Trump & allies escalate fight with federal courts

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Trump & Allies Escalate Fight with Federal Courts"

The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell
Host: Jonathan Capehart
Episode Release Date: March 20, 2025
Episode Title: Trump & allies escalate fight with federal courts

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Introduction

In this episode of The Last Word with Jonathan Capehart, the focus centers on former President Donald Trump and his allies intensifying their confrontations with the federal judiciary. The discussions delve into Trump's recent actions against judges, the political ramifications of these moves, and the broader implications for American democracy and legal institutions.

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Trump's Escalated Attacks on Federal Judges

Donald Trump's Increased Assault on the Judiciary

Donald Trump continued his public assault on the federal judiciary, particularly targeting judges who ruled against his administration's policies. Following a rare rebuke from Supreme Court Chief Justice John Roberts regarding Trump's call to impeach judges, Trump escalated his rhetoric by attacking U.S. District Judge James Boasberg.

Trump (Timestamp [01:36]):
"If a president doesn't have the right to throw murderers and other criminals out of our country because a radical left lunatic judge wants to assume the role of president, then our country is in very big trouble and destined to fail."

Judicial Oversight of Executive Actions

Judge Boasberg responded to Trump's administration for allegedly violating court orders related to the deportation of Venezuelan migrants. The judge posed five critical questions to the Trump administration to ascertain compliance with the court's directives.

Judge Boasberg (Timestamp [03:45]):
"The court seeks this information not as a micromanaged and unnecessary judicial fishing expedition, but to determine if the government deliberately flouted its orders issued on March 15, 2025, and if so, what the consequences should be."

Despite Trump’s assertions, the administration faced mounting pressure to comply with judicial oversight.

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Political Ramifications and Impeachment Efforts

Impeachment of Judge Boasberg

Republican Congressman Brandon Gill introduced articles of impeachment against Judge Boasberg, accusing him of "high crimes and misdemeanors" for his rulings against the Trump administration. However, Democratic Congressman Eric Swalwell criticized the move as baseless and unlikely to gain traction in Congress.

Eric Swalwell (Timestamp [03:45]):
"He knows he can bring his impeachment articles immediately to a vote. He won't do that because he knows myself and a few other Dems will beat back this BS on the House floor."

Elon Musk's Involvement

Elon Musk intensified his attacks on the judiciary, calling for the impeachment of judges and making sizeable political donations to Republican candidates supporting judicial impeachments. This has raised concerns about the influence of billionaires on political processes and the safety of judges.

Eric Swalwell (Timestamp [10:17]):
"Companies that lie and cheat to get ahead. And it's not just about the FTC."

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Intimidation and Threats Against Judges

Escalating Threats and Safety Concerns

The Trump administration, alongside Musk and his supporters, has been implicated in a rise of threats and intimidation tactics against federal judges. These include bomb threats, anonymous calls, and even deceptive actions like pizza deliveries intended to intimidate judicial figures.

Eric Swalwell (Timestamp [07:30]):
"They know where you and your family members live, said one judge who is overseeing litigation against the Trump administration and has received a pizza delivery."

Impact on Judicial Independence

These intimidation efforts have fostered fear among judges, threatening the impartiality and independence of the judiciary. The administration's continuous undermining of legal institutions poses a significant challenge to the rule of law.

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Policy Implications and Social Security Concerns

Social Security Administration Changes

The Trump administration introduced changes to the Social Security Administration (SSA), limiting the ability to file or modify benefits through phone calls, mandating online verification or in-person visits. This move disproportionately affects older, infirm, and rural individuals who may lack internet access or the means to visit field offices.

Eric Swalwell (Timestamp [09:00]):
"Social Security is weighing changes that will actually reduce the number of older, infirm and rural people who can access their earned benefits."

Senator Amy Klobuchar's Response

Senator Klobuchar criticized the administration's actions, emphasizing the illegality of recent firings within the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) and the detrimental impact on consumer protections and independent commissions.

Amy Klobuchar (Timestamp [11:52]):
"Donald Trump doesn't have a right to fire these two people. And actually Justice Kavanaugh... said that these kinds of commissions have been found to be legal by legal scholars and judges over the years."

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Public Reaction and Legislative Responses

Town Halls and Voter Backlash

Democratic figures like Senator Klobuchar and Congresswoman Andrea Salinas highlighted the growing public outrage against Trump's policies during town halls. Voters express frustration over potential cuts to Medicaid, Social Security, and other essential services, fearing long-term negative impacts.

Andrea Salinas (Timestamp [24:54]):
"My constituents are outraged right now. They're outraged, they're scared. They're really concerned about things like Medicaid, Social Security, Medicare going away."

Legislative Measures

In response to the administration's actions, there have been calls for legislative interventions to protect independent commissions and maintain the integrity of federal institutions. Efforts include urging the reinstatement of illegally fired commissioners and safeguarding consumer protections.

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International Relations and the Ukraine Conflict

Trump's Involvement in Ukraine Peace Talks

Despite initial promises to end the war in Ukraine, Trump's attempts to mediate peace have not yielded significant progress. His discussions with Vladimir Putin have been met with skepticism, both domestically and internationally.

