Top official out at Social Security after a clash with Musk’s DOGE

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell Episode Title: Top Official Out at Social Security After a Clash with Musk’s DOGE
Release Date: February 18, 2025
Host: Lawrence O'Donnell, MSNBC

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Introduction

In this gripping episode of The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell, host Lawrence O'Donnell delves into a seismic shift within the Social Security Administration, triggered by a high-profile clash with Elon Musk’s newly formed Department of Government Efficiency (DOGE). Drawing from his extensive experience in politics and media, O'Donnell unpacks the ramifications of Musk's interference on one of America's cornerstone social programs.

Elon Musk’s Intervention in Social Security

The episode opens with a bombshell revelation from opinion columnist E.J. Dionne, who details Elon Musk's unprecedented takeover of the Social Security Administration (SSA). Musk's DOGE has disrupted the historically reliable Social Security payments, leaving 71 million Americans uncertain about their next check.

E.J. Dionne [00:50]: “Elon Musk's illegal specialty when he takes over agencies of the federal government is to stop payments... Social Security payments are not guaranteed.”

Dionne underscores the gravity of the situation by highlighting Musk's pattern of disrupting federal agencies, emphasizing the unprecedented nature of this intervention.

Implications for Social Security and IRS

Dionne further explains the structural inefficiencies introduced by Musk, pointing out the SSA's remarkable efficiency with only 58,000 employees managing payments for millions.

E.J. Dionne [00:50]: “Only 58,000 people are processing and crediting the tax payments of 170 million workers every week in this country.”

He draws a stark contrast between the SSA and the Internal Revenue Service (IRS), noting Musk's prior influence on the IRS, which jeopardizes tax enforcement and favors the wealthy.

Reactions from Politicians and Experts

Senator Amy Klobuchar of Minnesota joins the discussion, articulating concerns over Musk's authority and the White House's stance on his role.

Senator Amy Klobuchar [14:42]: “I do think it's worth being very clear eyed, very realistic about what's going on here.”

Annie Lynn, a former USAID worker, provides a poignant perspective on the human impact of Musk's actions, particularly in the realm of international aid.

Annie Lynn [25:24]: “Malaria still kills 600,000 people each year... This is the greatest act of cruelty he's witnessed in his lifetime.”

These insights reveal bipartisan anxiety over Musk's unchecked power and the potential erosion of essential public services.

Additional Government Agency Cuts

The conversation broadens to include Musk's influence over other critical agencies, such as the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). Dionne highlights Musk's strategy of undermining these institutions to cut federal spending, often at the expense of public safety and health.

E.J. Dionne [15:20]: “Elon Musk inside the Internal Revenue Service is also very bad... he wants to make sure that the Internal Revenue Service cannot possibly audit tax returns as complex as his and other billionaires.”

These moves signal a systematic attempt to dismantle key governmental functions, raising alarms about the future of American governance.

Human Impact and Expert Opinions

Annie Lynn elaborates on the immediate consequences of these cuts, particularly in international health initiatives.

Annie Lynn [26:49]: “Malaria still kills 600,000 people a year... planning things like distributions of bed nets and preventive medicine for children has a precise timeline that will fall apart.”

Her testimony underscores the tangible human costs of Musk’s policies, especially for vulnerable populations worldwide.

Lorne Michaels and Saturday Night Live Tribute

In a surprising yet poignant interlude, the podcast shifts briefly to honor Lorne Michaels on the 50th anniversary of Saturday Night Live (SNL). Adam Sandler delivers a heartfelt tribute, highlighting Michaels' enduring legacy in entertainment.

Adam Sandler [28:59]: “30 years of Downey, 45 years of Lorne... 50 years of standing on home base waving good night and goodbye.”

E.J. Dionne interviews Susan Morrison, author of The Man Who Invented Saturday Night Live, shedding light on Michaels' behind-the-scenes influence and the challenges of sustaining such a landmark show.

Susan Morrison [34:36]: “Lorne Michaels knows about the show is that it's like the Yankees or the Dow. It goes up, it goes down, and it exists in a permanent state of flux and regeneration.”

This segment serves as a reflective pause, contrasting the stability of creative institutions like SNL with the upheaval within federal agencies.

Conclusion and Future Implications

As the episode draws to a close, O'Donnell emphasizes the looming crisis posed by Musk's DOGE and similar initiatives, urging listeners to remain vigilant.

Senator Amy Klobuchar [22:45]: “We're seeing a really radical effort to change the American system of government.”

E.J. Dionne and Alex Wagner offer a sobering outlook on the administration's trajectory, predicting increased opposition and citizen engagement in response to these authoritarian maneuvers.

Alex Wagner [19:35]: “People have reason to be scared about what they're doing at the FAA... they are going to face a kind of opposition we haven't faced yet.”

