← The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell
The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell
Officials share video of Charlie Kirk shooting suspect escaping
00:46:20
Tonight on The Last Word: Utah officials and the FBI take no questions from the media. And a 9/11 survivor leaves finance to become a nurse. Ken Dilanian, Andrew Weissmann, Jim Cavanaugh, Jay Gray, and Jocelyn Brooks join Lawrence O’Donnell.
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Lawrence (News Anchor)
Nine minute press briefing at the of the investigation of the murder of Charlie Kirk in Utah. During our live coverage is justice MSNBC justice correspondent Ken Delaney and also with us, Andrew Weissman, former chief of the Criminal Division of the Eastern District of New York, former FBI general counsel and an MSNBC legal analyst. Jim Kavanaugh, an MSNBC law enforcement analyst and former ATF special agent in charge, will be joining us in a moment. I want to get Jim Kavanaugh's reaction to the investigative material that was just released. He has experience on the scene of such investigations. But Andrew Weissman, let me go first to you with your experience in the FBI and what we just listened to.
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Andrew Weissman
Well, in many ways it is the blueprint that was set in the Boston bombing case where you have this outreach to the public and the dissemination of information. It was striking to me that that was essentially the purpose of the press conference was to get that out there to the public so that anybody with information about what he looks like, his T shirt, his cap, his shoes, his backpack, all of that is something that they're looking for leads. And that obviously is something that the public can and should do. I did want to make a reference to something that people might not know about because there's been a lot of reporting about having found the gun. And I want to make sure people understand in this country it can be very, very difficult to trace a gun to a perpetrator, unlike a car where when you have a car, we can know from soup to nuts when it came off the lot and every single owner who had it. That is prohibited in this country. So you can have.
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Lawrence (News Anchor)
For guns it's prohibited.
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Andrew Weissman
Sorry. For guns it is prohibited. You can figure out when the gun was manufactured, but it is very hit and miss. If you can trace who has owned it. There are all sorts of loopholes. And so just having found the gun, it obviously can be useful. There can be information there, but it is not the case that there is a record in the same way that you would have for the vin, the vehicle identification number for a car, where you know exactly from person to person to person. So I just want to make sure people understand because of the laws in this country, this investigation or investigations like it don't have necessarily the tools that you might have in other countries to do that kind of tracing.
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Lawrence (News Anchor)
KENDALLADIAN we're continuing to run the video that was just released, which in effect was the entire purpose of this press briefing, was really just to release this video that they have been obviously been in their possession for quite a while. They were ready to do this apparently much earlier in the day today. Any indication of why this was delayed so long? Given, as Andrew says, they wanted to get this information out to the public. They've had it for quite a while. Public could have seen this many, many, many hours ago.
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Ken Delaney
That's right, Lawrence. Well, one reason was stated fairly explicitly by Utah officials hours ago, which is that they were waiting for Cash Patel, the FBI director, and Dan Bongino, his deputy, to land in the FBI jet so that they could attend this news conference where they didn't speak and they stood in the background. And there's also it's a bit perplexing because they did say earlier in the day that they were going to have a briefing at around 2:45pm and then they canceled that, citing rapid developments in the case, which led a lot of people to think that they were closing in on a suspect. But then you had Beau Mason, the head of the Utah Department of public safety, tell NBC's Morgan Chesky tonight that they have no idea he used those words, we have no idea the identity or the location of the suspect. Don't know whether the suspect is still in the area or has fled hundreds of miles away. And you know, that's not a failure. I mean, these are difficult investigations. Andrew cited the Boston Marathon bombing. You can also think about the Luigi Mangioni case. It took them five days to to arrest Mangione and only after help from the public after a McDonald's worker spotted him based on a photo. And that's exactly what they're hoping for in this case. Unfortunately, the photos of his face are not terribly clear. But it just does show that despite all the video evidence they've collected, all the presumably the cell phone location evidence, they've gotten and the tips they've gotten from the public, they really don't seem to have made much progress in figuring out who this person is and where they are. I mean, when law enforcement agents start just telling you the number of interviews they've done and how many agencies are responding, you know, they don't really have very much to say of substance. And I wanted to make one other point, Lawrence, which is the governor said very clearly, the governor of Utah, that Russia and China are spreading disinformation about this situation, which they often do, as Andrew well knows, in mass shootings and other kinds of instances of controversy and mass violence in the United States. The thing that the public needs to know about that is that this Justice Department and this FBI disbanded the Foreign Influence Task Force, whose job was to try to combat that maligned foreign influence and to investigate it and to counter it. They've done away with. The US Government is not doing that mission anymore, in part because Donald Trump didn't like the things they did about Russia, apparently. So it's really rather remarkable to see that governor of Utah lament the fact that our foreign adversaries are trying to exploit this situation while knowing, while the FBI director is standing behind him, knowing that they have done away with the task forces that whose job was to attack that problem.
