for him. That's the rule. Whatever you did for him, especially if you did it on January 6th. Donald Trump won't hold child pornography against you if you are trying to overthrow the election for him on January 6th. That's the Trump standard. Washington's gonna be operating on the Trump standard now. And no president in history has lowered the standard for federal hiring the way Donald Trump has. It seems clear that Donald Trump is making a conscious choice to lower the standard in all of the instances where he has done so, because this is really important. He knows how to make a cabinet. Ch. That actually does meet the standard. Former Senator Marco Rubio is now Secretary of State Marco Rubio after a unanimous vote to confirm him in the United States Senate on Monday. Unanimous. Marco Rubio was a reasonable Republican choice for Secretary of State. At this stage of Marco Rubio's career, Donald Trump knows how to do that and he knows how to do the opposite by offering Pete Hegseth for Secretary of defense after Pete Hegseth's mother said in writing that he is an abuser of women. And yesterday we learned Pete Hegseth's former sister in law put it in writing in an under oath affidavit to the Senate Armed Services Committee describing Pete Hegseth's abuse of his second wife. And the Hegseth defense is I never hit her. The Hegseth defense is it wasn't physical abuse. The women in Hegseth's family did not accuse him of physical abuse. He doesn't have to deny that because he's never been accused of that. And so his denial of physical abuse is irrelevant to what the women in his family have accused him of publicly. We'll cover that for you. The passages of that affidavit later in this hour, along with Pete Hegseth's mother's very specific charges of abuse against her son that she put in writing, which do not include physical abuse. That's an important distinction. As usual, Donald Trump lowered the standard for White House press secretary here's the White House press secretary not doing her job. When is your first press briefing to be announced? By this time in the Biden administration, White House press Secretary Jen Psaki completed three press briefings, one every day. The first Trump White House went 300 days without a press briefing. And so we are counting the days again. And the people who care the least about that are apparently the members of the White House press corps because they have their own Trump standard. The only thing they apparently care about is Donald Trump talking to them, not telling them the truth, just talking to them. And they very clearly just don't care about Donald Trump lying to them. The Columbia Journalism Review reports on the feelings of some, not all, some in the White House press corps about the return of the president, who lies to them in almost every answer and whose press secretary does not even bother to enter the briefing room, despite his sometimes strident and sometimes even violent rhetoric about the press. He loves talking to us, the print reporter said. And his team, they like talking to us, and they know that they're going to have a huge audience. I actually think the team that's coming in is not going to be as horrific as people might imagine, the veteran White House reporter said. That's the White House press corps Trump standard, not as horrific, and they're fine with that. The Columbia Journalism Review reports incoming press secretary Caroline Levitt and communications director Stephen Chung are seen by White House reporters as full maga, but they're also professionals, as the veteran reporter put it. Of course, that's impossible. Full MAGA means full lying all the time about everything. That is not professional press communication from the White House. But it is the Trump standard, the lowered Trump standard, that most members of the White House Press corps willingly accept a lie is not an answer, and most of the White House press corps do not know that or care about it. Most of the White House press corps are eager to be lied to by the White House press secretary, or preferably Donald Trump directly because most of the White House press corps have instantly adjusted to the Trump standard, the lowest standard ever established by a White House in all things from hiring to truth telling. Last night on the Daily show, intrepid correspondent Jordan Klepper showed in interviews of Trump supporters in Washington on Inauguration Day that one of the reasons they supported pardons for all of the January 6th convicted criminals is that they did not know what happened at the Capitol on January 6th.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

This guy's shooting a gun outside the Capitol.

[Adam Schiff]

Should he be pardoned?

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

I don't think he should have shot a gun. That's just my opinion.

[Mel Robbins]

I know that's a little different situation.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Situation there. Call me old fashioned. This guy with a gun, shooting a gun outside the Capitol, most definitely he should not be pardoned.

[Mark Kelly]

There are 2.1 million people there.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

They didn't all storm the Capitol. None of them were armed.

[Rachel Maddow]

Well, some were armed.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Who? This guy, this guy with a gun outside the Capitol. Should he be pardoned? Did he shoot the gun?

