← The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell
The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell
Trump fills administration with unqualified loyalists
00:42:50
Tonight on The Last Word: The latest on Trump’s picks to serve in the next Administration. Plus, Republican power grabs in North Carolina. And a shocking stat about local news and voting for Trump in 2024. Dr. Keneshia Grant, Fernand Armandi, Justice Allison Riggs, Anderson Clayton, Amb. Michael McFaul, and Gary Lee join Jason Johnson.
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- [00:00]
T-Mobile Representative
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- [01:13]
Dr. Jason Johnson
Now it's time for the Last word with my good friend Dr. Jason Johnson, who's in for Lawrence. Jason, how's it going my friend? I'm good. Happy holidays to you. Thank you, Charles. And thank you everyone for joining us tonight. Tonight's top political stories are like a newscast from the End Times or some terrible dystopian movie. Today, the next American president was ordered by a federal judge to sit for a four hour deposition next week in a defamation case Donald Trump brought against ABC News earlier this year related to Donald Trump being found liable for sexual abuse by a civil jury. The order issued in federal district court in Miami that Donald Trump's deposition will quote, be limited to four hours and shall take place in person in this district. Trump's counsel shall schedule the deposition to take place the week of December 16, 2024. With election day now behind us, there is no reason for any further delay. So Trump should take could take four hours out of his very busy schedule of putting together the most unqualified cabinet in history to sit for a deposition next week. It's been two weeks since Donald Trump, a convicted felon, nominated Charles Kushner, also a convicted felon, as the United States Ambassador to France. Ivanka Trump's father in law, was pardoned by Trump In December of 2020, a day later, Donald Trump announced that he was also adding Tiffany, Trump's father in law, to his administration to serve as his senior advisor for Arab and Middle Eastern affairs. Mossad Boulos joined Trump in meetings with the Arab American community in Dearborn, Michigan in the days leading up to the 2024 election. At the time of Trump's announcement, the Wall Street Journal described Massab Boulos, this Lebanese born billionaire and father in law to his daughter Tiffany. But as the New York Times reports, only two of those descriptions are true. The Times reports, quote, there is no indication in corporate documents that Mr. Boulos is a man of significant wealth as a result of his businesses. The truck dealership is valued at about $865,000 at its current share price. Mr. Bulow's stake, according to securities filings, is worth $1.53. As for Boulos Enterprises, the company that has been called his family business in the Financial Times and elsewhere, a company officer there said it is owned by an unrelated Boulos family. The confusion over Mr. Boulos background and his failure for years to clear up misunderstandings until questioned this week by the Times raises questions about how thoroughly Mr. Trump's team vetted his nominees. I would say not at all. Which brings us to another nominee, Robert Kennedy Jr. Here's how Senator Elizabeth Warren announced today's news. Say goodbye to your smile and say hello to polio.
- [04:16]
Professor Kenesha Grant
You know I would laugh if it weren't so scary. Donald Trump just picked RFK Jr. To.
- [04:22]
Dr. Jason Johnson
Lead the Department of Health and Human Services.
- [04:25]
Professor Kenesha Grant
This is a man who wants to.
- [04:27]
Dr. Jason Johnson
Stop kids from getting their polio and measles shots.
- [04:31]
Professor Kenesha Grant
He's actually welcoming a return to polio.
- [04:34]
Dr. Jason Johnson
A disease we nearly eradicated.
- [04:36]
Professor Kenesha Grant
But in it doesn't stop there. RFK Jr also doesn't believe fluoride should.
