← The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell
The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell
Trump DOJ indicts former FBI director James Comey
00:35:07
Tonight on The Last Word: Former FBI director James Comey responds to his Trump DOJ indictment: “I’m innocent. So let’s have a trial.” Andrew Weissmann, Sen. Amy Klobuchar, Rep. Daniel Goldman, Barbara McQuade, and Ken Dilanian join Lawrence O’Donnell.
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A
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B
Ugh.
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After eight hours of this, I have earned my wine.
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You know what I'm saying?
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C
The Last Word with Lawrence o' Donnell starts right now.
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D
Hey, Lawrence.
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A
Hey, Jen. We're going to continue the breaking news coverage of the Comey indictment during this hour. It is a turn that is unlike anything we've ever seen prior to the era of Donald Trump.
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C
No question about it. Looking forward to watching your coverage.
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A
Thanks, John. Thank you. Well, now the phrase trumped up charges has new meaning. Donald Trump has delivered what is literally the thinnest federal indictment you will ever see. It amounts to two pages only because the two counts so called in this thin indictment are the same count, the same so called crime, which we will show you in a moment. James Comey's testimony to the Senate. And so they use that same sentence that James Comey gave in his testimony to create these two different so called counts. The first count is what this indictment calls that he made materially false and fictitious fraudulent statement to the United States Senate. That is not something that Donald Trump has ever taken seriously before. Now and then they use that same so called false statement to constitute an obstruction charge. Obstruction of the United States Senate. That's what this indictment is. We've literally never seen anything like it in any way either one of those counts. James Comey responded to the indictment tonight with this video. My family and I have known for years that there are costs to standing up to Donald Trump, but we couldn't imagine ourselves living any other way. We will not live on our knees. And you shouldn't either. Somebody that I love dearly recently said that fear is the tool of a tyrant. And she's right. But I'm not afraid, and I hope you're not either. I hope instead you are engaged, you are paying attention, and you will vote like your beloved country depends upon it, which it does. My heart is broken for the Department of Justice, but I have great confidence in the federal judicial system and I'm innocent. So let's have a trial and keep the faith. When James Comey referred to his family in that statement, he obviously is including his daughter. Maureen Comey, former federal prosecutor who was fired by Donald Trump and Donald Trump's Justice Department. She was the lead prosecutor in the Ghislaine Maxwell prosecution. She is the federal prosecutor. Who knows, who knew more about Ghislaine Maxwell and her prosecution than anyone else. And Ghislaine Maxwell's co conspirator in sex trafficking, Jeffrey Epstein. Donald Trump made sure that she was fired before Donald Trump sent his criminal defense lawyer, his personal criminal defense lawyer to Florida to interview Ghislaine Maxwell. Now that Donald Trump's personal criminal defense lawyer is his deputy attorney general, he had to make sure that Maureen Comey was out of the way before he did that. That's who, that's one of the people James Comey referred to tonight in that video statement. And that quote, that line that he used, fear is the tool of a tyrant, is what his daughter, Maureen Comey, said when she was fired by the Justice Department. In an email to her colleagues, she said, if a career prosecutor can be fired without reason, fear may seep into the decisions who remain. Do not let that happen. Fear is the tool of a tyrant, wielded to suppress independent thought. Instead of fear, let this moment fuel the fire that already burns at the heart of this place. A fire of righteous indignation at abuses of power, of commitment to seek justice for victims, of dedication to truth above all else. Donald Trump does not often delete social media posts. That is the rarest thing Donald Trump can do with a social media post. But he did it. He did it with the social media post in which he ordered his attorney general to bring this prosecution. Donald Trump deleted this post, which will be brought to the attention of the judge in this case, a judge who was appointed by President Biden who has this case tonight. This is the one that Donald Trump deleted to his attorney general publicly. Pam, I have reviewed over 30 statements and posts saying that. Essentially, same old story as last time. All talk, no action, nothing is being done. What About Comey, Adam Shifty, Schiff, Letitia, they're all guilty as hell. And there is Donald Trump pronouncing guilt on James Comey while he's ordering his attorney General to make James Comey a criminal defendant. There's Donald Trump telling all of those grand jurors who heard this case, all of them, that James Comey is guilty as hell. That's Donald Trump telling the entire jury pool that will be considered for this case in the Eastern District of Virginia that James Comey is guilty as hell. That is something that no president has ever done before. Donald Trump. There was a moment when President Richard Nixon let slip publicly that he thought Charles Manson was guilty of those mass murders in Los Angeles. And President Nixon had to immediately retract that in a statement in writing for fear that that would create a mistrial in the prosecution of Charles Manson and for fear that that would create prejudicial publicity that could harm Charles Manson ever getting a free trial, a fair trial in this country. Donald Trump has thrown that convention aside with his declaration that James Comey was guilty before James Comey was indicted. This is now all about, all about this exchange that James Comey had with Senator Rafael Cruz in the Senate Judiciary Committee almost exactly five years ago tonight. Here is that exchange in its entirety. This is the entire body of evidence in this case. Here it is.