[Rachel Maddow]

Is that a real gun or is.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

That a fake gun? He shot the gun up in the air.

[Ryan Reilly]

Yes, yes.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

He should be pardons because.

[Rachel Maddow]

Yeah, I think he should be pardoned. Why?

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Because I don't think he should be. I don't think he was. I think he should be pardoned. Yeah, absolutely. What about this guy spraying a bear spray at the police officer? Self defense.

[Adam Schiff]

So pardon.

[Mark Kelly]

Yeah.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

That's a tough one. Was that from the same day? Yeah, that's January, January 6th. The most photographed crime in human history. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, you can show me 8 million more. I'm pro pardon.

[Rachel Maddow]

Well, no.

[Mark Kelly]

Where Was this at January 6th?

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Yeah. You've not seen this image?

[Mark Kelly]

No, I have not seen that.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

You see any of these images?

[Mark Kelly]

Some of them, but not these.

[Adam Schiff]

Really?

[Mark Kelly]

Maybe the ones. Maybe the media that I'm following is not. It's not showing these.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

What? What?

[Mark Kelly]

It could be.

[Adam Schiff]

It could be. What media do you follow?

[Mark Kelly]

All conservative.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Did you watch the January 6th hearings?

[Rachel Maddow]

No, I didn't.

[Mark Kelly]

No.

[Rachel Maddow]

Of the nearly 1600 people Donald Trump pardoned, hundreds of them criminally attacked police officers violently with their fists and any form of weapon they could get their hands on, including tasers, chemical spray, bear spray, metal barricades, and a fire extinguisher. 22% of the attackers had criminal records for other crimes. Even Rupert Murdoch's Wall Street Journal editorial board, normally supportive of Donald Trump, objected to the his pardoning of what the Journal called cop beaters. And yesterday, Donald Trump pardoned Ross Ulbricht, the creator of a billion dollar billion dark web marketplace called Silk Road, which one FBI agent described as the Amazon of the criminal drug trade. The website used cryptocurrency, which was enough to make this worldwide drug dealer a hero of the cryptocurrency cult that Donald Trump is now a leader of. After first opposing cryptocurrency, Ross Ulbricht's website promised users encryption and anonymity to buy and sell anything and everything, including heroin. In 2015, a federal criminal jury found Ross Ulbricht guilty of all seven counts against him, including conspiring to distribute narcotics and conspiring to commit money laundering and what's known as a kingpin charge, crimes that earned him multiple life sentences. During his sentencing, a federal judge also found there was, quote, ample and unambiguous evidence that Russ Ulbricht commissioned murder for hire, paying for hits on at least five people who threatened his criminal empire. That man was in prison during Donald Trump's first term. And Donald Trump did not pardon the world's biggest drug dealer at that time, did not pardon him, but pardoned him on the second day of Donald Trump's second term. What changed Donald Trump's interest in cryptocurrency? Today, Democratic Congressman Jim McGovern of Massachusetts described the Trump pardons of the January 6th mob. This way.

[Mark Kelly]

