← The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell
The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell
Trump refuses to rule out pardon for Ghislaine Maxwell
00:41:18
Tonight on The Last Word: Epstein co-conspirator Ghislaine Maxwell is granted limited immunity during meetings with Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche. Also, Axios reports Nevada swing state voters are turning on Donald Trump. Plus, the Trump administration backs down and releases over $5 billion in Education Department funds. And a Republican congressman is caught misrepresenting his grandfather’s “legal” immigration story. Lisa Rubin, Rep. Wesley Bell, Margaret Talev, Colorado Attorney General Phil Weiser, and Chase Woodruff join Ali Velshi.
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- [00:00]
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Ali Velshi
Complicated than the last.
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Ali Velshi
Now it's.
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Jen Psaki
Time for the Last Word with Allie.
- [01:01]
Ali Velshi
Velshi in the anchor chair.
- [01:02]
Jen Psaki
Hey Ali.
- [01:03]
Ali Velshi
Jen, thank you. What a week it's been.
- [01:05]
Jen Psaki
It has been no doubt lots to.
- [01:07]
Ali Velshi
Talk about and there'll be a lot more next week. So get yourself some rest this weekend. We'll see you on Monday.
- [01:11]
Jen Psaki
Thank you. I'll be watching you.
- [01:13]
Ali Velshi
Thanks Jen.
- [01:13]
Jen Psaki
Have a good weekend.
- [01:14]
Ali Velshi
At the end of the show tonight, by the way, Lawrence is going to be making an appearance. There was a story that he has wanted to do all week but it didn't make air because of all the Trump Epstein breaking news. So Lawrence taped it after the show yesterday and I'm going to have it at the end of the show tonight. But we begin tonight with Trump and Epstein breaking news today. Donald Trump made sure the Epstein scandal isn't going anywhere. By speaking with reporters in the Trumpiest way possible, he's guaranteed that the scandal stays right where he doesn't want it to be, front and center. Donald Trump was on his way to Scotland to, among other things, open a new golf course when he stopped to take some questions about Jeffrey Epstein's co conspirator Ghislaine Maxwell.
- [01:56]
Donald Trump
Would you consider a pardon or a.
- [01:57]
Ali Velshi
Commutation for Ghislaine Maxwell?
- [02:00]
Ghislaine Maxwell
It's something I haven't thought about. It's really something. I'm allowed to do it, but it's something I have not thought about.
- [02:06]
Ali Velshi
But you wouldn't rule it out, sir. Well, that wasn't a no. Donald Trump's comments came as the Deputy Attorney General, Todd Blanch, met with Ghislaine Maxwell and her attorney for the second time this week. The New York Times reports, quote, Mr. Blanche has described his trip as a neutral fact finding mission, saying he would share details of the discuss at the appropriate time. Yet he's also declared that the federal criminal investigation into targets beyond Ms. Maxwell and Mr. Epstein remains closed. By that standard, new interviews would appear to serve a function beyond the purposes of traditional law enforcement unless new evidence of criminality has been discovered. Current and former officials said the department offered Ms. Maxwell conditional immunity to discuss the case, but the protection did not apply in if she lied in her interviews, according to an official with knowledge of the situation who requested anonymity to discuss details of the case publicly. In total, the interview lasted about eight to 10 hours. A senior administration official has confirmed to NBC News tonight that Ghislaine Maxwell was granted limited immunity by the Justice Department. The agreement allowed Ghislaine Maxwell to answer questions from Todd Blanche, and those responses would not be used against her in any future cases or proceedings as long as she didn't lie. Ghislaine Maxwell's lawyer, David Marcus, told reporters that after the meeting that his client answered every question. David Marcus said that when asked about comments that Donald Trump made today about Ghislaine Maxwell, we haven't spoken to the president or anybody about a pardon just yet.
- [03:44]
Donald Trump
And you know, listen, the president this morning said he had the power to do so.