- [04:41]
Dr. Jason Johnson
Be in your water and that's what keeps your teeth from rotting. You can't make this stuff up. The New York Times reports, quote, the lawyer helping Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Pick federal health officials for the incoming Trump administration has petitioned the government to revoke its approval of the polio vaccine. Mr. Kennedy, President elect Donald J. Trump's choice for health secretary has said that he does not want to take away access to any vaccines. But as he prepares for his confirmation hearing and plans a fresh health agenda, his continuing close partnership with Mr. Siri suggests that vaccine policy will be under sharp scrutiny. At the Trump transition headquarters in Florida, Mr. Siri has joined Mr. Kennedy in questioning and choosing candidates for for top health positions. According to someone who observed the interactions, but insisted on anonymity to disclose private conversations. They have asked candidates about their views of vaccines, the person said. In a statement at NBC News, Mitch McConnell, an actual polio survivor and Republican, said, quote, the polio vaccine has saved millions of lives and held out the promise of eradicating a terrible disease. Efforts to undermine public confidence in proven cures are not just uninformed, they're dangerous. Don't remember him saying that during COVID Donald Trump's choice to run a federal agency that administers health, Medicare, Medicaid, and the Affordable Care act insurance marketplace is Dr. Mehmet Oz, who owned up to $33.7 million in stock and health insurance companies who provide insurance under Medicare Advantage. USA Today reports, quote, he also owned between 5.8 million and 26.7 million in Amazon and between 1.6 million and 6.3 million in Microsoft, two major technology providers for the Centers for Medicare and Medicare Services, the agency he would run. The incoming team is like a murderer's row of the worst people. It's hard to watch, and we're not even on day one of the next four years. Today, the White House announced Vice President Harris will be speaking to young leaders next week in Maryland. The White House says the vice president's speech will, quote, focus on the importance of sustained civic engagement moving forward and the ongoing fight for the future. That resonated with me because teachers and professors like myself, a professor at Morgan State University, are tasked to do this every day since the election with their students. It's been nine years, nine years and counting that Donald Trump has been in all of our lives. And that's bad enough for an older adult like myself, but at least we live through the before times, the days when a presidential scandal was wearing a tan suit in August. But for today's high school and college students, kids who are like 14, 18, 21 years old, college freshmen, Trump has dominated American politics for half or possibly most of their lives. So now for some insight and solidarity about how to shape the future on the precipice of a very ugly future administration, we're joined by an all professor, all star panel. Dr. Kenesha Grant, Associate professor of political science at Howard University. She's the author of the Great Migration and the Democratic Party, Black Voters and the Realignment of American politics in 20th century. And Fernand Amandi, Democratic pollster, MSNBC political analyst and lecturer at the University of Miami. So we're gonna start with Professor Grant, and I'm gonna ask this question not just because we're both HBCU professors, but because I'm going to share an honest anecdote from my goddaughter. My goddaughter reached out to me after the election and said, is it still going to be safe? Will Howard still exist when I graduate from high school and will it be safe? And to hear that from a 14 year old just devastated me because she was politically aware enough to know that, hey, this is a dangerous environment we're in. Will HBCUs even exist? Kenesha, when you talk to your students, what kinds of questions are they asking about their future, knowing that they are about to go through another four years at least of a right wing Trump administration?
- [09:05]
Fernand Amandi
I'm so sorry to hear that she is thinking that way, but I think you're right. She has a clear understanding not just of the role of HBCUs and the work that they do, but the threat that they face as people come to understand that work and come to understand how they help black Americans do better, especially in places where people are not always rooting for black Americans. My students are asking the same kinds of questions. Many of them are getting ready to leave college and so they're thinking about or trying to think about, like what do I do with all that I learned in this space when I leave this space and then what do I do to protect this space after the fact? And much of what I talk to them about, when I talk to them about what they should do and what they should be thinking about, is to remind them that the American government is vast and that we have this federal system in which we have state governments and local governments and other subnational governments working at the same time that we have this national government working. And I try to get them to refocus some of their thinking to these smaller and closer parts of government that are to the them that are a bit more easy to change in some instances than the big national government. On the HBCU question, I tell them that we have to fight. We've been fighting for these universities at this point for more than 100 years in some cases. And so it has been scary recently. It'll probably be very scary in the near future. But we have experience with that and we know how to stay in a fight long enough to make sure that our schools persist.
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Dr. Jason Johnson
Fernand, I had the opportunity to speak to one of your classes. I think you have a particularly unique insight on what it's like to teach young people going forward because Florida, to the best of DeSantis attempts. Governor DeSantis attempts he's been trying to turn Florida into a version of Trump's America, despite what Donald Trump actually thinks of him. What kind of conversations have you had with your students? Obviously you, I'm sure you have some students who are very happy that Donald Trump was reelected, but you have to have a large number who probably also think, hey, I don't know that this is a good idea. I don't know that tariffs are good. I'm a queer person, I'm a person of color. Do I have a space? What can I do in this new administration? What are the kinds of questions you're getting from them?