Eric Swalwell (Timestamp [35:09]):
"President Trump's phone call this morning with Ukrainian President Zelensky in which Zelensky agreed to pause airstrikes on energy facilities in Russia."

Insights from Mikhail Zieger

Mikhail Zieger, founder of Russia's only independent news station, provides an in-depth analysis of Putin's stance, suggesting that Russia has no intention of ceasing hostilities and views the conflict as a means to maintain control over the country.

Mikhail Zieger (Timestamp [36:11]):
"He has the feeling that he is stronger. He's much stronger than Ukrainians... So obviously, he is not ashamed of publicly admitting it while in Russia that he doesn't want any kind of ceasefire."

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Freedom of the Press Under Threat

Trump's Assault on Media Freedom

The episode also addresses Trump's ongoing campaign against the media, questioning the future of First Amendment freedoms. David Enrich, author of Murder the Fear, discusses how Trump's rhetoric is transitioning from incendiary language to tangible actions aimed at silencing critical journalism.

David Enrich (Timestamp [42:53]):
"People like Trump and many of his allies are trying to water down those legal protections, which will just basically make it much easier for them to not only sue people who criticize them but also to make threats that will have to be taken seriously."

Implications of Times v. Sullivan

Enrich emphasizes the importance of the landmark Supreme Court case New York Times vs. Sullivan, which protects journalists from frivolous libel lawsuits, thereby ensuring robust investigative reporting. Trump's efforts to undermine these protections pose a serious threat to press freedom.

David Enrich (Timestamp [42:53]):
"This decision basically protects journalists and members of the public and their ability to write and investigate and criticize powerful people without worrying that if they make an honest mistake, they might get sued into oblivion."

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Conclusion

The episode underscores a critical period in American politics, where the actions of Trump and his allies challenge the foundational pillars of the judiciary, legislative integrity, and press freedom. The intensified confrontations with federal courts and attempts to undermine independent institutions signify a troubling trend towards authoritarianism, raising urgent questions about the resilience of American democracy.

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Notable Quotes

• Donald Trump ([01:36]):
  "If a president doesn't have the right to throw murderers and other criminals out of our country because a radical left lunatic judge wants to assume the role of president, then our country is in very big trouble and destined to fail."

• Judge Boasberg ([03:45]):
  "The court seeks this information not as a micromanaged and unnecessary judicial fishing expedition, but to determine if the government deliberately flouted its orders issued on March 15, 2025, and if so, what the consequences should be."

• Amy Klobuchar ([11:52]):
  "Donald Trump doesn't have a right to fire these two people... It is illegal."

• Andrea Salinas ([24:54]):
  "My constituents are outraged right now. They're outraged, they're scared. They're really concerned about things like Medicaid, Social Security, Medicare going away."

• David Enrich ([42:53]):
  "People like Trump and many of his allies are trying to water down those legal protections... make it much easier for them to not only sue people who criticize them but also to make threats that will have to be taken seriously."

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This comprehensive summary encapsulates the key discussions and critical insights from the episode, providing a clear understanding of the escalating tensions between Trump's administration and federal courts, the ensuing political fallout, and the broader implications for American institutions and democratic freedoms.

Transcript

[Rachel Maddow]

Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts New episodes of all your favorite MSNBC shows Now, ad free + ad free listening to all of Rachel Maddow's original series, Ultra Bagman and Deja News and all MSNBC original podcasts are available ad free and with bonus content including why is this Happening? Felshey Band Book Club and more. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts MSNBC presents a new original podcast hosted by Jen Psaki. Each week she and her guests explore how the Democratic Party is facing this political moment and where it's headed next.

[Jonathan Capehart]

There's probably both messaging and policy issues.

[Andrea Salinas]

But as you look to kind of.

[Jonathan Capehart]

Where the Democratic Party is, do you think it's more a messaging issue, more a policy issue?

[Rachel Maddow]

The Blueprint with Jen Psaki. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts for ad free listening and bonus content.

[Jonathan Capehart]

Now it's time for the Last Word, where Jonathan Capehart is in for Lawrence tonight.

[Andrea Salinas]

Good evening, Jonathan.

[Eric Swalwell]

Good evening, Rachel. You know, you started your show with the illustration from Roz Chast. The fun boring. And in the middle is Bob. Yes, I'm gonna. That is going to be my illustration for the next four years.

[Amy Klobuchar]

Exactly.

[Jonathan Capehart]

Some fun things are also boring. It happens. These things happen. No offense to anybody named Bob, especially my D.

[Eric Swalwell]

That's great, Rachel. Have a good night.

[Jonathan Capehart]

Thank you, Jonathan.