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Lawrence (News Anchor)
Joined now by Jim Cavanaugh, former ATF Special Agent in charge. Jim, what did you learn in that press briefing?
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Commercial Announcer
Well, I think the only thing that they told us new was the head of the troopers, he showed us the video of the killer egressing the roof, dropping down. Looked like he had a rifle in a bag, you know, hustles across the green there and then starts walking across the road and then dumps the rifle in the wooded area. So we'd never seen that video. And then of course, the still pictures, Lawrence, the that are on the staircase, they're pretty good, but it seems to me I can't tell from what they said. Is that from a video? If you have a video of that, release the video. Because if you don't know who this guy is, you really need the help. Or if you have better still pictures of his face coming up that stairwell, get those out, too. At this point, it's not going to hurt you to release more video and more stills. Just get it all out there. I think one thing we've got to contend with and the commanders need to contend with, this guy may not be local to Orem, Utah. He could very well be a Traveler who Stalked Mr. Kirk, come from far another State or something to do this. He doesn't have to be a local person. So he could very well have traveled to commit his assassination. So as far as the press conference to be delayed, I've seen this happen so many times. It's always delayed. You know, the governor has to get there or the mayor or senator or somebody. And we've waited and stood for hours on end for, you know, political leaders to get there. Now they need to get there. I understand that they need to be speaking because they're the leadership. But sometimes that's just the reason that those pressers are delayed. And I think it's often better to just let the police have their press conference and put out their information, and then the political leadership can have theirs. But I'd say this was delayed because of probably the director of the FBI not being there and getting there, and he didn't speak. So I don't really know why they delayed it. They missed an opportunity, I think, to emphasize the $100,000 reward more, especially because they don't have a clue who this person is. And the person may be a traveler. So you want to reach the widest audience you can. You want to push that money out as best you can and get those photographs and videos out as much as you can. This is your opportunity. While the nation is paying attention, Lawrence.
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Lawrence (News Anchor)
Jim, the governor did say, quote, a lot of forensic evidence is being processed based on what we know now, the limited information we know now. What might that evidence be?
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Commercial Announcer
It's going to be fingerprints, DNA from the rifle from the towel that surrounded the rifle, probably sweat. DNA. It's going to be DNA from touch on the rifle. Fingerprints. There'll be large and heavy on fingerprints on the FBI lab on the cartridges that are inside the magazine of the.30 06, the unspent cartridges that the killer probably loaded, you know, before he even wiped it down. So that's a good place to find them. So there's a lot of evidence to be found there. There's also the trace of the gun, and that may still be ongoing with ATF agents trying to run that down. The gun could have been sold retail, Lawrence, years ago. And they're trying to run it down to a purchaser that can sometimes produce fruitful leads. There's gotta be other stuff out there. There's gotta be other cameras that were at the scene from citizens. I think they're missing some opportunities. Just when they showed that video, they should be saying, if this is you in the red car that's driving out right after the Shooting and you're driving out right here in this red vehicle. Call us. We want to talk to you. Maybe you can tell us something. I mean, there's so many people in that video that they can, you know, encourage to come in and tell us something. Now, maybe they've interviewed them already, but I'm just saying reach out, you know, enlist the support of all the citizens because they all want to be on your side. It's everybody and the police versus the assassin. And that's how you got to leverage it so you can get the information. It'll pay off. I would just close with this. They're going to catch him because there's going to be plenty of DNA, fingerprints, hair on that rifle or they'll trace it to him and they're going to have it. They may just need his identity. This is not a guy with a long criminal record probably, or this is not some special operations guy. It doesn't take a lot of talent to do what he did so there'll be able to catch him. Once they have the fingerprints, DNA, then they just got to get the suspect. Once they match that, it'll be an arrest.