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Anderson Clayton
Well, Jason, very similar to those that Dr. Grant just eloquently talked about. I mean, as you said, Florida in many respects is the laboratory for the MAGA movement. And we've seen our public university system under Ron DeSantis in essence become decimated. Institutions like New College, which was one of the best public universities in the country, now is basically a propagandistic style, right wing entity. We saw what happened with our flagship university here, the University of Florida, which was in essence taken over by a Republican style presidency. And former Senator Ben Sasse, he had to be dismissed because of just almost open corruption and graft. But the conversations with my students, you had an opportunity to experience it at the University of Miami. The biggest challenge, Jason, is reminding students who, as you said earlier, have only known Donald Trump for these last nine and a half years, is reminding them that this is not normal. For many of them. What they're seeing and what they've become accustomed to is the idea that this is how politics works in the United States. This abnormality that we've experienced is how it is when it's actually not where it becomes difficult. And the hardest part is telling them that we will have the guarantees and the liberties and the protections in the future. I can't say that to them anymore, Jason, given how what we've seen Trump has said, what he's campaigned on and what he's done just in the time he's been president elect, nominating, as you said, a cabinet that is not only unqualified, it's almost a litmus test and loyalty test to the Republican Party daring to defy him and putting these clearly unqualified and disqualified people up for these most important positions to run agencies in the most powerful country in the world.
- [13:10]
Dr. Jason Johnson
Dr. Grant, you know, this is one of the things that I also find really fascinating. My students are pretty cynical, right? My Morgan State students are often like, they don't think the system is going to work for them. They've never thought the system was going to work for them. And for many of them who are first and second year students, you know, Obama like left office when they were kids, right? They don't really. They know that this guy existed. So the idea of representation in government, both phenotypic representation and ideological representation, is very new for them. Do you find that when you try to talk to them about, hey, there are opportunities to still get yourself involved in government? Do you think the young people are still interested in the kind of participation that we were taught, civic participation? You go, you march and you go vote. Or are other things more appealing to them as they try and figure out what their place will be moving forward?
- [14:03]
Fernand Amandi
That's a good question. I think that Howard students are like many college students that we find. We have some of them who are like, okay, I got it, I understand what the book says, let's do it. Even if it's broken, we can still try to figure out a way to make this thing work. And then you have other students who are like, no, just throw the whole thing away. Let's destroy it. Let's start from the beginning, because this doesn't work. Or let me try to figure out how I can work from the outside because this doesn't work. And so I think that we find the Howard students in this same kind of situation where some of them are understanding how our government works, recognizing that it doesn't really do what it says it will do or does something different these days than it used to do. But I want to figure out what I can do to make it better, more efficient, make it work for me. And then we still have those who are dreaming about a different system altogether. We still have those who are thinking about whether it may be possible to, to live under an economic system that's not capitalism, or those who are thinking about what it might look like in a United States that has a multiparty system instead of a two party system. So I think we have both things happening, and I think that we have both things happening are good. I am one who thinks that our systems are flawed, but that we should work to make them better. And I think that these ideas with people pushing from the other side actually do make them better, even if we don't end up on those ideals themselves.
- [15:19]
Dr. Jason Johnson
Fernand. A couple months ago I had a conversation with a very, very left wing student of mine who insisted that government does nothing and it's all corrupt. And I had this whole wonderful conversation with him about this thing called the Affordable Care act, and explained to him how it actually worked because he's 19 and didn't really understand the process of what. How millions of people, including people that I knew, used to not have health care. What's a positive story that you can tell your students now? What's something that you can say to your students at University of Miami? Hey, we still have this. We still have this. Historically, we have fought worse things than this in American history and survived. What's the good news that you're able to share with them since the election, if there is any?
- [15:58]
Anderson Clayton
Well, look, to the extent that there is good news, I think there is this moment, this generational moment that has been passed, whether they wanted it or not. The future of the democracy, the future of our republic, now lies in their hands. The good news is, Jason, we have never had more access to information at any point in American history than right now. Now, these young people are masters of the new technology. They know how to convene. They know how to speak and basically come together, if need be, at a moment's notice, something that was much more difficult to do in the past. And as long as we still have these protections, as long as we still have these constitutional rights, they know that they have to take advantage of that and protect them. We talked about it just a moment ago. The other thing that's so heartbreaking that I experienced in my class, especially with the female students, this idea that they are now the first generation that has lost constitutional rights in their lifetime. And for women in particular, with the loss of Roe v. Wade, that impacts young women who are of reproductive age more than anybody else. So this notion that they understand there is a battle ahead. They have their energy, they have their enthusiasm. They have their ability to connect and access to information and the world's history in their smartphones, that's the positive. I keep trying to remind them their agency is their voice, their organizational power and convening power. And whether they like it or not, whether they appreciate being dealt this historic hand, they now have to fight for what the founders deeded to us 246 years ago, which is our republic, if we can keep it.