[Eric Swalwell]

The day after Supreme Court Chief Justice John Roberts issued a rare rebuke of Donald Trump's call for impeaching judges who rule against him, Donald Trump once again attacked a federal judge who ruled against him. And he's enlisting his lieutenants in government to do the same. Overnight, Donald Trump posted this on social media, quote, if a president doesn't have the right to throw murderers and other criminals out of our country because a radical left lunatic judge wants to assume the role of president, then our country is in very big trouble and destined to fail. Okay, first of all, Judge Boasberg was first appointed by Republican President George W. Bush. Second of all, a president does not have a right to do that in violation of the Constitution. And that's for a judge to decide. Welcome to America. Today, U.S. district Judge James Boasberg gave Trump's Justice Department another 24 hours to answer five extremely straightforward questions in an effort to understand why the Trump administration didn't obey a court order Saturday to turnaround flights deporting Venezuelan migrants to El Salvador. Question one, what time did the plane take off from US Soil and from where? Question two, what time did it leave US Airspace? Question three, what Time did it land in which foreign country, including if it made more than one stop? Question four, what time were individuals subject solely to the proclamation transferred out of U.S. custody? And question five, how many people were aboard solely on the basis of the proclamation? The Trump administration has claimed it did not defy a court order. If that's the case, it shouldn't be a problem to answer these really very simple questions. But today on Fox, it seemed like Trump's Attorney General, Pam Bondi, let the mask slip.

[Jonathan Capehart]

This judge has no right to ask those questions. You have one unelected federal judge trying to control foreign policies, trying to control the Alien Enemies act, which they have no business presiding over. The judge had no business, no power to do what he did.

[Eric Swalwell]

In allowing the Trump administration more time to answer questions, Judge Boasberg let it be known that his patience with the Trump administration's shifting legal maneuvers is waning. Judge Boasberg writes, quote, the court seeks this information not as a micromanaged and unnecessary judicial fishing expedition, but to determine if the government deliberately flouted its orders issued on March 15, 2025, and if so, what the consequences should be. He also invoked Chief Justice Roberts, writing, quote, as the Supreme Court has made crystal clear, the proper recourse for a party subject to an injunction it believes is legally flaw and is indeed later shown to be so flawed is appellate review, not disobedience. Judge Boasberg gave the Trump administration until 12pm tomorrow. That's noon. To respond. A hearing is scheduled for Friday. Donald Trump seemed to suggest on Fox that maybe Chief Justice Roberts didn't mean to rebuke him. My name in the statement, I just saw it quickly. He didn't mention my name. But of course, Trump's call to impeach was answered today by Republican Congressman Brandon Gill. He introduced articles of impeachment against Judge Boasberg, the fourth judge to have articles of impeachment introduced against him after ruling against the Trump administration. Gill claimed without any evidence or consequences that Judge Boasberg is, quote, guilty of high crimes and misdemeanors and should be removed from office. Democratic Congressman Eric Swalwell, who will join us in a moment, dared the MAGA Republican to actually follow through. If this guy is really in Congress, he knows he can bring his impeachment articles immediately to a vote. He won't do that because he knows myself and a few other Dems will beat back this BS on the House floor. Trump's fake co President Elon Musk came in very handy today. Elon Musk doesn't have to worry about a rebuke from the chief justice. And so Elon Musk posted about judicial impeachment 17 times in the past 24 hours. Elon Musk attacked Justice Roberts by name and called for taking a chainsaw to the federal judiciary. Musk is doing more than having an online tantrum about the judges who won't let him do whatever he wants. The New York Times reports that Musk, quote, has given the maximum hard dollar donations he could to the campaigns of seven Republicans who have either endorsed judicial impeachments or called for some form of action in response to recent rulings against the Trump administration, including a weekend decision by Judge James Erg. This new wave of threats has judges increasingly fearing for their safety. The Times also reports that Trump's call to impeach Judge Boasberg yesterday has, quote, set off a string of near instant social media taunts and threats, including images of judges being marched off in handcuffs. The threats and intimidation may have not become actual violence, but they appear to be mounting as Mr. Trump, his advisors and his supporters are questioning almost daily the legitimacy of the American legal system. The attempts at intimidation have taken many forms bomb threats, anonymous calls to dispatch police, SWAT teams to home addresses, even the delivery of pizzas, a seemingly innocuous prank, but one that carries a clear message. They know where you and your family members live, said one judge who is overseeing litigation against the Trump administration and has received a pizza delivery. As the federal courts hold the line on the law, Trump's and Musk's attempt to break the government goes on. Donald Trump and Elon Musk are spreading myths of widespread fraud in Social Security as Social Security is weighing changes that will actually reduce the number of older, infirm and rural people who can access their earned benefits. The New York Times reports that this week the Social Security Administration said that people who wanted to file for benefits or change the bank where their payments were deposited could no longer do so by phone and must first verify their identity online or go into a field office. District managers at the agency voiced concerns in internal discussions on Tuesday that carrying out these changes with fewer staff members would be unrealistic, said one employee familiar with the conversations. Of course, many older people who receive Social Security don't have Internet access or Internet fluency. Many of them are not able to drive, sometimes long distances to a field office. And of course, it will be the poorest, worst off folks who will have the hardest time. This could be a de facto way to cut earned benefits by simply reducing people's ability to Collect them. As a majority of voters disapprove of Donald Trump's handling of the economy, there was one clear message from the Federal Reserve today. Uncertainty is remarkably high. Federal Reserve Chair Jerome Powell announced that interest rates would remain unchanged amid increased economic uncertainty stemming from the impact of Donald Trump's tariffs. This comes just one day after Donald Trump fired two Democratic commissioners from the Federal Trade Commission. Rebecca Kelly Slaughter told CNBC that market stability could be eroded because of this action by the Trump administration. This is about policing the ability of the FTC to police markets and ensure honest businesses are protected instead of allowing.

