Trump & RFK Jr. throw CDC into complete chaos

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell

Episode: Trump & RFK Jr. throw CDC into complete chaos
Date: August 29, 2025
Host: Ali Velshi (guest hosting for Lawrence O’Donnell)

---

Overview

This episode centers on the Trump administration’s systematic attacks on U.S. federal agencies—especially the CDC—focusing on the abrupt dismissal of CDC Director Dr. Susan Monarez. The show highlights the chaos sparked by Robert F. Kennedy Jr.'s tenure as Secretary of Health and Human Services (HHS), the installation of anti-science figures in critical roles, and the mass exodus or firing of scientific experts. The discussion also touches on related power struggles, including Trump’s attempt to oust Federal Reserve Governor Lisa Cook, and the unprecedented mishandling of sensitive federal data.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. CDC Meltdown: Firing of Dr. Susan Monarez and Aftermath

Timestamps: [01:53]-[08:34], [09:34]-[17:36]

• Resignation and Rally at CDC

  • Senior vaccine researchers and public health leaders resign after Monarez is fired for refusing to implement RFK Jr.'s anti-vaccine agenda.
  • CDC staff hold a public "clap-out" in Atlanta to honor the departing scientists, a move seen as courageous given the administration's threats against dissent.
    • "It's powerful what they're doing...everyone who did that did so at risk to themselves." —Ali Velshi [01:34]

• RFK Jr.'s Influence and Jim O’Neill’s Expected Appointment

  • RFK Jr., lacking formal science or medicine credentials, is set to appoint Jim O’Neill—a venture capitalist often critical of the CDC—as acting director.
  • O’Neill previously criticized CDC data handling and communications during COVID, reflecting a broader pattern of replacing experts with ideologues.
  • RFK Jr.’s comments suggest institutional malaise in CDC, calling for “strong leadership” that will realize President Trump’s ambitions.
    • "We need strong leadership that will go in there and execute on President Trump’s broad ambitions." —RFK Jr. (as quoted by O'Malley/Velshi) [05:00]

• Senate and Public Backlash

  • Senator Bernie Sanders calls for an immediate investigation into Monarez's firing, declaring a "full-blown war on science, on public health and on truth itself."

    • “We will not stand by silently as Secretary Kennedy takes [vaccines] away. Let us be clear, we are witnessing a full-blown war on science, on public health and on truth itself.” —Sen. Bernie Sanders [05:40]

  • Senator Angela Alsobrooks (D-MD) strongly condemns RFK Jr. during her confirmation hearing, highlighting his troubling, pseudoscientific, and racially charged remarks.

    • “You said the following, and I quote, we should not be giving black people the same vaccine schedule that’s given to whites because their immune system is better than ours. Can you please explain what you meant?” —Sen. Alsobrooks to RFK Jr. [06:50]
    • “That is so dangerous… I will be voting against your nomination because your science views are dangerous to our state and to our country.” —Sen. Alsobrooks [07:29]

• Wider Consequences and Fear for Public Health

  • Ongoing mass resignations, defunding of research, and replacement of scientists with conspiracy theorists leave the CDC unable to respond to new outbreaks.
  • Measles and other preventable diseases are resurging.
  • Veteran public health leaders warn that the administration’s policies echo eugenics thinking, as seen in RFK Jr.’s remarks about “superior genetics.”
    • ”If there are kids who… get infected and do well, that’s great. We shouldn’t be giving them vaccines… so that we can really propagate the strongest of the species. What he said about chickens is what he believes about people, and that’s scary.” —Dr. Dimitri Daskalakis [08:34]

• Senator Alsobrooks: The Progressive Rebuttal

  • Calls for Kennedy’s resignation/firing, noting irreversible damage: "We are going to pay as a country in years to come for this moment... Robert F. Kennedy must be fired. He must resign or must be fired immediately." [12:32]
  • Emphasizes that CDC’s strength lies in science, not in politics or business interests.
    • “We want scientists and doctors making these decisions, not venture capitalists like Jim O’Neill... this is serious work.” —Sen. Alsobrooks [13:54]
  • Urges bipartisan action, highlighting the apolitical nature of health and science: “This is not a partisan issue. The health and well-being of our children, of our families, really is at stake right now.” [15:11]

• Scientific Integrity and U.S. Leadership

  • The U.S. is at risk of losing its edge in disease surveillance, research, and response because of anti-science policies. Eliminations at NIH and HHS are jeopardizing innovations that would have saved lives in years ahead.
    • “America is ahead in the world… because of science and research. And what we are seeing now is a very scary time where we will lose ground.” —Sen. Alsobrooks [13:54]
  • RFK Jr. broke his promise not to fire working scientists—over 3,000 have reportedly been terminated [16:39].

2. Federal Reserve Independence Under Attack: Firing Lisa Cook

Timestamps: [01:53], [28:00]-[37:02]

• News of Trump’s Attempt to Fire Federal Reserve Governor Lisa Cook

  • Cook sues Trump for attempting to remove her without cause—a move deemed unprecedented and illegal.
  • Lawsuit requests an emergency restraining order, calling Trump’s effort “a blatant grab for power in defiance of the nation’s laws.”
  • Experts warn this undermines the century-old independence of the Federal Reserve and could destabilize the U.S. and global economies.

• Implications for Economic Stability

  • Gene Sperling explains that global central banking independence was modeled after the U.S. and that political influence over monetary policy has led to hyperinflation (e.g., Turkey, Argentina).
    • “If you start having a Fed that does not operate free of politics and operates on political whims, this could actually cost you real money.” —Ali Velshi [31:50]
  • Andrew Weissman details the legal standards: due process and cause are required for such dismissals, and Trump's actions ignore both.
    • “She was given no notice, no opportunity to confront the allegations, no hearing at all… that’s what it means to be for cause.” —Andrew Weissman [32:30]

• Pretexts and Political Purges

  • The justifications for Cook’s firing are widely seen as pretextual, targeting her for political reasons. This opens the door for the executive branch to purge independent agencies.
    • “If all somebody has to do is pick out political enemies… and make an accusation on social media, and that is for cause, then for cause becomes meaningless.” —Gene Sperling [34:49]
    • The risk is that Trump could install a compliant majority on the Fed Board, ending its independence.