- [17:34]
Dr. Jason Johnson
Yeah. Now, the founders weren't deeding it to us, but deeding it to people like us. Thank you all so much for starting off our show tonight. I love talking to other professors, Dr. Kenesha Grant and Fernando Armandi. Thank you so much. Thank you. Coming up, Republicans in North Carolina are putting up a fight. That's one way of putting it against the will of the voters while they still can. Republicans lost the supermajority in November and are trying to make a last minute power grab from Democrats. We'll discuss that next with North Carolina Democratic Party Chair Anderson Clayton.
- [18:10]
Michael McFaul
In the.
- [18:10]
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- [19:21]
Goldbelly Representative
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- [19:57]
Dr. Jason Johnson
Democrats in North Carolina are fighting back against an anti Democratic power grab by the state's Republicans. Surprise, surprise through a new lawsuit. First, here's the whole backstory. North Carolina State Republicans are using the current lame duck session to make a huge power grab. Buried in a 132 page hurricane relief bill are measures stripping power from the state's newly elected Democratic Governor Josh Stein, who won his race by nearly 15 points. North Carolina state incoming Democratic Attorney General, the state's newly elected Democratic Superintendent of Public Instruction and even local governments in the state. When it comes to some of the Governor's key powers, the bill turns those over to North Carolina State Auditor and you wouldn't know it, but the new Auditor Elect of North Carolina, Dave Bullock, is a Republican shocker the current governor, Democrat Roy Cooper, who is leaving office in January, vetoed this anti Democratic power grab of a bill. But North Carolina Republicans have a super majority in the House for now. Now they lost this in November, so they've got to use this power while they can. Yesterday they used that supermajority to override the governor's veto. So last night Governor Cooper and Governor elect Josh Stein filed this 69 page lawsuit challenging a portion of the Republican bill that radically rewrites the state's power structure. The lawsuit alleges, quote, this fracturing of the chain of command for state law enforcement in North Carolina plainly and clearly violates constitutional provisions ultimately intended to protect public safety and ensure accountability to the people. My colleague Joy Reed spoke to Governor elect Josh Stein about this last night. Some offenses are so grave that any court, whether it's Democratic or Republican controlled, will overturn them. And that is my expectation on this provision and the other provisions. I fully expect there will be follow on litigation on other provisions as well. But it's just an outrageous assault on the authority of the executive. It would be as if I chose the rules chair for the President pro tem or whether the speaker of the House could choose the clerk of the North Carolina Supreme Court. It is just beyond the pale. That's a lot. But the North Carolina Republicans fight against democracy doesn't stop there. They have also been fighting tooth and nail to stop incumbent Democratic candidate Allison Riggs, who will join us in a moment from keeping her place on the Supreme Court. Never mind the two recounts certified that she did win her campaign last month. The NBC News decision desk has not yet called this race, but our official count shows Riggs ahead of her Republican opponent by just a few hundred votes. Joining us now to discuss this is Allison Riggs, Associate justice of North Carolina Supreme Court. Thank you so much, Justice Riggs, for joining us this evening. Look, I'm going to start with this in general. We're not used to seeing judges come on the air and discuss elections, right? That's usually where we'll go to a journalist or we'll go to an elected official, something else like that. Explain to us why you think it's so important that you come out and speak to the public about what you're going through right now in North Carolina and what the potential consequences would be if your legitimate election got overturned.
- [23:30]
Professor Kenesha Grant
Well, thank you for this opportunity to tell that story, Jason. Over a month ago I won my race to keep my seat on the North Carolina Supreme Court where I'd been serving for 15 months already. Before that, I served as an appellate judge, and before that, spent 15 years as a civil rights attorney. I've spent my entire career and my time on the bench working to uphold the rule of law. I put my hand on Bible and swore a solemn oath to defend and uphold our state and federal constitutions. What we are seeing in North Carolina now, the will of the voters was that I keep my seat. And it's not about me. It's about the 60,000 North Carolinians, innocent North Carolinians who followed every rule. And now my opponent, rather than concede an election, wants to toss out those votes and ignore the will of the people. These are unprecedented, extraordinary times. And I think they require me as a person of constitutional convictions to shed light on what's happening and urge us all to listen to our better angels and defend our democracy.
