Top Senate Democrat: Trump’s HHS Secy. RFK Jr. ‘must be fired immediately'

Summary

Podcast Summary: "The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell" (August 28, 2025)

Guest Host: Ali Velshi

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1. Overview of the Episode's Main Theme

This episode examines major, urgent political stories related to the Trump administration's latest moves — particularly the mass resignations at the CDC following controversial decisions by HHS Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr., a tragic school shooting in Minneapolis, escalating tensions between the executive and judiciary, and a surprise Democratic win in Iowa's legislature. The show is marked by deep concern for the state of American institutions, public health, public safety, and democracy itself.

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2. Key Discussion Points and Insights

a. CDC Crisis and Calls for RFK Jr.'s Firing

[02:04–14:48]

Background:

• In less than a month, HHS Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. has overseen sweeping changes, including the ousting of CDC Director Susan Monarez and a rollback of COVID-19 vaccine eligibility.
• Multiple top CDC officials resigned in protest, citing politicization and dismantling of evidence-based public health.

Patty Murray’s Statement:

• Demands RFK Jr. be fired immediately for "burn(ing) what's left of the CDC… to the ground."

Congressman Ro Khanna's Reaction ([07:36]):

• "Look, these are modern day flat earthers... It is anti science. It has a fundamental misunderstanding of technology. They're basically the modern flat earth society in charge."
• "It's an embarrassment to any American, Republican, Independent or Democrat."

Dr. Ashish Jha on the Stakes ([08:52]):

• "This is about giving people freedom and choice... What you saw tonight at the CDC was a wholesale destruction of the leadership of the organization."
• "Our enemies are watching this with glee knowing that we have no capability to prevent and detect biological attacks on our country."

Resignation Quotes:

• Dr. Daskalakis: "I am not able to serve in this role any longer because of the ongoing weaponizing of public health..." ([06:34])
• Dr. Deborah Houry: "The science at CDC should never be censored or subject to political pauses or interpretations. Vaccines save lives. This is an indisputable, well established scientific fact..." ([06:54])

Wider Implications:

• The administration is accused of systematically undermining science and public health for political gain, echoing actions against other agencies.
• White House responded that Monarez was "not aligned with the President's agenda of making America healthy again," and confirmed her termination ([09:53]).

Broader Warnings:

• Tom Frieden (former CDC director), via Ashish Jha: “For 80 years, CDC has been a beacon of health protection... That beacon is now in grave danger of being extinguished...” ([12:11])

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b. Minneapolis School Shooting and Gun Violence Policy

[16:00–23:44]

Incident Details:

• Mass shooting at Annunciation Catholic School in Minneapolis: two children (ages 8 and 10) killed, 14 other children and 3 elderly parishioners injured.

Congressman Maxwell Frost’s Response ([18:04]):

• "Donald Trump is pro gun violence. We have to be very straight up about what's going on in this country right now."
• "We've had it with the thoughts and prayers for years, for decades… and we got some good stuff done… Gun violence was going down. And then Trump comes in and on day two, he gets rid of the office."

Notable Quotes:

• "If you're pissed off about this, run for office. If you're pissed off about this, help someone run for office that's actually gonna stand up for our people and for our children." ([20:50])
• "I remember 10 years ago… we got this sticker… it said, if I die due to a shooting, politicize the hell out of my death to make sure it never happens again.” ([22:24])

Wider Context:

• "Gun violence is the leading cause of death for children in America." ([21:12])
• Discussion on NRA’s role in blocking legislation, with focus on gun manufacturers and the lobbying ecosystem.

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c. Judiciary Under Attack: Trump Sues Federal Judges

[24:49–36:33]

Key Development:

• Trump administration filed an unprecedented lawsuit against all federal judges in Maryland over deportation orders, widely interpreted as intimidation.

Judge J. Michael Ludig Commentary:

• “This is a significant step that Donald Trump has taken to intimidate and threaten the federal judges across America. He's been bad mouthing them, criticizing them and trashing them, literally trashing them.” ([27:54])
• “This suit was, as a matter of law, a suit by the United States against the United States… It slashed at the separation of powers in this country.” ([31:00])
• “The Supreme Court… will never do anything about this… That's why the only recourse, I believe, is for the American people to rise up…” ([33:47])

Judge Cullen’s Ruling (as quoted by Ali Velshi):

• “To hold otherwise would give the Executive unconstitutional leverage over its equal branches of government, eviscerating the principles of checks and balances that are a hallmark of our constitutional order.” ([29:55])

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d. Surprise Democratic Win in Iowa State Senate

[37:36–44:34]

Election Result:

• Caitlin Dray, a Democrat, flipped a "safe" Republican Senate seat by 11 points in an Iowa district Trump won by 10 in 2024—a net 21-point swing.

Caitlin Dray on Local Issues:

• "Across Iowa, rural communities are shrinking, schools are underfunded, healthcare is out of reach, the political air is toxic and the water is nearly as bad. I'm done being afraid.” ([38:30])
• “We knocked on over 17,000 doors… made almost 30,000 phone calls… that groundwork makes a huge difference…” ([40:04])

Importance of Medicaid and Healthcare:

• “If those providers are not able to have an equal reimbursement rate... that affects the rest of us.” ([41:53])
• Points to need for conversations on practical policy rather than ideological divisions.