---

3. Federal Data Security Crisis: Social Security Data Breach

Timestamps: [38:54]-[46:13]

• Whistleblower Alleges Largest Data Breach in US History

  • Charles Borges, SSA’s Chief Data Officer, files a complaint: Trump’s “Department of Government Efficiency” (DOGE), led by Elon Musk, copy the data of 300+ million Americans to an unsecured cloud controlled outside SSA oversight.
  • Data copied includes name, place/date of birth, citizenship, race, and parents’ names—putting Americans at risk of identity theft and loss of benefits.
  • Former SSA Commissioner Martin O’Malley describes the move as:
    • “The greatest taking of personal identifying data in US history, greatest theft, pirating away, whatever you want to call it.” —Martin O’Malley [40:50]
  • No risk assessments were performed, violating numerous federal privacy and cybersecurity laws.

• Potential Legal and Financial Fallout

  • This action could force the government to reissue all Social Security numbers, cost trillions, and trigger the largest class action in history under the Privacy Act of 1974.
  • O’Malley points out: “He’s putting the risk on the American people… This could be the largest class action in American history… 340 million people times $1,000.” [43:51]
  • Remarks on absurd and dangerous justification by Musk-affiliated officials: "I have determined the business need is higher than the security risk... I accept all risks." —Aram Mogadhesi (as cited by Velshi) [42:17]

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Let’s get the politics out of public health and let the science lead us, because that’s how we get to the best decisions for public health.” —Martin O’Malley [03:06]

• “This administration, all they ever talk about is how we’re gonna find you and go after you. So everybody who did the [clap out for departing CDC scientists] did so at risk to themselves.” —Ali Velshi [01:34]

• “RFK Jr. lied to my face when he said, I will not fire working scientists… 3,000 working scientists have been fired.” —Sen. Angela Alsobrooks [16:39]

• “In public health, what’s predictable is preventable. And so we see where this is going. I fear we have squandered that opportunity.” —Dr. Nirav Shah [26:26]

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

| Time (MM:SS) | Segment Description | |--------------|----------------------------------| | 01:53 | Start of main content — Trump and RFK Jr. actions at CDC | | 03:06 | CDC staff, public “clap-out,” calls for science-based leadership | | 05:40 | Sen. Sanders' statement on CDC firings and science “war” | | 06:50 | Sen. Alsobrooks confronts RFK Jr. on vaccine pseudoscience and race | | 08:34 | Dr. Daskalakis on RFK Jr.’s eugenics-like rhetoric | | 09:34 | Sen. Alsobrooks interview – “the systematic dismantling of the public health system” | | 13:54 | The critical role of CDC in health surveillance and dangers of anti-science leadership | | 16:39 | NIH/HHS job eliminations, loss of scientific capacity, broken promises | | 21:02 | Dr. Nirav Shah explains real-life dangers of CDC leadership vacuum | | 28:00 | Trump’s attempt to fire Fed Governor Lisa Cook and legal context | | 31:50 | Economic stakes of central bank independence (Sperling/Weissman) | | 38:54 | Data breach at Social Security Administration—whistleblower and national security risks (O'Malley interview) |

---

Conclusion: Episode’s Takeaways

This episode paints an urgent, alarming portrait of institutional decay and the loss of American leadership in science and governance. Through candid interviews and guest commentary, it argues that political interference—driven by anti-science ideology and personal vendettas—has eviscerated the nation’s public health and economic safeguards. The result, hosts and guests warn, is a country dangerously exposed to public health crises, economic instability, and sweeping violations of privacy.

---

For listeners:
This summary captures the high-stakes narratives and expert perspectives discussed in the episode. The tone is urgent, testimony is impactful, and developments presented are matters of life, death, and the future integrity of American institutions.

Transcript

[Host/Announcer]

This episode is brought to you by Huggies Little Movers. It's fun having a baby that loves to move, but it can be challenging to find a diaper that can keep up with them. Huggies Little Movers is designed to move with your baby with either the double grip strips or the new HugFit 360 degree waistband. You can be confident relying on Huggies Little Movers for your active little ones. Huggies Little Movers made with double grip strips or the new HugFit 360 degree waistband so your little double can keep moving like you Huggies. We got you, baby.

[Mint Mobile Advertiser]

Mint is still $15 a month for premium wireless. And if you haven't made the switch yet, here are 15 reasons why you should. One, it's $15 a month. Two, seriously, it's $15 a month. Three, no big contracts. Four, I use it. Five, my mom uses it. Are you, are you playing me off? That's what's happening, right? Okay, give it a try.

[Host/Announcer]

@Mintmobile.Com Switch upfront payment of $45 for three month plan. $15 per month equivalent required. New customer offer first three months only, then full price plan options available. Taxes and fees extra. See mintmobile.com the Last Word starts right now with Allie Velchean for Lawrence.

[Ali Velchean]

Hey, Ali, I learned a lot from your interview with one of those leaders from the CDC who left. I actually came out of that a little more hopeful. Yeah.

[Host/Announcer]

And it's really inspiring that he and others are coming out and trying to share accurate information with the public. It is a travesty that they had to felt the need to walk out. They're such important people in the building. But it's powerful what they're doing. It's also incredibly powerful to see hundreds of CDC employees give the clap out.

[Ali Velchean]

To because there's videos and there's cameras. And this administration, all they ever talk about is how we're gonna find you and we're gonna go after you. So everybody who did that did so at risk to themselves. Exactly. In the defense of fairness, science and the way things should go. So thank you for a very informative interview. Hope you have a great night.

[Host/Announcer]

Thank you, Ali. Have a great show.