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B
On May 3, 2017, in this committee, Chairman Grassley asked you point blank, quote, have you ever been an anonymous source in news reports about matters relating to the Trump investigation or the Clinton investigation? You responded under oath, quote, never. He then asked you, quote, have you ever authorized someone else at the FBI to be an anonymous source in news reports about the Trump investigation or the Clinton administration? You responded, again under oath, no. Now, as you know, Mr. McCabe, who works for you, has publicly and repeatedly stated that he leaked information to the Wall Street Journal and that you were directly aware of it and that you directly authorized it. Now, what Mr. McCabe is saying and what you testified to this committee cannot both be true. One or the other is false. Who's telling the truth?
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A
I can only speak to my testimony. I stand by what the testimony you summarized that I gave in May of 2017.
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B
So your testimony is you've never authorized anyone to leak, and Mr. McCabe, if he says contrary, is not telling the.
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A
Truth, is that correct? Again, I'm not going to characterize Andy's testimony, but mine is the same.
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C
Today.
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A
The problem for Donald Trump and his inexperienced new prosecutor leading this prosecution is that the Department of Justice in Their inspector general's investigation of this exact issue found that James Comey was indeed telling the truth. Here is what the Inspector general's report has to say about exactly what Senator Cruz was just asking about. The Inspector General says, we found that in late October 2016, McCabe authorized special counsel to discuss with Wall Street Journal reporter Devlin Barrett issues related to the FBI's Clinton foundation investigation. So there's the inspector general report saying, we found that McCabe authorized the discussion with the Wall Street Journal. McCabe authorized those two words. The jury in this case is going to see those two words. The grand jury in this case is very unlikely to ever have been presented with a single word of what you're about to hear right now. It is very unlikely that they ever showed the grand jury in this case the Inspector General's report, which goes on to say, in particular, McCabe authorized special counsel to disclose to Barrett the contents of a telephone call that had occurred on August 12, 2016, between McCabe and then principal Associate Deputy Attorney General. We found that in a conversation with then Director Comey shortly after the Wall Street Journal article was published, McCabe lacked candor when he told Comey or made statements that led Comey to believe that McCabe had not authorized the disclosure and did not know who did. We also found that on May 9, 2017, when questioned under oath by FBI agents from the inspector general's office, McCabe lacked candor when he told the agents that he had not authorized the disclosure to the Wall Street Journal and did not know who did. We additionally found that on November 29, 2017, when questioned under oath by the Inspector General in a recorded interview during which he contradicted his prior statements by acknowledging that he had authorized the disclosure to the Wall Street Journal, McCabe lacked candor when he stated that he told Comey on October 31, 2016, that he had authorized the disclosure to the Wall Street Journal. And so there is the evidence that was no doubt withheld and deliberately withheld from this grand jury. It is inconceivable that a grand jury could read those passages of the Inspector General's report and then say that James Comey was somehow not telling the truth. Leading off our discussion tonight, Andrew Weissman, former Chief of the Criminal Division for the Eastern District of New York. He's a former FBI General counsel and an MSNBC legal analyst. Andrew, there's so much to say about this. I just want to open your microphone and let you go.
