← The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell
The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell
Senate Dems demand DOJ release tapes of Blanche-Maxwell interview
00:42:24
Tonight on The Last Word: The House Oversight Committee rejects Ghislaine Maxwell’s immunity request. Also, former North Carolina Governor Roy Cooper launches his U.S. Senate bid. Plus, Trump fails to “make America affordable again.” And Democratic attorneys general sue to block Trump’s SNAP data order. Rep. Raja Krishnamoorthi, Barbara McQuade, Jennifer Rubin, Anderson Clayton, Sen. Lisa Blunt Rochester, and Washington Attorney General Nick Brown join Jonathan Capehart.
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- [00:00]
Rachel Maddow
Saturday, October 11th from New York City, it's MSNBC Live 25. Join your favorite MSNBC hosts, Rachel Maddow, Joe Scarborough, Mika Brzezinski, Nicole Wallace, Ari Melber, Alicia Menendez, Simone Sanders Townsend, Michael Steele, Chris Haynes, jen Psaki, Lawrence O', Donnell, Stephanie Ruhl and more. Visit msnbc.comlive25 to buy your tickets today. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts for early access, ad free listening and bonus content to all of MSNBC's original podcasts, including the chart topping series the Best People with Nicole Wallace, why Is this Happening? Main justice and more. Plus new episodes of all your favorite MSNBC shows ad free and ad free listening to all of Rachel Maddow's original series, Ultra Bagman and Deja News. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts.
- [01:01]
Jonathan Capehart
The Last word with Jonathan Capehart in for Lawrence starts right now. Hey, Jonathan. I almost said hey, Lawrence. Hey, Jonathan.
- [01:07]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Lawrence.
- [01:09]
Jen Psaki
Look, I'll take it. Being called Lawrence is like, not like. It is a high compliment. I'll take it totally.
- [01:15]
Jonathan Capehart
Yes.
- [01:16]
Jen Psaki
Well, there you go.
- [01:17]
Jonathan Capehart
I would be happy to be called Lawrence too. So I'm glad you're taking it as a compliment.
- [01:22]
Jen Psaki
Yes, ma'. Am. Go enjoy the rest of your evening.
- [01:24]
Alicia Menendez
Thank you so much.
- [01:25]
Jen Psaki
Have a great show. Thank you, Jen. Tonight, Donald Trump is changing his story again about his ties to convicted sex trafficker and pedophile Jeffrey Epstein. Donald Trump now says Jeffrey Epstein, quote, stole employees, including young women who were working at his Mar A Lago resort. NBC News pressed Donald Trump on his changing story.
- [01:52]
Michael Steele
You said yesterday your falling out with Jeffrey Epstein was over him taking some of the workers from your business. But your administration in the past said that you threw him out because he was a creep. So can you explain that to Scruffy?
- [02:03]
Donald Trump
Well, maybe they're the same thing. You know, it's sort of a little bit of the same thing. But no, he took people that work for me and I told him, don't do it anymore. And he did it. And I said, stay the hell out of here.
- [02:14]
Jen Psaki
President Trump was also asked about Epstein victim, the late Virginia Giuffre.
- [02:21]
Donald Trump
Were some of them young women? That story's been pretty well out there. And the answer is yes, they were. Yes, they were young women.
- [02:28]
Simone Sanders Townsend
What did they do in the spa?
- [02:30]
Donald Trump
Yeah, people that work in the spa. I have a great spa, one of the best spas in the world at Mar A Lago. And people were taken out of the spa, hired by him. In other words, gone. And other people would come and complain this guy is taking people from the spa. I didn't know that. And then when I heard about it, I told him, I said, listen, we don't want you taking our people. Whether it was spa or not spa, I don't want him taking people. And he was fine. And then not too long after that, he did it again. And I said, out of here.
- [03:03]
Michael Steele
Mr. President, did one of those stolen, you know, persons that include Virginia Nephre?
- [03:12]
Donald Trump
I don't know. I think she worked at the spa. I think so. I think that was one of the people. Yeah, he stole her.
- [03:22]
Jen Psaki
He stole her. That's how Donald Trump described a teenage girl who was trafficked for sex who committed suicide earlier this year at the age of 41. In the past, Virginia Giuffre said she was recruited at age 16 while working as a spa attendant at Mar A Lago in the year 2000. Trump's comments today contradict the denials from the Trump White House, which claimed Epstein was kicked out of Mar A Lago for being a, quote, creep. Trump maintains he didn't know anything about Epstein's abuse and there are no allegations of Trump being involved. Two years after Virginia Giuffre says she was recruited from Trump's resort, Trump told New York Magazine, I've known Jeff for 15 years. Terrific guy. Virginia Giuffre said she was recruited by Epstein's co conspirator Ghislaine Maxwell, who is serving a 20 year sentence for grooming underage girls for Jeffrey Epstein to sexually abuse. Maxwell was reportedly granted limited immunity last week to speak at a secret meeting with Trump's Deputy Attorney General, Todd Blanche. With the entire ordeal shrouded in mystery, Senate Democrats are demanding answers. They want all the transcripts and recordings from the Justice Department's meeting with Maxwell. And they're asking the same questions many Americans are. Is Donald Trump considering a pardon for Ghislaine Maxwell? Here's what Trump said yesterday when asked.