[Ali Velchean]

Tonight, news of the Trump administration's assault on competency and the independence of federal agencies is breaking on two different fronts. Federal Reserve Governor Lisa Cook has sued Donald Trump over his attempts to remove her from the central Bank's Board of Governors, calling the move unprecedented and illegal. In her lawsuit filed today, a judge has scheduled a hearing on Lisa Cook's temporary restraining order for 10am tomorrow. We'll have more on the lawsuit and tomorrow's hearing when Andrew Weissman and Gene Sperling join us later in the hour. But we begin with the absolute that Donald Trump has created at the place tasked with being this nation's frontline defense against life threatening diseases, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the cdc. Today, staff at the CDC gathered just outside its Atlanta headquarters to honor the senior vaccine, research and public health leaders. See this gentleman in the front of your screen here. He was talking to Jen just a little while ago. They resigned after the CDC director, Dr. Susan Monarz, was fired for refusing to carry out Robert F. Kennedy Jr. S anti vaccine agenda. Drs. Dan Jernigan and Deb Hoori, who resigned yesterday, also spoke at the rally.

[Martin O'Malley]

What makes us great at CDC is following the science. So let's get the politics out of public health and let the science lead.

[Ali Velchean]

Us because that's how we get to.

[Martin O'Malley]

The best decisions for public health.

[Host/Announcer]

We need Congress to intervene, we need our appropriations, we need to follow science. We need to have ethics back. All of these scientists, like Dimitri and.

[Senator Angela Alsobrooks]

Dion said, are doing the work on the ground.

[Host/Announcer]

We need to be able to do it without interference and following data and science.

[Ali Velchean]

Now the anti science vaccine denier that Donald Trump and the Republican Party saw fit to install as the secretary of Health and Human Services, Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. Is expected to name an acting CDC director, and reports indicate that that person will be Deputy Health and Human Services Director. Jim o'. Neill. The Washington Post reports that as a Silicon Valley investor and entrepreneur, Jim o' Neill worked on issues such as longevity, briefly serving as CEO of Sens Research foundation, an anti aging organization. He was tapped in 2023 to serve on the board of directors for Advantage Therapeutics, which is developing therapies to treat neurodegenerative conditions with a focus on Alzheimer. O' Neill was a frequent critic of the CDC during the height of the coronavirus pandemic, arguing on social media that the agency had botched data collection, poorly communicated with the public and had too much influence. RFK Jr. Who, remember, has no formal training in science or medicine, had this to say about the crisis that he helped create at the nation's top public health agency. We need to look at the priorities of the agency.

[Martin O'Malley]

If there's really a deeply, deeply embedded, I would say, malaise at the agency.

[Ali Velchean]

And we need strong leadership that will.

[Martin O'Malley]

Go in there and that will be.

[Ali Velchean]

Able to execute on President Trump's broad ambitions. Donald Trump nominated Dr. Susan Menarez to execute on his broad ambitions. Just five months ago in a social media post, Donald Trump praised Dr. Manarez in March, writing, quote, as an incredible mother and dedicated public servant, Dr. Manares understands the importance of protecting our children, our communities and our future. Americans have lost confidence in the CDC due to political bias and disastrous mismanagement. Today the top Democrat on the Senate Health Committee, Bernie Sanders, called for a bipartisan investigation into the firing of Dr. Manares. In a statement, Senator Sanders said, quote, I applaud the workers at CDC for standing up for science and protesting the reckless decision of Secretary Kennedy to push out leading scientists from the agency. Speaking up takes real courage. Vaccines are one of the greatest public health achievements of the 20th century and we will not stand by silently as Secretary Kennedy takes them away. Let us be clear, we are witnessing a full blown war on science, on public health and on truth itself. In just six months, Secretary Kennedy has dismantled the vaccine review process, narrowed access to life saving Covid vaccines and filled scientific advisory boards with conspiracy theorists and ideologues. Dr. Manarez was reportedly fired because she refused to serve as a rubber stamp for Secretary Kennedy's dangerous anti vaccine crusade. That is outrageous and unacceptable. History will not look kindly on those who stayed silent in the face of this assault on science. We have a moral responsibility to act now. Our next guest, Maryland Senator Angela also Brooks also serves alongside Senator Sanders on the Health, Education, labor and Pensions Committee.

[Andrew Weissman]

Senator.

[Ali Velchean]

Senator also Brooks had this exchange with Robert F. Kennedy during his confirmation hearing in January.

[Senator Angela Alsobrooks]

You said the following, and I quote, we should not be giving black people the same vaccine schedule that's given to whites because their immune system is better than ours. Can you please explain what you meant?

[Gene Sperling]

There's differences in reaction to different products by different races.

[Senator Angela Alsobrooks]

Let me just ask you then, so what different vaccine schedule would you say I should have received? What different vaccine schedule should I receive?

[Ali Velchean]

I mean the pollen article suggests that.

[Gene Sperling]

Blacks need fewer antigens than.

[Senator Angela Alsobrooks]

This is so dangerous.

[Martin O'Malley]

Measles vaccine.

[Senator Angela Alsobrooks]

Mr. Kennedy, with all due respect, that is so dangerous. Your voice would be a voice that parents would listen to. That is so dangerous. I will be voting against your nomination because you're science views are dangerous to our state and to our country.

[Ali Velchean]

Since Robert Kennedy's Republican led confirmation, Senator also Brooks has repeatedly called on Senator Kennedy to resign. Under Senator Secretary Kennedy. I'm sorry, Secretary Kennedy. Under Secretary Kennedy, the CDC has forced mass resignations, firings, defunded research, leaving the agency unable to respond effectively to public health threats. The pattern is clear. Punish the Fed for Refusing to cut interest rates. Attack the Bureau of Labor Statistics for unwelcome economic news. Target defense intelligence for inconvenient reports. And now one man's ego and one man's conspiracy theories are dismantling the institutions meant to protect Americans, leaving this country exposed to preventable outbreaks and escalating health crises. Dr. Dimitri Daskalakis, who joined my colleague Jen Psaki in the last hour, knew that when he resigned, he was talking.