The episode concludes with a call to action, highlighting the need for public awareness and political accountability to safeguard essential services from corporate overreach.

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Notable Quotes Highlights

• E.J. Dionne [00:50]: “Elon Musk’s illegal specialty... Social Security payments are not guaranteed.”
• Senator Amy Klobuchar [14:42]: “I do think it's worth being very clear eyed...”
• Annie Lynn [25:24]: “This is the greatest act of cruelty he's witnessed in his lifetime.”
• E.J. Dionne [15:20]: “Elon Musk inside the Internal Revenue Service is also very bad...”
• Adam Sandler [28:59]: “50 years of standing on home base waving good night and goodbye.”
• Susan Morrison [34:36]: “Lorne Michaels knows about the show is that it's like the Yankees or the Dow...”

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Key Takeaways

• Unprecedented Intervention: Elon Musk's DOGE has destabilized the SSA, threatening the reliability of Social Security payments for millions.
• Systemic Threats: Beyond the SSA, Musk's influence extends to the IRS, FAA, and CDC, undermining federal functions and public trust.
• Political Alarm: Bipartisan concerns are rising over Musk's unchecked authority, with significant implications for American governance.
• Human Cost: Policy disruptions are directly impacting vulnerable populations, both domestically and internationally.
• Cultural Contrast: The tribute to Lorne Michaels serves as a reminder of the enduring value of stable, creative leadership amidst political chaos.
• Call to Action: The episode underscores the urgency for public engagement and political accountability to counteract corporate overreach in federal institutions.

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This comprehensive summary captures the essence of the episode, detailing the critical issues discussed, the perspectives of various stakeholders, and the broader implications for American society and governance. The inclusion of notable quotes with timestamps provides authenticity and depth, offering listeners a clear and engaging overview of the podcast's key themes.

Transcript

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Stay connected with the MSNBC app bringing you breaking news and analysis anytime, anywhere. Watch your favorite shows live, read live blogs and in depth essays and listen to coverage as it unfolds. Go beyond the what to understand the why. Download the app [e-mail] app MSNBC presents a new original podcast hosted by Jen Psaki. Each week she and her guests explore how the Democratic Party is facing this political moment and where it's headed next.

[Senator Amy Klobuchar]

There's probably both messaging and policy issues, but as you look to kind of where the Democratic Party is, do you think it's more a messaging issue, more a policy issue?

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

The Blueprint with Jen Psaki subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts for ad free listening and bonus content.

[E.J. Dionne]