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C
Sure. Well, I want to sort of start where you started, which is sort of putting this in perspective. Can we just go back to a time when Loretta lynch was the subject of a firestorm in the media simply because Anna Tarmac, when she was with her husband and Secret Service was President Bill Clinton met with her to say hello and the sort of left and the right and everybody was saying this is outrageous. There's either impropriety or at the very least an appearance of impropriety simply for the meeting. And here you have a process that is. What's the sort of correct term stinks to high heaven. It is just not how our country is supposed to work where you remove somebody who is an experienced person, person who says, I'm not going to do this because the, the reporting is. There's insufficient evidence and you put somebody in who is there for a New York minute. She has no criminal experience, she's not been a prosecutor. She doesn't meet with people, examine the evidence. There's no time to do that. And then just brings this charge. I mean, the. It tells you just how far we've come and the hypocrisy in terms of where we. We've come. And then the other is just quickly to say, with respect to Senator Cruz really blew it in that statement. He wants to make it seem like there is a direct contradiction between James Comey and Andy McCabe. There is not. Andy McCabe did not say, and nowhere that I know of did he say that he was authorized beforehand by James Comey to release information to any newspaper. That's not what Andy McCabe said, nor do I find it likely that this administration is going to be thinking Andy McCabe is going to be a witness for the government since they tried to indict him but couldn't get a grand jury to do it. I mean, so, so, you know, the idea that this would be their main witness against James Comey, it seems fanciful, but it really is just not the case that when Senator Cruz is saying, you know, there's this direct contradiction that is not in the record, that is not something that is going to be able to be established. And so if that is what this is based on, I can easily see James Comey asking for an immediate trial and he could get one as soon as 30 days. Remember, in the Eastern District of Virginia, it's known as the rocket docket. And that is because the government is entitled to very fast trials there. Well, this is now goose and gander time, which is that a defense position can be, we want to go to trial quickly. And if that's what this is based on don't be surprised if James Comey and his legal team, his very experienced legal team, asked for a quick trial.
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A
So, Andrew, on venue, it's in the Eastern District of Virginia because that's where James Comey was that day during COVID in September of 2020 when he was testifying. He was testify at home. So is that why the trial is there?
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C
Yeah, absolutely. So the Constitution requires that you bring trials where the crime occurred. And when you've got sort of false statements or perjury charges, you look at where the person was. Now, typically when you're testifying before Congress, you're going to be in Congress and the case would be brought in the District of Columbia. But here, because of COVID you have James Comey testifying from home, which is in Virginia, which is why the case is brought there.
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A
What are the limitations on federal grand jurors once their service is complete? We saw in Georgia, the grand jury in that Trump investigation. Many of them just decided to go public and talk about the experience.
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C
Very, very different in the federal system. When that happened, the Georgia state system, I had to do some quick research and talk to people. That was surprising to me. That is not supposed to happen. There's supposed to be secrecy in the grand jury. The grand jurors are actually would commit a crime if they were to talk about what happened. Deliberations are private and they're sealed. So that is something I'd find very, very surprising if any grand juror spoke about what happened.
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A
Andrew Weissman, please stay with us for more. We're joined now by phone by Democratic Senator Amy Klobuchar of Minnesota. She's a member of the Senate Judiciary Committee and she was there when it happened in that hearing in September 2020. Senator Klobuchar, that question and answer with thank you for joining us. Senator, that question and answer with Ted Cruz seems to be the entire case.
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D
That's what we know right now. But there's something else we know, and that is that Donald Trump ordered this prosecution. And I remember you and I have talked at length about, you know, as a former prosecutor and Pam Bonney should know this, and she said it in her own hearing that you have to be independent. Politics will not play a part. And that is what she actually said to me when I asked her these questions. And instead, what does Trump do? It doesn't matter that he deleted his post. He actually ordered the prosecution. He fired the US Attorney who Senator Warner described the original US Attorney as a staunch Republican. And he appointed, installed a White House aide to overrule career prosecutors. And so I appreciated that you led with Jim Comey, who is, by the way, my law school classmate, respected by so many people in our class, Democrats and Republicans alike. Not everyone agrees with every decision he made, that's for certain. But he is someone that took to the air today and literally said, quoting his own daughter, that fear is the tool of a tyrant. And he talks about his faith in the justice system, and he basically says, so let's have a trial. And I'm glad he took it on like that, because that's what you've got to do with someone like Donald Trump.