- [05:02]
Donald Trump
Well, I'm allowed to give her a pardon, but nobody's approached me with it. Nobody's asked me about it. It's in the news about that, that aspect of it, but right now, it would be inappropriate to talk about it.
- [05:19]
Jen Psaki
So Senate Democrats are insisting that the Justice Department commit to denying a pardon or commutation to Maxwell in exchange for information. And today, the House Oversight Committee declined Ghislaine Maxwell's request for immunity in exchange for providing testimony to Congress. In a letter to the committee, Maxwell's lawyer. If Ms. Maxwell were to receive clemency, she would be willing and Eager to to testify openly and honestly in public before Congress in Washington, D.C. otherwise, they say, she would assert her Fifth Amendment rights and decline to testify. Democrats on the House Oversight Committee are also requesting that the Epstein estate provide Congress with a copy of Epstein's 2003 birthday book, which was compiled by Ghislaine Maxwell. The Wall Street Journal reports the Epstein birthday book contains a letter bearing Donald Trump's name with a drawing of a naked woman. Trump has said the birthday letter is, quote, fake and is suing the Wall Street Journal over its reporting on this letter.
- [06:28]
Donald Trump
I'm not a drawing person. I don't do drawings of women. That I can tell you. They say there's a drawing of a woman and I don't do drawings of women.
- [06:38]
Jen Psaki
Earlier today, Trump said this about his lawsuit against the Wall Street Journal.
- [06:44]
Donald Trump
It's all gossip and, you know, I've been treated badly by the Wall Street Journal. I would have assumed that Rupert Murdoch controls it, but, you know, maybe does, maybe doesn't. They are talking to us about doing something, but we'll see what happens. Maybe they would like us to drop that and so we'll see. Yeah, they're having. They want to settle it. No, he's treated us and, you know, when I get treated unfairly, I do things about it.
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Jen Psaki
Donald Trump is now asking a federal judge to force Rupert Murdoch, the owner of the Wall Street Journal, to sit for a deposition on or before August 4th in connection to Trump's lawsuit over the Journal's Epstein birthday book. Reporting in the filing, Trump's attorney says, quote, Murdoch is 94 years old, has suffered from multiple health issues throughout his life, and is believed to have suffered recent significant health scares and is presumed to live in New York. New York. Taken together, these factors weigh heavily in determining that Murdoch would be unavailable for in person testimony at trial. Trump claims he has nothing to do with Jeffrey Epstein, despite photos, videos and quotes that show they were clearly friends. That doesn't mean Trump was aware of of Epstein's trafficking ring. But this story is not going away. New polling from the Washington post shows that 58% of Americans disapprove of President Trump's handling of the Epstein files, and an overwhelming majority, 86%, support releasing the files. Trump campaigned on releasing the Epstein client list, and Trump's Attorney General, Pam Bondi said in February that the Epstein files were, quote, sitting on my desk. Podcaster Joe Rogan, who was openly supportive of Trump during the campaign, now says the Trump administration is gaslighting. This is a line in the sand. This One's a line in the sand.
- [08:49]
Simone Sanders Townsend
Because this is one where there's a lot of stuff about.
- [08:54]
Jen Psaki
When we thought Trump was going to come in and a lot of things are going to be resolved, going to drain the swamp. We're going to figure everything out.
- [09:01]
Simone Sanders Townsend
And when you have this one hardcore.
- [09:03]
Jen Psaki
Line in the sand that everybody had been talking about forever, and then they're trying to gaslight you on that. Joining us now, Democratic Congressman Raja Krishnamurthy of Illinois. He's a member, a member of the House Oversight Committee. Thank you very much, Congressman, for coming back to the last word. The Oversight Committee will depose Ghislaine Maxwell in prison on August 11. Today, her lawyers asked for immunity. Comer indicated he won't do that.
- [09:34]
Simone Sanders Townsend
Yeah, I think it's notable that Jim Comer said no immunity deal. But in addition to that, she asked for the questions in advance. She asked for the ability to leave prison and come and testify in the open. And I think these are just ridiculous conditions. And I think that we should have her testify without any strings attached.