On Voter Engagement:

• “I think Iowans are largely frustrated… But I'm optimistic that we are seeing a shift in the way people think about what their vote means.” ([43:25])

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3. Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• Ro Khanna: “They’re basically the modern flat earth society in charge. They need to all go. And it’s an embarrassment to any American...” ([07:40])
• Ashish Jha: “Our enemies are watching this with glee, knowing that we have no capability to prevent and detect biological attacks on our country.” ([09:16])
• Maxwell Frost: “Donald Trump is pro gun violence. We have to be very straight up about what's going on in this country right now.” ([18:21])
• Judge J. Michael Ludig: “This is a significant step that Donald Trump has taken to intimidate and threaten the federal judges across America.” ([27:54])
• Caitlin Dray: “We need thoughtful policies that care more about people than pipelines.” ([38:30])

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4. Timestamps for Important Segments

• CDC & HHS RFK Jr. Developments: [02:04–14:48]
  • Ro Khanna: [07:36], [10:48], [14:01]
  • Ashish Jha: [08:52], [12:42]
• Minneapolis School Shooting/Gun Policy: [16:00–23:44]
  • Maxwell Frost: [18:04], [20:10], [22:00]
• Executive vs Judiciary/Trump Lawsuit: [24:49–36:33]
  • Judge J. Michael Ludig: [27:54], [31:00], [33:47], [35:49]
• Iowa State Senate Flip - Caitlin Dray Interview: [37:36–44:34]

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5. Tone and Language

• The episode runs on a sense of urgency, outrage, and frustration—especially regarding attacks on public health, the judiciary, and the persistence of gun violence.
• Participants use frank, direct language. Maxwell Frost, in particular, expresses exasperation at inaction: "these people have not done shit." ([19:43])
• Ali Velshi emphasizes empathy and the human toll of policies, while Ro Khanna and Ashish Jha frame the political issues as existential threats to science and American democracy.

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Summary Verdict

This episode brings into sharp focus the intersection of public health, democracy, gun safety, and the rule of law, showing how high-level political moves reverberate through institutions and on-the-ground realities. Through a series of informed, candid discussions with lawmakers and judicial experts, listeners get an urgent primer on the extraordinary and worrisome state of contemporary American governance and the stakes for public health, public safety, judicial independence, and the act of voting itself.

Transcript

[Nicole Wallace]

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[Ali Velshi]

The Last Word starts right now with Ali Vilshi, once again in for Lawrence. Hey, Ali.

Jen, I often jokingly say that your work keeps me from doing mine as I prep for the show. But your show was something else tonight. I hope everybody saw it. I will be playing some of your monologue in this show just to remind people how they need to think about these things because you and I in different roles have seen too much of this and been involved in too many of them. And you're right. Here we are again. This is another one. And we say lots of things and we still have these. And if you think of yourself the way you have tonight as a parent of an innocent child, two innocent children who died praying in a church, exactly what happened.

And Ali, one of the many things I admire about you, you know so much about everything, almost anything. This is why people love watching your show. But you are a deeply empathetic human being, too. And we are human beings.

We are human beings in this, trying.

To share what's happening. And sometimes it hits you and sometimes it's a compilation of things. But this is one of those things.

I hope you're able to get some peace and some rest tonight.

Thank you so much, Ali.