- [19:25]
A
Senator, the notion that the Trump Justice Department is now desperately concerned with anyone coming before the United States Senate, in a committee, in the Judiciary Committee, and saying anything that isn't completely accurate is a whole new standard for them. How will they ever allow Robert Kennedy Jr. To testify again?
- [19:53]
D
Completely? Because this is what they've decided to focus on. Even though we know what this is. He's got an enemies list. It's not just Jim Comey. He's also repeatedly gone after my colleague Adam Schiff. He goes after the Federal Reserve Governor, Lisa Cook. He goes after Letitia James, the Attorney General of New York. And this is what he does. He goes after them, and then he directs his own attorney to do that. I don't know. You know, when you are the prosecutor in a case, you take an oath. And Pam Bondi knows this, and certainly the U.S. attorney that stepped down over this, he knew it. You take an oath that you're going to represent not the president, but the United States of America. And I always go back to the original case where we all knew this is going to be something like we've never seen before in any president. When they focused on pushing the New York prosecutors, the federal prosecutors, to get rid of the Eric Adams case. And you remember there what Hagen Scott said, and he was a Roberts Justice, Roberts clerk, a Kavanaugh clerk, and he said a veteran. I expect you will eventually find someone who is enough of a fool or enough of a coward to file your motion, but it was never going to be me. And what you're going to see in the coming days, Lawrence, is just as you saw Ty Cobb, who was a former Trump White House attorney, stand up and say, we have a president for the first time in history, ordering his AG to indict his enemies. And the AG, instead of being the independent force that she's supposed to be saying, yes, sir, is what she's saying. How fast can I get that done for you. That's one of his former attorneys. I think you're going to see a lot of people standing up who care about our country, who care about the justice system to call this.
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A
Senator. Thank you so much for reminding us of that quote by that principled prosecutor in the Southern District of New York when he resigned. Senator Amy Klobuchar, thank you for joining our live coverage tonight.
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D
Thank you, Lawrence.
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A
And former Southern District of New York federal prosecutor now New York Congressman Dan Goldman will join us next with our breaking news coverage of the indictment of James Comey continuing after this break.
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E
What's poppin listeners? I'm Lacey Mosley, host of the podcast Scam Goddess. The show that's an ode to fraud and all those who practice it. Each week I talk with very special guests about the scammiest scammers of all time. Wanna know about the fake errors? We got em. What about a career con man? We've got them too. Guys that will wine and dine you and then steal all your coins. Oh, you know they are represented. Cause matters. I'm joined by guests like Nicole Byer, Ira Madison iii, Conan o' Brien and more. Join the congregation and listen to Scam Goddess wherever you get your podcasts. Did you know Tide has been upgraded to provide an even better clean in cold water. Tide is specifically designed to fight any stain you throw at it. Even in cold butter. Yep. Chocolate ice cream.
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Apply in minutes@ondeck.com depending on certain loan attributes. Your business loan may be issued by On Deck or Celtic Bank. On Deck does not lend to North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval. The case that should be called Donald Trump versus James Comey has been randomly assigned to Federal Judge Michael Nakmanoff, who was appointed by President Biden. The judge in the case, Judge Nakhonoff, has scheduled an arraignment for Thursday, October 9th at 10:00am in the Alexandria, Virginia courtroom when James Comey will first appear in court in that case. Joining us now is Democratic Congressman Daniel Goldman of New York. He's a member of the House Judiciary Committee with jurisdiction over the Trump Justice Department. And he's a former federal prosecutor in the Southern District of New York. Congressman Goldman, what questions would you have for the Attorney General and her next appearance before your committee?