[Unnamed Commentator]

About his desire to have an avian flu burned through chickens. And the chickens that survive, they're the ones that should be bred. And those are the words that he said. They're available to watch. And he said, because those chickens have the superior genetics. And then one minute later, he said that the president also has superior genetics. So, I mean, from my perspective, as someone who has sort of the cultural background of a grandfather who was killed fighting fascism in Greece, that's sort of, like, embedded in my brain. And I heard that, and I'm like, so that's what this is all about. So if there are kids who. Who get infected and do well, that's great. We shouldn't be giving them vaccines, I guess, so that we can really propagate the strongest of the species. I feel like what he said about chickens is what he believes about people, and that's scary. And America should know that.

[Ali Velchean]

America should definitely know that. Joining me now is Democratic Senator Angela, also Brooks of Maryland. She's a member of the Health, Education, labor and Pensions Committee. Senator, thank you for being with us.

[Senator Angela Alsobrooks]

Thank you for having me.

[Ali Velchean]

So many discussions to have here, but I think I want to start with that one, because you started that in your conversation at Secretary Kennedy's nomination. And then this doctor brought it up tonight. He's talking about eugenics. He's kind of talking about different people having different reactions stuff, and letting sort of nature take its course.

[Senator Angela Alsobrooks]

Yeah, I mean, what we know is, and you're right, I mentioned it from the very start. I saw this coming, very sadly, how dangerous the policies of this secretary would be to the American people. What we have seen is the systematic dismantling of the public health system in our country, the firing experts, the pseudoscience. We've seen the quackery. And this has been just very, very dangerous. And I saw it months ago, demanded that he resign or be fired back in May. And it's just getting worse. I mean, it's worse by the week, in fact, is what we're seeing is very, very dangerous. You saw the firing of Dr. Monterez, but the four scientists. And these are serious people. Unlike Secretary Kennedy and the others, they are trained in science and medicine. And we saw them walk out. These are serious people who oversaw the swine flu react. That led that anthrax and other things. This is horrible.

[Ali Velchean]

Right? We got measles coming back in America in a way that seems entirely unnecessary. But, you know, during COVID one of the things we. We really had to contend with was a lot of black people in this country who, for very valid reasons, historical reasons, worried about a mandated vaccine because they've had a history in which governments mandated things that should happen to black people that weren't right. And there was a real effort to try and gain the confidence of black Americans in terms of the fact that, hey, this was real science that developed these things, and it should be okay. You mentioned in your testimony, in your interview with Secretary Kennedy, there are people who are gonna listen to the stuff that he says and make judgments about their children. So if you're the least bit skeptical about vaccines to start with, which some people validly are in this country, this is what's gonna happen. Your kid's just not gonna get vaccinated.

[Senator Angela Alsobrooks]

It's why. You're right. It's why it's so dangerous to weaponize and politicize science. It's the reason we trust scientists. We do not trust quacks like Secretary Kennedy again, without any training whatsoever. These theories that have no basis at all in science are the ones that the public would be expected to listen to and to trust. And what we know is that if we listen to Secretary Kennedy and if we listen to the person who we think he's going to put in now, Jim o'. Neill. What we know is that we will not only be less safe, but I am so fearful that people will not only be sicker, but they will die. So this is a very, very scary time. It is really heartening to have seen these scientists who have worked again. They didn't care who the President was. They've worked for decades because they served the American people for decades. Whether the President was a Democrat or Republican, they are there to serve. But to have these people be the ones who have been again, unceremoniously silenced. These are people who have been fired. This is horrible, and it is dangerous. And we are going to pay as a country in years to come for this moment that we are seeing right now, the dismantling of the public health system in our country. Robert F. Kennedy must be fired. He must resign or must be fired immediately.

[Ali Velchean]

The cdc, a lot of people who study it say, look, there are places that could be reformed, like every major agency or government. I mean, everything, everything can use some reform, but it's pretty much the gold standard. And one of the advantages of it is when it issues both, it conducts a lot of surveillance. Right? A lot of stuff people don't know about the CDC is it's just watching. It's watching water supplies, it's watching sewer supplies, it's figuring out, it's getting input from hospitals about being able to detect when there's a breakout of a disease. But what it does is it prevents us from all having to go to Google to try and figure out what's wrong and come to our own conclusions. Because half the stuff on the Internet about healthcare is misinformation anyway.

[Senator Angela Alsobrooks]

Well, that's why we want scientists and doctors making these decisions, not venture capitalists like Jim o'. Neill. A person who is not a scientist or not a doctor. This is serious work and it requires the expertise and the training the scientists, researchers and doctors bring to bear. You know, America is ahead in the country. I mean, in the world. It's known we are exceptional because of science and research. And what we are seeing now is a very scary time where we will lose ground. And this is what makes our country exceptional. And we cannot tolerate the leadership of someone like Secretary Kennedy who espouses pseudoscience and who rejects the expertise and the knowledge that scientists and doctors bring.

[Ali Velchean]

Unfortunately, you can't go backwards and un recommend him as some of your colleagues in the Senate did for appointment, but there's no actual news here. In other words, you pointed this out in his confirmation hearings. Lots of people did. Everything he's ever said has been written down. None of this is actually surprising.

[Senator Angela Alsobrooks]

It isn't, sadly. You know, I introduced a resolution back in May as well demanding that he be fired or that he resign. It's not new, but, you know, I think what is new is that we're seeing more and more people, I think, who are leaning in and paying attention to this. And I am really hopeful that before long some of my colleagues, even on the other side of the aisle, will also join my call and the call of so many others who are concerned about the health and well being of the American people. This is not a partisan issue. The health and well being of our children, of our families, really is at stake right now. And we have seen it CDC, we've seen it at NIH. We've really seen the attack. 20,000 eliminations, job eliminations at Health and Human services just over the last few months. This is going. These are real people who are not easy to replace. And I am just hoping that my colleagues on the other side of the aisle also will join me and others in our call for the secretary for Secretary Kennedy to be filed.