Well, the breaking news tonight is that Elon Musk is now inside Social Security. And so for the first time in American history, Social Security payments are not guaranteed. Since the delivery of the first Social Security check in 1940 to the first Social Security recipient, Ida May Fuller, Social Security checks have never been a day late or a dollar short. Not once. But Elon Musk's illegal specialty when he takes over agencies of the federal government is to stop payments. And so these 71 million people who receive Social Security payments every month for the first time in history can no longer be sure if the next payment is coming. Michelle King was the Acting Commissioner of Social Security until either yesterday or today. Rumors started reaching me early this afternoon from people with expert knowledge of the workings of Social Security that the Musk coup at Social Security was underway. There is a line of succession for acting commissioners of Social Security. When a Commissioner of Social Security leaves office before a new commissioner has been confirmed by the Senate, then the Deputy Commissioner shall be the Acting Commissioner according to that written line of succession. And that is exactly how Michelle King, who has been with the Social Security Administration since 1994, took office. But when Michelle King was forced out of that office, the line of succession was violated and Donald Trump appointed another Social Security employee, Leland Dudek, as the Acting Commissioner of Social Security after Leland Dudek posted favorable comments about Elon Musk's so called Department of Government Efficiency on social media. Lelandudek was a senior advisor at Social Security for the Office of Program Integrity. That means he was an IT guy. The IT guy is now the acting Commissioner of Social Security, the single biggest item in the federal budget, way bigger than the Defense Department. There was no reason to believe that this day could ever come. Yes, Republicans opposed the creation of Social Security in 1935 by President Franklin Delano Roosevelt, following the design for the program created by the first woman member of the cabinet, Secretary of Labor Frances Perkins. Republicans insisted that it was out of control socialism and unconstitutional. Francis Perkins designed the Social Security system with its dedicated tax, payroll tax, funding directly from our workers paychecks in such a way that once it was enacted and in place, Franklin Roosevelt said, quote, no damn politician can ever scrap my Social Security program. Democrats had overwhelming majorities in the House and the Senate in 1935 and could pass the Social Security act without Republican support. But when the final votes came, several Republicans in the House and the Senate then joined Democrats when they saw how popular Social Security was even before it existed. The first Republican president elected after the creation of Social Security, former Gen. Dwight D. Eisenhower, who conquered Germany in World War II, said at the end of the second year of his presidency, 14 years after the first Social Security check was issued, in a letter to his brother, quote, should any political party attempt to abolish Social Security, unemployment insurance and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. In that same letter, President Eisenhower referred to some rich right wing Republicans who wanted to end Social Security in the 1950s. He called them a tiny splinter group and said their number is negligible and they are stupid. They are stupid. That is the clear wisdom of Dwight D. Eisenhower, speaking from the grave about what is happening at Social Security tonight and the person who is doing it. Elon Musk. 58,000 people work at Social Security. Only 58,000 people. That is a hyper efficient agency. That is approximately one worker at Social Security for each million people who receive benefits from Social Security. That means that those 58,000 people are also processing and crediting the tax payments of 170 million workers every week in this country. There is no entity in the history of private enterprise that is as efficient as the Social Security administration with its 58,000 employees. Donald Trump promised in the presidential campaign that he would not cut Social Security, but Elon Musk did not make that promise. Elon Musk has no other mission in the government other than cutting payments. And now he's inside Social Security. Franklin Delano Roosevelt was right. No damn politician could ever scrap his Social Security program. But Elon Musk is not a damn politician. Elon Musk isn't worried about whether he'll get reelected. Elon Musk isn't worried about the future of the Republican Party. And Elon Musk doesn't know what Social Security actually is. He doesn't know what it actually does in his appearance in the Oval Office last week, dominating the President, speaking twice as long as the President. Elon Musk lied about Social Security. Elon Musk did not say one true thing about Social Security in the Oval Office. Elon Musk told the lie that he found current recipients of Social Security who were born 150 years ago in 1875. That was a lie, which is why he has not produced the name of any of those 150-year-old Social Security recipients. Later, Social Security experts explained that the date 1875 was used in the original computer software at Social Security as a placeholder for missing birth dates. That year was deliberately picked at the time for a variety of reasons, including that obviously no payments would be approved with the year year 1875 identifying a Social Security file. Elon Musk has not said another word about the 150 year olds because that's the way he conducts his raids on public information and public truth. He tells his lie, it gets proven to be a lie, and then he never mentions it again. I told you it was a lie the night Elon Musk said it in the Oval Office. Most Elon Musk followers only hear the first lie. It doesn't get more serious than this. Elon Musk inside Social Security. Elon Musk inside the Internal Revenue Service is also very bad. Elon Musk inside the Internal Revenue Service was the worst thing we knew about what Elon Musk was doing before today when he got inside Social Security. The Internal Revenue Service is also one of the hyper efficient federal government agencies. By far, it is the agency which makes money for the federal government. The truth is the IRS costs zero. In reality, it costs zero. It has an annual budget of $12.3 billion, but it collects annual revenue of $5.3 trillion, the most revenue collected in the world. Every single federal worker at the Internal Revenue Service is making a profit, a huge profit for the United States of America. In dollar terms alone, IRS workers are by far the most valuable workers in the government. But the fewer people who work at the irs, the harder it is to enforce tax law. And so Elon Musk, who already has a lower income tax rate than your average doctor, wants to make sure that the Internal Revenue Service cannot possibly audit tax returns as complex as his and other billionaires. He will try to fire tens of thousands of people at the Internal Revenue Service, especially IRS agents involved in the most sophisticated and complex tax returns like Elon Musk's. Leading off our discussion tonight is Democratic Senator Amy Klobuchar of Minnesota. She's a member of the Senate Judiciary Committee, Rules Committee and the Commerce Committee. And Senator Klobuchar, another element of the breaking news at this hour is the White House saying in a court filing now that Elon Musk has nothing to do with with the Department of Government efficiency in writing to a judge. The White House is saying in his role as a senior adviser to the President, Mr. Musk has no greater authority than any other White House senior advisor. Like other White house senior advisers, Mr. Musk has no. Let me get to page two here. Has no actual or formal authority to make government decisions himself. Mr. Musk is an employee of the White House. He is not an employee of US Doge. Mr. Musk is not the US Doge service administrator. So, Senator, there's that.

[Annie Lynn]

I think that's news to everyone, Lawrence. So thanks for breaking it. I was thinking as I was hearing you methodically go through what happened here with Social Security, 71 million Americans on Social Security. For 40% of them, it is their income. That's it. It is what is the difference between them and basically being homeless. And when I listened to this, I kept thinking this career official, Michelle King, that's her last name, right? Michelle King, who refused to give him this access, 30 year employee and she ends up stepping down because of the other King, the guy who thinks he's king of our country. And that is Elon Musk, who was not elected to do that, who has so many conflicts because of the major multimillion dollar contracts that he has with the government. And so I hope, and I know there's already lawsuits that have been filed on this that once again, just like with the IRS data, the court, a court will find that, no, you can't just start rifling around rummaging through people's Social Security data. If you think there's Frau, then why did you fire all the inspector generals? Okay, if you think there's something we can do here, then let's do this the right way, according to the law and not what they are doing in agency after agency.