- [03:49]
Ali Velshi
We hope he exercises that power. Last night, the Wall Street Journal's editorial board gave Donald Trump some advice on, quote, how to end the Epstein follies. The editorial board at the Journal, which Trump is suing, by the way, says that Attorney General Pam Bondi and FBI Director Kash Patel should explain the Epstein case at a news conference, quote, if Ms. Bondi and Mr. Patel are now telling the truth about the contents of the Epstein files, then what's needed are officials who will take the responsibility and then take the heat for declining to publish documents that could hurt victims and ruin reputations without a criminal case. But perhaps Ms. Bondi and Mr. Patel could call a news conference, provide context on the mentions of Mr. Trump, and explain why releasing raw files could do more harm than good. Bring FBI Deputy Director Dan Bongino. If he'll show up, then they and Mr. Trump could tell the public that the files didn't live up to the hype, including theirs, before they took office. The case is closed, and that's that. The problem is, with each passing day, this Case seems farther and farther from closed. Last night, both the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal reported that Donald Trump's name appeared on a contributor list for a book celebrating Jeffrey Epstein's 50th birthday. The new York Times also revealed another handwritten note to Jeffrey Epstein by Donald Trump. Quote to Jeff, you are the greatest, reads an inscription in a copy of Mr. Trump's book, the Art of the Comeback, that belonged to Mr. Epstein. The message reviewed by the Times is signed Donald and dated October 97, the month the book came out. So it's hard to see how a press conference would end the Epstein scandal when new details about Donald Trump's relationship with Jeffrey Epstein seem to emerge almost every day. Now, Donald Trump's comments about his power to pardon Ghislaine Maxwell weren't the only comments that he made today about the Epstein scandal. This is how Donald Trump replied to a question about his contribution to Jeffrey Epstein's birthday book that was first reported in the Wall Street Journal.
- [05:52]
Ghislaine Maxwell
Do you maintain you did not write.
- [05:54]
Ali Velshi
A letter for Jeffrey Epstein's birthday?
- [05:56]
Ghislaine Maxwell
I don't even know what they're talking about. Now, somebody could have written a letter and used my name, but that's happened a lot.
- [06:03]
Ali Velshi
Okay? Now, just to be clear, NBC News has not confirmed the existence of the birthday book. We haven't seen it. The Wall Street Journal and the New York Times are both reporting on it. But Trump's claim is that somebody could have impersonated this letter to Epstein. And it doesn't seem that Donald Trump's all that curious to uncover whomever it was who apparently impersonated him without apparently his knowledge. I mean, if that's what he thinks, it seems like Donald Trump more than anyone would want to see the birthday book and try to expose the imposter. But Donald Trump claims he just doesn't have anything to do with Jeffrey Epstein.
- [06:37]
Ghislaine Maxwell
You know, Jeffrey Epstein should be spoken about and they should speak about them, because they don't talk about them. They talk about me. I have nothing to do with the guy.
- [06:48]
Ali Velshi
Nothing to do with the guy who Donald Trump spent years attending social events with, the man who called Donald Trump his closest friend for 10 years, Jeffrey Epstein. After landing in Scotland, Donald Trump said this when asked about Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanch's meeting with Ghislaine Maxwell.
- [07:06]
Ghislaine Maxwell
A lot of people are asking me about pardons. Obviously, this is no time to be talking about pardons, but a lot of people have asked about pardon. This is just not a time to be talking about pardons. Todd Will with whatever he's got. You make it a very big thing over something that's not a big thing.
- [07:25]
Ali Velshi
If Pam Bondi were to take the Wall Street Journal's advice and put on a press conference, she'll likely be asked about her briefing with Donald Trump. The Wall Street Journal and other news outlets reported this week that Pam Bondi told Donald Trump that he's named in the Epstein files, or she told him this in May. And this is what Donald Trump said today about that.
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Lisa Rubin
Did you brief on your name appearing.
- [07:47]
Ali Velshi
In the Epstein files ever?
- [07:48]
Ghislaine Maxwell
No, I was never, never bribed on.
- [07:52]
Ali Velshi
So it's no surprise that the Epstein scandal followed Trump to Scotland. The latest Fox poll shows 80% of registered voters have been following the Epstein case. Of the people who've been following the case, only 13% believe the Trump administration has been open and transparent. The Epstein scandal will not be going away anytime soon. Florida's Governor Ron DeSantis was dragged into the Epstein conversation when his press conference was interrupt. South park used the premiere of its 27th season to joke about Donald Trump's name being on the Epstein list. And today, a women's advocacy group flew a banner reading Trump and Bondi are protecting predators over the Tallahassee Federal Courthouse where Todd Blanche met with Ghislaine Maxwell. Epstein's scandal isn't going anywhere. And every time Donald Trump speaks, he just adds fuel to the fire that he claims he wants to put out. Joining us now is the Democratic Congressman Wesley Bell of Missouri. He's a member of the House Oversight Committee. Also with us, MSNBC legal correspondent Lisa Rubin. Good evening to both of you. Congressman Bell, talk to me about what you and your fellow Democratic members of Congress are trying to achieve right now with respect to information about Jeffrey Epstein and whatever documents may exist.
- [09:06]
Wesley Bell
It is not complicated. It is very straightforward transparency. And six months and 22 days ago, I was still the elected DA in St. Louis County. And we dealt with these kind of cases and sex trafficking and sex traffickers. We were not going to protect them. We were not going to hide information for their benefit. We were going to be transparent. And that's what we've. That's what we think this administration should be doing.