[Amy Klobuchar]

Companies that lie and cheat to get ahead. And it's not just about the ftc.

[Eric Swalwell]

It's about all of the structures of.

[Jonathan Capehart]

Government that protect market stability.

[Eric Swalwell]

If I can be fired, I don't know why Jerome Powell can't be fired. And so the markets that depend on the stability provided by government institutions should be very concerned. Alvaro Bedoya warned about the lack of independence when it comes to billionaires like Elon Musk's influence on Donald Trump, saying, quote, when people hear this news, they need to not think about me. They need to think about the billionaires behind the president and his inauguration. Our first guest tonight, Democratic Senator Amy Klobuchar, is now calling on Donald Trump to reverse the illegal firings of these two commissioners. Writing in a letter, quote, this action contradicts long standing Supreme Court precedent, undermines Congress's constitutional authority to create bipartisan independent commissions, and upends more than 110 years of work at the FTC to protect consumers from deceptive practices and monopoly power. We urge you to rescind these dismissals so the FTC can get back to the people's work. Leading off our discussion tonight is Democratic Senator Amy Klobuchar of Minnesota, a member of the Senate Judiciary Committee. Senator Klobuchar, always great to see you. You sent a letter urging Trump to reinstate these fired FTC commissioners. Why is this so concerning?

[Amy Klobuchar]

So in the middle of all the horror you just went through, including the Social Security Administration being decimated and finding out that seniors won't be able to call in when they have problems with their checks, and they're going to have to go over there at whatever age 90, this thing is actually really disturbing. Last year, The FTC returned $330 million to consumers from scams and frauds. They're the ones that said no to that grocery store merger. They're the ones taking on the biggest tech companies the world has ever known with companies like Facebook and like and all of a sudden, Donald Trump has illegally fired the two Democratic appointed commissioners. It's important to know that this has been a bipartisan commission for over 100 years, Jonathan. When a Democratic president comes in, it's 3:2, Democrat, Republican. And that's kind of how it works. And they've always worked together. They don't always agree, but they work together. So it is illegal. And that's very important to know as you talk about illegal acts, because 90 years ago, in a case called Humphreys executor, the US Supreme Court said that this was legal to have these independent agencies and other agencies like it. So Donald Trump doesn't have a right to fire these two people. And actually Justice Kavanaugh, when he was Judge Kavanaugh on the D.C. circuit, commented that these kinds of commissions have been found to be legal by legal scholars and judges over the years. And you finally have the fact that when he tried to fire the two NLRB commissioners, National Labor Relations Board, right. Two federal judges said, no, they're going back. So this was illegal. I believe they're going to sue and they will be reinstated.

[Eric Swalwell]

Senator, despite Chief Justice Roberts rebuke, Trump and his allies are continuing to attack judges. Does the Chief justice have to do more? Can he do more?

[Amy Klobuchar]

Well, this was unprecedented for him to issue something, a statement like this. And this is on top of what he did at the end of last year when he said it was dangerous to attack federal rulings in a report. And now he has made it very clear that the route, if you disagree with the decision, is to appeal under the United States Constitution. And we know that a Supreme Court's ruling is final on units of government. So when they interpret the law, what Donald Trump is doing right now, not just in the case you mentioned, but he's messing around on the edges. They have obeyed court rulings in its first administration, and many right now that they are appealing. So the test is coming upon us about whether or not they actually are going to create a constitutional crisis if that happens. The court has the inherent right to hold people in contempt that violate the law. So we're going to take this one step at a time. But I have to tell you, the threats on the judges, the increased kinds of violence that we're seeing, that we've been seeing for years with one federal judge having her kid killed just for coming to the door, these things are going on right now. And he is really playing with fire. And I am glad the Chief justice made it clear what he thinks. But the obvious answer is going to be when the Supreme Court starts taking these cases on, as they have done already, where they show that they are following the law and not the wishes of a man who believes he's king with his court jester at his side. That would be billionaire Elon Musk, the billionaire jester of the Trump administration. That is not how this government was meant to be run.

[Eric Swalwell]

One more, Senator. One more question for you, Senator. Yesterday was Medicaid day of action as Trump and Musk are going after earned benefits. You recently talked with nursing home residents in Minnesota. What have you been hearing from from your constituents, especially seniors?

[Amy Klobuchar]

It's really important for people that think about Medicaid as what it really is. And that is in my state, 50% of people in nursing homes are on Medicaid. When my dad had late onset Alzheimer's and he washe had some savings, I knew the date that those savings were running out and that he was going to go on Medicaid. So many families are just like mine and know that date or their loved ones are already on Medicaid. So this is about seniors, it's about people with disabilities, it's about kids, but it's also about entire families. And that's why Medicaid is so popular. And the way they have done this House budget, the Congressional Budget Office just said there's no way they can have this budget without cutting Medicaid with the numbers they put out there. So that's why we've had 120 events. Members of the House and the Senate working together, Jonathan, as well as governors calling this out and asking people to rally to protect Medicaid.