[E.J. Dionne]

So Donald Trump campaigned promising absolutely will not cut Social Security, will not cut Medicare, but will not cut Social Security. By the way, the first Republican candidate to ever do that. Most other Republican candidates for president always wanted to keep alive the budgetary option of cutting Social Security and Medicare. So they're always very careful about their length. Language are up. Not Trump. He campaigned as left on that subject as any Democrat candidate for president ever has. And now here's Elon Musk going into Social Security. He only has one mission, which is cutting spending. That's his only mission. And the only way you cut spending at Social Security is you take money away from the people who expect to receive it.

[Annie Lynn]

And Lawrence, you look at what he campaigned on that was cutting costs for people, not adding costs for people in order to give tax cuts to his billionaires. And that is exactly what you're seeing. They're looking for money everywhere. And when I look at, say, the Medicare negotiation for prescription drugs that even the Biden administration taking this law that Senator Sanders and I and others have worked on, that would save 1.5 billion in just the 10 drugs they negotiated already in out of pocket costs for seniors, they won't commit to doing that again. They are undermining those programs with the budget that has been suggested in the House of Representatives. And so you look at what they're doing. Totally the opposite. Corruption's up, chaos is up. And yes, prices are up for Americans. And that's why we are standing up against this effort to basically put their tax cuts for billionaires on the backs of working people, whether it's Social Security or whether it is prescription drugs or whether it is housing or childcare.

[E.J. Dionne]

Senator Amy Klobuchar, thank you very much for starting off our coverage tonight.

[Annie Lynn]

Great to be on. Thanks, Lawrence.

[E.J. Dionne]

Coming up, we'll be joined by a former USAID worker who has been forced out of work by Elon Musk. And next, we'll consider the other Musk attacks on public safety, including at the Federal Aviation Administration. That's next.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

It's President Trump's first 100 days and MSNBC's Alex Wagner will be covering it all from the front lines.

[E.J. Dionne]

What issue matters to you the most?

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Join her as she travels the country to talk to the people at the center of the president's policies and promises.

[E.J. Dionne]

Do you think now that he's pardoned everybody, he can count on this group of people again?

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

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[Senator Amy Klobuchar]

I do think it's worth being very clear eyed, very realistic about what's going on here.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

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[E.J. Dionne]

Donald Trump's response to a commercial plane crash occurring just days into his second term in office has been to lay off workers at the faa. NBC News reports that a union spokesperson said close to 300 of its members received termination notices over the weekend and those affected worked as maintenance mechanics, aeronautical information specialists, environmental protection specialists, aviation safety assistants, as well as management and program assistance. This comes after this afternoon's crash landing involving a Delta Airlines flight that was landing in Toronto. Eighteen people were injured after the plane overturned while landing. The cause is still being investigated. The Trump administration is also trying to unfire some federal workers who deal with the safety of our nuclear weapons stockpile. In an email sent to employees at the National Nuclear Security Administration and obtained by NBC News, officials wrote the termination letters for some National Nuclear Security Administration probationary employees are being rescinded, but we do not have a good way to get in touch with those personnel. The Trump administration on Saturday terminated hundreds of employees at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention because who wants to control and prevent disease, including fellows responsible for key public health roles, according to two sources at the agency who spoke to NBC News on the condition of anonymity out of concern over, of course, retaliation. The Associated Press was first to report, quote, the Trump administration fired 20 immigration judges without explanation, a union official said Saturday, amid sweeping moves to shrink the size of the federal government. Joining now is E.J. deon, an opinion columnist for the Washington Post and a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution. He is a government professor at Georgetown University. And E.J. i want to refer back to FDR's famous quote about Social Security, no damn politician will be able to take it away. Well, turns out that's not who's taking it away. It's Elon Musk.

[Alex Wagner]

And Elon Musk, I read that filing in the break that you thought Elon Musk, who doesn't even head something called Doge. So on what authority actually is he asking? I think what you're seeing here is something that Jim Himes talked about on your show a couple of weeks ago, which I think is the perfect statement about the Trump administration so far. He said it's a perfect mixture of brutality and incompetence. And I think that's what you're seeing in the case of the faa. What you're seeing on these nuclear, on the nuclear story, on the firing and then botched attempt to rehire these folks at the nuclear agency. What's amazing here is that Doge casts itself as being about government efficiency. This is about government inefficienc. It's not like past efforts to clean up the government. And to go back to the FDR question, I guess Trump agreed with Roosevelt that a politician can't end Social Security. So I guess he has delegated that to Elon Musk.