- [09:37]
Ali Velshi
Lisa, can you help us with these Todd Blanche conversations with Ghislaine Maxwell? Because for most of us who are not lawyers, like, like you two, we understand no part of this. Why is the Deputy Attorney General meeting with a convicted criminal? What's the immunity that she got? And what does success look like in a conversation with, with Ghislaine Maxwell. Right.
- [09:58]
Lisa Rubin
Now, let's start with the second question first. What is I think you asked Allie what the purpose of granting her immunity here is. Yeah, it's the purpose of granting her immunity is so that she will feel free to have conversations about what she witnessed and what she participated in. But usually where you grant conditional or use immunity to someone like a Glenn Maxwell, it's understood that that person is going to tell you about their own culpability for the crimes. That's something that's endemic to cooperation agreement, for example, that prosecutors reach with someone who is both a perpetrator and a witness. So to the extent that her lawyer, David Oscar Marcus, said today that she provided information about more than 100 individuals, the real question that I have is what did Glenn Maxwell tell Todd Blanche about her own participation? I have read trial testimony from Glenn Maxwell's trial. I have read scores of depositions from civil litigation involving her and Jeffrey Epstein. The victim's accounts of what they went through at Ghislaine Maxwell's own hands, not to mention Jeffrey Epstein's, is vivid. And I want to be really clear, ally with you and our viewers. Glenn Maxwell is said to have participated directly in the sexual abuse of these victims. She was not just Jeffrey Epstein's co conspirator. She was not just a groomer or a facilitator. She herself participated in sex acts that were unwanted by these women. In terms of what success looks like, that has me scratching my head as well because Glenn Maxwell was charged with three counts of perjury on which she was never tried. But where you're dealing with somebody that you never believed to be honest in the first place, and by you, I mean the Department of Justice as a whole. Again, I go back to the way that you get to trust someone like that is if they are honest with you about their own participation and culpability here. And based on statements that her lawyer has made, it's far from clear to me that, that Glenn Maxwell accepts any responsibility for her participation in these horrific, monstrous acts.
- [12:10]
Ali Velshi
Congressman Bell, I spoke with Congressman Robert Garcia earlier this evening, and one of his concerns here, putting aside the getting access to Ghislaine Maxwell as Congress is looking to subpoena her, is, is. Is whether he actually trusts the Department of Justice. I mean, this is unorthodox, to say the least, that Todd Blanche, a political appointee who happened to be Donald Trump's personal attorney, would be going to conduct this interview as opposed to a career professional from the Department of Justice. But it would have been unorthodox anyway, for this to happen. So everything about this doesn't clear the air.
- [12:47]
Wesley Bell
Absolutely. There is no daylight between this Department of Justice and Donald Trump. And so we're talking about a. Essentially, this is for an audience of one. She's already been convicted of sex trafficking. She's already been convicted of perjury. And so now they're looking for a pardon. And who does this testimony, who does her testimony benefit? Obviously, it's going to be. She's trying to benefit herself, but also they're looking for a pardon. And the fact that the President of the United States would even entertain the possibility of pardoning a convicted sex trafficker is, is just beyond. I, I can't even fathom this with any other president.
- [13:36]
Ali Velshi
Yeah. Lisa, putting aside the legal part of this, there's just some politics to this. There are people who get pardoned. It's not usually convicted sex traffickers.
- [13:46]
Jen Psaki
No.
- [13:46]
Lisa Rubin
And I can't think of somebody who's been pardoned for a crime like this. I want to correct the record in one respect. Glenn Maxwell was charged with perjury. She was never convicted of it. But I want to go back to the politics here and how unusual it is to see someone like Todd Blanch conduct this interview, not only because, as Congressman Bell said, there's no daylight between this White House and this Department of Justice, but it's unclear to me how familiar Todd Blanche is with the record in this case. When you look back on the identities of people who know the most about Jeffrey Epstein, Glenn Maxwell and their crimes, none of them are named Todd Blanche. In fact, one of them bears the name Maureen Comey.
- [14:28]
Ali Velshi
Correct.
- [14:28]
Lisa Rubin
She by the department last week. The other thing that I think is important to note is that this Department of Justice, Donald Trump's Department of Justice, submitted a brief to the Supreme Court no more no longer ago than July 14th. That was a brief in which they opposed Glenn Maxwell's petition for certiorari or review by the Supreme Court of her conviction. And the Department of Justice very strenuously said this conviction is just, this conviction should be upheld. And the only basis on which Glenn Maxwell challenged that conviction was by saying when Jeffrey Epstein cut his deal with the Southern District of Florida in 2006, 7, 8, I should have been able to benefit from that because that deal mentioned basically that they would never be able to prosecute his co conspirators. I am one such co conspirator, therefore I shouldn't have been prosecuted. But they didn't challenge at the Supreme Court at Least the sufficiency of the evidence, the fairness of the trial, or the conditions in which she's being held at FCI Tallahassee. Those are all complaints her lawyer made today. But those aren't part of what they are challenging at the Supreme Court currently. You know, a challenge that Donald Trump's own Department of justice has said is not righteous.