Here are some of the convicted felons that Trump set free on Monday. Stephen Cappuccio, convicted of six felonies, including assaulting a police officer, ripped off Metro police officer Daniel Hodges gas mask. And at one point during the assault, he said, and I quote, how do you like me now, mother Effer. Pardoned by Donald Trump. David Dempsey, sentenced to 20 years. He stomped on police officers heads, struck an officer in the head with a metal crutch and attacked police with pepper spray and broken pieces of furniture. He also attacked a fellow rioter who was trying to disarm him. And he has a demonstrated history of political violence. Pardoned by Donald Trump. Enrique Tarrio, sentenced to 22 years. Former national leader of the Proud Boys, a domestic terrorist far right militia. He was found guilty of seditious conspiracy, helped plan the January 6th attack and made sure it was violent. Pardoned by Donald Trump. Guy Reffitt, sentenced to seven years and three months. He brought a gun, zip ties, body armor and a helmet to the Capitol, presumably to try to take hostages in an attempt to keep Trump in office after he lost. Pardoned by Donald Trump. Daniel Joseph DJ Rodriguez, sentenced to over 12 years, he repeatedly tased Officer Mike Fanon, shocking him in the neck multiple times and causing him to lose consciousness and have a heart attack. He was pardoned by Donald Trump. Patrick Mulcahy III, sentenced to 90 months. He assaulted police, beat their faces and bodies with riot shields and batons that he stole for them. Pardoned by Donald Trump. Peter Francis Steger, sentenced to four years and four months. He pled guilty to assaulting an officer with a deadly weapon. On video declaring every single one of those Capitol law enforcement officers, death is the remedy. Those are his words. That is the only remedy they get. Pardoned by Donald Trump. Julian Cater, sentenced to six years, attacked Officer Brian Sicknick with pepper spray. Officer Sicknick died the next day after suffering two strokes. Edward Jake Lang was on trial for 11 charges, including swinging a baseball bat at officers. In addition to his January 6th charges, he began organizing a nationwide network of armed militias in all 50 states. Pardoned by Donald Trump. Mr. Speaker, criminals pardoned were not tourists. They were not peaceful. They were violent criminals. And here's just one example. Daniel Ball's case was dismissed today and he was released from jail. Why was he in jail? He was being held in pretrial detention because of what a judge described as, quote, some of the most violent, violent and serious offenses of any of the charges being brought against participants in the January 6th events. End quote. That includes hurling an explosive device into the Lower West Terrace tunnel of the Capitol, the scene of some of the most egregious violence against police that day. Some officers suffered from hearing loss for months. But get this, Mr. Speaker, Mr. Ball has already been arrested again on federal gun charges and he was already a two time convicted felon for, and I quote, domestic violence, battery by strangulation and resisting law enforcement with violence. Yeah, already arrested again, this is who the president pardoned. This is why my Republican friends are silent, because this is indefensible.

[Rachel Maddow]

Leading off our discussion tonight is Ryan Reilly, justice reporter for NBC News. He's the author of the important book sedition hunters How January 6 broke the justice System. And Riley and Ryan, as the congressman was just saying, there are some of these cases that were still proceeding. They hadn't gone to trial yet and they have had to be dismissed. But these federal, some of these federal judges are saying they're not dismissing them the way Donald Trump wants them to be dismissed. There's been a dismissal, as they say, without prejudice, at least in one of them, that allows the possibility of these prosecutions recurring at some point in the future.

[Jordan Klepper]

Yeah, we've had three judges thus far register. I think they're just pleasure and sort of state for history, the facts of these cases, because the facts and the evidence are just completely overwhelming in so many of these cases. I would venture to say almost all of these cases, there are obviously some complicated cases involving seditious conspiracy where there are important questions of the law, but the evidence itself, in terms of especially these assaults, is just so overwhelming that, no, I don't think any reasonable person looking at it logically and looking at it honestly, could possibly say that any of these people were not guilty of the crimes that they were charged with in those cases where the Justice Department was able to secure those convictions. And so, you know, you have a number of. You have a handful of these defendants who have not yet been released. But, you know, the thing I keep going back to is that there's just. There's people who will never be held accountable in any way whatsoever for their crimes they committed. On January 6th. The online sleuths, the sedition hunters, have identified north of 200 additional people who were never arrested by the FBI. The FBI had those names in their possession. But now the FBI cannot move forward. The Justice Department cannot move forward. Federal prosecutors cannot move forward and vindicate those victims who were assaulted viciously that day, those law enforcement officers who went into court and told their stories when they had the opportunity to. But there's a lot of their colleagues who are never going to have that opportunity because these cases are no longer allowed to be moving forward. So I think we could continue to see some pushback from some of the judges here. But obviously, under the pardon power, there's not much they can do, you know, decline to dismiss these cases with prejudice. As Ed Martin, the January 6th supporter of defendants who is now the interim US Attorney for the District of Columbia, has advocated for. He wanted them dismissed with prejudice. But that's not what some of these judges are willing to go along with and have talked about how you cannot erase. In one case, Judge Chutkan, who oversaw Trump's case, talked about how you cannot erase the feces that was there that day. Rather, you cannot just dismiss and get rid of the terror that happened that day. Those are all factual evidence as laid out in cases before her, cases that were heard in federal court. So those are just not things that you can erase. I think, as much as obviously, you see this attempt to be done. And you can erase part of it, right? You can erase the partial record on the Justice Department website, for example, or on the FBI's website. But these cases will live on, I think on the Internet more broadly and then in some of the databases that have been collected in a coverage that has been done over these past four years as well as on the docket.