[E.J. Dionne]

Yeah. So this filing with a judge saying that Elon Musk has nothing to do with the Department of Government Efficiency is judges don't like to be lied to, and they have. That judge has a right to take judicial notice of information. Beyond the filings. There's all this information in public writing by Trump and by Musk saying he is indeed the head of this Department of Government Efficiency along with Vivek Ramaswamy at one point. There have been public statements. There was Donald Trump saying it in the Oval Office last week. It's clearly a legal attempt to get Elon Musk out of the lawsuits, to literally just excise him from the lawsuits, suing over all of this activity.

[Alex Wagner]

I think that that's clearly the effort here. And, you know, I think that the Trump administration eventually gets caught up in its own cuteness. He has gotten caught up before. We are acting right now as if Trump is all powerful, as if he didn't lose the election in 2020, as if he didn't lose the house in 2018. And yes, all this stuff is happening, and he's asserting all this illegal power, which is very hard to hold accountable, especially when Republicans are unwilling to do it. But I think what he and Musk are doing now is actually going to create the kind of opposition we haven't seen yet. People have reason to be scared about what they're doing at the faa, have reason to be scared about this incompetence with various nuclear programs around the country. And they're sure as heck worried about their secrecy, their privacy when Trump, when Musk is trying to get hold of records both at Social Security and at the irs. I think that they are going to face a kind of opposition in the coming weeks that they haven't faced yet. And a lot of people are going to get engaged with these issues who haven't been engaged yet.

[E.J. Dionne]

E.J. deon, thank you very much for joining our discussion tonight.

[Alex Wagner]

Real good to be with you. Thanks.

[E.J. Dionne]

Coming up, the very best advice I ever got about doing this program was in an elevator in the building after work here one night when I was lucky enough to run into Lorne Michaels. I'll share Lorne's words of wisdom about live TV doing live TV later in this program. But first, Annie Lynn, who worked for USAID on Fighting Malaria, will join us next.

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[Lawrence O'Donnell]

To upgrade your selling Today, MSNBC presents Main justice. Each week on their podcast, veteran lawyers Andrew Weissman and Mary McCord break down the latest developments inside the Trump administration's Department of Justice.

[Susan Morrison]

The administration doesn't necessarily want to be.

[E.J. Dionne]

Question on any of its policy.

[Susan Morrison]

I think what we are seeing is.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Project 2025 in action.

[E.J. Dionne]

This is it coming to fruition.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Main justice subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple podcasts for ad free listening and bonus content. The first 100 days bills are passed, executive orders are signed and presidencies are defined. And for Donald Trump's first 100 days, Rachel Maddow is on MSNBC five nights a week.

[Senator Amy Klobuchar]

Now is the time, so we're gonna do it.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Providing her unique insight and analysis during this critical time.

[Senator Amy Klobuchar]

How do we strategically align ourselves to this moment of information, this moment of transition in our country?

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

The Rachel Maddow show weeknights at 9pm Eastern on MSNBC.

[E.J. Dionne]

Last night, 60 Minutes focused on people at the United States Agency for International Aid who were fired by Elon Musk.

[Lorne Michaels]

People are really scared. I think that, you know, 12 days ago people knew where their next paycheck was coming from. They knew how they were going to pay for their kids daycare, their medical bills and then all gone overnight.

[E.J. Dionne]

They're not looking for competency. They're not looking for if you're good at your job. They're looking for peer loyalty tests and if you don't give it, you will be punished.

[Lorne Michaels]

And they had to leave the building. And these are folks who had decades and decades of public service serving USAID across administrations from George Bush to Obama to the first Trump administration, and they were never able to walk back in the building again.

[Alex Wagner]

There was no process.

[E.J. Dionne]

No one explained to them why they were being relieved.

[Lorne Michaels]

To my knowledge, they received an email and then if they didn't leave the building, they were escorted out of the building.

[E.J. Dionne]

Annie Lynn wrote this in a guest column for the Bozeman Daily Chronicle in Montana. My job for the past six years has been with the US President's Malaria Initiative, or PMI. Malaria still kills around 600,000 people each year, mostly children under five. But in the 30 countries where PMI works, the malaria mortality rate has been reduced by half since the initiative was launched by George W. Bush. This is not a show of if this is not a show of American strength, I don't know what is. Malaria is very seasonal. As mosquitoes flourish during the rainy season, planning things like distributions of bed nets and preventive medicine for children has a precise timeline that will fall apart, making this work less effective if it even happens at all. And children, children of God, will die unnecessarily. Joining us now is Annie Lynn, former USAID senior Community Health advisor for the President's Malaria Initiative. Thank you very much for joining us tonight. What have we lost, particularly in the fight against malaria?