[Eric Swalwell]

Senator Amy Klobuchar of the great state of Minnesota, thank you as always for coming to the Last Word.

[Amy Klobuchar]

Thanks. It was great. Glad you're hosting tonight. Thanks, Jonathan.

[Eric Swalwell]

Thank you. And joining us now, Democratic Congressman Eric Swalwell of California. He is a member of the Judiciary and Homeland Security Committees. Congressman Swalwell, great. Always great to see you too. Thanks for being here. Judge Boasberg is the fourth judge to have impeachment articles filed against them. But Brandon Gill didn't have a great reason. Listen to this. I have to ask you this. For impeachment, obviously you have to have high crimes misdemeanors. What crime did the judge commit? This is for usurping the executive's authority, for demeaning the impartiality of the court by making a politicized ruling enforcing a constitutional crisis. That is a high crime and misdemeanor. Congressman, your reaction to that?

[David Enrich]

I will take your word that that guy is in Congress. I've never seen him do anything but tweet out this performative nonsense, which is just a pro wrestling act to raise money and to thump your chest and pretend like you're tough. What he just said there sounds like a chatgpt answer. But you know what, Jonathan? I don't do play Congress. I do big boy Congress. So if this guy wants to bring his articles of impeachment forward, he knows how to do it. He can call for a vote immediately, and then he can meet me and Jasmine Crockett and Jamie Raskin and all of the others and have a real debate in the Judiciary Committee. And I promise you, Jonathan, we will beat it back because it's nonsense. And he can try and impeach every judge he wants. Democracy will beat him every single day.

[Eric Swalwell]

Elon Musk's reportedly throwing money at this. Are you worried about how many congressional Republican Republicans votes that might net.

[David Enrich]

They're living in absolute fear. And they tell me this. They tell me this in the Dunkin Donuts line. They tell me this at the gym. One member told me his wife said to him, don't do this to us. It's going to hurt us at church. It's going to hurt us at the country club. That's the fear that they're living in. I don't know why they want to do this job, but what I can tell you is there is a fight on the horizon in just 14 days in Wisconsin. It's a judicial race where Republicans would essentially pick up two congressional seats in the Wisconsin Supreme Court if Elon Musk is able to buy his way into victory. And so I'm working with Wisconsin Democrats to try and turn out the vote there and protect that seat.

[Eric Swalwell]

Congressman Eric Swallow. Let me just tell you one other thing this weekend because we gotta go.

[David Enrich]

Yes, Saturday. Annapolina Luna's district. David Jolly and I are going there. If they won't hold town halls, to hell with them. I'll show up and I'll talk to their voters.

[Eric Swalwell]

Congressman Eric Swalwell, thank you very much as always for coming to the Last Word. Coming up, Republican legislators are facing backlash at home, as we are seeing in a series of town halls where voters are expressing their outrage at Elon Musk's dodgy cuts. Our next guest, Democratic Congresswoman Andrea Salinas of Oregon, held a town hall last night and will tell us how Trump's cuts are affecting voters. That's next.

[Rachel Maddow]

It's President Trump's first 100 days and MSNBC's Alex Wagner will be covering it all from the front lines.

[Eric Swalwell]

What issue matters to you the most?

[Rachel Maddow]

Join her as she travels the country to talk to the people at the center of the president's policies and promises.

[Jonathan Capehart]

Do you think now that he's pardoned.

[Eric Swalwell]

Everybody he can count on this group of people again?

[Rachel Maddow]

Search for Trumpland with Alex Wagner wherever you're listening and follow subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts to listen ad free. Stay up to date on the biggest issues of the day with the MSNBC Daily Newsletter. Each morning you'll get analysis by experts you trust, video highlights from your favorite shows.

[Jonathan Capehart]

I do think it's worth being very clear eyed, very realistic about what's going on here.

[Rachel Maddow]

Previews of our podcasts and documentaries, plus written perspectives from the newsmakers themselves, all sent directly to your inbox each morning. Get the best of MSNBC all in one place. Sign up for msnbc [e-mail] the first 100 days bills are passed, executive orders are signed, and presidents. And for Donald Trump's first 100 days, Rachel Maddow is on MSNBC five nights a week.

[Jonathan Capehart]

Now is the time, so we're gonna.

[Rachel Maddow]

Do it, providing her unique insight and analysis during this critical time.

[Jonathan Capehart]

How do we strategically align ourselves to this moment of information, this moment of transition in our country?

[Rachel Maddow]

The Rachel Maddow show, weeknights at 9pm Eastern on MSNBC.

[Eric Swalwell]

This is how Republican Harriet Hageman of Wyoming began her town hall just a few hours ago.