Well, we have a lot of breaking news tonight. Less than a week after Donald Trump's targeting of a Federal Reserve Board member, a couple of weeks after the firing of the agency that counts the monthly job numbers tonight, the Trump administration's push to reshape public health is triggering mass resignations at the Centers for Disease control. It's so serious that moments ago the Democratic Senator Patty Murray put out a statement saying that HHS secretary Robert Kennedy Jr. Must be fired immediately. It's a story that's still developing, but here's what we believe we know right now. Today, after less than a month on the job, Robert Kennedy Jr. S Department of Health and Human Services announced that CDC Director Susan Monarz was no longer at the agency. Tonight, Manarez's lawyers responded and said Dr. Manarez has neither resigned nor received notification from the White House that she has been fired and as a person of integrity and devoted to science, she will not resign. The statement adds this context both in terms of Trump and Robert Kennedy's health agenda, but also the broader Trump attack on public servants and American government. First it was independent advisory committees and career experts. Then it was the dismissal of seasoned scientists. Now Secretary Kennedy and HHS have set their sights on weaponizing public health for political gain and putting millions of Americans lives at risk. When CDC Director Susan Menarez refused to rubber stamp unscientific, reckless directives and fire dedicated health experts, she chose protecting the public over serving a political agenda. For that, she has been targeted. This is not about one official in the same way targeting a Fed governor isn't about that governor's actions and firing the head of the Bureau of Labor Statistics isn't about there being something wrong with the data. This is about the systematic dismantling of public health institutions, the silencing of experts and the dangerous politicization of science. The attack on Dr. Manares is a warning to every American. Our evidence based systems are being undermined from within science and integrity can never be compromised. Dr. Minarez stood up for both and she will continue to do so. Now this comes on the same day that the Food and Drug administration sharply narrowed COVID 19 vaccine eligibility, restricting it to adults 65 and older and those with underlying conditions, creating the most limited scope since the vaccines first became available. The Washington Post reports quote Monarres, who was confirmed in late July, was pressed for days by HHS Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Administration lawyers and other officials about whether she would support rescinding certain approvals for coronavirus vaccines, according to two people with knowledge of those conversations. Kennedy, who has a long history of anti vaccine advocacy, and other officials questioned Manares on Monday on whether she was aligned with the administration's efforts to change vaccine policy, the people said. Manares, who is a longtime federal government scientist before President Donald Trump nominated her to lead the cdc, declined to commit to support changing coronavirus vaccine policy without consulting her advisors. Two people said that prompted Kennedy to urge her to resign for, quote, not supporting President Trump's agenda. One of the people said the top officials at the CDC who did resign tonight in protest are the CDC's Chief Medical Officer, Dr. Deborah Houry, Dr. Dimitri Daskalakis, the director of the national center for Immunization and respiratory diseases, Dr. Daniel Jernigan, who oversaw the center that oversees vaccine safety, and Dr. Jennifer Laden, head of the Office of public health data. Dr. Daskalakis wrote in an email to colleagues, quote, I am not able to serve in this role any longer because of the ongoing weaponizing of public health. You are the best team I have ever worked with and you continue to shine despite this dark cloud over the agency and our profession, end quote. And in a rebuke of Robert F. Kennedy Jr. S repeated goal of limiting access to vaccines, Dr. Houry wrote, quote from for the good of the nation and the world, the science at CDC should never be censored or subject to political pauses or interpretations. Vaccines save lives. This is an indisputable, well established scientific fact. Informed consent and shared decision making must focus not only on the risks but also on the true life saving benefits that vaccines provide to individuals and communities. It is of course important to question, analyze and review research and surveillance, but this must be done by experts with the right skills and experience, without bias and considering the full weight of scientific evidence. Recently, the overstating of risks and the rise of misinformation have cost lives as demonstrated by the highest number of U.S. measles cases in 30 years and the violent attack on our agency, end quote. Leading off our discussion tonight is the Democratic Congressman Ro Khanna of California. He's a member of the House oversight committee and Dr. Ashish Jha, who served as the White House COVID 19 response coordinator. He's the dean of Brown University School of Public Health. Gentlemen, thank you for being here. Congressman, I just want to start with you because Patty Murray has released a statement. We cannot let RFK Jr burn what's left of the CDC and our other critical health agencies to the ground. He must be fired. I hope my Republican colleagues who have come to regret their vote to confirm RFK Jr will join me in calling for his immediate termination from office. Your response please.

[Ro Khanna]

I agree with Senator Murray. Look, these are modern day flat earthers. They have denied funding for any MRNA vaccine, not just for Covid vaccines for MRNA vaccines that would be universal cures for the flu, that complicate MRNA vaccines that treat cancer All MRNA does is a faster way of producing a vaccine. It's a technology that says you don't have to grow the protein, you give the genetic instructions. And they're opposed to this. It is anti science. It has a fundamental misunderstanding of technology. They're basically the modern flat earth society in charge. They need to all go. And it's an embarrassment to any American, Republican, Independent or Democrat.

[Ali Velshi]

Ashish, we're learning more about this through the course of the evening. But the irony here is that this isn't about a vaccine mandate. This isn't about telling. I mean, you wouldn't have a debate about whether or not you should mandate vaccine. This is, as the Congressman says, about funding vaccines, about vaccine research, and about pulling back authority or approval for vaccines. I'm sort of with the Congressman here. This is. This just has a weird anti science feel to it.

[Ashish Jha]

Yeah, well, first of all, Alec, thanks for having me back. Look, first and foremost, we ended the vaccine mandates two years ago when I was at the White House. All the vaccine mandates went away. The national emergency went away. Nobody is under mandates to do anything.

[Ali Velshi]

Yeah, get one if you want.

[Ashish Jha]

This is about giving people freedom and choice. And I believe that people should have the freedom and choice to be able to get the COVID vaccines if they want. What you saw tonight at the CDC was a wholesale destruction of the leadership of the organization. And what that does, it has two implications. First, it leaves our country extraordinarily vulnerable. Our enemies are watching this with glee, knowing that we have no capability to prevent and detect biological attacks on our country. And what you saw was a group of dedicated civil servants who have served the country admirably, saying we will not continue to sign onto a political agenda. We are going to do the morally right thing and quit. It is an extraordinary moment and as I said, one that leaves our country very vulnerable to biological threats.

