← The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell
The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell
Trump says he’s removing Federal Reserve Gov. Lisa Cook
00:38:36
Tonight on The Last Word: Donald Trump threatens to send troops to more Democratic-led cities. Also, a federal judge blocks the Justice Department from deporting Kilmar Abrego Garcia. And the House Oversight Committee issues a subpoena for the Epstein birthday book. Radley Balko, Jason Stanley, Gene Sperling, Andrew Weissmann, Garrett Gaff, and Rep. Robert Garcia join Ali Velshi.
Loading summary
Transcript49 lines
- [00:00]
MSNBC Announcer
Saturday, October 11th from New York City, it's MSNBC Live 25. Join your favorite MSNBC hosts Rachel Maddow, Joe Scarborough, Mika Brzezinski, Nicole Wallace, Ari Melber, Alicia Menendez, Simone Sanders Townsend, Michael Steele, Chris Haynes, jen Psaki, Lawrence O', Donnell, Stephanie Ruhl and more. Visit msnbc.comlive25 to buy your tickets today. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts for early access, ad free listening and bonus content to all of MSNBC's original podcasts, including the chart topping series the Best People with Nicole Wallace, why Is this Happening? Main justice and more. Plus new episodes of all your favorite MSNBC shows ad free and ad free listening to all of Rachel Maddow's original series, Ultra Bagman and Deja News. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts.
- [01:01]
MSNBC Host
Well, Donald Trump is continuing his assault on American cities. First, he deployed the National Guard to the streets of Los Angeles, which city officials did not want nor ask for. Then came Washington, D.C. again, unprovoked. Tonight, National Guard troops are carrying sidearms M17 pistols to patrol our nation's capital, Chicago, now the third city, all led by Democrats bracing for a federal troop presence after Donald Trump escalated his threat to deploy the military to crack down on crime. Donald Trump's assault on American cities has nothing to do with violent crime, which is generally down across the country, but down more in some of these cities than in a whole bunch of other cities. Donald Trump is exaggerating the amount of crime in these cities in the same way that he exaggerated the role that undocumented immigrants play in committing crimes. I think we all know this. But undocumented immigrants commit crimes at a much lower rate than either native born Americans or or naturalized citizens and legal residents, in large part because the consequences of committing a felony when you're an undocumented immigrant could be deportation. They all know that. But if there is crime in our cities, it should be addressed. If you're the victim of crime, you don't want to hear a bunch of ivory tower politicians carrying on about how it's not that bad. It's just that this isn't the way to fix the problem of actual crime. This has everything to do with intimidation and Donald Trump's desire for martial law. It's the soft underbelly of authoritarianism. This is what Donald Trump said in the Oval Office this morning. I made the statement that next should be Chicago, because as you all know, Chicago is a killing field right now and they don't acknowledge it. And they say we don't need him. Freedom. Freedom. He's a dictator. He's a dictator. A lot of people are saying maybe we like a dictator. Donald Trump's not only lying about Chicago being a, quote, killing field right now. Chicago actually has seen about a 33% decrease in homicides in the first half of this year. But he's really wrong about his claim that a lot of people are saying maybe we'd like a dictator. According to a recent poll, Donald Trump's disapproval rating has hit a new high. 56% of Americans disapprove of Trump's job performance. 40% approve. Who are all these people, these Americans who say, maybe we'd like a dictator? Since the start of his second term, Donald Trump has wasted no time trying to make his dictatorial dreams a reality. Donald Trump said he could send troops anywhere on less than 24 hours notice. And then he said this.
- [03:29]
Gene Sperling
We may wait. We may or may not.
- [03:31]
MSNBC Host
We may just go in and do it. Today, Illinois Governor J.B. pritzker sent Donald Trump a warning after that threat.
- [03:39]
Illinois Governor J.B. Pritzker
This is not about fighting crime. This is about Donald Trump searching for any justification to deploy the military in a blue city, in a blue state to try and intimidate his political rivals. This is about the President of the United States and his complicit lackey, Stephen Miller, searching for ways to lay the groundwork to circumvent our democracy, militarize our cities, and end elections. In case there was any doubt as to the motivation behind Trump's military occupations, take note. 13 of the top 20 cities in homicide rate have Republican governors. None of these Cities is Chicago. Eight of the top 10 states with the highest homicide rates are led by Republicans. None of those states is Illinois. Memphis, Tennessee, Hattiesburg, Mississippi have higher crime rates than Chicago. And yet Donald Trump is sending troops here and not there. Ask yourself why. This is not a time to fall back into the reflexive crouch that I so often see, where the authoritarian creep by this administration is ignored in favor of some horse race piece on the who will be helped politically by the President's actions. Donald Trump wants to use the military to occupy a US City, punish his dissidents and score political points. If this were happening in any other country, we would have no trouble calling it what it is, a dangerous power grab.