[Jonathan Capehart]

The opportunity to do town halls, because it lets me come here, give you an update on what I'm doing back in Washington, D.C. and then I'm going to give you an opportunity to ask me questions before we get there. However, I get it that there are people here who dislike me, but there's also people here. But there are also people here who want to hear what I have to say. And if you have so little respect for our process and for our for what we are in this country.

[Eric Swalwell]

That.

[Jonathan Capehart]

I would ask.

[Eric Swalwell]

But they didn't leave. Voters in red states like Congresswoman Hageman's are frustrated and using that frustration to confront their Republican lawmakers. And in Wyoming, where Liz Cheney was seen as too liberal to keep her seat, voters are booing Elon Musk.

[Jonathan Capehart]

I voted in favor of the continuing resolution, or CR, which extends funding through the fiscal year until September 30th. It keeps the lights on for President Trump and Doge to continue their work.

[Eric Swalwell]

Congresswoman Hageman's town hall was held tonight in Laramie, where more than 25 years ago, two men targeted gay college student Matthew Shepard. They tortured him, tied him to a fence and left him for dead. The horrific story and the effort to confront the deadly bigotry was made into an award winning play and film, the Laramie Project. It is the reason millions of people know the town of Laramie. And here is how Congresswoman Hageman in Laramie responded to a question about trans and non binary people.

[Jonathan Capehart]

This person would like to know how I am going to help protect the rights of trans and non binary people. I don't even know what that means.

[Eric Swalwell]

Joining us now, Democratic Congresswoman Andrea Salinas of Oregon. Congresswoman, thank you for being here. You held an in person town hall yesterday. What concerns did your constituents raise?

[Andrea Salinas]

Thank you, Jonathan. My constituents are outraged right now. They're outraged, they're scared. They're really concerned about things like Medicaid, Social Security, Medicare going away. I represent a really working class district here in the Willamette Valley of Oregon. These are people who work hard every single day. People who are farmers, farm workers, people who are trying to raise their kids, trying to make ends meet, not being able to afford food because of the sky high prices of eggs and just everyday products. And we also have a lot of manufacturing here in this district. So it's a very working class district. And they're outraged right now. They're so angry that Donald Trump, our president, would hand over the keys to an unelected, unconfirmed Elon Musk, who is a billionaire who wants to take away these really critical programs and critical health care.

[Eric Swalwell]

What would you say to your Republican colleagues who've been avoiding town halls?

[Andrea Salinas]

Well, I went. The town hall I held last night was in a very red part of my district. I did not even win this district. And I got cheers every time I spoke out and basically said all the decisions I am making are based on what I'm hearing. I'm hearing from my growers who are losing out on USDA, U.S. department of Agriculture loan access, on small business access. Wineries are worried about the tariffs that they're seeing. So I would tell Republicans to stand up, show up and then vote for their constituents. But they need to be heard first and Republicans need to listen to them because they're going to be in a world of hurt in a couple of years.

[Eric Swalwell]

Congresswoman, are any of the Trump voters having buyer's remorse, you think?

[Andrea Salinas]

I actually think they are. As I mentioned, I went to a town hall and we had a few hundred people at this town Hall. And for the most part, I heard cheers. And I did not hear the same thing that Congresswoman Hagerman heard at her town hall in Laramie. And I know there were folks who definitely voted for Trump. And I said that, and I said, I do believe that people who voted for Trump were lied to. They were sold a bag of goods that was not, it was not honest. He talked about some of the same things I talked about during the campaign cycle. He talked about lowering costs, bringing down the cost of everyday items. That is not happening when we know chips manufacturing may not continue here in the United States the way Congress had intended. We know that, again, these tariff wars that are going on are only going to increase those prices. And we, we produce a lot of them here, right here in my district and here in Oregon. And so I think people are starting to realize and wake up farmers and growers across the United States who want a strong farm bill, want those price supports, want to pass down their farm to the next generation. They're worried. They're just as worried as people who are in the manufacturing sectors. And so, yeah, they feel lied to. I do think there's remorse. I think we need to give them the space to say that, too.

[Eric Swalwell]

Congressman, speaking of tariffs, Donald Trump's tariffs threats on wine from Europe is expected to make wine in Oregon more expensive. I heard you say you're in Willamette, which has great wine, by the way. I will say Axios interviewed the founder of Ribbon Ridge Winery in Newburgh, Oregon, and he said, quote, wine shouldn't be upon an international push and shove trade competition. It should represent a celebratory, sustainable product that brings us together at the table. Harry Peterson Nedry, the founder of Ribbon Ridge Winery in Newburgh, told Axios this damage is not only to winery producers, but consumers and the broader network of businesses such as restaurants, retailers and distributors. He said, can you talk briefly about the impact tariffs, specifically tariffs will have on your district?