[Annie Lynn]

Thanks so much for having me. What have we lost? Well, malaria kills children. Like you said, malaria still kills 600,000 people a year, most of whom are children under five. It's also particularly dangerous for pregnant women. And so with this work even halting, even if we are just talking about a freeze, rainy seasons are coming. And all of the work to plan the campaigns to distribute seasonal malaria, chemo prevention, preventive medication for young children, or for bed nets to be distributed, or if a pregnant woman is going to a clinic because she wants to get a net or because she's hoping to get preventive treatment like she's used to, that's going to all stop. And so it already has stopped. The planning that takes so much precision. These are logistics for really hard to reach places that take an immense effort of logistics, planning, all of that has paused. If you think longer term our fight against anti malarial resistance, all of the monitoring we're doing of the effectiveness of antimalarial, all of that has stopped. And this has been an emerging threat. There's a new invasive mosquito that we're no longer monitoring in Africa. So these threats that we were already really worried about, now we have no idea what's going to be happening. Even if things resume. And we hope that they will. We hope that funding will start to move so that there's actually something to these waivers that people are talking about. Network will actually be able to start.

[E.J. Dionne]

Yeah. When I Go to Africa. I always take malaria pills. I take them two days before arriving in the malaria zone, throughout the time I'm in the malaria zone, and then for a week afterwards. And I just, I can't imagine going into malaria zones like Malawi, where the entire country is a malaria zone without that protection. And to imagine that we are taking the kinds of protection we know that works away from people who actually live there is a first in terms of American international cruelty.

[Annie Lynn]

Absolutely. I mean, I think this is. A colleague said that this is the greatest act of cruelty he's witnessed in his lifetime. And I agree. I just don't. And I think that if Americans really were to think about what happened, no matter who they voted for, to think about what we are doing right now, just antimalarial medication that can save children's lives, wherever that is in the process of getting to these hard to reach places, that has stopped. The supply chain has stopped. We cannot be okay with this as a country. No matter what you think about foreign aid in the long term. I think that we really cannot justify in any way that this needs any kind of a 90 day review process. The fact that it was stopped after Secretary Rubio had actually talked about the importance of the fight against malaria in his confirmation hearing. This was just so unexpected and it continues to be just so staggering every time I think about another implication.

[E.J. Dionne]

Yeah, Marco Rubio used to be a champion of USAID until Donald Trump told him not to. Annie Lynn, thank you very much for your work and thank you for joining us tonight.

[Annie Lynn]

Thanks so much.

[E.J. Dionne]

Thank you. Coming up last night, NBC went live for three hours in a loving celebration of Saturday Night Live and the miracle worker, Lorne Michaels, who created the show and has kept it running in this building for 50 years. We'll show you some of that when Susan Morrison, the author of the beautifully writt new book Lorne, joins us next.

[Adam Sandler]

Everyone in this room has something in common. All of our lives were changed by the show. Everyone in this room has something else in common. None of us were allowed to use the little bathroom in Lorne's office.

[E.J. Dionne]

Adam Sandler's funny and deeply moving musical tribute to the 50 years of Saturday Night Live on last night's 50th anniversary show, of course, began with the person who created it all and is solely responsible for keeping Saturday Night Live on television for a remarkable 50 years. Lorne Michaels, the television miracle worker who is the subject of Susan Morrison's beautifully written and observed new book, the man who Invented Saturday Night Live. It is one of Those masterful pieces of writing that doesn't require an interest in the subject. If you've never seen Saturday Night Live, the book is still relentlessly fascinating. If you've ever worked in an office, for example, there is much for you to learn from one of the greatest practitioners of office politics in the world, Lorne Michaels. There are surprises about your favorite cast members. And there is the young man named Lorne, struggling and often considering himself a failure in show business before he created Saturday Night Live. It is the best biography I have ever read of a living person because Lorne Michaels so willingly and often self critically turns over his cards in discussions with Susan Morrison that are more revealing than any interview he's ever given. The book is a cultural history of the last 70 years of North American entertainment, very much including Canada, where Lorne Michaels grew up. My best friend Jim Downey, who I have known since the first week of college, went to work at Saturday Night Live in the second season. And by hanging around with Jim and our friend Saturday Night Live writer Al Franken at their workplace during my unemployed years and frequently lunging for the free food at the Saturday Night Live after parties, I met Lorne Michaels, who gracefully accepted me into the extended entourage of Saturday Night Live. In those days, I never expected to work in this building, certainly not in the news business, in the same building with Saturday Night Live. And one night 14 years ago, after the first several months of doing this show, when I was headed home at about 11:30, the elevator doors opened and there was Lorne Michaels alone in the elevator heading home to right away, right away he started telling me everything he liked about my show, which shocked me that he was even watching it. And he was detailed so I could tell he was said everything he liked about it and everything he liked about what I was doing. And I didn't understand it. I didn't understand what he was saying because he was describing something that I could not see. I could not see the show the way he could see my show and I could not see my work the way he could see my work. And I told him I wanted to have a crawl at the bottom of the screen saying, you're watching an unrehearsed first draft. Because both of those things offended me. I had never shown my first draft scripts to anyone. In my Hollywood days of writing TV drama episodes, I used to give my scripts to Emmy winning actors and without changing a word, they would make every line I wrote better. And now I was stuck out there doing my scripts straight to camera without even time to rehearse. And I blurted all this out and show business shorthand to Loren in that elevator ride down of only about five floors in Rockefeller Center. And his eyes seemed sympathetic, but he wasn't. He told me that I was wrong about everything that I was worried about. And then he said the most important thing anyone has ever said to me about doing this show, doing live television. Lawrence said, we don't do it because we're ready. We do it because it's 11:30 last night. Adam Sandler's wonderful song began with Lorne Michaels and ended with Lorne Michaels.