[Ali Velshi]

Congressman, There was a bit of back and forth as to whether she'd resigned or not resigned or been fired or whatever the case is. A White House spokesperson has put out this comment as her attorney statement, which I read in the introduction makes abundantly clear. Susan Manara is not aligned with the President's agenda of making America healthy again. Since Susan Menarez refused to resign despite informing HHS leadership of her intent to do so, the White House has terminated Manares from her position with the cdc. So I guess here's my issue, that some of this is exactly what you two gentlemen are talking about. Flat earth and anti science stuff. Some of it is like firing the head of The Bureau of Labor Statistics, like going after Lisa Cook at the Federal Reserve. It's this. It's just the sort of undermining of anyone who projects any. Any uncertainty what. What Donald Trump or. Or a particular cabinet secretary might want to do.

[Ro Khanna]

Absolutely. Look, this is someone that Donald Trump nominated. This is someone that went through the Senate with Republican votes. And just because she. That we believe in vaccines, that we believe in technology. This has nothing to do with where you stood on mask mandates. This has nothing to do with the COVID vaccine. This has to do with whether you believe in modern technology to help solve issues like cancer, to help have a universal vaccine for the flu. And Kennedy is saying no to all of that, by the way. China and other countries are moving full speed ahead. The entire scientific community is outraged by this. She's just standing up for that, and she's being fired. I mean, you have an administration that basically has made a habit of rejecting all forms of knowledge and expertise.

[Ali Velshi]

It's.

[Ro Khanna]

It's un American.

[Ali Velshi]

Ashish. One of the things that was on full display when, when we had the COVID pandemic is that we had people like you and we had. We had experts who demonstrated why some of these scientific and medical institutions in America are the gold standard. I want to read you something from Tom Frieden, the former director of the cdc. He said public health is under assault. The purge of CDC leadership, people with decades of experience guiding the nation's response to health threats, dismantles the very programs and direction that keep Americans safe from infectious diseases, chronic illnesses, injuries and violence. Losing institutional memory and expertise means weakening our frontline defense. For 80 years, CDC has been a beacon of health protection for the United States in the world. That beacon is now in grave danger of being extinguished, endangering all of our health. Eroding health protection capacity at the top further undermines trust at a time when it is most needed. Can you just give me a little sense of this? The CDC is a gold standard institution.

[Ashish Jha]

Yeah, absolutely. Like, look, could the CDC be reformed? Absolutely. Do we think there are places where the CDC could be made better? Yes. That is not what is happening here. What you see is a wholesale destruction of the cdc. What you saw tonight was a scientist standing up for some very basic scientific facts like vaccines work, not signing up to the vaccines cause autism agenda. And you know what you see is RFK Jr. When he doesn't like that, fires people. The real consequence for Americans is what Dr. Frieden laid out, which is the CDC is enormously important for things like when we have disease outbreaks. When you have lead poisoning in water, CDC acts on those things, all of that is going to be undermined. We are far more vulnerable now because of the actions of this administration and the actions of this health secretary congressman.

[Ali Velshi]

Whether it's RFK Jr. Or Pete Hegseth or all sorts of people you talk to, some of these Republican senators say, you know, if I knew now what I knew, then I might have voted differently. What I don't even understand that we had all the information, particularly for with, with RFK Jr. We had an abundance of information. He's a pretty public guy. He's way out there about everything. He thinks about these things. They all knew.

[Ro Khanna]

They knew. I mean, look, if RFK had wanted to go after big food companies that are putting pesticides in food and clean up food, that would have been one thing. But they asked him point blank, are you going to allow vaccines? Are you going to allow the development of, of new technology to solve disease? And he didn't give clear answers. Then he should never have been confirmed in the first place. Many people voted for Donald Trump because they thought that the system wasn't working for them, that jobs had left, that communities were hollowed out and they wanted a change in the system. But what they didn't want is for us to destroy every civilizational advance that this country has made and to reject science and to reject technology and to reject the things that are going to allow us to win in the 21st century.

[Ali Velshi]

Gentlemen, thanks for kicking us off tonight. We appreciate it. Congressman Ro Khanna. Ashish, always good to see you. Thank you. Although one day I'd like to interview you and have no bad news. ASHISH J. Brown University all right, coming up, more on what we've been learning on today's tragic shooting in Minneapolis and reaction from gun violence professional prevention advocate Congressman Maxwell Frost. He's joining me next. There was a mass shooting at a school in America today. It's a phrase said far too often, but here we are again. The latest incident occurred at Annunciation Catholic School in Minneapolis, Minnesota. It happened during a morning Mass that was full of children and other worshippers. According to police, two students are dead, aged 8 and 10. Fourteen other children between ages 6 and 15 were injured. Three adults in their 80s who were parishioners attending the mass were also shot. The gunman, who was in their early 20s, died of a self inflicted gunshot wound. Tonight several vigils were held around the Twin Cities. Minnesota governor and 2024 Democratic vice presidential nominee Mike Walz was in attendance at one of them just outside of Minneapolis in the last hour, my colleague Jen Psaki spoke to the pain that parents across the country are feeling right now.

I have been thinking, as I'm sure everybody who has consumed this today has been doing as well, about my kids who happen to be about the same ages as the two who were killed, about sending them off to school this morning. I've been thinking about their friends and their teachers, about all the parents, about all the grandparents out there navigating the return to school. And all they should be hoping to do is have someone to sit with at lunch or someone to play with on the playground. And they should be waiting to hear an update when they get home. And that is not what these parents at this school experience today.