- [15:43]
Ali Velshi
Congressman, do you believe that Ghislaine Maxwell is going to testify before Congress? And if so, once again, what does success look like to you and your fellow members of Congress in talking to her?
- [15:54]
Wesley Bell
Lisa, thank you for correcting that. That is correct. These were allegations with sex trafficking, but obviously it does not look good. And we know that sex trafficking occurred. And success looks like transparency. The biggest issue and what I've seen in my short term as a freshman member of Congress is the lack of trust in government in general. And whatever trust there was is completely bottomed out. And folks have to believe that we're going to be honest with them, that we're going to be transparent with them. And I agree with Robert Garcia, our ranking member on oversight. It's so important that we let folks know exactly what is in these files to the best of our ability and not hide and protect the folks who the folks accused of sex trafficking, particularly when we know somebody like Epstein. We know what was going on there for the at least we know what was going on for years. But the people we should be protecting are the innocent victims, the children. That's who we should be protecting.
- [17:02]
Ali Velshi
Yes. And there's a valid argument and criticism out there that this has all been focused in the wrong place. If we're going to bring this whole case back up, let's center the victims in it. Thanks to both of you, Congressman Wesley Bell and my good friend, Lisa, Robert Rubin, thank you. Coming up, all week long in poll after poll, on issue after issue, the news has just been all bad for Donald Trump. We'll discuss what it could mean for Republicans with the campaign for midterm elections already underway. That's next.
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- [18:07]
Child 1
That's a hard question.
- [18:09]
Ali Velshi
Something that you can strive for, that.
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Jen Psaki
I'm able to do anything I set my mind to. You're confident in yourself and you believe in yourself. Stuff that you could achieve. I feel at Sarah anything is possible when you're more confident.
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Ali Velshi
Shoes are a huge part of that. They are the most important part of my style. You can like express yourself in the right shoes.
- [18:29]
Jen Psaki
Anything is possible.
- [18:30]
Ali Velshi
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- [18:33]
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- [19:08]
Ali Velshi
The poll numbers on Donald Trump's agenda and the economy are abysmal. I'm not exaggerating here. 70% of Americans think Donald Trump is not focusing enough on lowering prices, which he campaigned on. 62% say Donald Trump's policies are making the price of food and groceries go up. 61% say Donald Trump is focusing too much on tariffs, which 60% oppose. Even in the Fox poll this week, voters disapprove across the board on Donald Trump's policies, including on the cuts in the Republican budget bill, which 48% say hurt their family rather than help. 64% disapprove of tax cuts for those with a yearly income over 625,000 a year. 53% disapprove of stricter work requirements to receive Medicaid. 65% disapprove of reducing funding for food stamps, which I think should probably 100%, but whatever, it's not me. Donald Trump's job approval rating has slipped to 37% according to Gallup. That's, quote, the lowest of this term and just slightly higher than his all time worst rating of 34%, which was at the end of his first term. Trump's rating has fallen 10 percentage points among U.S. adults since he began his second term in January, including a 17 point decline among independents to 29%, matching his lowest rating with that group in either of his terms. There's even more bad news for Donald Trump in swing states like Nevada. Joining us is Margaret Taleff Senior contributor at Axios and director of Syracuse University's Institute for Democracy, Journalism and Citizenship. Margaret, nice to see you.
- [20:49]
Jen Psaki
Thanks, Alex. Good to be with you.
- [20:50]
Ali Velshi
Let's talk a little bit about this. I want to read from Axios when we're talking about this focus group in which it's written. A majority of Nevada swing voters in our latest engages Sego focus groups who backed President Trump in November said they now disapprove of his administration's actions. These swing voters assessments of the administration were the most negative of any of our monthly panels this year. Besides March, when Michigan voters recoiled against Trump's tariff threats and antagonism toward Neighbor Canada, seven of the 12 participants said they disapprove of the administration's overall actions since January. This is crucially important because Donald Trump won on razor thin margins. Just the way politics goes in America, that those razor thin margins got him the electoral victories that looked bigger, but the actual numbers were small.