[Adam Sandler]

30 years of Downey, 45 years of Lorne, six years of our boy Farley, five of our buddies, nor 50 years of one of us getting to say, live from New York, It's Saturday night. 50 years of standing on home base waving good night and goodbye. 50 years of the best times of our lives. All right.

[E.J. Dionne]

Thank you, Lorne. Joining us now is Susan Morrison, the articles editor at the New Yorker. Her wonderful new book, the man who Invented Saturday Night Live, is out tomorrow. I'm one of the lucky ones who has it now, Susan. I love it beyond description. The writing is so beautiful. Beautiful. It's so wonderful. It's your first book, and, you know, we're always hoping our friends with first books deliver. This is. And you've been on this for years?

[Susan Morrison]

A decade.

[E.J. Dionne]

Yeah. 10 years.

[Susan Morrison]

Yeah. Thank you for that nice introduction. This is the first time I've thought about the book as workplace comedy. But you're absolutely right. That's what it is. It's the office in hardcovers.

[E.J. Dionne]

And I have to say, you know, I knew you were working on it for about 10 years, and I would run into you over at SNL at different times, and you start to get concerned for a book author who's in around year five or so because there's some quicksand there that some people never get out of. And so I was never going to say anything because I've been very late on books myself. But here's what I think. I don't know how you could have written this book in less than 10 years. It is so wonderfully detailed in all these exquisite ways that are unique to your observational powers.

[Susan Morrison]

Well, you know, right after the 40th anniversary of the show, I started thinking about how no one has had more influence on how so many generations of Americans laugh and what we think is funny than Lorne Michaels. And the idea that he's been able to sustain it over these decades is remarkable. I thought it would be really interesting to try to get close up and see how he makes that happen. Now, as you know, because you know Jim Downey, as I do, to the inside comedy world, Lauren has long been this object of obsession. The wizard of Oz, Obi Wan Kenobi, Jay Gatsby.

[E.J. Dionne]

But I mean, every one of them has spoken as many words as in this book about Lorne Michaels. I mean, Jim, in his lifetime, has said at least this much.

[Susan Morrison]

This is another reason why it took a long time to write the book is that the reporting took too long. Every time you sit down to talk to somebody about Lorne Michaels, they go off for hours.

[E.J. Dionne]

You had such fantastic sources, from Jim to Conan O'Brien to Jon Hamm to everyone, Tina Fey, everyone. Insightful.

[Susan Morrison]

Not only is Lauren a very intelligent guy and a great talker who doesn't usually talk to the press, which was my benefit here, but everyone he hires is very smart and articulate and funny. So every one of these people and I talk to all of them is a journalist's dream. Conan O'Brien told me, if you ever bump into an SNL person, you could be talking about Prime Minister, former Prime Minister Theresa May, or healthcare, but within five minutes, you're gonna be talking about Lorne. Michael buying flip flops on St. Barts. You know, all roads lead to Lorne. And so my idea was to try to get inside this obsession. You know, why they're all so curious about him, why they want to please him so desperately and help explain that to the wider comedy world.

[E.J. Dionne]

And you take us through that work week at snl. The Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, how each day is different. Each day becomes more difficult than the one before. You also take us through the beginning stories of Lorne Michaels that begins in Canada. And I want to put up a picture of Lorne and Rosie Schuster. This is when they're in high school. This is at a friend in 1964. This is a friends sweet 16 party. This photo's in the book. I've never seen photos like this of Lorne Michaels. So one of the. I just was so engrossed with the beginning chapters of his life, his childhood, and losing his father at a young age. Taking on Rosie Schuster's father, who was a professional comedian. And I didn't realize that I didn't connect Rosie Shuster to that.