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Lawrence (News Anchor)
Candelan, I want to pick on a point, pick up a point. Jim just said about it doesn't take a lot of talent to do this. NBC News reporting today, according to multiple firearms, experts said the weaponry available today would allow even a novice shooter to pull off such a hit. What have you been finding on that, Ken?
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Ken Delaney
Well, yeah, that's right. So this wasn't, this is not necessarily the work of a military trained sniper. This is something what most experts say is this is something that anyone proficient with a rifle who's been on the range a few times, this is a shot that they could make. And this was not an assault rifle, not an AR style rifle which we so often see in these kinds of attacks. This was a bolt action rifle that's a more than 100-year-old design that's never been banned in this country, but yet it did devastating damage. Just also a reminder that rifles do horrible damage to the human body. I mean, had this attack been mounted with a handgun, that shot couldn't have been made from that distance. And Charlie Kirk had security around him. So perhaps this attack wouldn't have been possible with a rifle. It was possible, but again, it didn't require, according to experts, didn't require military training, just required basic proficiency points.
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Lawrence (News Anchor)
Jim, what does the position of the shooter tell us? Chose a roof position with apparently what we now know is a very good Line of sight, line of trajectory directly to the target. How much planning does that involve?
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Commercial Announcer
Well, it does involve a little bit of planning, but he can just watch the attack on President Trump from Butler, Pennsylvania. He could know the of Lee Harvey Oswald snipers from elevated positions. And you're making the exact right point here, Lawrence, because when the shooter gets up onto the building and he's shooting down into the amphitheater where Mr. Kirk is in a clear shot, no citizens in his way, he's above all their heads, and he has a.30 06 rifle with a scope, they just put the crosshairs on there. If he's laying prone and that rifle is on the parapet of the roof, that is a fixed shot, a very, very simple shot. And I would say this. He wasn't aiming for Mr. Kirk's neck. That's not where shooters aim. He was aiming for his head. He was aiming right, you know, between the eyes. And he wasn't that accurate. It dropped about 8 inches, I believe, and hit Mr. Kirk in the neck. It's still a fatal wound because it's such a devastating round. It's a rifle you use to take down big game, deer, elk, bear. That's the rifle you use, and it creates a devastating wound. And that's what killed Mr. Kirk. So he's shooting down. When I was the assistant special Agent in charge in Dallas, down the street from the Schoolbook Depository, I used to go up to the museum on the sixth floor and look down, and if you've ever physically been there, you can really see what an easy, easy shot that was for Oswald with the motorcade going eight miles an hour. I mean, it was like shooting a duck in a barrel. It wasn't a hard shot at all. All that talk you about it, a hard shot. It was not. And Oswald was just a Marine who shot a rifle. He wasn't any great. You know, he had a marksmanship badge, but he knew how to shoot a rifle. That was an easy shot. This is a similar type shot down in a bowl, a scope, prone, laying the rifle down. Not a hard shot to mate. And he wasn't that accurate anyway. I think he dropped it about 8 inches. So let's. I don't think we're going to find out he's any great expert when he's captured Lawrence.
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Lawrence (News Anchor)
Andrew, you were nodding when Jim Kavanaugh was saying we, they are going to catch this suspect.
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Andrew Weissman
Yeah. One of the things that I sort of learned from watching these videos is that yesterday when we were talking, there was this issue about was this somebody who was sophisticated and was going to avoid, for instance, carrying a cell phone, was going to be really careful about their sort of their actual and their digital footprint. But you would think if somebody was really careful, they would wear just a black T shirt, they might wear a mask, they wouldn't wear identifiable backpack, they wouldn't have a baseball cap with an identifiable insignia on it. Those are the kinds of things that I am sure the FBI is all over, but I'm sort of looking to see where you get those things. But it's surprising because it does bespeak somebody who is not being that careful. And so I agree with Jim that this seems like the kind of person who is going to get caught because those are not things that you would do to be as innocuous as possible in this day and age where you can wear a mask and not be. It's the kind of thing that pre Covid it would stand out. Now it's not. But he is not wearing a mask. So there are a lot of things that sort of suggest that this is not the most sophisticated person.