- [21:43]
Jen Psaki
Yeah, and I'm gonna throw in all the caveats about a focus group. It's 12 people. So, like, nobody's betting the farm on 12 people. But when you listen to these groups month after month, as we do, like, I notice a lot of patterns. And the way we're defining swing voter for purpose of these focus group projects is these are people who voted for Joe Biden in 2020 and then swung to Donald Trump in 2024. And it's notable that in many of these groups, and it's true in this one, most of them tend to be independents. Right. So. And none of them are Democrats. So this group of 12, 10 are independents, two are Republicans. And voters like that tend to be change voters because they are dissatisfied with the status quo and they don't often don't trust the power structure. And so they voted for Donald Trump thinking that he was going to improve the economy and that they were going to trust him more than they trusted Joe Biden. Kamala Harris. And what we heard from these voters in these panels Tuesday night was what they're really upset about the leading issue is inflation. They are really upset that they thought the grocery prices are going to be cheaper. Nothing feels cheaper, but also this big, beautiful bill. While they were intrigued by a lot of the elements, they were intrigued with the idea that it would be harder for people not to work and get benefits. Or they were intrigued by no taxes on tips. That when it got down to the nitty gritty, the more that they learned about the cuts to Medicaid that will manifest in a year after the Midterms, they really don't like that. They said they don't think no taxes on tips is an accurate way to describe what will be reduced taxes on some tips. And the Epstein case also factored quite a bit. 12 out of 12 knew who Jeffrey Epstein was. 8 out of the 12 told us they felt like there was some kind of an organized cover up to protect his clients. And of those eight, quite a few were concerned that the President, on some level, they don't know exactly what may be trying to shield himself from scrutiny as well. So you add those three things up, the inflation, the big beautiful bill, and Jeffrey Epstein, and you have more than half of these people who swung toward Trump now saying they're not satisfied with what he and his administration are doing.
- [24:08]
Ali Velshi
I'm curious, because the last time Congress went on recess and went home, all sorts of problems arose. The big beautiful bill wasn't around yet. The jury was still out on inflation. The Jeffrey Epstein story had not erupted. That was all Doge, if you remember, that was members of Congress like, does that even come up anymore or are we three news cycles out from that now?
- [24:28]
Jen Psaki
There was a lot of Doge in previous focus groups, not quite as much in this one. But I'll tell you, you would look at like the results, what we've been talking about and think, wow, what a prime opportunity for Democrats. And yet I've got to say, what we heard in these focus groups was like nothing for Democrats to dine out on. If they could redo it, would they vote for Kamala Harris instead of Donald Trump? Almost all of them said no. Ask how do you feel about the Democratic Party that overwhelmingly negative things to say. They use words like corruption or, you know, that they're feckless or they should get things done that they say they're going to do or they should move toward the middle. So Democrats do have an opportunity. If they focus on inflation and the economy and health care and perhaps the Epstein issue, they do have an opportunity to find some of these voters who thought they were getting something with Trump that they don't feel like they're getting now. But in order to get there, the Democrats have an image makeover to no great revelation. We know all of this. But, but, but it's, it's always helpful.
- [25:27]
Ali Velshi
I agree with your, your caveat about focus groups, but you could have caveats for polls, too. The point is, if you do it, if you look at polls and you look at focus groups and you're out there talking to people, you, you, as you said, you develop, you figure out patterns, and that's, that's the best we can do. Margaret, nice to see you. Thank you for being with us. Margaret Tale of is a senior contributor at Axios and the director of Syracuse University's Institute for Democracy Journalism. All right, coming up, Trump taco'd today after being sued by Democratic attorneys general on a very important issue that won't get a lot of buzz, but it's already on the front pages of local news in Pittsburgh and Austin and Minneapolis and all over the country because it's gonna affect many families starting in the next few weeks. An attorney general who forced Trump to chicken out joins us next. Breaking back to school news today, Donald Trump tacoed in his attempt to take money from American school kids. After weeks of public pressure and a federal lawsuit, the Trump administration will now release more than $5 billion in public school funding that it's illegally been withholding since June. The Washington Post reports, quote, states expect the funding to be released July 1. Instead, the Education Department notified states June 30 it was investigating whether any of the grant money had in the past been used for a, quote, radical left wing agenda, end quote. The freeze was being challenged in court by the D.C. and Democratic State attorneys general to release the funds, which support six grant programs related to English language learner programs, teacher training, support for children of migrant workers, and academic enrichment activities. For some, the effects of the lost funds would have been severe, particularly in areas with many students who are learning English. In Marshalltown, Iowa, where a pork plant draws migrant agricultural workers and immigrants from dozens of countries, the school district was facing a devastating blow. The impact on parents and families would have been devastating as well. The Associated Press reports the money being released Friday pays for free programming before and after school and during the summer. The programs provide child care so low income parents can work, and they give options to families who live in rural areas with few other child care providers beyond just childcare. Kids receive reading and math help at the programs along with enrichment in sciences and the arts. Without the money, school districts and nonprofits such as the YMCA and the Boys and Girls Club of America have said they would have to close or scale back educational offerings this fall. I just want to be clear. These are federally appropriated funds already voted on and approved by Congress and passed into law. This is not discretionary money. They should never have been withheld in the first place. Arizona Democratic Congressman Greg Stanton had this to say about his state finally receiving its funding. After our pressure campaign, Trump blinked and finally released more than $100 million in funding that his administration was withholding from Arizona classrooms. Not a moment too soon as kids across the state head back to school. This is a big win, but it never should have been an issue in the first place. Trump continues to play games with our kids futures and we're not going to let it stand. Joining us now is the Colorado Attorney General, Democratic Attorney General Phil Weiser. He joined the lawsuit against the Trump administration's Department of Education. He's also running to be Colorado's next governor. Attorney General, good to see you again. Thank you for being with us tonight.