[Andrea Salinas]

It will crush a community like the Willamette Valley. I've been telling folks, I heard the day that Trump declared that he was putting 25% tariffs on Canada and Mexico. I was on, I was getting ready to board my flight out to Washington, D.C. from Oregon and I started getting, my phone started blowing up. It was several of my wineries, they were so worried. And they said, Look, Andrea, 50% of our export exported wine goes to Canada. We're getting phone calls right now from Canadians basically telling us we're taking product off the shelf, we are canceling contracts, we are going to be retaliatory and make sure that you hurt as well. And so and knowing that when 50% of the wine that is produced in Oregon goes to Canada, that is clearly going to hurt. And as you mentioned, and as Ribbon Ridge Winery mentioned, it's not going to be just the wineries themselves. It's the entire supply chain. It's the ecosystem. It is these small communities that rely on these businesses, on the work and all of the other supply chains that support these businesses. This is a community here in the Willamette Valley that is going to be crushed by this.

[Eric Swalwell]

Congresswoman Andrea Salinas of Oregon, thank you very much for coming to the Last Word.

[Andrea Salinas]

Thank you, Jonathan.

[Eric Swalwell]

And coming up, Donald Trump's Day one promise was to end the war in Ukraine. The war is still not over as Donald Trump tries to make it seem like there is an end in sight with phone calls with Vladimir Putin and Volodymyr Zelensky. But our next guest says that Putin isn't planning any sort of peace. Mikhail Zegar, the founder of Russia's only independent news station, joins us next.

[Rachel Maddow]

Stay connected with the MSNBC app bringing you breaking news and analysis anytime, anywhere. Watch your favorite shows live, read live blogs and in depth essays and listen to coverage as it unfolds. Go beyond the what to understand the why. Download the app [e-mail] apparently.

[Andrea Salinas]

Does that mean all intelligence sharing will continue? The White House is rejecting Russia's request. Intelligence sharing in terms of defense for Ukraine will continue to be shared.

[Eric Swalwell]

Today, the White House said America's intelligence community is continuing to share information with Ukraine despite Vladimir Putin's demand against it as a condition for a 30 day ceasefire. This comes after President Trump's phone call this morning with Ukrainian President Zelensky in which Zelensky agreed to pause airstrikes on energy facilities in Russia. Russia has claimed it would do the same. We'll see if Putin keeps his word. But there's no doubt Trump so far has failed to convince Putin to end the war, despite Trump's effort to make it seem like there's momentum to the talks. The Wall Street Journal editorial board writes strip away the diplomatic pieties and the main result is that Mr. Putin didn't agree to Mr. Trump's 30 day ceasefire, while Ukraine's Volodymyr Zelensky did. Have we figured out yet who's the real obstacle to peace? Mr. Trump is struggling to see Mr. Putin for the aggressor. He is one that previous presidents have failed to tame via talks. It's a good sign. Mr. Trump didn't concede to Mr. Putin's demands in this call, but the Russian dictator will play rough. He knows he can sustain more losses on the battlefield and that Mr. Trump has promised voters he'll deliver peace. Mr. Trump's legacy would be permanently damaged by an outcome that the world perceives as a victory for Mr. Putin. US public opinion isn't sold on Mr. Trump's bet, with more than 75% of Americans saying in a survey this month they're concerned that Mr. Putin wouldn't honor a peace deal, including 69% of Republicans. For all the noise of negotiations, what matters are the terms of a peace deal, CNBC reports. Today in Ukraine, regional authorities in the northeastern region of Sumy said that local hospitals sustained damage during massive air attacks by Russian drones. Kyiv officials, meanwhile, reported 18 residences, 20 townhouse apartments, and 19 vehicles were harmed during an overnight attack. In a social media post this evening, President Zelensky said, it is such night attacks by Russia that destroy our energy, our infrastructure, the normal life of Ukrainians, and the fact that this night was no exception indicates that we must continue to put pressure on Russia for the sake of peace. Our next guest writes, putin won't end the war. He can't afford to. Even if one were to come about, it wouldn't solve much. Given it lacks American security guarantees, Russia could easily provoke an incident, accuse Ukraine of violating the truce, and immediately retake abandoned positions stronger than ever. It's hard to say how the Trump administration might respond to a refused or broken ceasefire, but we should be clear about what Mr. Putin is planning. It's not peace. Joining us now is Mikhail Zeiger, founding editor in chief of dost, Russia's only independent news station. He is author of the Substack newsletter, the Last Pioneer, and a columnist for Der Spiegel. Mikhail, thank you very much for being here. What is Putin's political calculation around this war? Continuing it versus ending it?

[Mikhail Zieger]

Thank you for having me. You know, it's very clear that he thinks that he's got momentum and that he cannot lose the chance to go ahead and to lose this war. He has the feeling that he is stronger. He's much stronger than Ukrainians. And, you know, during the last month, in several speeches, he compared the situation, or somehow he started lecturing his audience about the First World War. And he compared the current situation to the last months of the First World War, saying that Russia was robbed of its deserved victory, so by premature ceasefire. So obviously, he is not ashamed of publicly admitting it while in Russia that he doesn't want any kind of ceasefire. He wants victory.

[Eric Swalwell]

What's Putin's support like in Russia now? Is it stronger, weaker? As the war continues and with Trump return to power?