- [24:44]
Dr. Jason Johnson
Now, Justice Riggs, just for the audience to fully understand this, there have already been two recounts, including a hand recount, and you still maintain a lead of a little less than 1,000 votes. So you've beaten your appointment. It's been viewed, it's been vetted, it's been tasted and analyzed 12 different ways. Right. And you're still in the lead. The next step. Yes, Please continue.
- [25:07]
Professor Kenesha Grant
Oh, just five point, nearly 5.6 million votes cast. My margin was 734. After the state election officials who do an incredible job recounted all of those ballots. The margin was exactly the same. That's how well run our elections are here in North Carolina.
- [25:27]
Dr. Jason Johnson
So after their attempt to get rid of 60,000 votes, and apparently right now the target is 60,000. Surprise, surprise. Tend to be in heavily Democratic areas. They're focusing a lot on areas that are heavily half African American. Voter turnout, young voter turnout. What would be the next step? If they can't throw out those votes, would they then go to the state Supreme Court? Does then go to a federal judge? What are the next levels that these Republicans might go to since they haven't been able to overturn the election by actually counting what people wanted?
- [26:01]
Professor Kenesha Grant
Yeah, we know that the state Board of Elections ruled in one case unanimously that these challenges have no merit. And they include, if you're a black voter, you're twice as likely to be on the challenge list. People who I can personally vouch are legitimate voters, including my parents, are on that list. We expect there's an appeals process for state agency decisions. There's also currently a federal lawsuit that's been filed by the North Carolina Democratic Party urging a federal court to issue a declaratory judgment that our federal laws, including the National Voter Registration Act, UACAVA for protecting military and overseas voters, prohibit the discounting of these 60,000 voters. And I want to make sure we don't sanitize it. My opponent has described it as correcting the count. It is disenfranchising 60,000 North Carolina voters. And we need to say that.
- [27:12]
Dr. Jason Johnson
North Carolina Associate Justice Allison Riggs, thank you. We're going to keep following up your story.
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Professor Kenesha Grant
Thank you.
- [27:19]
Dr. Jason Johnson
Joining us now is Anderson Clayton, chair of the North Carolina Democratic Party. Anderson, thank you so much for joining us this evening. Look, this is bonkers to me, except that we saw the same thing happen in Michigan. We saw the same thing happen in Wisconsin. When Republicans don't win elections, they attempt to cheat. They attempt to steal power. So the first question that I have for you as a party chair is how are you rallying the troops? Because 2024 was disappointing for a lot of Democrats. North Carolina is one of the few bright spots, but here you are still fighting the last month's battles. How are you sort of talking to organizers and lawyers on the ground, voters whose votes have may be challenged so that they stay engaged in this battle?
- [28:03]
Michael McFaul
Look, we're a party of fighters and we're gonna make sure that we do that in every level possible. And so as Justice Riggs just talked about, we have filed a lawsuit in federal court to protect the 60,000 voters that Jefferson Gritter and a sitting judge right now in North Carolina is challenging the voters of the votes of at the ballot box at this moment in time. But we're also looking to galvanize people come the new year, January 5th, we're hosting a rally for our rights in Halifax Mall in Raleigh. And so we hope that everyone will join us and come together to make sure that Republicans know that we're watching. Because even though we broke a Republican supermajority, as you talked about earlier, we still see Republican power grabs at every level. And to your point, it's not just happened in North Carolina. We've seen it in Ohio as well as Iowa, as well as any other state where Democrats have managed to eke out statewide wins even under Republican disenfranchisement like gerrymandering in states like North Carolina right now.
- [29:01]
Dr. Jason Johnson
Now, Anderson, I'm curious about this. I was just thinking a little bit of the history. Before 2020, Democrats had a 61 lead in the state Supreme Court. And now you're sort of in this 5, 3 battle. What happened in the last two elections that sort of cost Democrat seats. And what are your plans in the future to make sure that you can knock out some of these Republicans and restore, restore balance to the force of justice on the Supreme Court at the state level.