- [28:54]
Donald Trump
Always good to be with you. Ali. You did a great job explaining what's going on. It's hard to believe we're dealing with this again.
- [28:59]
Ali Velshi
Yeah. And I'm gonna ask you to lean into it even more in terms of the explanation because again, I wanna be clear. This is law. This was voted on by Congress. It was, was passed. It was money. It's, it's the same as withholding money from Ukraine that was, you know, authorized by Congress. But the illegality aside, did you get what you needed out of the lawsuit or is there still more that. Is the lawsuit still alive? And is there still more that the federal government should be doing until the.
- [29:25]
Donald Trump
Money that is guaranteed by law is in the hands of the schools? We're not slowing down. This is a overdue statement that the money's going out. But again, the money has not been received. This administration has shown they're not trustworthy, they are reckless, and they are lawless. What you said is exactly correct. This is not like a remotely close call or a difference of opinion. This is a mandate. Congress spends money. Congress has power of the purse. The President, by the constitutional requirement, faithfully executes the laws. We shouldn't be having this conversation.
- [30:05]
Ali Velshi
Right?
- [30:06]
Donald Trump
This money already should be in the hands of the Boys and Girls Clubs in Pueblo, Colorado. Schools across Colorado. Instead, they're scrambling right now not knowing that the money is there. Until they get the money, we're not.
- [30:18]
Ali Velshi
Letting up their excuse about it being radical left wing programs. That's a matter for Congress. If Congress wants to have a proper regular order and discuss why they fund certain things and why they don't fund. I mean, this is the same Doge argument, right? If you guys want to have this discussion, have it. Part of the problem here is that they targeted programs, grants that support English language learners, children of migrant workers, teacher training, after school enrichment. It ended up disproportionately targeting particular types.
- [30:48]
Donald Trump
Of districts for Colorado. Let me go back to this example, like you mentioned, Boys and Girls Clubs in Pueblo, Colorado. It is a community that has large number of Latinos. It is a community that is dependent on this. And to withhold the money means you're hurting kids, you're hurting families. These are people who depend on these programs. These are lives that are at stake. Other examples you mentioned academic enrichment. That means using technology in schools to help people learn. A lot of schools are looking at artificial intelligence. There's a great company in Kawarta called Magischool developing programs that help teachers teach. That sort of adoption of new technology is funded by these grants. And if you don't get the money in time, you can't make these investments in time. This is reckless. Students are hurting still with lower learning loss from the pandemic. We should be putting more money in public education, not making these sorts of funds.
- [31:44]
Ali Velshi
The return on that is fantastic. This business, by the way, I just want to ask you one quick question because the argument about radical left wing agenda, you guys are attorneys general. Somebody has to prove that, right? Like nobody. There was no evidence. There was nothing to do with radical left wing agenda that was brought forward.
- [32:01]
Donald Trump
This is what's so unbelievable about the moment we're in in the court of law. You can't just make unhinged statements and use it as a justification. And so what probably happened here is the lawyers looked at this case and they said, we can't justify this. We have no legs to stand on. You're exactly right. There's no evidentiary basis to say this is some radical left wing agenda. This is about learning. It's about learning English. It's about learning American history. It's about helping people develop social skills. This is important work. They're just making up stuff because, I don't know, they think that education doesn't matter. It is mind numbing, both as a policy matter, as a moral matter and as a legal matter. How did we get here?
- [32:48]
Ali Velshi
Attorney General Phil Weiser of Colorado, Good to see you again. Thank you for being with us tonight. We'll stay on top of the story with you. All right. Coming up, this week gave us another lesson on just how simple it can be to fact check Donald Trump's lies, even right to his face. We'll show you that moment next.