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Lawrence (News Anchor)
Joining us now from Utah is NBC News reporter Jay Gray. Jay, you were in the room during that press briefing. I had to wait most of the day for it. And it was all to get that video.
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Jay Gray
Yeah. No, Lawrence, you're absolutely right. I think one thing it speaks to and you guys have been talking about it is the need for the help from the public. And they wanted to get this video out. They wanted those images of the shirt and the hat you've been talking about to be on the minds of people who may have any information that may be used here. I want to show you something that's going on right now here at the campus. And we've seen people throughout the day showing up and coming to what is a small makeshift memorial. The gathering has really intensified once the sun set here. They've got balloons, they've got flowers, cards and posters and people continuing to come into the area here and pay their respects. A couple of things we could pull from this briefing that I think was telling. Throughout the day we've heard this person described as a person of interest, but they have changed that verbiage completely with this latest nine minute briefing calling this person a suspect now and the shooter as well. They talked about again their need for the public to help in all of this. Talked about the tips. Seven thousand leads are tips, the most since the Boston bombing and 200 interviews. I think that speaks not only to the rapid pace of this investigation, but to how many officers and agents are on the ground right now. They have really dedicated everything they have every resource to this investigation. I think it was also telling to hear the governor say that there will be an arrest here and that they have already begun the paperwork to pursue the death penalty in this case. So he's leaving no question in his mind and sharing that with this community and the rest of the nation that he believes they are going to find this shooter and that they will pursue the death penalty.
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Commercial Announcer
Penalty.
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Jay Gray
I think it was also telling. And I'm not sure if you guys I was getting back to camera, so I'm not sure if you guys have talked about this, but Lawrence, the fact that we did not hear from the FBI director, we waited for his arrival, and many sources said that that was one of the reasons that this briefing was delayed. But we didn't hear a word from any federal agent, anyone from the federal side, including the director of the FBI, who made the trip here to tour the crime scene.
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Lawrence (News Anchor)
Jay, you didn't get a chance to ask any questions. No questions were allowed at this briefing. Have you been able have you been getting any information through the course of the day from any of the officials?
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Jay Gray
Here's the basics of what we've been told throughout the day, that there are multiple leads in this case and that there is no arrest. That that's been the extent of what we've learned. We've been told that there are teams on the ground, 20 teams on the ground here working, and they will continue to work around the clock. But as for specifics in this, no. And I think part of that, Lawrence, is that there's a real fine line that local and state officials are walking with the federal agents that are on the ground here. And nobody wants to step on toes early in this investigation. And so I think they're being very guarded, playing this very close to the vest. And I think another reason for that, Lawrence, is because they believe they have some very solid leads here.
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Lawrence (News Anchor)
NBC's Jay Gray in Orem, Utah, thank you very much for your reporting tonight, Jay. Andrew Weissman, I'm just going from my own visual memory of these kinds of events. I don't remember seeing an FBI director traveling across the country to a press briefing like this.
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Andrew Weissman
I do not either. There will be a time and place to examine what Kash Patel was doing and what he was saying yesterday and whether this delayed getting information out to the public. I have a lot of questions that I would ask about that. What I can do is compare it to the Boston Bombing. And I'm going to not mince words. There's not a snowball's chance in hell that Robert Mueller would ever delay getting information out because he personally, he was.
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Lawrence (News Anchor)
FBI director at the time.
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Andrew Weissman
Exactly. Mission number one right now in this case is to find this person.
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Commercial Announcer
For.
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Andrew Weissman
Public safety reasons, for accountability reasons. That is mission number one. That is what is going to be animating the career people at the federal and state level, and that is what should be animating them. And nothing should be delaying that. The FBI I worked at under Director Mueller operated that way. There will be questions about that. Right now, I think the main focus should not be Keshe Patel. And what's he doing? What's he not doing? Does he have the right experience? Has he ever done an investigation like this at all? I mean, what does he bring to the table? All of those are fair questions. But right now there's a bigger issue, which is making sure that the public stays safe, that they give all leads that they have based on the information that has been disseminated and that the FBI and the locals really can do their job.
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Lawrence (News Anchor)
Jim Kavanaugh, as we go forward.
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Andrew Weissman
Where.