- [10:02]
Jen Psaki
Comer has yet to issue a subpoena for all the Epstein files from the Department of Justice. Is Comer going to actually follow through with using his subpoena power?
- [10:14]
Simone Sanders Townsend
I hope so. But at the end of the day, as you know, we don't have, like, an inherent ability to enforce this subpoena without going through the Justice Department and then going to the courts. And so if she resists, then we would have to go to the courts and the Justice Department. As you know, Donald Trump controls this Justice Department. And the number two, the deputy attorney general is basically Trump's lawyer. And so we would have to deal with him, unfortunately.
- [10:45]
Jen Psaki
How concerned are you about Maxwell's meeting with the deputy attorney general and former Trump criminal defense lawyer Todd Blanche?
- [10:54]
Simone Sanders Townsend
Extremely concerned. Look, I think that she wants to get out of jail. That is her number one imperative at this point. And on the other hand, Donald Trump's lawyer has the ability to offer inducements, make threats, do various things to shape her testimony, maybe even get her to say things that are completely fabricated and untrue and weaponize her against Democrats, for instance. And so I'm extremely concerned about that. That's why I'm glad that Senator Durbin asked for all the files associated with this interview, any transcripts. And the fact that they have not been provided raises even more questions and causes probably even a greater percentage of Americans to want the full Epstein files and everything about it to be released and for there to be full accountability in an administration where there's very little at this point.
- [11:50]
Jen Psaki
Are you satisfied, Congressman, with the pace and scope of congressional efforts to investigate, to investigate? Do you believe Republicans are actually interested in getting at the truth?
- [12:03]
Simone Sanders Townsend
You know, interestingly, I was talking to some of my Republican colleagues in private and they are under a lot of pressure on this one from their base. Now, we've seen Trump pull a Houdini in the past with regard to similar situations in other contexts. But in this particular case, there seems to be an unusual amount of pressure from the most right wing of the MAGA base and members of Congress who represent them, you know, everyone from Marjorie Taylor Greene to Scott Perry to Mr. Norman of South Carolina and so forth. And I think that this one may not go away. I should just say one other thing, which is that, you know, my constituents are saying, as your poll indicated, release the files, bring full transparency and accountability here with the Epstein situation. But they're also saying get to our business, get to our other legislative business, which has come to a standstill because of this Epstein issue. The worst case scenario is, you know, this thing is going to continue to linger. They're not going to disclose the files. The fracturing within the Republican Party is going to grow, and then we're coming up on a September 30 deadline to fund the government. And we can't, you know, we could possibly be looking at a shutdown of government caused by the Epstein affair, which would be extremely, extremely unfortunate for my constituents.
- [13:30]
Jen Psaki
Congressman, you are very good at TV because you anticipated what my next question was going to be and that was what are you hearing from your constituents? You told me what you're hearing from them. You are hearing from them. So on that, we're going to leave it there. Congressman Raja Krishnamoorthy, thank you very much for coming back to the last word.
- [13:49]
Alicia Menendez
Thank you, Jonathan.
- [13:51]
Jen Psaki
Joining US Now, Barbara McQuaid, former U.S. attorney and a law professor at the University of Michigan Law School. She is an MSNBC legal analyst. And Jennifer Rubin, co founder and editor in chief of the Contrarian. She is also an MSNBC political analyst. Barbara, the Trump legal team wants Rupert Murdoch deposed within 15 days over the Wall Street Journal defamation lawsuit. What does that tell you about their strategy?
- [14:19]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Well, it seems, Jonathan, that this is really an aggressive strategy. It's about making a point. It is about making a public relations point. I think in the media, I think they know it is highly unlikely that Rupert Murdoch will sit for a deposition in 15 days, let alone ever. He is in poor health. He's 94 years old. I Think it's highly unlikely. But by pushing for this publicly, when that fails to happen, he can point to the Wall Street Journal and Rupert Murdoch as dragging their feet and not wanting to be forthcoming in the facts about this case.
- [14:54]
Jen Psaki
Jan. About Glenn Maxwell's plea to the Supreme Court for them to consider her appeal. In a statement, Maxwell's attorney, David Oscar Marcus said President Trump built his legacy in part on the power of a deal, and surely he would agree that when the United States gives its word, it must stand by it. We are appealing not only to the Supreme Court, but to the president himself to recognize how profoundly unjust it is to scapegoat Ghislaine Maxwell for Epstein's crimes, especially when the government promised she would not be prosecuted. Jen, what do you make of this appeal to Trump?