[Ali Velchean]

They should think about NIH for a second. You brought that up. There's nowhere in the world where there is a better direct investment in basic research that ends up in things that you and I don't even know. Right. There's somebody working on something today with an NIH grant, hopefully, that will result in a cure for a disease that you and I might not even know that we don't get for 20 or 25 years. And then suddenly there's a cure because someone was working in obscurity under a government grant paid for with my taxpayer dollars. Best return on research investment on earth.

[Senator Angela Alsobrooks]

Absolutely. And there's nothing political about that. And again, it should not be weaponized. Science should not be weaponized. And you're right. The research that takes many, many years to engage in and to come to conclusions and to solve many of the illnesses, cancer research, Alzheimer's, it takes decades. And this research is being upended. That's what we should know. And you know what? RFK Jr. Lied to my face when he said, I will not fire working scientists. He said this in a hearing, and that's exactly what he has done. 3000 working scientists have been fired. And these are people, again, who are not easy to replace. This is a moment that really does call again for all of us to speak up very loudly. I will continue to call on his call on him to be fired or to resign until it happens. And I see again every day it's becoming more and more obvious that this is absolutely what has to happen.

[Ali Velchean]

Senator, thank you for your time tonight. We appreciate it. Senator Angela, also Brooks. All right, coming up, while much of the fight over the ousting of the CDC Director Susan Minares, at least thus far, has been political, there are a lot of medical experts across the country who are now very, very worried, as we just discussed, about the real life and death implications of what the Trump administration has done. That's next.

[Mint Mobile Advertiser]

Mint is still $15 a month for premium wireless. And if you haven't made the switch yet, here are 15 reasons why you should. One, it's $15 a month. Two, seriously, it's $15 a month. Three, no big contracts. Four, I use it. Five, my mom uses it. Are you, are you playing me off? That's what's happening right okay, give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment of $45.

[Host/Announcer]

For three month plan $15 per month equivalent required New customer offer first three months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See mintmobile.com I'm not switching my team to some fancy work platform that somehow knows exactly how we work and its AI features are literally saving us hours every day. We're big fans and just like that, teams all around the world are falling for Monday.com with intuitive design, seamless AI capabilities and custom workflows, it's the work platform your team will instantly click with. Head to Monday.com, the first work platform you'll love to use. Big moments or small moments? They all deserve great style At Maurices, we're here to help you show up feeling your best. No matter what's on your calendar. Whether it's a date night, a special event or just another Tuesday, our over 800 stylists are here to help. From tried and true denim to head turning looks, we've got style that fits your life and your budget. Visit your local Maurices to find fashion fit for you. With a little help from us.

[Ali Velchean]

Like any legitimate health professional, Susan Menara has had personal and professional lines that she was not willing to cross. Politico reports Quote Susan Monarz, the newly ousted director of the cdc, refused to fire top agency leaders and sign off on changes to vaccines from Health Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. S hand picked panel of vaccine advisors, according to Richard Besser, CEO of the Robert Wood Johnson foundation and a former acting CDC director. Besser told reporters at a press conference Thursday that He spoke to Manara's at 1pm Wednesday, hours before HHS posted on the social media site X that she was no longer director of the agency. Richard Besser elaborated on what Manarus told him on Meet the Press now earlier today.

[Richard Besser]

What she said to me is that she had a couple lines in the sand which is so critical when you're in these roles. She said she would never do anything illegal and she would never do anything that ran counter to the science. And she said the secretary asked her to do both. He asked her to remove the leaders from cdc, which is illegal to remove civil service employees without cause, and she was asked to approve endorse recommendations coming out of the Advisory committee on vaccines that she did not believe represented the best science. And so because of that she said that she could not do those things. She was asked to resign and said she would not resign and so expected that she would get Fired.

[Ali Velchean]

Joining us now is Dr. Nirav Shah. He was the former principal Deputy director of the CDC, stepped down from his role at the CDC earlier this year. Dr. Shah, good to see you. You know, when Donald Trump fired the head of the Bureau of Labor Statistics. I'm an economics guy, so it's not abstract to me, but I can totally get why it's abstract to most people. Then he goes after Lisa Cook at the Fed and we can start to make better arguments about how that's actually gonna affect people and their money and things like that. This is yet more. This is much closer to the ground. Right. Getting rid of somebody at CDC has real world effects on people.

[Dr. Nirav Shah]

That's exactly right. And thank you for having me on. I tend to view maneuvers of this nature through the Secretary's stated goal of making Americans healthy again. And the bottom line here is that moves of this sort will not make Americans healthy again. We are facing an increasing risk of public health threats all around us, whether it's measles, whether it's Legionnaires disease in New York, whether it's foodborne outbreaks. And what the CDC does fundamentally is serve as the nation's watchtower. The CDC prevents, detects and responds to threats of this nature. And when you don't have strong, capable leaders who are watching the dashboard, when there are red lights potentially flashing, then our ability to stay safe as a nation is compromised. So you're absolutely right. Moves of this nature will not make us safer or healthier.

[Ali Velchean]

So you see the flashing red lights on the dashboard. This is an important point that people may not understand. The CDC does a lot of things. When there's a disease outbreak, they'll collect the data on it. It's surveillance and it is gold standard surveillance. Right. There are a lot of countries in the world would die for our infrastructure. In figuring out that there's an outbreak before, you can't. Independent hospitals can't figure out there's an outbreak. Independent doctors can't figure out there's an outbreak. But five doctors across the country reported to the CDC that people have come in with a particular set of symptoms, and all of a sudden it's the CDC that's able to say, hey, we've got the first outbreak of such and such, and let's deploy resources to stop this now.