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Lawrence (News Anchor)
Is the danger here? This is someone who is at large. The possibility of geographic now, of where this person is is unknowable. Watching those students out there on the campus tonight. And there was a lockdown for some period of time yesterday. There's no lockdown now. What about the possibility of danger as this person moves through the world, wherever that is?
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Commercial Announcer
Right. Well. And he gets emboldened or she. We don't really know for sure if it's a man. It looks like a man, but we can't be sure. But gets emboldened, gets away is somewhere now watching the news, manically watching, watching and listening to everything because they were successful. They're not caught. They've committed murder. They're an assassin. So, you know, it's extremely important for the nation that we catch this person. That's the biggest deterrent. And the reason it's a deterrent is it's a person who wants to get away. It's hard to deter the suicidal person who does the mass shooting and goes out like a flame because they don't even care if they're going to die or not. But this is a person who wants to get away and escape. And they get emboldened and they may try something else in a month. I just wanted to just say about your geo fencing discussion, Lawrence, that you had with Andrew last night and tonight, when I looked at the photographs on the stairway they released of the assassin looks to me like he has a cell phone in his right front jeans pocket. If you look at it closely, it's pretty clear in one of those shots it looks like a cell phone. So he might very well have a cell phone.
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Lawrence (News Anchor)
Let's in the control room go back. Two shots right there. So Jim, we have that shot up there. Now you're saying look at the right front pants pocket. Is that the outline of a cell phone? That's what you think you might be seeing there?
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Commercial Announcer
Well, it could be. It could be a cell phone. It could be a big cell phone. I mean, I don't know. It's not going to be a magazine for a.30 06 rifle. It could be something else. But a lot of guys and gals carry their phones right there in the pocket. So, Andrew, and you were making that geofence discussion. So there'll be thousands of records in geofencing, records like that. And you may have to go through a tedious process of elimination to find everyone who was there, and then you find the one who wasn't there. But that takes time. That takes weeks maybe, you know, that's not so quick. But it's just a point you guys were discussing last night. It doesn't look like he's that sophisticated. He was able to, you know, get a shot off a place, Lawrence, that has no security. Really, six policemen for 3,000 people. That's not any kind of, you know, real tight security. Not that they should have had it. I'm not saying that. But it just wasn't so he could waltz in or she with the rifle and take the shot. I would say this the country, it's an inflection point here, and it's important to catch the person. So we break the cycle. And here's a place where the Attorney General or the President can make a decision to take all the FBI agents and all the ATF agents that have been assigned to ICE duties and tomorrow relieve them of that. Relieve them of that. They've helped for these many months. They've done their assignments, but put them back on their normal assignments. Because these are the two agencies that stop killers, school shooters, bombers, snipers, arsonists, terrorists. These are the two key agencies in federal law enforcement that does that. So don't pull those hundreds and thousands off now when we're at this sort of inflection point of violence and we want to interrupt anybody who is wanting to do violence. So I think you'd hope the Attorney General and the President could sit down and talk about that, because they have a lot of other new ICE agents and other people assigned to ICE that can conduct the mission that they've assigned there. But they've pulled off hundreds and hundreds of ATF and FBI agents to do that. And I think now we need to put them back on their normal duties so they can help us stop violence in the country anywhere they can find it.
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Lawrence (News Anchor)
Ken Delaney, a technical question on geofencing. If that is a telephone, if that's a phone in that front pocket of the pants that we see in that shot, if that phone is turned off, would it still be captured in geofencing?
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Ken Delaney
LAWRENCE, you've gone past my technical knowledge, Ken.
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Lawrence (News Anchor)
I'm getting a nod here from Andrew Weissman on this. Andrew, go ahead.
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Andrew Weissman
Unless he is unusually sophisticated, the answer is it should still be pinging to cell towers. And a lot of times people think that their phone, just because they turn certain pieces off, isn't doing that, and it's happening in the background. So that is something I am confident that there have been cell tower dumps that is getting all of the cell tower information from around this location. The FBI is 100%. That is something that they have done.
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Lawrence (News Anchor)
KEN on the as we go forward, what's coming out of Washington on this FBI headquarters on this?