- [15:31]
Jonathan Capehart
Well, let me just comment very briefly that one of the reasons he wants to depose Epstein, rather Rupert Murray, is Trump doesn't want to get deposed. Of course, truth is a defense. And the Wall Street Journal need only begin to make noise about putting Trump under oath, and the whole purpose of this lawsuit, to turn the table, falls away. So I suspect that's part of it as far as this appeal is absurd. She is going back to a agreement, a sweetheart deal, that was made by Alex Acosta in 2008, and it included some language about not prosecuting people at that point. There was subsequent investigation. She was indicted, she was convicted. She was sentenced for 20 years. And let me be clear, it wasn't simply on trafficking. Witnesses testified that she participated in the abuse. And we use these euphemism words. We're talking about raping children, we're talking about sex with underage girls. That's statutory rape. So the notion that she should be high and mighty, making demands of the Congress, trying to cajole Trump into pardoning her, trying to wheedle her way into the Supreme Court is just absurd and rather sickening. And it really does go to the fact that this has gone on way too long. This is a matter of public interest. It should be out in the open. There's no reason to hold back a large majority of these documents. You can protect witnesses by redacting their names and let the public see. Let the chips fall where they may.
- [17:16]
Jen Psaki
Well, speaking out in the open. Barbara. Senator Dick Durbin is demanding transcripts and recordings of Trump's Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche's prison interviews with Ghislaine Maxwell. Two, actually, three questions. Do they actually exist? What legal standing would apply here? And could the Department of Justice refuse to Comply?
- [17:39]
Lawrence O'Donnell
Yeah. So first, I don't know if a recording was made of an interview, they often are not recorded. Sometimes notes are taken, sometimes a transcript is done. But this is such an unusual interview that it's hard to know what method was used to memorialize the answers to her questions. So I don't know. Question two is, can Congress subpoena these records? Yeah, they can, but I imagine that there will be some sort of pushback under either executive privilege or to suggest that this is an ongoing investigation at this stage. The fact that DOJ has sort of reopened this matter and is interviewing Ghislaine Maxwell suggests that perhaps they are considering some sort of deal where she gets either a pardon or a commutation of her sentence. So I think they might be able to push back on that regard. So I'd be surprised if there is any recording if it gets turned over anytime soon, and certainly not without a fight. Also, because the Democrats are in the minority at this stage, I don't know that they have the political juice to get the votes to demand anything from the Justice Department at this stage.
- [18:43]
Jen Psaki
Hey, Jen, Joe Rogan calls all of this gaslighting. How do you see what's happening in the Trump base right now?
- [18:52]
Jonathan Capehart
Well, I'm pained to say that I agree with him entirely. He thinks the base is pretty dumb. Throwing out a timeline, for example, that is grossly inaccurate. The break with Jeffrey Epstein, of course, came much later. And his admission that a young woman working for him was his and was taken by Jeffrey Epstein is not exactly helpful to Donald Trump. But be that as it may, I think at this point there really is no reason to hold back the information. I think at least for the present, the Democrats have very little leverage. And one thing they can do, however, and that is when the attorney general, when other Justice Department officials come up to testify, whatever the subject matter is or whatever a nominee is nominated that may have information, they can certainly ask questions. And in fact, although he was tragically, horribly confirmed this evening, that's what they could have done, should have done with Emil Beauvais because of course, he is a high ranking official and could well have had information about Emil Bovey. But one thing they could do is they could ask to have Todd Bledge come up there and ask him why? Why does a high ranking official vote to talk to this woman? Why is no line prosecutor doing this? They can certainly ask the questions of him. He may choose not to answer, but they can call him up. He's an official. They have jurisdiction over him.
- [20:30]
Jen Psaki
Yeah, I'd Watch that. That's a hearing I would watch. Barbara McQuaid, Jennifer Rubin, thank you both very much as always for coming to the last word. Coming up, a Senate seat in North Carolina is up for grabs and Democrats are rallying around former Governor Roy Cooper to flip the seat from red to Blue in just 24 hours. Since announcing his candidacy, Roy Cooper has received some major fundraising and endorsements. We'll talk to Anderson Clayton, chair of the North Carolina Democratic Party, about what to expect in that Senate race. That's next.
- [21:08]
Rachel Maddow
MSNBC presents the chart topping original podcast, the Best People with Nicole Wallace. This week she sits down with political commentator Tim Miller.
- [21:18]
Jen Psaki
Another way of saying I care about.
- [21:20]
Lisa Blunt Rochester
You is by saying, like, I'm going.
- [21:21]
Jen Psaki
To fight the things that are preventing you from living the kind of life.
- [21:25]
Rachel Maddow
That you wish the best. People with Nicole Wallace. Listen now. For early access ad free listening and bonus content. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts. Start your day with the MSNBC Daily Newsletter. Sharp insights from voices you trust, standout moments from your favorite shows, and fresh perspectives from experts shaping the news. Sign up now@msnbc.com.