Then, Jen, talk to the mayor of Minneapolis, Jacob Fry.

[Jacob Frey]

Look, we've all got our professional titles in life, but the title that means the most to me is Husband and Dad. And I know I'm not unique. We should be thinking about these victims not just as somebody else's kids, but think of them as if they were your own. How would you feel? What would you be going through? Every parent should have the assurance and the confidence that they can kiss their kid goodbye, put on their headband, shove them some applesauce, and leave for school or church or daycare without the fear that they wouldn't come home.

[Ali Velshi]

By the way, I misspoke there. Of course, it was Tim Walz, the governor of Minnesota. Joining us now is the Democratic Congressman, Maxwell Frost of Florida. He's the former organizing director of March for Our Lives. He's a current member of the House Oversight Committee. Congressman, thanks for being with us. You expressed a sentiment very far from thoughts and prayers. You said these children were probably praying when they were shot to death at Catholic school. Don't give us your effing thoughts and prayers. Trump got rid of the Office of Gun Violence Prevention. Trump gutted the resources that were in place to keep our communities safe. You, like my friend Jen Psaki, have had it with the thoughts and prayers.

[Maxwell Frost]

Yeah, man, thanks for having me on. We've had it with the thoughts and prayers for years, for decades. I mean, I got involved in politics when I was 15 years old because I didn't want to get shot in school. Now I'm 28 and we're still dealing with the same thing over and over and over again. And we got some good stuff done. During the last administration and the Biden administration, the White House office, gun violence prevention, the bipartisan Safer Communities Act. Gun violence was Going down. And then Trump comes in and on day two, he gets rid of the office. And over the last several months, he's been getting rid of all these programs and all this funding, even mental health programs for schools so we can help communities even after these shootings happen, too. Donald Trump is pro gun violence. We have to be very straight up about what's going on in this country right now. And we can't beat around the bush and assume best intentions. And I brought this up in a committee hearing with Virginia Fox, and I brought up that they call themselves pro lifers, but they do nothing about the fact that we have children dying in school. And so it's just like, I'm sorry, my thoughts are all over the place, but it's just frustrating that it happens again and again and again in this nation. And the question is, when are we going to actually do something? And I've spent so much time, man, in meetings with politicians before I was a politician, when I was an activist crying with legislators, them hugging us, saying, don't worry, we're gonna do something. And then they do the same thing they've always done. So for me, it's less about changing the minds of these politicians and it's about changing the politicians themselves. Because for my entire life, these people have not done shit.

[Ali Velshi]

Although what you did is with things like March for Our Lives, it did change things. It was a turning point in which the forces in favor of common sense gun safety overtook the other forces in terms of the amount of money that they were able to put in, in terms of putting candidates up. So, you know, your thoughts may be all over the place tonight, but it's better than being locked down and thinking there's nothing that can be done. This doesn't have to keep happening.

[Maxwell Frost]

Exactly. And what happened too, after the shooting that happened at Marjory Stoneman Douglas, after students rose up and said, we call bs, they fought. We saw the record breaking turnout of young people across this country and we kicked those politicians out that didn't do anything. And you know, I'm in the state of Florida, which is the button of a lot of jokes, but they actually passed something. Wasn't perfect, but they passed good gun laws that include red flag laws to help make sure that shooters don't have these guns. And it was passed by a Republican legislature, signed a law by Republican governor. But now we are in such a different moment in our country where authoritarianism and fascism has taken over the Republican Party. Now they're trying to undo the stuff they did after The Stu shooting that happened in Parkland. And so this is part of the reason why it's so important that we need. If you're pissed off about this, run for office. If you're pissed off about this, help someone run for office. That's actually gonna stand up for our people and for our children. Online I have a bunch of MAGA people under my post, the one you just read saying don't politicize this, don't politicize the death.

[Ali Velshi]

Yeah, we're way past that. We're way past the nonsense about not politicizing. You had another post. Sorry, there was a post from March for our Today little kids at Annunciation Catholic School were forced into a club that no child should ever join. It's an effed up club and it's growing because our so called leaders refuse to act. Gun violence is the leading cause of death for children in America. I'm going to read that again. Gun violence is the leading cause of death for children in America and every day they refuse to act. More children are sacrificed. We're worried about vaccines and MRNA. We've got troops in the streets of Washington D.C. for safety. And yet if you're a kid in America, your likelihood of dying is greatest at school.

[Maxwell Frost]

And I like to spell it out even clearer for parents, especially if God forbid, your child died tomorrow, the most likely reason would be because of bullets. That's the country we live in. That's the decisions that Republican politicians have made time and time again. And about politicizing stuff. I remember 10 years ago as a teenager in this movement, myself and a bunch of my friends got this sticker that we put on the back of our id. And I always think about this sticker and it said, if I die due to a shooting, politicize the hell out of my death to make sure it never happens again.