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Ken Delaney
LAWRENCE Absolutely nothing. And that's pretty much par for the course with this FBI. I just wanted to go back to something you guys were talking about, Christopher Wray, in terms of what the FBI is doing. Christopher Wray actually did visit the scene of one of these major incidents, the Las Vegas shooting. It was about two months into his tenure, and we all remember that was one of the most horrific mass shootings in American history. And still to this day, we don't know the motive of that shooter. So he felt compelled to go to that scene. But other than that, no one I've talked to, and I don't think anyone here in this discussion can think of any other time where an FBI director has gone to a scene like this, because FBI directors are not agents generally, besides Louis Free back in the 90s and tend to let the professionals do their jobs and get out of the way. And the last thing they want to be seen as doing is stepping on the professionals and appearing to be political. And look, that's not the way this FBI is operating. And another way that they are operating is that they don't provide information to the beat reporters who cover them. The professionals, the career public affairs people who work in Washington. If they know anything, they don't say anything. And I tend to suspect that they don't know a lot because Cash Patel and Dan Bongino have their own people around them and they keep information very tightly held. And they have made a conscious effort to reach out to right wing media and podcasts and other kinds of things and to pretty much ignore the beat reporters. Thankfully, not everyone ignores us. There are people that do talk to us and tell us what's going on, but they don't always have the kind of situational awareness that the director's office would have.
- [30:17]
Lawrence (News Anchor)
Ken Delaney and Jim Cavanaugh, Andrew Weissman, thank you for joining us in this breaking news situation. We're going to take a commercial break right here. We'll be right back. Back.
- [30:25]
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- [31:56]
Lawrence (News Anchor)
At 9:51pm tonight in Eastern Time in Utah, officials held a nine minute press briefing in which no questions were allowed, in which the principal purpose was to introduce a video of what they believe to be the shooter of the person who shot and killed Charlie Kirk fleeing from the scene off of the rooftop where that shooting they believe took place. And here is that video.
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Commercial Announcer
It the.
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Lawrence (News Anchor)
Video in its entirety shows that person running across the grass and through past the parking lot and across a street into another area. And we are joined Continue to be joined in our coverage of this, our live coverage of this by Andrew Weissman, former FBI general counsel and MSNBC legal analyst, and Jim Cabinet, former former ATF Special Agent in charge. Andrew, you made the point that the distinctive clothing, the identifiable shirt that they show in other photographs of him on a stairwell are not the kind of thing someone who really knew what they were doing here would do. They wouldn't have any kind of distinctive markings like on the backpack, as we see right there. There'd be nothing that you could find later somewhere and say, oh, here's the hat, here's the backpack.
- [34:01]
Andrew Weissman
Absolutely. And so that is why I think you're hearing from Jim and from me that this does not seem like the most sophisticated person, and it does suggest that he will be found. But time is of the essence. I mean, the issue here is not just accountability. It's that you do not know what he will do if cornered, if confronted. Is he planning on shooting someone else? Is he. Although this is a. Appears to be quite very much a lone actor, but are there others who were working with him? Who is he coordinating with? I mean, those are all open questions. One of the things that I was struck by both yesterday at the press conference and then tonight's press conference is usually in these things, in my experience, there is a clear sense of who is the quarterback, who is actually taking charge. Now, it's certainly not going to be the governor, and it also appears that it's not Cash Patel, which is fine. I mean, it's fine for that not to be the case. But there are, as Jim knows, there are so many leads to follow. You need to be sure this isn't like a children's soccer game where everyone runs after the ball. The point of experienced leadership is to be making those decisions and to be focusing your resources on leads and leads as they develop to make sure that you are moving this forward in the most in the direction that is most likely to find this person. And that is the one thing that I was sort of struck by, because I don't think sitting here today, I don't think anyone can tell you from just what we saw who is leading this, who is actually in charge, and what is their experience. So just from a public confidence point of view, that is something that, as a citizen, I would think they want. But I can say as somebody who is in law enforcement, it is Unusual to not see that.
- [36:02]
Lawrence (News Anchor)
And Jim, I was wondering as they were standing there, that state of Utah is represented there, FBI is represented there. But given the ease with which you could make an automotive escape to neighboring states, what about the state of California? What about Wyoming? What about Nevada? What about Idaho? What about Montana? All these states that are within the first stage of an escape drive, what should those states be doing?