[Rachel Maddow]

Ryan Reilly, thank you so much for your reporting that has given us the details of these cases and these defendants. And thank you so much for joining us tonight.

[Jordan Klepper]

Thanks for having me.

[Rachel Maddow]

Joining our discussion now is Democratic Senator Adam Schiff of California. He's a member of the Senate Judiciary Committee. And Senator, I want to give you a chance to respond to something Donald Trump just said about you on FOX in the last hour. He said that you asked President Biden for a partner.

[Ryan Reilly]

Well, that's absolutely false. In fact, I told administration they should not give these pardons. But I watched that interview, Lawrence. I heard the president speak. Three lies in quick succession within a minute. Three lies a minute. And I've reached the conclusion clearly, Lawrence, he's slowing down.

[Rachel Maddow]

Yes. And he said things there that if this were the Biden presidency, people would be, you know, there'd be massive headlines tomorrow about how loss of cognitive ability and all that which we will not see in any headlines tomorrow. Another thing he said was that it would have been too cumbersome, that was his word, cumbersome, to study every one of the 1600 pardon cases where he issued all those pardons. So of course, he would have no idea that one of them was engaged in child pornography and other such things in these records. Just too cumbersome for a president to look at every case that he was pardoning.

[Ryan Reilly]

You know, I asked Pam Bondi about this during her confirmation hearing. Would she be going through these cases? How could she possibly be going through these cases? One by one she was indignant. Oh, of course she was going to go through these. Of course she was going to give each of them individual attention. Turned out to be utter nonsense. And you know, look there, I think three really significant takeaways from what just happened in the last 24 to 48 hours. The first is what you've been emphasizing, which is these people he just pardoned were beating police officers within an inch of their life. They were bear spraying them. They were gouging them, were hitting with them with baseball bats and hockey sticks. These are the people Donald Trump just pardoned. So one thing is abundantly clear. He doesn't give a rat's ass about law enforcement. That much is clear. But it's also really significant that these crimes, as serious as they are of attacking law enforcement, were in the service of an even larger crime. And that was the crime of trying to interfere with the transfer of power after an election. So these were in the service of his holding onto power after losing the election. That itself is a major crime against our democracy, against our Constitution, against our country. But then finally, in giving these violent offenders these pardons, he is essentially telling people who would commit violence on his behalf that he has their back, that he will pardon them if they commit violence in the service of Donald Trump. And you would be hard pressed to find a country that has gone from a democracy to a dictatorship without finding this step of essentially pardoning people who commit violence on behalf of the would be dictator. It doesn't mean that we're going to become a dictatorship, but it does mean that we have taken one tragic step in that direction.

[Rachel Maddow]

Senator Adam Schiff, thank you very much for joining us today.

[Ryan Reilly]

Thank you.

[Rachel Maddow]

Coming up, Senator Mark Kelly will join us with his reaction to the latest accusations against Pete Hegseth for being abusive to his second wife in an under oath affidavit submitted to the Senate Armed Services Committee. Senator Kelly's a member of that committee. He'll join us next.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

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[Rachel Maddow]