- [21:56]
Jen Psaki
We have some breaking news we are monitoring. The U.S. west coast is under a tsunami watch and there are tsunami warnings for Alaska's Aleutian Islands and the entire state of Hawaii. That's after a magnitude 8.7 earthquake struck off the coast of Russia. The first tsunami wave could reach Hawaii just after 1:10am Eastern Time. The National Weather Service reports that the tsunami could cause damage across all coastlines of every island in Hawaii. Residents have been told urgent action should be taken to protect lives and property. So far, no injuries have been reported. Officials in Japan issued a tsunami alert for that nation's Pacific coast after the quake as well. We will continue to update you on any developments throughout the evening. But turning to political news, the Democrats hope of flipping the Senate in next year's midterms just got a big boost. I never really wanted to go to Washington. I just wanted to serve the people of North Carolina right here where I've lived all my life. But these are not ordinary Times. Politicians in D.C. are running up our debt, ripping away our health care, disrespecting our veterans, cutting health for the poor, and even putting Medicare and Social Security at risk just to give tax breaks to billionaires. That's wrong and I've had enough. In the 24 hours since Roy Cooper announced he was running for Senate in North Carolina, Politico reports the former governor raised a record breaking $3.4 million and Democrats are uniting around their candidate with former Congressman Wiley Nichol dropping out and endorsing Cooper. It was an honor to work alongside Governor Cooper in the state Senate and in Congress. I've seen firsthand his steady bipartisan leadership. He listens, he shows up and he gets things done. I proudly endorse Governor Cooper for US Senate and look forward to doing everything I can to help him flip this Senate seat from red to blue. Democrats see an opportunity to pick up that Senate seat in North Carolina left open by the retirement of Republican Senator Thom Tillis after he opposed the Trump Republican budget bill's cuts to Medicaid that will kick millions off of health insurance. Roy Cooper brings with him a track record of winning statewide elections in a state Donald Trump won three times. As NBC News points out, quote, Cooper was first elected governor in 2016 after having served four terms as the state's attorney general. He defeated the Republican governor at the time, Pat McCrory, by around 10,000 votes even as Donald Trump won the state by nearly 4 points. Cooper won a second term in 2020 by 4 points while Trump carried North Carolina 4 by 1 point. Democrats have not won a Senate race in North Carolina since 2008. But our next guest, the chair of the North Carolina Democratic Party, said in a statement, quote, roy Cooper is one of the best champions North Carolina has ever had and we are confident he will flip this seat in 2026. Here's what Roy Cooper told Rachel Maddow last night about how he helped expand Medicaid in North Carolina. When I handed that Medicaid card to Penny on the first day of Medicaid expansion, I saw tears in her eyes and we knew that we had accomplished something getting health insurance to people who had never had it before. Now Washington Republicans are going to strip it away and I believe that rural Americans are going to let their members of Congress and their senators have it once they find out that they're about to lose life saving health insurance. Joining us now, Anderson Clayton, chair of the North Carolina Democratic Party. Anderson, great to see you again. Thanks for coming back to the Last Word. Democrats have been trying to win North Carolina for several cycles. Why do you think this time will be different?
- [26:15]
Michael Steele
You know, Governor Cooper has been a champion in North Carolina, but also someone that has come up through our political system as both Attorney General and one of our longest serving governors who's also done incredible work for the state, expanding healthcare access to hundreds of thousands of people across North Carolina and also comes from rural North Carolina. It's important to note that He's a Rocky Mount person, somebody that grew up in Nash county and understands communities across our state right now that are suffering from Republican policies that they're enacting in Washington, D.C. without ever having stepped foot in some of these communities.
- [26:48]
Jen Psaki
Well, on that point, about what's happening in Washington, D.C. nationally, Trump's approval rating is sinking, particularly on the economy. How do North Carolinians see it?
- [26:59]
Michael Steele
I think right now people's pocketbooks are hurting, right? We just had the reconciliation bill in Washington, right. Raise people's insurance rates over 18%. We're already seeing folks that are impacted with small businesses in places like Moore county that are seeing less foot traffic because of the threat that tariffs are posing. And we're also seeing that impact across farms across North Carolina too, like Hickory Nut Gap, which is one of the farms in western North Carolina that's been impacted the most. And I think that North Carolina's North Carolinians want to see people that are going up to Washington right now to represent our best interest, not a party's best interest. And all that you're going to see from the Republican opponents that they're going to put up in this race are folks that want to enact Donald Trump's agenda right now, not enact North Carolina agenda.
- [27:43]
Jen Psaki
Governor Cooper's announcement video focused on the middle class and he talked about Medicaid last night. How will North Carolina feel, the cuts in the Republican budget bill that is now the Republican budget law?