- [36:32]
Commercial Announcer
Well, they'll probably be getting information through the fusion centers. The state fusion centers that encompass all the police and federal agents in that state usually have an intelligence fusion center. Those were mostly stood up after 9, 11. So most of the states have those. And it'll be in coordination if there's something to be released. But they don't have a lot to release right now. They just have these videos and of course, the circumstances of the corpus delicti of the assassination, the facts making up the body of the assassination, the.30 06 rifle, and, you know, the description of this guy or girl. And so that's what they have, and that's what they'll be putting out. They need more information. Like the video you just showed. If the public hadn't seen that before, when the citizen now sees this, they could be a person who was in that parking lot in one of those vehicles that's driving right by this guy and say, oh, wow, I might have drove right by this guy. So they need to be interviewed and debriefed. You're trying to look for any little thread. Like Andrew said, you're trying to look for a little bitty thing. It's not going to be something big. That geofencing might give you a number. Somebody went by and say, oh, I saw a certain car tag number. You know, it's how we caught Eric Rudolph when I was the agent in charge in Birmingham, and he killed a Birmingham cop with an improvised claymore mine at the abortion clinic and fragged all the nurses with nails when he left. After he detonated the bomb remote control, he tried to leave and a citizen followed him while he walked a mile and a half up Red Mountain and got his tag number. That's how we broke that case. And he was responsible for the bombings in the Atlantic Olympics and four bombings over there and plus the one we had in Birmingham. So you're looking for a little tidbit of something. I think this guy's gonna be caught. You know, what you're looking for as a commander is the forensics. And you keyed on this early, Lawrence, the forensics. Listen, I'm waiting there at the command Desk for that. Tell me you got a latent print. You can match it. A palm print. You can match it. DNA, Sweat DNA on a towel, you can match it. I know. I got them then. I got them then. If I got to sort through 8 million people, I'm going to get them and everybody. That's the way the commanders will be feeling. And they should be in that joint operations center bringing that stuff together. They're talking about having 7,000 leads, and that's what you get. You know, in the D.C. sniper, we were getting 15,000 telephone tips a day, and we had, you know, 800 FBI and 600 ATF and a few thousand Maryland cops and troopers. I mean, we had a monumental team there, and we had to organize all that and do it together. And I think what happens is when the teams come together, go out on assignments, it might be an FBI agent, a sheriff's detective, an ATF agent, and a state trooper. Everybody's just seen as investigators, and they're given their lead assignments to go out and bring that data back and get it in the computer system. And we had one, and ATF and FBI has one. And you need that to track the leads. In this case, you really need it because the leads are already overwhelming you. And you've got to find this ghost before he kills again. I think I'd be keeping a real open mind that he could be far afield of Orem, Utah.
- [39:53]
Lawrence (News Anchor)
Andrew, when I see that run across the roof and the jumping down, it's a pretty significant drop at that point. And then run across the grass, run across the street. This doesn't seem like a very sophisticated plan for an escape route. Very visible, obviously caught on camera.
- [40:10]
Andrew Weissman
Yeah, that is absolutely right. The one thing it is worth remembering, though, as has been pointed out, is there weren't a lot of police around here. So this wasn't something where he was worried about that there would be guards that he would have to go by, and he was at a considerable distance from. So he was not in the middle of all of these people who were gathered around. So that is the unfortunate advantage of being able to kill from that distance, is that he could say, you know what? The people who are there, who we are seeing this parking lot are not. We're not at the scene. So they're not sort of like looking right now for that suspect.
- [41:00]
Lawrence (News Anchor)
Andrew Weisman and Jim Kavanaugh, thank you very much for your invaluable expertise in guiding this coverage tonight. Thank you very much for joining us. And coming up, 24 years ago, today the city of New York was attacked as no American city had ever been attacked before on 9 11. A woman who thought her life was ending that day on the 40th floor of the World Trade center will join us next.
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Lawrence (News Anchor)
Once again today at Ground Zero, they read every one of the names of the people who were lost on this day, September 11, 2001.
- [42:53]
Ken Delaney
Gordon M. Amoth Jr. Mary Katherine Murphy.
- [42:59]
Andrew Weissman
BofA Bernard C. Brown II Janice J.
- [43:06]
Jocelyn Brooks
Louise Brown Richard George Brewhert Andrew Brun.