Now. There are two women from Pete Hegseth's family, his mother and his former sister in law, who say that he was abusive to women, especially his second wife. Danielle Hegseth, the former wife of Pete Hegseth's brother, has put her accusations against Donald Trump's choice for defense secretary in writing in a sworn affidavit under oath submitted to the Senate Armed Services Committee. All 13 Democrats on the committee have now read that under oath affidavit. Several Republican senators have also read it. That affidavit echoes and underlines what Pete Hegseth's mother said directly to him in an email at the time. Pete Hegseth's mother and his former sister in law do not accuse him of physical abuse. They never do. Pete Hegseth's second wife issued a statement in response to Danielle Hegseth's new affidavit saying that she never suffered physical abuse from Pete Hegseth. And that is consistent with Pete Hegseth's mother's description of the abuse and Danielle Hegseth's description of the abuse in her under oath affidavit where she does not allege physical abuse. During Pete Hegseth's second marriage, he had an affair and impregnated a woman at his workplace and the woman he is now married to during his second marriage, his mother wrote him this email, which became public at the end of November. It says, son, I have tried to keep quiet about your character and behavior, but after listening to the way you made Samantha feel today, I cannot stay silent. Then, as a woman and your mother, I feel I must speak out. You are an abuser of women and that is the ugly truth. And I have no respect for any man that belittles, lies, cheats, sleeps around and uses women for his own power and ego. You are that man and have been for years. And as your mother, it pains me and embarrasses me to say that. But it is the sad, sad truth. Your abuse over the years to women, dishonesty, sleeping around, betrayal, debasing, belittling needs to be called out. It's time for someone, I wish it was a strong man to stand up to your abusive behavior and call it out, especially against women. We still love you, but we are broken by your behavior and lack of character. I don't want to write emails like this and never thought I would. If it damages our relationship further, then so be it. But at least I have said my piece. I don't want an answ. I don't want to debate with you. You twist and abuse everything I say anyway. But on behalf of all the women, and I know it's many you have abused in some way, I say get some help and take an honest look at yourself. In December, Pete Hegseth's mother went on Fox to support her son's nomination for Secretary of Defense, saying, I wrote that in haste. I wrote that in deep emotions. My husband told me I should think through things a little bit more, but Pete and I are both very passionate people and I wrote that out of love. And about two hours later I retracted it with an apology. In her appearance on Fox, Pete Hegseth's mother did not retract any specific accusations in her email in which she described his abuse of women as dishonesty, sleeping around, betrayal, debasing and belittling. In the affidavit submitted to the Senate, signed as the law puts it under the pains and penalties of perjury, meaning if anything, Danielle Hegseth's affidavit in it is untrue. She could be charged with perjury. Danielle Hegseth said, I believe Hegseth has an alcohol abuse problem and was abusive to his ex wife Samantha, as I understand those terms as a lay person. Pete Hegseth's mother's email completely supports and agrees with that position. The affidavit goes on to say, Samantha told me that she once hid in her closet from Hegseth because she feared for her personal safety. This happened in their house sometime during the years between 2014 and 2016. I believe what Samantha told me because what she told me is consistent with what I personally observed of Hegseth's erratic and aggressive behavior over many years. I was aware that Samantha had a plan to deploy if she felt she needed to get away from Hegseth. Samantha told me and another person close to her about this plan, which involved Samantha texting me a safe word code word that meant I should call the other person so that person could fly out to Minnesota to help her. Samantha did text me this code word sometime in 2015 2016. I was myself a witness to and even a victim of emotional abuse by Hegseth. He drunkenly yelled in my face one night in 2009. Danielle Hegseth concludes her affidavit by saying, I believe Hegseth to be an erratic, volatile person with an alcohol abuse problem. I do not believe he is trustworthy or of good character. It is my opinion he is unfit to serve as Secretary of Defense. Pete Hegseth was accused by an unnamed woman in Monterey, California, of sexually assaulting her in 2017. In a police interview, Pete Hegseth denied the sexual assault, but said he had consensual sex with that woman while he was married to his second wife. Pete Hegseth paid that woman an undisclosed amount of money to settle that case. Joining us now is Democratic Senator Mark Kelly of Arizona. He's a member of the Senate Armed Services Committee. Senator Kelly, what I've been noticing in the defense of Pete Hegseth in response to this affidavit is that senators are getting it wrong. Joni Ernst, Senator Joni Ernst said the ex wife has denied the allegations. She has sworn that multiple times. So I think we need to take her out of word. But the ex wife never said there was physical abuse. And your Republican colleagues seem to be leaning on the idea that there was no physical abuse, therefore there was no abuse. But Hegseth's mother and his former sister in law say the abuse was not physical. It was all those other things that the mother listed.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Yeah, Lawrence, that's pretty clear. It was clear to me when we had his confirmation hearing about 10 days ago or so. And Lawrence, there's no job in the federal government that's as serious as being the secretary of defense. I mean, this is the guy that has to wake the president up in the middle of the night and make very quick decisions when something really bad is going on, when our service members are in harm's way. And I gave him the opportunity to refute very specific cases of alcohol abuse, especially when he was running a veterans organization. And asked him just very simply, is this true or false? And he, he refused to answer the question. He just said these were anonymous smears. Well, it's now public, Lawrence, that they're no longer anonymous. I mean, these are individuals who signed an affidavit. I don't know if you saw just tonight, the second wife, Samantha, has come out and said that he. And this is a quote, this is to the FBI, which you cannot lie to, that he drinks more often than he doesn't. That is a serious problem. These are not anonymous smears. And he is, he seems to be uniquely unqualified for this position.