[Mikhail Zieger]

We don't have any statistics. And yes, obviously while the war is going on, Putin can control the country, he can control everyone because everyone is really afraid. The war has become the unique mechanism to control the country, including the elites, including his inner circle. And I think he knows that. And that's one of the main and very important reasons for him not to think of ending this war. Because it will be much more dangerous for him if the army comes back, if the war veterans after the end of the war starts speaking up, so called systemic liberals, people from his elite big business are going to be very unhappy with everything what's happening. So there is the solution not to stop this war. Because everyone is going to be terrified and mobilized at the same time as they are now.

[Eric Swalwell]

Do people inside Russia believe Trump is a deal making master playing three dimensional chess with Putin? Do they see the Trump Putin power relationship?

[Mikhail Zieger]

I would say that there are two camps and both of them are very funny. The biggest one, somehow there is an alliance of Russian propaganda and Russian middle class. Russian big business see that as an opportunity because for many people, if there is a chance to bring the situation back to pre war conditions to the early 2022, it will be the best case scenario. And sometimes Russian propagandists started praising Donald Trump and calling him a reliable partner. There is an installation erected next to American Embassy in Moscow. We are huge plastic ladders. We are together in white, red and blue colors of Russian flag and American flag as well. So a lot of people are really happy with that or they are instructed to be happy. But there is a huge part of the population who probably who are so brainwashed by so many years of anti American propaganda and who distrust America that much. So they suspect a lot. And basically they had a very important argument on their side this morning because the consequences of the last conversations between Volodymyr Zelenskyy and Donald Trump were not really optimistic for Russians. Because when Donald Trump offered Zelenskyy to get all Ukrainian energy infrastructure and Ukrainian nuclear power stations under American control and American ownership, that was a very important sign for many Russians. Which means actually Trump is much more serious than he was considered to be by many Russians.

[Eric Swalwell]

Mikhail Zieger, thank you very much for coming to the last word.

[Mikhail Zieger]

Thank you for having me.

[Eric Swalwell]

And coming up, Donald Trump has begun his second term by ramping up attacks on journalists and the media. What does that mean for First Amendment freedoms guaranteed for all Americans? That's next. What does a second Donald Trump term mean for the freedoms protected in the First Amendment? Freedom of speech, freedom of the press, the freedoms of religion to protest peacefully and to petition the government for a redress of grievances. Our next guest, New York Times business investigations editor David Enrich, examines that question in his new book, Murder the Fear, the First Amendment and A Secret Campaign to Protect the Powerful. Much of this begins with the landmark Supreme Court case New York Times versus Sullivan. From 1964. The case was born, excuse me, the case was born out of the civil rights movement and became a cornerstone of press freedom in the United States, protecting journalists ability to investigate public figures without getting buried under frivolous libel lawsuits. Previewing the book in a recent piece for the New York Times for the New York Times Magazine in which writes for decades, support for Sullivan and the court's ensuing libel decisions was widespread across the political spectrum. As recently as 2010, Congress passed a law that endorsed the full extent of free speech protections to authors and publishers that are available in the United States and criticized the weaker protections against libel lawsuits that exist in other countries. In a barely recognizable act of bipartisan unity, not a single lawmaker in either chamber voted against the legislation. But beneath the surface, dissent was building. David Enrich is the Business Investigations editor of the New York Times and best selling author of Dark Towers and Servants of the Damned. Again, the new book is Murder the Fear, the First Amendment and A Secret Campaign to Protect the Powerful. Thank you very much for being here. We spent a lot of time on this show tonight talking about Donald Trump's fight with the federal courts. Your focus here is on his fight with the so called fourth estate US Journalists. What's caught your attention so far in Trump's second term?

[H]

I think the biggest thing is that we all grew pretty accustomed to the fiery and kind of incendiary rhetoric that Trump was using against his perceived enemies in the first term. And what's really struck me in the first two months of this term is how that rhetoric has really turned into action. And, and with the media, we've seen that with him really openly declaring war against news outlets. And that's kind of the story I tell in the Book of is how we got here and how this animosity has been building up in the right for decades. And it's finally kind of crescendoing and beginning to pose a real threat, I think, to the ability of journalists and members of the public to scrutinize the richest and powerful people in this country.

[Eric Swalwell]

You spotlight the 1964 unanimous Supreme Court decision in Times v. Sullivan. In this book, explain to those who might not be familiar with why and how it relates to everything we're seeing right now.

[H]

Well, this decision basically protects journalists and members of the public and their ability to write and investigate and criticize powerful people without worrying that if they make an honest mistake, they might get sued into oblivion. So people like Trump and many of his allies are trying to water down those legal protections, which will just basically make it much easier for them to not only sue people who criticize them, but also to make threats that will have to be taken seriously. And really, I think it would be an effort, it's already becoming an effort basically to silence people who are standing up to those in positions of power and writing things or saying things that are really critical.

[Eric Swalwell]

David Enrich, author of the new book Murder the Threats, Intimidation and A Secret Campaign to Protect the Powerful. David, thank you for joining us this evening.

[H]

Thanks for having me.

[Eric Swalwell]

And we'll be right back. And that is tonight's last word.

[Rachel Maddow]

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[Jonathan Capehart]

We're seeing a really radical effort to change the American system of government.

[Rachel Maddow]

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