[Ali Velshi]

And we saw a little of that in Florida. We saw the families saying, my child didn't die in vain. We are not going to let this go. We're not going to be thoughts and prayers and my child is just another statistic. We're going to make this a turning point for America. Is it your sense that, I mean, it seems to be that the public is there. This seems to be a limitation imposed by Republican politicians.

[Maxwell Frost]

It's a limitation imposed by Republican politicians and the nra, but it's not. We have to look even beyond the NRA because the NRA is a lobbying front for the gun manufacturers and the gun industry. The NRA was literally built to get the blows deal to that dealt to them instead of the corporations and the billionaires behind the corporations. And so it's important that we start naming these companies Smith and Wesson. It's important that we start talking about the gun manufacturers and the billionaires behind the NRA that are the ones that want to stop any gun law from being passed because it hurts the bottom line. And like every other issue, from climate change to health care to every other issue, it is big money behind it. And gun violence is no different.

[Ali Velshi]

Congressman, good to see you as always. Thank you for joining us tonight. Congressman Maxwell Frost of Florida. All right, coming up, Donald Trump's campaign against federal judges received a smackdown from an unlikely source yesterday, a Trump appointed federal judge who not only ruled against him, but called out the threat to the constitutional order as he did so. Judge Michael Ludig called the opinion blistering. He'll join us next on what that means for the future.

[Nicole Wallace]

I think that you have to have faith that in the end it'll all be okay, that no matter who wins a presidential election, we will live in a democracy. The First Amendment will govern what journalists can say and do. The Constitution will protect the rights of everybody if you can agree that most people want those things. Our show is about trying to bend the arc toward that end result.

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[Ali Velshi]

The second Trump administration has gone to unprecedented lengths to radically transform America.

[Nicole Wallace]

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[Ali Velshi]

Offend the rule of law. That's what a Trump appointed judge said yesterday in dismissing an unprecedented Trump administration lawsuit against every federal judge in Maryland over a standing order limiting the government's ability to quickly deport immigrants. The judge said this court has no alternative but to dismiss. To hold otherwise would run counter to overwhelming precedent, depart from long standing constitutional tradition and offend the rule of law. Judge Thomas Cullen accused Donald Trump's administration of taking a confrontational approach with the judicial system, saying that the Trump Justice Department had other ways to challenge the order of one judge that applied a two day stay of deportation for immigrants who wanted to contest their removal. That's right. This whole fight is over a two day pause in Trump's deportation efforts that risked undermining People's due process rights. As the judge pointed out, quote, instead of appealing any one of the affected habeas cases or filing a rules challenge with the Judicial Council, the executive decided to sue. And in a big way. In casting its wide net, the executive ensnared an entire judicial body, a vital part of this coordinate branch of government and its principal officers, in novel and potentially calamitous litigation, end quote. Now, the judge in the case takes issue with the Trump administration's aggressive use of executive power in this, what he calls this extraordinary, extraordinarily unusual lawsuit, stressing the co equal nature of each of the three branches of government that's written into the Constitution. He writes, much as the executive fights the characterization, a lawsuit by the executive branch of government against the judicial branch for the exercise of judicial power is not ordinary. Whatever the merits of its grievance with the judges of the United States District Court for the District of Maryland, the executive must find a proper way to raise those concerns. Last night, Trump's Justice Department appealed the decision. Our next guest, Judge Michael Ludig, wrote this. On the very idea that the President and Attorney General of the United States of America were so contemptuous of the federal courts as to even bring this utterly frivolous lawsuit against a federal court of the United States for the sole purpose of threatening and intimidating the federal courts across the nation is reprehensible, end quote. Joining us now is the former United States Court of Appeals Judge, J. Michael Ludig. Judge Ludig, thank you for being here. Thank you for your analysis of this. I think you get to the point here that this is not. This is not a sort of a high level legal argument. This is attempted intimidation by the executive of the judiciary.

[Judge J. Michael Ludig]

That's correct, Ali. I happen to personally know Judge Thomas Cullen. He's one of the finest judges on the federal bench today. His opinion was characteristically understated and measured. Actually, he. I'm sure, like almost every other lower federal court judge would love to say much more than they will ever say in an opinion. But I tried to explain to the American people in my substack piece just what this case was and what it was about, and that is this. This is a significant step that Donald Trump has taken to intimidate and threaten the federal judges across America. He's been bad mouthing them, criticizing them and trashing them, literally trashing them. In his words and in the words of the Attorney General since the day he took office in January. The federal judges, the lower federal court judges, alley, by which I mean the federal district courts and the United States courts of appeals judges in this country, they will not tolerate this any longer. It took a great deal of courage for Judge Cullen to write this opinion, and at that, as I said, it was modest, reserved, and measured. But I believe every federal judge in America believes the same thing, and this will open the floodgates.