[Rachel Maddow]

Senator, you've already voted against him in committee, and then the vote will come on the Senate floor. What about leaving all of this, all of these personal issues aside, which would be prohibitive for any other nominee for anywhere outside of the Trump standard, which is so very low? What about his qualifications as secretary of defense and doing that, actually doing the job?

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Yeah, that's another problem. And if I would have had time, if we had a second round of questions, I would have gotten to that. But he does not have the management experience. He doesn't have the leadership experience. He has no experience in defense acquisition. He has some time in the military. That's not a requirement for the job. He doesn't have any experience with defense policy, either creating or implementing policy. I don't expect any candidate for this job to be able to check every single box. But the problem with Mr. Hegseth is he doesn't seem to check any of the boxes. And that on top of all these personal issues, it's such a big concern. I can't stress how serious this is. I mean, this job is like no other job in the country. And to put him in this position means that our service members, our citizens, your family, everybody in our country would be less safe.

[Rachel Maddow]

Senator Mark Kelly, thank you very much for joining our discussion tonight.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Thank you, Lawrence.

[Rachel Maddow]

Thank you. And coming up, the Trump standard for Trump cabinet nominees is now so low that one of them refused to commit to obeying the law in his Senate confirmation hearing. That's next. Hey, friends, Ted Danson here, and I want to let you know about my new podcast. It's called where everybody knows your name with me, Ted Danson, and Woody Harrelson. Sometimes doing this podcast is a chance.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

For me and my good bud Woody.

[Rachel Maddow]

To reconnect after cheers wrapped 30 years ago. Plus, we're introducing each other to the friends we've met since, like Jane Fonda, Conan O'Brien, Eric Andre, Mary Steenburgen, and Flea from the Red Hot Chili Peppers. And trust me, it's always a great hang when Woody's there, so why wait? Listen to where everybody knows your name. Wherever you get your podcasts Foreign it's.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

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[Rachel Maddow]

Only the lowered Trump hiring standard would produce a nominee for director of the Office of Management and Budget who refuses to say that he will obey the law. Will you comply with the Empowerment Control Act?

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Senator?

[Adam Schiff]

The president ran against the impoundment control act.

[Rachel Maddow]

Mr. Vogt, I know what the president did. He wants to change lots of things. He can submit legislation to do that. But you are going to be the head of omb, and here today at this hearing, you're refusing to commit to comply with the Impoundment Control Act. Is that right? Are you refusing to commit to complying?

[Adam Schiff]

Senator, the administration has to go through a policy process to understand the legal parameters for operating in the ica.

[Rachel Maddow]

Okay, I'm going to reclaim my time. I'm sorry. I was just. It. It seems that complying with the current law, even if you disagree with it, would result in a clear answer. Yes, I will comply with the current law. Joining us now is congressional historian Norm Ornstein. He's an emeritus scholar at the American Enterprise Institute, and journalist John Harwood, now a distinguished fellow at Duke University's DeWitt Wallace center for Media and Democracy. And, John, don't want to get too complicated for the audience, but this is kind of a simple issue and a crucial issue, which is will you actually execute the laws that Congress passes, especially when they appropriate money? The theory of the Trump people is, yeah, Congress can appropriate the money, but we don't have to actually spend it.