- [29:27]
Michael McFaul
Look, the reason why we're seeing a 733 vote win right now for Justice Allison Riggs versus a 401 vote loss for Chief Justice Sherry Beasley back in 2020 is a functioning state party and it means that we are prioritizing resource, building on ground and focusing on judicial races in a way that's been led up by both of our two Supreme Court justices that are Democrats currently on the bench, Justice Riggs and Justice Earls. And so we need to make sure that we hold another seat this upcoming year in 2026 with Justice Earls on the ballot. And then we're going to take three Republican seats in 28 and make sure that we reverse partisan gerrymandering in North Carolina because that is what's disenfranchised so many voters across our state for the last decade. And especially when you look at voters in the south right now, where we are struggling is the fact that most of our state legislatures have been gerrymandered by Republicans at the helm who have been drawing the districts for so long.
- [30:24]
Dr. Jason Johnson
Anderson Clayton, thank you so much for staying in the fight. Really appreciate you coming on tonight.
- [30:29]
Michael McFaul
Thank you.
- [30:31]
Dr. Jason Johnson
Coming up, mass rallies took place across Syria today and that leads to major questions about what happens next in the aftermath of President Bashar Al Assad's regime. Michael McFaul, the former US ambassador to Russia, joins us next.
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- [32:01]
Anderson Clayton
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Dr. Jason Johnson
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Anderson Clayton
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Dr. Jason Johnson
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Anderson Clayton
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Dr. Jason Johnson
Mass rallies erupt across Syria today as the Syrian people took to the streets to mark the first Friday since the fall of President Bashar al Assad's brutal regime. Those celebrating also included inmates released by the Syrian rebels from Assad's notorious prisons, where tens of thousands of people have been held captive since the beginning of the Syrian Civil War. MSNBC's Matt Bradley reports tonight with the latest from Damascus, where an American man is finally headed home after being freed from one of Assad's prisons.
- [33:10]
Matt Bradley
And we've just heard that Travis Timmerman, that American who was discovered here in Syria just a couple of days ago, he had been released from a prison here. He has now been transferred by American authorities back to the custody of his family in the United States to their open arms just in time for Christmas. Now that ends his long and very strange journey which saw him imprisoned here in Syria under the regime of Bashar al Assad for several months until that regime fell and he was released. Now he said that he had come over to Syria by foot from Lebanon, crossing the mountains for three days and three nights with no food or water before he was captured by a Syrian border guard. Now, in the midst of all this, we're seeing a renewed diplomatic push. Antony Blinken is in the region, visiting countries all around Syria, trying to square up American allies and trying to get them to help in the effort to have a peaceful transition of power here in Syria and to try to do other things, trying to help the population here, trying to ensure that ISIS doesn't return in several parts of Syria where there are still some elements of ISIS that are still circulating around that still have weapons and trying to make sure that chemical weapons, which we know the Assad regime has used to great effect on several occasions during its nearly 14 year long civil war. We know that there are still some here and this is all a major diplomatic effort very tricky diplomatic work. But if you go out into the streets today there was a huge protest. It doesn't seem tricky at all to the Syrian public. They were out celebrating. They had been asked to do that by the leader of the Hayat Tahrir al Sham. That's the Islamist group that led that lightning push that toppled Bashar al Assad's regime nearly a week ago. Now, for the people that I spoke with today out in the square who were celebrating, who were dancing around for them, even though there are all these unanswered questions about Syria's future, the honeymoon period is not yet over.
- [35:08]
Dr. Jason Johnson
Great reporting from Matt Bradley. And like he said, there are major questions about what happens next for post Assad Syria, a critical one being how much has this hurt Vladimir Putin's military presence in the Middle east, and what could that mean for Putin's ambitions in Ukraine? Joining us now to help answer these questions is MSNBC international affairs analyst Michael McFaul. He served as U.S. ambassador to Russia from 2012 to 2014. Michael? Ambassador, it's always great to speak to you because you make things very clear in a confusing and sometimes dangerous world. So let's just start at the very beginning. Assad has fallen. He has fled to Russia. What is the likely timeline for any semblance of a government to form in Syria that will be reaching out to the United States, to France and other places saying, hey, we're the new people in charge. We need you to sort of identify us and make it clear that we're the new people?