[Ali Velshi]

It was moderate and measured, but it was remarkably clear, which is, I think, of great import today. I just want to read you something more that he wrote that you commented on. None of these cases support the Executive's theory that it can sue federal judges simply because it disagrees with how they carry out their constitutional instincts. Statutory duties. Unlike all cases the Executive cites, this is a controversy between equals. And therein lies the rub. The Executive is the strong arm of the sovereign and thus has the authority to sue on behalf of its interests. But that authority does not license attempts to sue a coordinate branch sharing the same sovereign constitutional interest. To hold otherwise would give the Executive unconstitutional leverage over its equal branches of government, eviscerating the principles of checks and balances that are a hallmark of our constitutional order. At bottom, the Executive appears to confuse an executive prerogative with a sovereign interest. I think this is an interesting point that those of us who are not lawyers don't think about that. Someone's got to stop them. Not on the merits of the case, but on the process.

[Judge J. Michael Ludig]

Yes. So let me synthesize what Judge Cullen just said in that passage. It's very simple, and the American people need to understand this. That was essentially a basic civics lesson. It's Constitutional 101 for lawyers, and it is well understood by Donald Trump and Attorney General Pam Bondi. That is, this suit was, as a matter of law, a suit by the United States against the United States. A suit, as Judge Collins said, by the Executive of the United States against the judiciary of the United States. It slashed at the separation of powers in this country. And the reason that Donald Trump filed that lawsuit is because he is attacking the coordinate branches of our federal government every day since the day he took office in January. That is, he is attacking the Congress of the United States and even the judiciary of the United States in his unconscionable and unconstitutional grab for power. This is. Americans have never seen anything like this in 250 years since. Since the founding of this nation. And God help us, we will never see it again once the system, if it survives, works through these unconstitutional actions by the President of the United States of America.

[Ali Velshi]

So now the rest of us would think, if it's unconstitutional. The Supreme Court will step in and deal with it. At some point, you write in your substack, the Supreme Court is never going to stop this intentional and deliberate corruption of the federal judiciary and rule of law by this president and his Attorney General, Donald Trump, and Pam Bondi's corruption of the rule of law in America. America will continue apace until the American people stand up and cry out, no more. We've had enough. We are a nation of laws, not of men, End quote. And, Judge, I think therein lies the rub. Right? That's the point. That at this point, the American people get this more than I think the Trump administration understands. But they're going to have to do something about it. And I don't know what that looks like.

[Judge J. Michael Ludig]

Yes. And my specific point as you read is that the Supreme Court of the United States will never do anything about this. It's had eight or nine months and it's been presented with every opportunity in the world to condemn the President and the Attorney General's attacks, vicious attacks on the federal judiciary. And even the individual judges of the federal courts of the United States and the Chief justice and the Supreme Court have sat by stone silent. They will never condemn this president even for delegitimizing the federal judiciary of the United States. That's why the only recourse, I believe, is for the American people to rise up and say to the Supreme Court and to the President of the United States, enough is enough. We are a nation of laws. We are not a nation of men, and we are not a nation of Donald Trump.

[Ali Velshi]

And hopefully we're seeing more and more of that happen. In a footnote to the ruling, Judge Cullen made a point of saying that the executive or principal officers of the executive, including the president and their spokespeople, have been describing federal district judges across the country as left wing, liberal, activist, radical, politically minded, rogue, unhinged, outrageous, overzealous, unconstitutional, crooked and worse. There are enough of these judgments that come not just from conservative judges, but in some cases, in the case of Cullen, judges appointed by Donald Trump, these use of these name calling not seeming to have the desired effect on the judiciary.

[Judge J. Michael Ludig]

Well, the point I would make, Ali, is a slightly different one, and that is that the lower federal courts in this country have honored their oath to the Constitution and to America.

[Ali Velshi]

Right.

[Judge J. Michael Ludig]

For the past eight months, to the person, every single judge that's addressed any click case by Donald Trump has honored his or her oath. And of course, as we now know, those judges collectively have ruled against essentially every single initiative of this administration and this president.

[Ali Velshi]

Judge, I hope what you say comes to pass that we all decide this is not the country we are going to live in. Until then, you and I will continue to talk. I appreciate your time tonight as always, Judge J. Michael Ludig. All right, coming up, wonder why Donald Trump is so desperate to redistrict everywhere he can. Take a look at Iowa sports special election last night where a Democrat flipped a safe Republican seat in a district that Donald Trump won in the last election by double digits. That Democrat Caitlin Drake joins me next.

[Nicole Wallace]

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[Ali Velshi]

Why are Trump and Republicans running scared for the midterms? Well, Trump's polling at 37%. And last night in a special election, an Iowa Democrat flipped a state Senate district blue for the first time since 2011. 37 year old Caitlin Dray defeated her Republican opponent by 11 percentage points in a district that Donald Trump carried by 10 percentage points in the 2024 election, a 21 point swing in a district that Republicans considered safe. And that's not it. In doing so, Democrats have broken the GOP's supermajority in the Iowa Senate for the first time in three years, Republicans still have a majority, but without the 2/3 majority, Republicans lose their ability to ram through extreme policies without bipartisan votes. Here was Caitlin Dray's closing message to Iowa voters.

[Caitlin Dray]

Across Iowa, rural communities are shrinking, schools are underfunded, healthcare is out of reach, the political air is toxic and the water is nearly as bad. I'm done being afraid. I'm Caitlin Dray and I'm ready to work for change. Let's send a message to Des Moines. We need thoughtful policies that care more about people than pipelines. I'm Kaitlyn Dray and I'm asking for your vote in the special election on August 26th.