[H]

Well, a couple of things, Lawrence. First of all, Russ Vote is an ideologically extreme aid to Donald Trump. He's like Stephen Miller in that regard. He's a Christian nationalist who is possessed of the idea that Christians are under assault by the rest of the country. But in this way, he reflects what his boss believes. Donald Trump does not consider himself bound by the rule of law. He considers himself bound by what he can get away with, either by physical force, as he tried on January 6th. And of course, he's pardoned all those people, or political force. And he and his team are exercising political force to make Republican senators go along. And there's every indication that they will go along. And then the question is, will the court stop them? And we don't know the answer to that. Certainly, he's Got a very favorable Supreme Court. And anything that gets kicked up there, anybody's guess.

[Rachel Maddow]

Norm, there are members of Congress who are more fearful of this nominee than almost any other. Because of what they were talking about in that hearing today.

[Adam Schiff]

Exactly. So Lawrence, and John is right. This is a Christian nationalist extremist. But most people don't have any idea what power there is in the Office of Management and Budget. They not only can bludgeon other agencies into doing what they want, but he can write legislation. Remember, Russ Vaught was the Mastermind behind Project 2025. And using the impoundment power illegally, as is likely to happen here, is going to do violence to a whole set of proposals. And he will also use it to implement other policies, including, as he said today, support for ending all abortion, rape, incest, life of the mother don't count. We're talking about an extreme person. And in the panoply of nominees, he's gotten so much less attention than almost any of the others. It's frightening.

[Rachel Maddow]

Well, we're trying to give him some tonight, but you know what we're facing with so many of these nominees. We're gonna squeeze in a quick commercial break right here. We'll be right back with John Harwood and Norm Ornstein. Back with us, Norm Ornstein and John Harwood and the New Yorker's investigative journalist and author Patrick Redden. Keefe, brilliant journalist who's going to join us tomorrow night here, said this about covering the Trump White House. That's not something he's done. It's something he's observing as a journalist. And he says, if you're dealing with pathological liars, I don't know how good the access is. And John, it seems many in the White House press corps are very happy with the access they have in the Trump White House. How should they be covering this beat?

[H]

Patrick's point is exactly correct. Having conversations with somebody who's only lying to you has extremely limited value. And I hope my colleagues in the press court keep their eye on the ball. The ball is not how much time you personally get to converse with the president, how entertaining he is when you converse with him, how what kind of play your story gets, how much your face gets on television. The ball is, what is he actually doing? How does it affect American citizens? How does it affect the interests of the United States? And I think sometimes people get confused on priorities. And given the fact that Donald Trump almost never says anything that's true, I think the access, as Patrick indicated, has very, very limited value.

[Rachel Maddow]

Norm, how do you get the White House press corps to understand, or. I don't mean all of them, I mean many. There are some great people working there. But that a Donald Trump answer, a Donald Trump words after a question mark is not an answer. A lie is not an answer.

[Adam Schiff]

So John and you and a handful of others have pounded away at this for a long time. I don't hold out a lot of hope, Lawrence. Our hope to avoid a vicious, violent autocracy is the guardrails. We have Republicans who control the House and Senate. Forget about it. The Supreme Court Chief Justice John Roberts swore in the autocrat he created and the press corps is showing very little sign of help. Peter Alexander of NBC tried to push Trump on these outrageous pardons of violent criminals and insurrectionists. Trump screamed at him, shouted him down. Nobody stood up for him. Good reporters would have said, we're out of here. You can't do that to one of ours. Boy, did they go after Biden when he objected to something. We are in a deep, deep hole. And I wish I could say that the enemy of the people, as Trump called them, would be stepping up to the plate. And I don't see it.

[Rachel Maddow]

Norm Ornstein and John Harwood, thank you both very much for joining our discussion tonight.

[Adam Schiff]

Thank you, Laura.

[Rachel Maddow]

We'll be right back. That is tonight's last word.

[Mark Kelly]

Hey, this is Jeff Lewis from Radio Andy, live and uncensored. Catch me talking with my friends about my latest obsessions, relationship issues and bodily ailments. With that kind of drama that seems to follow me, you never know what's going to happen.

[Rachel Maddow]

You can listen to Jeff Lewis live.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

At home or anywhere you are.

[Rachel Maddow]

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