[Dr. Nirav Shah]

That's exactly right. Indeed, there are countries in the world where people do die because they don't have the exact systems that are working in the background to scan for threats of this nature. One case does not an outbreak make but numerous cases do. But someone has to be there putting all of those pieces of the puzzle together. And that is what CDC does 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Whether it's a measles outbreak that is apparently unconnected at first, but only later seem to be cohesive, or more recently, things like foodborne outbreaks or safe baby food to make sure that the food that we're feeding kids doesn't have contaminants in it. It's the CDC that's constantly looking for patterns of, hey, are there a bunch of people showing up at an emergency room in the Southwest with strange yet common symptoms that they all have in common? Should we do something about that? When those systems get compromised and the leaders walk out, we are that much less safe as a country. And it's not just the detection, it's also then the response. Whether it's here in the United States or in other countries around the globe, the CDC is the first phone call when something looks different, when something looks awry. And in my time at the cdc, I received numerous phone calls from health officials in the US and ministers of health around the world who said, hey, something doesn't look right in this test. We just got back. Can we help? Can we get your help?

[Martin O'Malley]

Yeah.

[Dr. Nirav Shah]

And when you don't have leaders who are answering those phone calls, well, the real question is, who do those callers go to? If it's a minister of health of another country and they call the CDC but no one's there to pick up the phone, unfortunately, they may call one of our adversaries next. We may be that much further behind.

[Ali Velchean]

And there are countries. I remember when Ebola broke out. There are countries where these things happen, where their health care spending per capita is very, very low. It basically only manages primary health care. There's no budget for advanced surveillance, detection and response, where again, the CDC gets involved. Because you can pick up that phone and you can call the CDC and you can say, hey, maybe they'll help us, maybe they won't, but they're probably not politicized.

[Dr. Nirav Shah]

Well, we're definitely not politicized. And we always answer that call. And so that helps not just keep those countries safe, keeps us safe, keep Americans safe as well. But, you know, frankly, we don't even have to look to those other countries for examples of where in recent history under rfk, no one is picking up that phone call. Just this week, there was. There was a deep dive analysis into the ways that the measles outbreak in West Texas went largely unanswered because there was no one to pick up that call. Earlier this year, the city of Milwaukee was dealing with childhood lead poisoning. And yet when they reached out to CDC for assistance, they couldn't get a response back. And on the ground, support these things start with leadership. And so when the leaders of CDC are dismissed or decide that they can't do their job in a manner that's ethical, then we are all less safe and healthy.

[Ali Velchean]

Right? And measles was eradicated. I mean, there is no reasons for us, there's just no reason in 2025 for there to be a measles outbreak in the United States.

[Dr. Nirav Shah]

Much of what is coming our way as a result of the dereliction that's underway at our HHS right now is, is manmade and would have been preventable. I mean, the fact of the matter is in public health, what's predictable is preventable. And so we see where this is going. We had an opportunity to prevent much of this. I fear that we have squandered that opportunity.

[Ali Velchean]

Nirav, thanks for your warning. Thanks for being with us tonight. Dr. Nirav Shah is a former principal deputy director of the cdc. All right, coming up, another government official being targeted by Donald Trump. The Federal Reserve governor, Lisa Cook. She's accusing the president of, quote, a blatant grab for power in defiance of the nation's laws. We're going to discuss the lawsuit that her attorneys have filed against the Trump administration with Andrew Weissman and Gene Sperling. That's next. Tonight, a stunning escalation between the White House and the nation's central bank that could have major consequences for both the independence of the Federal Reserve and and for the entire American economy. The Federal Reserve governor, Lisa Cook is suing President Trump over his attempt to fire her via social media. Trump has accused Cook, who is an economist and the first black woman to serve on the Federal Reserve Board of unsubstantiated claims regarding mortgages for which she had applied. The lawsuit calls Cook's dismissal unprecedented and illegal and is asking for an emergency temporary restraining order that would keep her on the Fed's Board of Governors until this case is decided. The lawsuit says, quote, the president's effort to terminate a Senate confirmed Federal Reserve Board member is a broadside attack on a century old independence of the Federal Reserve System, as one editorial describes it, represents a blatant grab for power in defiance of the nation's laws. And if it succeeds, it will be to the detriment of the nation's interests, end quote. To be Clear. Lisa Cook has not resigned. We do not know if she's reporting to work. The Federal Reserve isn't commenting, which is typical for the Federal Reserve. A federal judge has scheduled a hearing for Tomorrow morning at 10am joining us now is Andrew Weissman, former FBI general counsel and MSNBC legal analyst, and Gene Sperling, former director of National Economic the National Economic Council under Presidents Bill Clinton and Barack Obama. Guys, it's good to see you back because there's so much to discuss about this. And in a moment, Andrew, I want to get to the legality because there are things about the Federal Reserve that even the Supreme Court has determined are unusual. So I want to ask you about that in a second. But Gene, I want to start with you because I think to a lot of people, the Federal Reserve is an abstraction that doesn't matter to their daily lives. But the model designed in America about an independent central bank that doesn't work on presidential terms, that's not doesn't fall to the whims of the president or the executive, is one that has been followed by almost every major country around the world. They all use the same model. They do not want the chief executive, the president or the prime minister involved in decisions like interest rates and monetary policy. Why?

[Gene Sperling]

Well, actually, what really happened is that the rest of the world had followed what had been a stellar example in the United States, where we moved to clear independence in 1951, and people saw an act, economists studied, that this was an issue that led to lower interest rates, lower inflation and stronger economies. And so the world started moving in our direction. And you know, as I said before, in some ways, this is not that complicated. If you think like right now, the Federal Reserve has a dual mandate. They are supposed to focus on full employment, but also on keeping inflation low and constrained. What you don't want is a situation where the Federal Reserve is basically an instrument of the president or his political advisers. Because what's happened in country after country is that when that happens, when they think their politics are hurting, just like with President Trump now, when they think this might be bad for elections coming up, just like President Trump now, they tell the Federal Reserve, ignore inflation and just lower the rates, the economy, lower inflation. You know, Argentina, which could have been a great economic power, has had several cycles of this that have led to hyperinflation. We were always seen as the polar opposite, the country with the absolutely firm full faith and credit, the safe haven in a storm. But what's really striking people have mentioned this is the guy president seems to like and admire Erdogan, the president, the head of Turkey, same problem.