[Ali Velshi]

And joining us now is the Democratic Iowa state senator elect, Caitlin Dray. She flipped a seat breaking the Republican supermajority in the Iowa state Senate. Congratulations and welcome to the show tonight.

[Caitlin Dray]

Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.

[Ali Velshi]

Obviously, all the armchair quarterback going on special election, lots of money came in, lower turnout, whatever. As we've learned in this country, elections have Consequences.

[Caitlin Dray]

Absolutely. And I think the consequence here is that voters will have a bigger seat at the table. As you mentioned, that super majority is no longer. And that means that we will not be hopefully subject to as many unwelcome and bad policies in the state of Iowa.

[Ali Velshi]

So your one special election has literally changed the trajectory for Iowa for the next few years because of this one change. Right. A super majority which exists in several states means they can override a veto, they can do whatever they want. This changes a whole bunch of things. Every Democrat in the state is now sitting here and rewriting their plans for the next year or so.

[Caitlin Dray]

Yeah. So this, my, my term will end at the end of session this year. It is a special election to fill out the term of the. The previous senator who sadly passed away at the end of June. But I will be running for reelection. And you know, name recognition can go a long way in a reelection campaign. But what really makes a difference is that we laid the groundwork in other races. We've had three previous special elections in the state of Iowa, and Senator Mike Zimme in Clinton county did the same thing. He flipped plus more. The numbers escape me at the moment, but his margin was even bigger and he flipped that seat and has been an exceptional representative. We have done the work to reach as many voters as we possibly can. We knocked on over 17,000 doors. We made almost 30,000 phone calls. And that was largely a local effort with my Woodbury County Democratic Party, who I spent, spent a lot of time with last cycle. And we know that that groundwork makes a huge difference when we are talking about Democratic policies.

[Ali Velshi]

You're. That, that final pitch that I played a little bit of when you said, you know, we were talking about rural Iowa, these policies in the federal bill that passed recently. There are a whole lot of things that are hurting rural America. There is the USAID cuts, the SNAP cuts, but, but very basic stuff that, that's affecting farmers and rural America, including health care cuts, because if you're 75 years old and your local hospital closes because it's defunded, you can't live there.

[Caitlin Dray]

And I think what's most striking about that is that our rural hospitals and even our, you know, semi urban hospitals, like the one in, in Sioux City where I live, they rely on competitive Medicaid reimbursement rates. And with cuts to Medicaid, our health care system will, will be devastated. And that affects people who don't utilize Medicaid at all. If those providers are not able to have an equal reimbursement rate or, you know, something that keeps pace with, with what we have as providers that affects the rest of us who are your.

[Ali Velshi]

Specialist goes away, your hospital might close, your community health center might close. You may never have touched Medicaid or have any plan to touch Medicaid in your life, but you can't get the provision of healthcare.

[Caitlin Dray]

Yeah. And it's what's really devastating is people will say I don't want to pay for someone else's healthcare. Well, you already are in private insurance. The difference is you are not subjecting yourself to additional premiums that you'll never see the benefit of to benefit a CEO who needs to buy another mega yacht or shareholders who are getting payouts. And that's the real difference.

[Ali Velshi]

And do you like we've been watching these town halls across the country with members of Congress. Were you getting the sense that voters sort of were prepared to put aside their ideological where they normally stand on the ideological spectrum to realize that America is going in a bad direction and they don't want to be part of this?

[Caitlin Dray]

I think Iowans are largely frustrated with the direction that things have been going in Des Moines and in Washington. And I am hopeful. I'm not Pollyannish by any stretch of the imagination, but I'm optimistic that we are seeing a shift in the way people think about what their vote means. I spoke to a woman over the weekend who said, I don't think that voting makes a difference and I'm not interested in, interested in, in turning out. And I said, well, here's why this race is important. It breaks the super majority and, you know, gives us a better seat at the table. And she said, I'm, I'll go vote tomorrow. I think that was, that conversation was on Sunday and she made a plan to vote on Monday. And those types of conversations and having that discourse with your neighbors is, is really what's going to make the difference as we close in on, on 2026.

[Ali Velshi]

For all of history now when people ask their little AI app on their phone, does voting make a difference? Your name's going to show up and they're going to talk about how yeah, it made a difference.

That's the legacy.

That was a 21 point swing for a lot of people who may thought have thought their vote wasn't going to make a difference. And now we get to talk about it. Thank you for being with us tonight. Again. Congratulations, Iowa State Senator elect Caitlin Drake. Hey everyone, it's Chris Hayes.

[Ro Khanna]

This week my podcast why Is this Happening?

[Ali Velshi]

Environmentalist and author Bill McKip. There is one big good thing happening in the midst of all the big bad things that are happening on our planet, and it is going so far largely unnoticed. That's the explosion of renewable energy finally taking its place. Solar power is not just the biggest new source of energy right now, it's the biggest new source of energy ever. That's this week on why is this Happening? Search for why is this Happening? Wherever you're listening right now and follow.