- [36:06]
Ambassador Michael McFaul
Well, Jason, thanks for the compliment about how I can make things clear, but I want to be honest with you on this one. I can't. And I don't believe anybody who thinks that they can, because this is a good news, bad news story. The good news, of course, is that this horrific, barbaric dictator is gone. Watching the demonstrations today remind me when I worked at the White House and the National Security Council with President Obama, we celebrated these demonstrations, too, back in 2011. But tragically, we tried to work with the Russians and the international community to negotiate the exit of Assad. And Vladimir Putin would not go along with that. And so blood is on his hands, too, of a decade of killing, just horrific killing of civilians. So the good news is he's gone. The complicated news is that there are several forces that are now governing parts of Syria, not just one. You were just talking. Matt was just talking about HTS and Jelani, and he is now in Damascus. That's one group. That's the main group we've been focusing on. But there's another group in the north that the Turks have been supporting. They're not part of the liberation group that's in Damascus. And then there's another group, the Kurds, that we support out in the east. And so far, there's been no direct negotiations between those three groups. And then you add to that, of course, ISIS is still there, too. So a long ways to go before there will be a negotiated settlement. But it's a much better day today than it was just a week ago.
- [37:41]
Dr. Jason Johnson
I want to play some sound from Secretary of State Antony Blinken from earlier today while in Turkey for talks with our allies in the region. Get your thoughts on the other side. As the minister said, we're very focused on Syria. We talked about how Turkey, how the United States, how other partners in the region can support those efforts. And I think there's broad agreement on what we would each like to see going forward, starting with the interim government in Syria, Syria, one that is inclusive and nonsectarian. So Ambassador McFaul, he's blinking and saying, hey, look, we want to talk to our allies in the region. We want to make sure they're lining things up. One of America's biggest allies in the region is Israel. And since the fall of Bashar al Assad, they've had done over 400 bombings or incursions into even some demilitarized territory. Now, Netanyahu claims that it's for safety sake that they're only hitting military targets. But is the United States going to be able to rein in any of their allies? How do they keep people from basically attacking a weakened Syria and working out their own sort of revenge or trying to grab pieces of the country?
- [38:58]
Ambassador Michael McFaul
That's a great question. I don't have a great answer. Israel was wiping out Assad's former military equipment, right? He doesn't want to have that go into the hands of terrorists. That's what they were trying to do. The Turks have their own agenda. Other actors, the Saudis have their own agenda. I think it's the right approach that Secretary Blinken is there right now. We have to be engaged.
- [39:22]
Anderson Clayton
Not.
- [39:23]
Ambassador Michael McFaul
And I want to be crystal clear about this because it's being distorted, not in some nation building cause not occupying. We're not talking about that, not even talking about democracy yet, in my opinion. But we should be talking about helping an interim government succeed, helping them talk together, mapping forward a constitutional process. And we have to be engaged to do that. And what worries me is when I hear President Elect Trump talk. He says we're just going to walk away and let them work it out. And I'm really nervous about that. That leads to civil war and maybe it doesn't feel like it'll affect us for a while. But I'll remind you, that's what we thought about in Afghanistan after the Soviets left there. It reminds me a lot watching those Russians leave today. And we thought for a long time didn't really matter to us. And tragically, a decade later, on September 11, it really mattered to us. We can't put our head in the sand. We can't isolate and walk away. We have to help moderate and mediate the solution, especially because the allies and the regions are the ones that are closest to the United states.
- [40:32]
Dr. Jason Johnson
Ambassador Michael McFaul, thank you for that sobering and very realistic assessment of what's going on in Syria. Thank you.
- [40:39]
Ambassador Michael McFaul
Thanks for having me.