[Ali Velchean]

Hyperinflation can't control the economy.

[Gene Sperling]

Well, I mean, but this was really someone taking where there was independence in the Federal reserve and in 2018, saying, no, I'm going to fire people and I'm going to keep firing their equivalents of Jerome Powell. I mean, Ali, the inflation got to between 85 and 88%. It is still only 33 to 35% now. And they had to come in and raise rates, rates to 46%. How many times do we have to see this?

[Ali Velchean]

And I know that's the obvious part for my viewer to say that's where this could go. If you start having a fed that does not operate free of politics and operates on political whims, this could actually cost you real money. Now, Andrew, here's the other problem. The Supreme Court has recognized that of these agencies, of these independent agencies, quasi independent agencies that are not part of the executive, the Supreme Court, they have deemed to be something unusual in that while Donald Trump can seem to fire other independent agency appointees, there seems to be something different about the Supreme Court that the, that the Supreme Court has found about the Fed.

[Andrew Weissman]

Yeah. So the supreme. The Supreme Court has said that with respect to the Federal Reserve, you have to obey the congressional statute that says that if you want to fire, if the president wants to take that action, it has to be for cause. I can relate this to when I was the general counsel of the FBI. There are about 35,000 or so people. If we wanted to take action against somebody, we had to do something, which you would expect we had to do. We had to tell them what the reason was. They had an opportunity to understand what it is that our allegations were. We had to substantiate what we said. They had an opportunity to be heard, and only after that could we take an action, because they were entitled to what is commonly known as due process. And that's what it means to be for cause. And the Supreme Court has rejected the idea that, at least with respect to the Federal Reserve, that the president can just fire people with no cause. And so the issue for the judge, I think, is relatively clear here, because one thing that is, I think, very, very strik wrong in her complaint is that she was given no notice, no opportunity to confront the allegations, no hearing at all. Now, maybe the government can prove its allegations. They seem quite fanciful to me in the sense that they don't seem particularly material. It doesn't seem to be the real good faith reason for why they're taking this action. But in any event, the one thing that seems clear is that she was not given the due process that people in civil service are routinely given. And so I expect the judge to really be focusing on that issue.

[Ali Velchean]

So Bill Pulte, the head of the Federal Housing Financial Authority, a guy who's trying very hard to get into Donald Trump's good books, has posted this tweet in which Jean, he talks about all the things she supposedly has done with her mortgages. But again, they were trying to get rid of Jerome Powell because he wasn't lowering interest rates. Then they said he mismanaged and perhaps was fraudulent about the renovations at the Fed. So this is the thing, you talked about turkey a little while ago. This is the thing that kind of happens in some of these places, right? If it's not one thing, it's another. Eventually they get to your traffic tickets.

[Gene Sperling]

This is, you know, as Andrew is saying, this is as clear a pretext as you could ever see. The lack of due process is part of the fact that nobody, nobody thinks this is why they're going after Lisa Cook. I mean, they, on social media, Pulte had also declared that he thought, I don't know how he would think that, that there was fraud in the construction of the Federal Reserve building. So what's really happening and why, I can't tell you how important this is. If this case goes bad, we are on a dark road to losing Fed independence. And I'll tell you why. One, if all somebody has to do is pick out political enemies, whether you're Adam Schiff or Lisa Cook, and make an accusation on social media, and that is for cause, then, then there, then for cause becomes meaningless. And there's one additional point I want to make. When you look at how for cause is normally looked at, it is neglect of duty, like neglect of duty in office, malfeasance in office, and then it's inefficiencies, which is seen as being wasteful or self dealing in office. They did not look at Lisa Cook and say there's something she did wrong. They just went out and looked at her whole life and said, is there something we can make an unsubstantiated accusation of? If you can do that, then they can fire anybody. And they could put a majority of federal board members who then would have the power to say that they have reasons to, to fire the federal regional president.

[Ali Velchean]

Right.

[Gene Sperling]

And I know that might seem boring, but there's 12 people who vote. So if the seven, if Trump can put in a majority of the seven and then they can start.

[Ali Velchean]

You then have de facto control.

[Gene Sperling]

Then, yes, you could find yourself in 2026 with the independence of the Federal Reserve being as hurt as it was in Turkey. And this is one time we really have to rely on our courts to constrain this illegal behavior.

[Ali Velchean]

Guys, I appreciate it. It's good to have you both back again. Andrew Weissman and Gene Sperling, thanks for your time tonight. All right, coming up, when it comes to protecting your personal data, in the past you had to worry about hackers and cyber thieves. But our next guest says Donald Trump's government is behind, quote, the greatest theft of personal data in US History. That's next.

[Host/Announcer]

I'm now switching my team to some fancy work platform that somehow knows exactly, exactly how we work. And its AI features are literally saving us hours every day. We're big fans. And just like that, teams all around the world are falling for Monday.com with intuitive design, seamless AI capabilities and custom workflows, it's the work platform your team will instantly click with. Head to Monday.com, the first work platform you'll love to use.

[Mint Mobile Advertiser]

Mint is still $15 a month for premium wireless. And if you haven't made the switch yet, here are 15 reasons why you should. One, it's $15 a month. Two, seriously, it's $15 a month. Three, no big contracts. Four, I use it. Five, my mom uses it. Are you, are you playing me off? That's what's happening, right? Okay, give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront.

[Host/Announcer]

Payment of $45 for 3 month plan, $15 per month equivalent required. New customer offer first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra.

[Gene Sperling]

Cmintmobile.com Saturday, October 11th from New York City, it's MSNBC Live 25. Join your favorite MSNBC hosts, Rachel Maddow, Joe Scarborough, Mika Brzezinski, Nicole Wallace, Ari Melber, Alicia Menendez, Simone Sanders Townsend, Michael Steele, Chris Haynes, jen Psaki, Lawrence O', Donnell, Stephanie Rule and more. Visit msnbc.comlive25 to buy your tickets. Today.