- [27:55]
Michael Steele
North Carolina was one of the last states, honestly, to expand Medicaid after we had a Republican legislature in North Carolina that led a 10 year effort to deny Medicaid expansion, which ended up helping close rural hospitals across North Carolina. But what we saw was a bipartisan effort in 2023 to come back and actually under Governor Cooper's leadership, expand Medicaid access to over 600,000 people in North Carolina that are not going to have access to health insurance anymore because of the bbb. And that's what we saw, honestly, Thom Tillis take a no vote on that bill because of is that he could not come back to North Carolina and look in the eyes of people across rural regions in this state right now that are going to suffer the consequences of the actions of one person. And we see it right now, even with Martin county alone. Mart is one of the counties that lost their hospital due to lack of Medicaid expansion in that 10 year coverage gap. And what we saw is that they had the potential to do a public private partnership and actually reopen that hospital and because of this bill passing in Washington, D.C. county commissioners there are saying it's not going to happen any longer. And so when you're looking at the fact that people are struggling to access maternal care, health care, access of all kinds in these regions of the state, you're not exactly telling people you want to help them.
- [29:08]
Jen Psaki
Anderson Clayton, chair of the North Carolina Democratic Party, thank you as always, for coming to the Last word. Coming up, Donald Trump is failing on yet another campaign promise, this time to make America affordable again. Voters are taking note as US Businesses are still bracing for the full impact of Trump's tariffs. Our next guest, Senator Lisa Blunt Rochester, will join us to discuss how she's working to curb Trump's economic disasters. And that's next.
- [29:40]
Rachel Maddow
MSNBC's Jen Psaki, host of the Briefing.
- [29:43]
Jonathan Capehart
We've never experienced a moment like this in our country, and it leaves us all with a choice. Are we gonna speak out or are we gonna be pressured into silence? I've worked for presidents. I've faced the tough questions from the press and even threats from the Kremlin. And if there's one thing I've learned, it's that you can't cower to bullies.
- [29:59]
Jen Psaki
You don't need to be hopeless.
- [30:01]
Jonathan Capehart
We have our voices, and I will continue using mine.
- [30:04]
Rachel Maddow
The Briefing with Jen Psaki, Tuesday through Friday at 9pm Eastern on MSNBC.
- [30:13]
Jen Psaki
Do you remember when Donald Trump said this during his address to a joint session of Congress in March?
- [30:20]
Donald Trump
I'm fighting every day to reverse this damage and make America affordable again.
- [30:27]
Jen Psaki
Fast forward almost five months and he's done pretty much the exact same opposite. And Americans are starting to take notice. A recent CBS News poll shows 70% of Americans think Donald Trump is not focusing enough on lowering prices. 64% disapprove of Donald Trump's handling of inflation. 60% oppose Donald Trump's tariffs on imports. Many US businesses are still bracing for the full impact of Trump's tariffs. NPR reports. As President Donald Trump prepares to announce new tariff increases, the costs of his policies are starting to come into focus for a domestic manufacturing sector that depends on global supply chains, with a new analysis suggesting factory costs could increase by roughly 2% to 4.5%. Those increases will likely be passed on to Americans who are already feeling the squeeze because, well, the rent is too damn high. Fortune magazine reports US median rent has risen from about $824 in 2008 to more than $1,300 in 2025. As rent has increased faster than wages, Americans are spending much more of their income on housing. On average, it now takes an entire week's worth of pay to afford monthly rent. And buying a home is becoming less and less attainable. The Wall Street Journal reports individual home buyers are largely locked out of the housing market as home prices continue to climb and interest rates remain stuck. But investors are buying and dominating the market. So far in 2025, investors who buy homes to flip or rent or rent out have made up about 30% of purchases of both existing and and newly built single family homes, the highest share on record, according to property analytics firm Kotality, which started tracking the sales 14 years ago. That's where my next guest, Democratic Senator Lisa Blunt Rochester of Delaware, is trying to step in. A bipartisan housing package she's been working on was marked up in an executive session of the Senate Banking, Housing and Urban Affairs Committee today.
- [32:46]
Alicia Menendez
I think about the fact that in my state, veterans have come to me and said, I'm concerned about losing my home. I think about the couple, the young couple who say I can't afford to even think about buying a house. But more importantly, I think about kids that I saw in school auditoriums when I was a congressperson, second graders who said that they were concerned about homelessness. And when I asked why, they said, because I have a friend who lives in their car. That's what this is about to me.
- [33:22]
Jen Psaki
Joining us now is Democratic Senator Lisa. Senator Lisa Blunt Rochester of Delaware. She is a member of the Banking, Housing and Urban Affairs Committee and the HELP Committee. Senator, thank you for being here. Tell us more about this bipartisan housing package.