- [24:52]
B
Well, I would like to know the conversations that she had with Donald Trump. We know about the direct message where he told her that she needs to charge James Comey with making false statements. We then saw the U.S. attorney under her refuse to charge the case because it did not meet the standards of professional responsibility and the rules of professional practice in the Department of Justice. Then Donald Trump hired yet another personal attorney of his, a former personal attorney. So you've got Pam Bondi, a former personal attorney, Todd Blanche, former personal attorney. Emil Bovet, former personal attorney, and now Alina Haba in New Jersey. And now Lindsey Halligan, who's an insurance lawyer, has no idea how to prosecute a case solely to prosecute this. So what I want Pam Bondi to explain, and I don't want to hear about the facts in the law because the facts of this case are dead ass losers. I want to understand what she said to Lindsey Halligan before she took over. And I want to understand how you can make any kind of colorable argument that this is not a political persecution and a revengeful, vindictive, malicious prosecution against someone who's a political enemy of Donald Trump that he directed the Department of Justice to charge. It is unconscionable that we would have a President of the United States direct his Attorney General to criminally charge a political adversary of his when the evidence is so clearly not there, to the point where even a grand jury, which notoriously indicts ham sandwiches, refused to indict one of the false statement account accounts. And at least two of the grand jurors said no to this one that was charged.
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A
So in your time as a federal prosecutor, if you had been publicly ordered by the President of the United States to bring a prosecution and you did, what would you expect to hear from the judge when you showed up in court?
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B
I, boy, I can't even imagine. It just is. It's not something that I would have ever imagined or considered. We didn't get what are called no true bills. We didn't get a grand jury rejecting an indictment. I mean, that just is unheard of. That never happens. We didn't have a scenario where none of the career prosecutors would bring this case to the grand jury, where the actual experienced U.S. attorney refused to do it. And so Lindsey Halligan, the partisan hack who Donald Trump just hired for this sole purpose, had to actually go into the grand jury room to present the evidence. I would love to see that transcript. So the judge is going to have no patience for any of this. And I think James Comey's right. It's a really, really sad day for the Department of Justice. And it's pretty remarkable that he, having been charged in a completely inappropriate way, even recognizes what a terrible, terrible day it is for the Department of Justice. But as he said, he put his faith in the federal judiciary. I don't think there's any question this probably won't get to trial based on vindictive prosecution. But even if it gets to trial, it is so clearly a factual loser for many reasons.
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A
Congressman Dan Goldman, thank you very much for joining us in this coverage tonight.
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B
Thanks, Lars.
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A
And Andrew Weissman is back with us. Andrew, procedurally here, what are the hurdles that the prosecution has to get over in order to get this just to the point where the jury is deliberating over a verdict?
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C
Well, at trial, they have to present in what's called their case in chief, that is their time to present evidence. They have to present proof beyond a reasonable doubt at the close of the that part of the case. If the judge does not think that any reasonable jury could find guilt, then the judge will not let it go further and can actually say the case is over. And then, of course, the defense, if that, you know, goes forward, defense is entitled to, to go forward. But even before that, there will be lots of motions that are made by James Comey, including, as Dan pointed out, vindictive prosecution. There could be one for outrageous government conduct. There'll be there, there are a series of motions that will be made. But this is one, as I mentioned, I really can imagine because this is the rocket docket in the Eastern District of Virginia. I can really imagine this going quite quickly and blowing up in Donald Trump's face. My analogy is we saw what happened with Jimmy Kimmel where the country would not stand for it, and it sort of blew up and became sort of a real black eye for the administration in terms of attacking the First Amendment. And, you know, we're at a terrible, terrible low moment. And I will say not just for the Department of Justice, but for the country in terms of the rule of law. But it really could be that we see in just a matter of weeks this going to turning around in a very different way. My quick analogy is, remember in Trump 1.0, the appointment of John Durham. Well, John Durham at least was a career prosecutor who knew how to prosecute cases. Well. He also was targeting Donald Trump's enemies or perceived enemies. He brought two cases and he managed to do the following. He managed to get 24 jurors, all 24, to disagree with him and to acquit both defendants. That takes a unanimous jury twice, two separate cases. And that was after an actual investigation by a career person. So, you know, I think James Comey, we don't know what the facts are here to be sure. We don't know what, if anything, they have. But we do have a precedent from Trump 1.0 of seeing something really blow up in their faces.
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A
Andrew, please stay with us. I want to ask about prejudicial, pretrial publicity, which used to be something that presidents used to take very seriously, as did prosecutors. They didn't say things. Here's Donald Trump tonight calling tonight after the indictment comes out saying James Comey is one of the worst human beings in this country. That certainly reads like prejudicial, pretrial publicity. We'll get to that after this break with Andrew Weissman and more expert guests joining us on this night with the indictment by Donald Trump and his Justice Department of former FBI Director James Comey. We'll be right back.