[Susan Morrison]

One of the things that you're dealing with, if you're a biographer, is that once your character walks onto the world stage, it's kind of open season. People know a fair amount about Lorne in the years since 1975. For me, the most fun part was excavating the years before that because no one knows anything about him. And in fact, he did. Very interesting. The seeds of SNL sprung on the know, plywood stage of his summer camp. Yeah, but.

[E.J. Dionne]

But he's the guy putting on a play at summer camp.

[Susan Morrison]

And he was so famous at it that kids in summer camps in Michigan knew about Lorne Lipowitz, the great camp impresario. But my favorite part of the research was dealing with the 10 years that Lorne bounced around LA before SNL, where he worked on one cruddy cheeseball variety show after another. The Perry Como Christmas Special, the Beautiful Phyllis Diller Show. But what's interesting is that these things were duds and they were largely written by guys who were in their 50s and 60s, who were refuges, refugees from radio. So Lauren thought, oh my God, television is a dead end. But, you know, almost like a character out of Dickens, he no matter how grim the situation, he always learned something from it. He always took a lesson from it. 1 An example of this is when he was working for the Beautiful Phyllis Diller show in the 60s. And I wish we had a shot of Phyllis Diller. But the audience then wasn't ready to see a woman, especially an abrasive woman, running a show. They found her off putting. So the producers had this idea. Let's have Phyllis just sit down and have a kind of fireside chat with some of the guests to warm her up to the audience. It was Lauren's job to interview those guests and supply the questions. Well, there's a direct line between those Phyllis Diller interviews and the opening monologue of snl. The monologue at SNL performs the same function. You have a movie star coming onto this TV show, doesn't know what he's doing, but by just chatting amiably with the audience, everyone is kind of put at ease.

[E.J. Dionne]

These also. I'm so glad the book reminded me of the Valley that Warren's career hit.

[Susan Morrison]

Oh, yeah.

[E.J. Dionne]

After he left, he did the first five years of Saturday Night Live and then they left, which was normal until television. People didn't stay with TV shows. They were going on to greater things. They were all going to go into the movie business. Lorne was going into the movie business. And then that doesn't go quite as planned. And five years later he's back and he has a failed TV show in the meantime. And then he's back running Saturday Night Live. And his first year back is terrible. And what I Love about the book is I had forgotten how bad that first year back was. And so what you're seeing is this guy who for the last several decades now has been perceived as a non stop king. He had some rough periods and some losses that he had to climb back up from.

[Susan Morrison]

He had some big bumps. You know, he left after the first five years thinking he was going to enter his Mike Nichols period. He was going to be a Hollywood auteur. That didn't work. So he realized, you know, his true calling was doing live television. So he happily went back, but he was anxious that he didn't want to make it too Baby Boomer ish. He made a massive mistake in hiring all these young kids from John Hughes movies. That was a disastrous season. Our friend Al Franken told me that when he was in the Senate, Marco Rubio used to come up to him on the Senate floor and say, al, what happened that season? I mean, everyone noticed that Ezana was tanking. But then of course, the show is constantly, again and again like a phoenix rising from the ashes. The next year he picked a fantastic cast of Dana Carvey, Phil Hartman, Jan Hooks, and it was off again. But, you know, the thing that Lorne Michaels knows about the show is that it's like the Yankees or the Dow. It goes up, it goes down, and it exists in a permanent state of flux and regeneration, much like the city that is its home.

[E.J. Dionne]

You know the other thing he said to me that night when he said, you know, we don't do it because we're ready. By the way, that quote's in the book, as you know.

[Susan Morrison]

Oh, it is, yeah.

[E.J. Dionne]

Yeah. Cause he's told other people that a lot of times we don't do it because we're ready. We. Because it's 11:30 and they were walking out the door, but we're up in the sidewalk. He then says, and you get to try it again tomorrow night. And that's his attitude toward SNL episodes. No matter how good or bad this went, there's next week. Susan Morrison, we do not have the time to do justice to your work in this amazing book or do justice to Lauren as a subject. This is short form tv. Thank you for this book. Thank you very much for joining us tonight. This is really a jewel of a book. I am so proud of you.

[Susan Morrison]

Thank you so much. It's really fun talking about it.

[E.J. Dionne]

Susan Morrison, thank you very much. We'll be right back. If you read one book about creativity this year, let it be this one. Susan Morrison's Lorn Susan Morrison gets tonight's last word.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

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[Senator Amy Klobuchar]

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[Lawrence O'Donnell]

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