- [33:37]
Alicia Menendez
Well, first of all, thank you, Jonathan. It is good to be with you. And I think, you know, even starting with the issue of affordability that you just brought up, I mean, we hear across the country that housing is unattainable for many families. And this has been decades in the making. And so today, the Senate Banking, Housing and Urban Affairs Committee, under the leadership of Senator Tim Scott and ranking member Elizabeth Warren, the whole committee voted on a major package of bills. Three of my bills were included in that package. And as I said, you know, this is really about the American people. And we want that dream to be not just reachable but within real reach for them. And so we have bills that will deal with issues of increasing the supply of housing. That's one of the reasons why housing costs are so high, because you're competing for a limited number. One of the bills that I have creates something called to accelerate that. It creates these things called pattern books. Here's an example to like deal with zoning issues? Yeah, to deal with zoning issues so that get a pre approved plan. That way you don't have to spend the time, you don't have to spend the money. We can increase that affordability. But this plan also, the package also dealt with issues of investing in affordable housing. It deals with cutting red tape. It deals with all the things that make us more competitive and able to build more housing in this country so that people can afford it. And this is across the board and so really excited because there aren't many times in your life where you get to do something and you say this will make a big difference in people's lives. And that's what the introduction, this first step in this housing, the Road to Housing act is all about.
- [35:31]
Jen Psaki
Senator, last week Donald Trump signed an executive order which removes homeless people from the streets of US Cities and put them in mental health institutions or drug treatment centers, centers without their consent. What's your reaction to that?
- [35:45]
Alicia Menendez
Well, you know, I mean, I'm not surprised. We look at the actions that this administration has done that are really inhumane. I mean, you know, as you talked about affordability and tariffs, I think about the fact that while this administration is giving major tax breaks to billionaires and the ultra rich and corporations, and with these tariffs, they're actually putting a tax on the American people. You know, we look at how folks have been treated, even the issue of cutting Medicaid. He said he wasn't going to cut Medicaid, wasn't going to touch it. They've actually gone about trying to rip Medicaid away from millions of Americans. He said he was going to do 90 deals on tariffs in 90 days. I don't think he's done 10. You know, and that's, I think, why this whole Epstein thing is also something that rings true for people because it's, you know, promises made and promises broken. And the reality is with the, with the families and the individuals that you just talked about, these are real people. These are real. These are our neighbors, our cousins, our brothers. And so we're going to continue to fight and stand up for those individuals as we do our work. In the Senate.
- [37:02]
Jen Psaki
Senator voters are giving the President poor marks on the economy. How, how is it feeling to people in Delaware?
- [37:09]
Alicia Menendez
Yeah, you know, people in Delaware, they come up to me and they tell me they're concerned. I mean, one of the reasons why I focused on housing was because it was one of the number one issues that I heard up and down the state. But again, as we look at the lack of a really cohesive strategy for how we're dealing with issues of the economy. It's why we're seeing what we're seeing. You know, it's one thing to think that he's been able to keep prices, you know, stable. He said he was going to lower the cost of goods. And we're not seeing that. We're not seeing that in home building. We're not seeing that with the tariffs. We're not seeing that across the board. And so Delawareans are feeling it just like the rest of the country. And again, that's why we've got to come up with these things that are not just about what Donald Trump isn't doing, but what our vision is for the future. And to me, housing is one of those areas that touches everybody. No matter where you come from, across this country, no matter what your persuasion, housing is something that needs to be affordable, needs to be attainable and is part of the American dream.
- [38:16]
Jen Psaki
Senator Lisa Blunt Rochester of the great state of Delaware, who's in the studio right next door to me, come say hi after when we go to the commercial break. Thank you very much for coming to the Last word. Coming up, the Trump administration is attempting to collect deeply personal data from the more than 41 million Americans who rely on food assistance. Twenty states are suing the Trump administration for this unprecedented use of Americans data. Washington State Attorney General Nick Brown, who has joined the lawsuit, will be our next guest. Donald Trump's administration is being sued yet again after demanding deeply personal data from the more than 41 million Americans who receive food assistance to qualify for SNAF, the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program. States already collect detailed personal information, but that data has remained within the states until now. The US Department of Agriculture is ordering states to hand over five years worth of information, including all household group members, names, dates of birth, Social Security numbers, residential and mailing addresses. And the newly updated guidance expands the request to include immigration status for every household member. States have until tomorrow to comply or risk losing federal funding. And this comes as the Associated Press reports that Immigration and Customs Enforcement officials are being granted access to the Personal data of 79 million Medicaid enrollees to track down undocumented immigrants. Washington state is one of 20 states suing the Trump administration. In a statement, Attorney General Nick Brown said, quote, the Trump administration's illegal and cruel action threatens the privacy and well being of our communities. Our office will take action to protect Washingtonians from yet more overreach by the Trump administration. Joining us now, Washington state's Attorney General Nick Brown. Attorney General Brown, thank you for coming to the last word. It seems like one effect of the Trump policy might be to deter people from applying for or taking assistance altogether. How do you see it?