- [43:23]
Lawrence (News Anchor)
The name Jocelyn Brooks was not among the names read today because she somehow made it all the way down from her cubicle on the 40th floor of the World Trade center to safety. Kyle Melnick told her story today in the Washington Post. Quote about an hour after arriving at her cubicle on the North Tower's 40th floor that morning, Brooks heard a loud crash and the building shook. Debris fell outside a window. She recalled turning to a colleague and saying, this is it. Thinking she was about to die, Brooks left her backpack, wallet and cell phone behind. As she ran to the staircase, which was overcrowded with people descending and firefighters ascending, one woman stopped and shouted, I can't breathe. Brooks said. So Brooks thumped on her chest for about a minute and told her, breathe. Until she Calmed down in a clarifying moment, Brooks had two thoughts. She needed to watch her two children become adults, and she needed to pursue her childhood dream of working in medicine. Surviving seemed like the hand of fate, she said, and she wasn't going to waste it. Jocelyn Brooks pursued a nursing degree and now works at the premier cancer center in the world, New York's Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer center, with some patients who developed cancer after inhaling toxins at ground zero that day on the tough days at work. Now she tells her colleagues, we're going to get through the day together, and it's going to be a great day. And joining us now is Jocelyn Brooks. Thank you very much for joining us tonight. This story that I read this morning was just so moving and so inspiring that in that moment that you thought could be your final moment, you saw the future that you would grab if it wasn't your final moment.
- [45:21]
Jocelyn Brooks
Indeed. Thank you for having me, Lawrence. Yes, that moment was the pivoting moment of my life. And that's how I am here today. And I'm here for a purpose. Nothing happens. It's never a coincidence. This is my purpose, and I'm living it. I am truly living it out, caring for people, some of which have developed cancers related to 9, 11. And I am there. I am alive, and I am going to give them the best care that I could possibly give them. I'm going to hold their hands and I'm going to see them through this.
- [46:06]
Lawrence (News Anchor)
And what came through in this article is this feeling that you are an optimist. You find it talks about how you're the one who lifts the spirits at a cancer center. I mean, working at a cancer center, it's a lot of people getting a lot of bad news.
- [46:26]
Jocelyn Brooks
Yes. No. Two days are the same. And our patient population, they are very vulnerable, and they need. They need every bit of strength that they can get from us. And we, I mean, we are nurses, right. We have our issues, too, but we can't bring our issues to them. What they are going through is beyond anything that we can think of. So if we can lift them up, we're going to do it. And I am going to do it. And I encourage my staff that we are going to get them up and going and out of there.
- [47:06]
Lawrence (News Anchor)
You were quoted in the Washington Post saying, I want to hold somebody's hands when they're crying, when they're at their lowest, because I survived. So because you survived, you felt that you owed us something?
- [47:22]
Jocelyn Brooks
Of course. Every day I wake up, Lawrence, I wake up with an attitude of gratitude. I am thankful for life. I am thankful for so much. So whatever I can give to whomever, if I can hold your hands, if I can just sit, pull up a chair next to your bed and encourage you that day, I have done my work. Yes.
- [47:48]
Lawrence (News Anchor)
What is 911 like for you? There have been 23 of them since that. The one that was the tragedy that we all remember. But it recurs every year. We hear the names every year. You know so many of those names.
- [48:03]
Jocelyn Brooks
Yes. Yes. No. Two 9 11s are the same for me. Absolutely not. And today, more than ever, I was very emotional today. I have cried. I have wept at least eight to nine times today on different occasions. I just broke down and cried. It was a lot going on. And just feedback from the Washington Post and other articles that have been posted today. Just reading the feedback and seeing what a difference my story has made for people. I read one response today that said I needed this story today. I needed to read this today. And if my story can help someone in any way, I have won. I have won.
- [49:00]
Lawrence (News Anchor)
I needed this story today. And I know because of you, tomorrow's gonna be a good day.
- [49:06]
Jocelyn Brooks
Yes. Yes, it most definitely will. And you will get through tomorrow.
- [49:12]
Lawrence (News Anchor)
You've given me that confidence. Jocelyn Brooks, thank you so much for being here. I cannot thank you enough. Really, really important and honored to have you here.
- [49:19]
Jocelyn Brooks
Thank you for having me. It was a pleasure.
- [49:22]
Lawrence (News Anchor)
We'll be right back. The remarkable Jocelyn Brooks gets tonight's last word.
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