[Ali Velchean]

The greatest theft of personal data in US History. That's how our next guest is describing the extent to which Donald Trump and Elon Musk's so called Department of Government efficiency have recklessly compromised the data of millions of Americans. A new whistleblower complaint filed by Social Security Administration Chief Data Officer Charles Borges alleges that DOGE workers violated the law in copying the Social Security data of more than 300 million Americans to an unsecured cloud system which only they control. That, quote, apparently lacks any security oversight from the Social Security Administration or tracking to determine who's accessing or has accessed the copy of this data. These actions constitute violations of laws, rules and regulations, abuse of authority, gross mismanagement and creation of substantial and specific threat to public safety and health. The Numerical Identification System database contains the name, place and date of birth, citizenship, race and ethnicity, and parents names of all individuals who've been issued a Social Security number. The complaint lays out the consequences this way. Quote, should bad actors gain access to this cloud environment, Americans may be susceptible to widespread identity theft, may lose vital health care and food benefits, and the government may be responsible for reissuing every American new Social Security numbers at great cost. Joining us now, Martin o' Malley served as the commissioner of the Social Security Administration under President Biden. He was also the governor of Maryland. Good to see you again. Thank you for being with us tonight. I think we need to talk about outside of the abstract, the very specific risks and things that we can do about this. What in your opinion is the most dangerous part of this?

[Martin O'Malley]

Ali, there. There are so many things. I mean, if there is going to be any sort of action like this, and this is the largest one that the agency's ever been forced to do. I mean, I do believe that this is the greatest taking of personal identifying data in US History, greatest theft, pirating away, whatever you want to call it. In any sort of access to the personal identifying data of Americans, there is always required risk assessments to be done in an excruciatingly detailed way. Risk assessments on the cybersecurity risk, risk assessments on privacy risk, risk assessments on the fraud risk. None of that appears to be done in this case. And it's not a core. According to some low level employee at Social Security. It is, according to the chief data officer of the largest domestic program in the United States of America, a naval veteran, decorated, who is on several tours of duty protecting the information of Americans in other departments. So this is stunning. This has never been done before. And Ali, what is the reason? I mean, every night, what is the reason the same data is backed up in Charlotte and in Colorado Springs.

[Ali Velchean]

Yeah, nobody needed an extra copy of this. Nobody needed an extra copy of this. I want to read a little bit from the complaint. According to the New York Times, they say the complaint includes documents that showing DOGE leaders sought to upload the data despite warnings that they could be exposing Americans personal information. Quote, I have determined the Business need is higher than the security risk associated with the implementation. And I accept all risks. End quote, wrote Aram Mogadhesi, who worked at two of Mr. Musk's companies, X and Neuralink, before becoming Social Security's Chief Information officer, in a July 15 memo. So this random person, Aram Mogadesi, Elon Musk employee, has said, I have determined the business need. The business need is greater than the security risk associated with the implementation. I accept all risks. Well, first of all, I hope if there's a lawsuit, somebody finds him because he said he's accepted all risks. What business need overcomes the risk? Need of not giving my information out or not losing my information?

[Martin O'Malley]

Yeah, hard to determine. I mean, it would be nice if he could accept the risk. But, Ali, he's not the one accepting the risk. He's putting the risk on the American people that in this largest pirating away of our personal data that all of us are susceptible. And people warned him that this could mean that everybody has to be issued a new Social Security number. And this could be the largest class action in American history under the.

[Ali Velchean]

Let's talk about that, because there's, as you said on the Privacy act, right. 1974, it allows citizens and permanent residents to sue the federal government agencies for unauthorized disclosure of personal data held in a system of records if a court finds the violation was willful or intentional. This guy did say, it's okay. I'm cool with the risks. The victim can get actual damages or a minimum of $1,000 plus legal costs. Now, you multiply that by $300,000, that's a hell of a class action lawsuit.

[Martin O'Malley]

Oh, yeah. 340 million people times 1,000. And look, the key conjunctive, there is or it's not actual damages, it's if it's been done willingly and if it's been revealed to other people. I mean, they have put our data in some cloud database that only they control. And there is no way, Ali, that that amount of data went there without other people on the receiving end being a part of the orchestration. And therefore, they revealed our data to people outside of. Outside of the Social Security Administration. I mean, if this were. This is almost like a bar exam question where you're asked to identify every statute that these doge Bros. Violated. Yeah, I mean, it's the Inspector General Act. It's the. It's fisma. The Federal Information Modernization Security Act. It's the Privacy Act. It's actually the Social Security act, which, by the way, in their very first regulation that then they had a board that passed was to protect the private information of Americans. This is appalling. And members of Congress should be outraged. And I hope attorneys are putting together a class action against this guy who made all of us very vulnerable.

[Ali Velchean]

I appreciate that he was so open about the fact that, hey, I'm good with this. We're good. We're gonna. We're gonna put your information on a cloud, and it's not worth it. I would like to know an answer in court.

[Martin O'Malley]

Don't be afraid to break things.

[Ali Velchean]

I would like an answer in court from him as to what the business advantage was of this. Who got the business advantage of this? Martin, good to see you, as always. Thank you for being with us. Former Social Security Administrator and Governor of Maryland, Martin o'. Malley.

[Gene Sperling]

Imagine relying on a dozen different software programs to run your business, none of.

[Ali Velchean]

Which are connected, and each one more expensive and more complicated than the last.

[Gene Sperling]

It can be pretty stressful. Now imagine Odoo. Odoo has all the programs you'll ever need and are all connected on one platform. Doesn't Odoo sound amazing? Let Odoo harmonize your business with simple, efficient software. Software that can handle everything for a fraction of the price. Sign up today at odoo.

[Ali Velchean]

Com.

[Gene Sperling]

That's O D O O Com.