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E
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- [34:16]
F
We understand that James Comey is preparing to surrender tomorrow morning for booking and processing, presumably in Alexandria, either at an FBI office or a courthouse. That's just a pro forma thing. He'll be released, presumably on his own recognizance, and then, as you said, he'll have a first appearance before Judge Nachmanoff at some later time. And just listening to him there in that prerecorded video, it's a reminder that James Comey is a very charismatic talker and he loves the camera. And I covered him when he was FBI director. He would have roundtables with reporters and answer every question. He was completely unafraid of extemporaneously talking to the press. He's a formidable opponent for this administration. They've now given him a giant megaphone, perhaps at their peril. And Lawrence, I also just want to point out that Senator Lindsey Graham is on Fox tonight in reacting to this indictment, and he talked for about five minutes about what he thinks are his grievances about the Trump Russia investigation and how he believes that James Comey misled the FISA court or the FBI through James Comey. And it's just an example to me of how the MAGA movement thinks that this is about something else. They really want this to be about holding people accountable for the Trump Russia investigation. But of course, course, special counsel John Durham already investigated that and was not able to charge anyone. And so now they've got this other thing, this thin Reid charging James Comey with misleading Congress. But that's not what Lindsey Graham's talking about, because he doesn't really think that's important. What he cares about is something that James Comey can't be charged with because he didn't do anything wrong. He didn't do anything criminal with regard to the Trump Russia investigation. And I just think that's important to point out because, you know, every day on social media, Cash Patel and Pam Bondi are excited excoriated on the right because they haven't arrested James Comey or John Brennan. And this is the first step in that sort of fantasy world where these people are being brought to justice on the orders of Donald Trump.
- [36:19]
A
Yeah, Barbara, great point by Ken. This indictment being basically one about one line of testimony in a Senate hearing, in effect, is the Trump team saying James Comey has done absolutely nothing wrong in his life except answer this question at the Judiciary Committee. Everything else we've ever said about him is false.
- [36:43]
B
Yes.
- [36:44]
D
I think they too recognize that these charges are very weak.
- [36:47]
A
They have to right.
- [36:48]
D
They had a US Attorney resign over it. They had line prosecutors argue to the new U.S. attorney that there's not even probable cause. But I think, I think they don't care. I think that they're willing to lose this case and if they do, they can blame the judge who throws it.
- [37:02]
C
Out as just one more leftist lunatic.
- [37:06]
D
Marxist who's on the bench. I think that's what they'll do, but I don't think they care.
- [37:10]
C
I think that there are a couple.
- [37:11]
D
Things at work here. One is just making Jim Comey suffer for pure retribution. I think that's one. I think the other is to diminish the importance of indictments. If indictments are meaningless, then so are the indictments that Donald Trump was charged in. And I think that's all part of it. It's all just a big game.
- [37:28]
C
None of it matters.
- [37:29]
A
Blow it all up, Andrew. The Trump Justice Department is about to find out that the best prosecutor in the room in this case is James Comey, former federal prosecutor.
- [37:43]
C
So I completely agree with Ken that I would say that James Comey's sort of is so articulate, is such a good public speaker and they have to quote Ken, given him an enormous megaphone. He also the reporting is tonight is going to have as his counsel Pat Fitzgerald. And he is also sort of a prosecutor's prosecutor and has handled some of the most high profile matters, has enormous credibility. And you know, obviously that is an incredibly strong team. It is yet to be seen who the prosecutors are who are actually going to stand up on this case. You know, we've seen that Ms. Halligan signed as she has to the grand jury indictment, but who actually will be there and how experienced they are is yet another thing. And you know, if you look at what's happening around the country for very important cases at the Department of Justice, sometimes there are people who have just weeks or months at the department handling cases that should be handled by the most experienced people. And that is a real sign of what is happening within the department and as a reflection of really what is happening to our justice system in this country.
- [39:08]
A
Kendallane and Barbara McQuaid and Andrew Weissman, thank you for guiding our breaking news coverage. Thank you very much for joining us. We will be right back. That is tonight's last word.
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