- [40:41]
Dr. Jason Johnson
Coming up, what happened when A reporter watched 47 Hours of Maga Media? That's next on the Last Word. Here is a shocking but not surprising fact about the presidential election. Donald Trump won the 2024 election with one of the smallest popular vote margins in US History. But in news deserts counties lacking a professional source of news, Trump won 91% of those counties, according to an analysis of voting data by Medill Journalism School, by Medill's Journalism School State of Local News Project. While Trump's national popular vote margin was just under 1.5%, his margin in news deserts was massive. He won these counties by an average of 54 percentage points. So what might voters in a place where there is no reliable local journalism have been consuming during the election year? Undoubtedly, some of those voters fell down the rabbit hole of MAGA media like Rumble, a right wing content site used by Donald Trump Jr. And Steve Bannon, the New York Times. Stuart Thompson watched 47 Hours of Rumble and here's what he reports. My first recommended video was about the risk of nuclear war with an AI generated photo of President Biden laughing maniacally above a headline that read World War 3 incoming Biden authorized a strike on Russia ahead of Trump taking office. Other Rumble fare included espousing that people at think tanks in Washington were, quote, morons and, quote, crazier than any schizophrenic. Not that that's entirely insulting to people with mental health issues. And that the department Homeland Security was running a, quote, sex trafficking operation. And you know, because Grifter's gonna grift the Roseanne Barr Show, a segment about nuclear war bled into an ad for an emergency health kit. Here's Stuart Thompson on how it affected him after this 47 hours after only one day, I could feel my perspective shifting when I described to my wife what I was hearing on Rumble. She said I was right to feel uneasy because the world I was immersing myself in sounded genuinely awful. Hour by hour, Rumble's host stoked fears about nearly everything culture wars, transgender Americans, and even a potential World War three. The prospect of an impending World War three stuck with me long after the live streams ended. And as I shuttled my son to daycare or walked down the aisles at the grocery store, I found my mind drifting to thoughts of nuclear bombs, a military draft, or how a global conflict might actually unfold. Higher grocery prices hit differently if the context is walking down the aisle fearing nuclear fallout. So what's the alternative? People aren't going to put down their phones and toxic content that feeds the algorithms isn't going to go away. And no matter what happens with TikTok, people will find disinformation. But people have access to this stuff everywhere, and voters in places that had local journalism behaved differently. Here to unpack some of the power of local news is Gary Lee, the managing editor of the Oklahoma Eagle, a newspaper that has been an advocate for the African American community for over 100 years. Gary Lee, thank you so much for joining us this evening. Look, look, there's so many media questions I want to ask you, but we want to start with the good news. Tell us about what has recently happened with your paper and how it's going to be expanding its coverage and the information provided to the public and why that's so important now in this age of disinformation.
- [44:43]
Gary Lee
First of all, Jason, thank you very much for having me here. The Oklahoma Eagle has, under a project sponsored by the American Journalism Project, received funding to be able to allow us to expand our coverage to quadruple the size of the paper and to broaden and deepen the areas of coverage that we've done over the years. In addition to that, we are launching a new nonprofit newsroom across the city of Tulsa that we're calling the Tulsa Local News Initiative. The reason why this is important is because we have found that the more informed local people are about what's going on in their neighborhoods, in their communities, the better decisions they make, whether those are political, lifestyle or so on.
- [45:49]
Dr. Jason Johnson
So, Gary, one of the things that I've found in the research, which is fascinating, is that when people read good local news, they're also more likely to engage. So when they read stories about effective things that city council has done, when they read things about groups of young children doing good things in a local community or at a local school, they're more inclined to participate. Is that the kind of news you also want to bring with the Oklahoma Eagle?
- [46:12]
Gary Lee
It's definitely where we're going with this new funding and with our new enlivened Oklahoma Eagle that will be in part to bring people good news stories about the positive things going on in the community. So this initiative came about as a result of listening sessions that were conducted by the American Journalism Project in which local people in Tulsa said they wanted more. They wanted something different from what they were getting in local news. Part of that was that they wanted more positive stories. They also wanted to see themselves reflected more in the media.
- [46:57]
Dr. Jason Johnson
It's nice to hear a newspaper that's no longer just going to focus on if it bleeds, it leads, which is too much of our local news. Gary Lee, thank you so much. I'm sorry we don't have a lot of time. Thank you so much for joining us this evening on Last Word.
- [47:08]
Gary Lee
Thank you, Jason. Good evening.
- [47:11]
Dr. Jason Johnson
And we'll be right back after this break. Before we go, please take a listen to my podcast, A Word with Jason Johnson, where we have a very special show that dropped tonight with a huge announcement. It can be found wherever you find your podcasts.
- [47:28]
Michael McFaul
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- [47:33]
Dr. Jason Johnson
For a limited time, take advantage of.
- [47:35]
Michael McFaul
Incredible savings and incentives during Dr. Hortons it's your Year Savings event going on now through December 22nd. Your perfect home for every holiday season is waiting for you. To find yours, visit any of our participating Dr. Horton communities or visit us at Dr. Horton.com and discover the Dr. Horton difference. Dr. Horton, America's builder, an equal housing opportunity builder.