- [33:04]
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Ali Velshi
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- [34:40]
Ali Velshi
Fact checking Donald Trump and his never ending list of lies and fantasies seems daunting sometimes. So this week we got a lesson on just how simple it can be. And in real time on live tv. Watch Fed chair Jerome Powell. He's going to be on the right side of the image on your screen. Dismantle Donald Trump's latest made up reason to attack and possibly fire him. The ongoing renovation at the Federal Reserve.
- [35:06]
Ghislaine Maxwell
So we're taking a look and it looks like it's about 3.1 billion. Went up a little bit or a lot. So the 2.7 is now 3.1 and.
- [35:17]
Ali Velshi
Not aware of that?
- [35:18]
Ghislaine Maxwell
Yeah, it just came out.
- [35:20]
Ali Velshi
Yeah, I haven't heard that from anybody at the Fed.
- [35:23]
Ghislaine Maxwell
It just came out.
- [35:28]
Ali Velshi
Our notice had it about 3.1 as well.
- [35:30]
Ghislaine Maxwell
3.1, 3.2.
- [35:32]
Ali Velshi
This came from us?
- [35:33]
Ghislaine Maxwell
Yes. I don't know who does that.
- [35:38]
Ali Velshi
You're including the Martin renovation.
- [35:40]
Donald Trump
You just added.
- [35:41]
Ali Velshi
You just, you just added in a third building is what that is. That's a third building.
- [35:45]
Ghislaine Maxwell
It's a building that's being built.
- [35:47]
Ali Velshi
No, it's been. It was built five years ago. We finished Martin five years ago.
- [35:51]
Ghislaine Maxwell
It's part of the overall work.
- [35:56]
Ali Velshi
You just added in a third building just the facts. Amazing how effective that can be. That kind of fact checking can also be extended to Republicans who often follow their leader's tendency to bend the truth. Take Republican Congressman Gabe Evans of Colorado. He was elected to Congress in 2024 after running a MAGA Forward campaign. Here's a short clip from one of his campaign ads that ran in Colorado last year.
- [36:21]
Donald Trump
I took an oath to protect the American dream that my abuelito Chavez immigrated from Mexico to achieve.
- [36:27]
Ali Velshi
But that dream is under attack from drugs, lawlessness and violent crime. Gabe Evans grandfather, or abuelito, became a central figure in his campaign. Evans used his grandfather's immigration journey to justify his support of Donald Trump's deportation agenda. Listen to Gabe Evans in a Republican debate from last year telling a story about his grandfather's immigration to America.
- [36:52]
Donald Trump
The story of my family is the story of somebody who earned two Purple Hearts to earn his citizenship. There's folks that came to this country legally and so if you're in this country illegally, we want you to follow the law.
- [37:05]
Ali Velshi
We are a nation that is ruled by law.
- [37:07]
Donald Trump
So you need to go stand in that line and do it the right way, do it the legal way so that you're not leapfrogging over those folks like my grandfather that did it the.
- [37:14]
Chase Woodruff
Right way and did it the legal way.
- [37:17]
Ali Velshi
That's such a good story. You're not leapfrogging over folks like my grandfather who did it the right way and did it the legal way. Congressman Evans clearly didn't anticipate anybody fact checking that story because as it turns out, there are some pretty glaring holes in it and reporter Chase Woodruff found them. Here's some of his reports for Colorado Newsline. Congressman Evans has mischaracterized the story of how his Depression era ancestors achieved the American Dream and misstated key dates and details in his grandfather's biography. A 1941 Immigration Naturalization Service document obtained through a records request with the U.S. citizenship and Immigration Services shows that Evans grandfather entered the country unlawfully with his mother and siblings in 1929 at the age of five and resided unlawfully in Texas for the intervening 12 years. The document, known as an Alien Registration form, or an AR2, was prepared shortly after Evan's grandfather, then 16 years old, was arrested for an immigration violation in El Paso and made the subject of deportation proceedings. Evans grandfather, AR2 form, also lists a prior undated arrest for attempted burglary, placing the 16 year old in a category of immigrants that Evans has said without exception, should be deported. Now that is some reporting joining us now is Chase Woodruff, senior reporter at Colorado Newsline. I mean, Chase, like every reporter needs to have a session with you and just figure this out. Why'd you even do that? Why did you go down that road?
- [38:51]
Chase Woodruff
It was over a year ago now that I first heard Representative Evans tell this story at a Republican debate last year. And I think the next day I submitted a FOIA request to Immigration Services. And it took almost a year to get this form. But that eventually did come through just on a lark.
- [39:10]
Ali Velshi
I mean, you weren't looking for something in particular. You were just being a reporter saying, I hear the story. My job to confirm whether what he's saying is true.
- [39:18]
Chase Woodruff
Yeah, I think so. And as. As you were reading there, I mean, he has. He has put this story to a very specific use and in defending and justifying Trump mass deportation policies.