- [40:35]
Lisa Blunt Rochester
Well, I think that's exactly right, and thank you for having me on. You know, during the campaign last year, President Trump talked about how he was going to target criminals in this country who were undocumented. But now he appears to be attacking people who are simply hungry and need help. And he's not going after the people that he said he would go after during the campaign and has promised to do so repeatedly. And it is really shameful that we're seeing the presidency and other portions of the federal government go after people who are in desperate need of assistance, not to take advantage or take illegal benefits, but simply to survive for them and their children. And that is why we joined this lawsuit with so many of our colleague states in the country.
- [41:13]
Jen Psaki
Well, I mean, you and your fellow attorneys general have been suing this administration seemingly from day one. Talk about the success Democratic attorneys general have in becoming such a key firewall against Trump's agenda.
- [41:28]
Lisa Blunt Rochester
Well, Jonathan, I've been the attorney General of Washington state now for six months, and we just filed our 30th lawsuit. And, you know, it feels unfortunate to me that so much of our work is dedicated towards protecting Americans from their president. But that truly is the moment that we're in. And it's not because we want to target Trump or necessarily even disagree with his politics, but what we're seeing is illegal conduct by the presidency, ignoring the separation of powers, ignoring state sovereignty, ignoring congressional approval. Approval, and really throwing that out and doing whatever the heck he wants to do. And as an attorney general, my oath to the state of Washington and to the United States Constitution is to defend the rule of law. And so we will continually stand up, defend our states, work collaboratively across the Democratic attorney generals to make sure that we are defending the rights and liberties of people. And when the president acts illegally and when that has an impact on people in my state, we will use every tool we have to defend their rights.
- [42:27]
Jen Psaki
You joined your fellow Democratic attorneys general for a town hall tonight. What did you hear?
- [42:33]
Lisa Blunt Rochester
Yeah, even though I'm the Washington attorney General, I'm actually in Chicago, Illinois, today, and joined four of my other colleagues to hear from people and listen to them, because behind every single one of our cases are the stories of people that have been impacted by this illegal conduct. And what we're seeing are communities that are terrified. And we heard from people who are working to support undocumented people. We heard from farmers today who have had their support cut off and programs that they were using to support people who are hungry, those programs cut off. We heard from educators who are fearful for the cuts that are having from their education system. But the good news for us as attorney general is that we've been largely successful on the initial stages of our cases of stopping some of these harmful actions. And just in Washington State, we've been able to protect over 10 billion of threatened funding cuts to our state. That's 10 billion just for my one state. And that's because what we've seen is judges recognizing that the president's acting illegally and that the strength of our cases is pretty good.
- [43:36]
Jen Psaki
Washington State Attorney General Nick Brown, thank you very much for coming to the Last Word.
- [43:41]
Lisa Blunt Rochester
Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.
- [43:43]
Jen Psaki
And we'll be right back. And more on our breaking news from earlier in the program. Here's a live look at things right now on Waikiki beach in Honolulu. The US west coast is under a tsunami watch and there are tsunami warnings for Alaska's Aleutian Islands and the entire state of Hawaii after a massive magnitude 8.8 earthquake struck off the east coast of Russia. The first waves could hit Hawaii just after 1am Eastern. The governor, Josh Green, plans to hold a press conference shortly to tell residents how they should prepare. NBC News reports that the Tsunami Warning center said waves of 1 to 3 yards above tide level were possible along some coastal areas of Hawaii, Japan and even as far away as Chile. Stay with MSNBC for updates on this breaking story. That is tonight's last word. Hey, everyone, it's Chris Hayes. This week on my podcast, why Is this Happening? Former senior policy advisor at the National Economic Council, Aya Ibrahim.
- [44:47]
Jonathan Capehart
I don't think that any American is.
- [44:48]
Jen Psaki
Going to bed being worried about who.
- [44:50]
Michael Steele
Has the most compute, who has the.
- [44:51]
Jen Psaki
Highest number of GPUs, US or China. That's not what people are worried about. They're worried about housing, healthcare, education, job opportunities. So to the extent that AI is either an enabler or an obstacle to.
- [45:04]
Alicia Menendez
Those things, that is what I think.
- [45:07]
Michael Steele
They will end up worrying about.
- [45:08]
Jen Psaki
That's this week on why is this Happening? Search for why is this Happening? Wherever you're listening right now, and follow.