- [39:28]
Ali Velshi
So you wouldn't, you wouldn't necessarily be inclined if somebody were just telling a story, but it wasn't tied to a policy or particularly a policy that. That is. That affects a lot of people. Sure.
- [39:38]
Chase Woodruff
I think. I mean, the policy stakes here are very clear. I mean, Congressman Evans supports an approach to immigration policy that based on these documents, we found millions of people in the country unlawfully today, he believes should be treated differently than his grandfather was almost a century ago.
- [39:57]
Ali Velshi
In fact, if his policies were in place in 1929, there wouldn't be a Congressman Evans here in the United States. He'd be somewhere else, quite possibly. Has he reacted to your reporting?
- [40:11]
Chase Woodruff
He has not said much. He did not respond to interview requests for our story, didn't really respond to most of our questions. His team gave us some canned statements. They basically doubled down on saying he did it the right way, which may not have met 100% the legal way, but was still. They still want to contrast that with immigrants who are coming today who they are saying are doing it the wrong way. Whether that is true is another question.
- [40:42]
Ali Velshi
Maybe this is not a question you're in a position to answer. I was curious whether he was surprised to learn of this stuff because maybe he's never seen that document. Maybe he's just telling lore that has come down the line in his story, which would be understandable because we don't really necessarily want to tell our kids or grandkids about the time we got arrested or whether he was caught in a lie.
- [41:03]
Chase Woodruff
Yeah, I mean, that's at the top of the list of questions we had for him. And that he didn't answer is what he knew when, as you said, very possible that are any of us who have grandparents, great grandparents who may have immigrated long ago, I don't think that we would have necessarily seen these specific forms that we obtained through a Rutgers request. So it's very possible, if he wants to speak with us or speak with anyone else to tell us about his reaction to learning this potentially for the first time. And given all of the things that he has said about folks who are immigrating today and focusing on violent criminal immigrants, as he often does, to learning that his grandfather was accused of a crime, you know, I would be interested to know his reaction to that.
- [41:56]
Ali Velshi
Chase I've been a reporter for 30 years. I learned some things tonight about how to just, you know, clean up my craft. So I appreciate that. Thank you on behalf of all journalists for the work you did there. Chase woodruff, Colorado Newsline Senior Reporter and as promised, Lawrence is going to get tonight's last word. That's next.
- [42:26]
J
House Republicans have been trying to destroy Democratic mayors of of big cities in congressional hearings designed to attack and politically humiliate Democratic mayors. As we reported on this program at the time, on Ash Wednesday, Boston's Mayor Michelle Wu masterfully crushed her Republican inquisitors.
- [42:48]
Lisa Rubin
We are the cradle of democracy and the city of champions. We are all of these things, not in spite of our immigrants, but because of them. False narrative is that immigrants in general are criminals or immigrants in general cause all sorts of danger and harm. That is actually what is undermining safety in our communities. If you wanted to make us safe, pass gun reforms, stop cutting Medicaid, stop cutting cancer research, stop cutting funds for veterans. That is what will make our city safe.
- [43:22]
J
Boston voters noticed last week in response to a poll, Rachel Wyon told the Boston Globe she went down to Washington and testified and did a phenomenal job. I was very proud to say that I lived in Boston. And that new Boston Globe Suffolk University poll of Boston voters shows Mayor Wu leading the field in her re election campaign with 60%. With the fortunate son of the billionaire owner of the local professional football team running second at 30 points behind Mayor Wu. 66% of voters say they have a favorable view of Mayor Wu, while 36% say they have a favorable view of Joshua Kraft, the very well financed challenger who recently moved to Boston to run for mayor on what appears to be the mistaken calculation that unlimited amounts of money and a family association with a full football team that stopped calling themselves the Boston Patriots 54 years ago when they moved to a distant suburb would be enough to convince voters to turn against their mayor who is the daughter of immigrants and a graduate of Harvard College and Harvard Law School. She is also a mother of three with children in the Boston public school system. The billionaire Kraft family might discover the heart of that the voters of Boston are the real Boston patriots.
- [44:50]
Ali Velshi
And Lawrence gets tonight's last word. Tomorrow, I hope you'll join me for another meeting in the Velshi Band Book Club. Tomorrow's meeting will focus on the 133 bills introduced across the country in an attempt to criminalize librarians, cut funding and restrict literary content just since January. Tomorrow we'll discuss the grassroots organization and the people who are fighting back. Don't miss my conversation with the author, the activist and the longtime member of the Welshy Band Book Club, one of America's most banned authors, George M. Johnson. That's tomorrow Morning on Velshi, 10am Eastern, right here on MSNBC.
- [45:22]
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