- [05:21]
MSNBC Host
It isn't just Democratic governors or mayors or local lawmakers who are echoing that sentiment. Here's what Donald Trump's former chief of staff, the retired U.S. marine Corps general John Kelly, said about Donald Trump last year.
- [05:33]
Andrew Weissman
Well, I'm Looking at the definition of fascism, it's a far right authoritarian, ultra nationalist political ideology and movement characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized hypocrisy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy. But certainly the former president is in the far right area. Certainly an authoritarian admires people who are dictators. He has said that. So he certainly falls into the, into the general definition of fascist.
- [06:18]
MSNBC Host
For sure, Trump is normalizing armed troops in American neighborhoods. And you may not live in Washington, D.C. or Los Angeles or Chicago or care, but for everyone else not living in these cities, this is a flashing light of fascism being accepted and normalized, and it could be coming to your streets next. Joining us now, Radley Balco, investigative journalist and author of the Rise of the Warrior Cop Militarization of America's Police Forces. He's also the author of the substack newsletter the Watch. Also with us, Jason Stanley, professor at the Munk School of Global affairs and Public Policy at the University of Toronto. He's the author of Erasing How Fascists Rewrite the Past to Control the Future. Good morning. Good evening to both of you guys. Thanks. I say good morning to you because last time I talked to you in the morning, we had an important conversation about this idea when it was happening in D.C. jason, I want to start with you. You know, when people use the expression crossing the Rubicon, it's the idea that the leader cannot come into Rome. Caesar could not come into Rome at the head of the army. The army is not for the things that need to be done in Rome. The policing of the Roman citizen. We've done this now three times. We have crossed the Rubicon literally three times. And Donald Trump is relying on the fact that this becomes normal.
- [07:32]
Jason Stanley
Yeah. Donald Trump's chief thinks that the chief enemy of America are his political opponents. And he's behaving appropriately. This is a kind of situation that we are familiar with from history. You declare a fake emergency and you, you declare martial law so there isn't this emergency. He's relying on a background stereotype, that racist stereotype, that cities with large black populations with black politicians who are powerful in those cities are crime ridden. And he's using that stereotype to go after cities that are controlled by the political opposition. And then he's going to start incarcerating political opponents. And he's sending a warning about the coming midterm elections. He's saying, I think he's going to steal these elections and he's going to have a force there to prevent and suppress civil dissent.
- [08:35]
MSNBC Host
Bradley, there's something artistic about it on Donald Trump's part because you can't be that guy who's on the other side of this conversation saying, well, crime's not that bad. Right. Crime is down, violent crime is down across most of America, particularly in Washington and Chicago. But there's still crime. And if you're a victim of crime, you don't want to hear any excuses about it. So, so Donald Trump is depending on the fact that he's. That politicians are going to have to position themselves at saying, we got this under control. How do you, how do you see this, this unfolding?
- [09:10]
Radley Balko
Not, not in a good way. Look, I mean, I think the response to that is just that this isn't going to fix crime. This isn't a short term solution. This isn't a long term solution. This is an undemocratic authority, authoritarian attempt at a. Now, Trump said today that, falsely, that now that he's deployed the national guard in D.C. d.C. Has a lower crime rate than Seoul, South Korea. But you know what city has almost zero crime, at least officially? Pyongyang. Right, Right. You can, you know, virtually eliminate crime if you want to turn the country into a police state, this is not going to solve the problem. D.C. has had a higher crime rate in other cities for a long time. There are lots of different reasons for that. But, you know, it was during, during Trump's first term, D.C. also had a higher crime rate than most cities. Why did he deploy the National Guard then?
- [10:01]
MSNBC Host
Jason, let's talk about this. This mix up here that's going on. There's the, there's the policing, the idea that he's going in to solve crime. Then there's the fact that he keeps mentioning that ICE is involved in this. Those are two different issues. Right? Ice, immigration enforcement, people overstaying their deportation orders or not doing what. It's a different department than fighting street crime in D.C. or Chicago. But in Donald Trump's world, he's combined the two. He's treated the National Guard in many cases as an extension of his police force because he's getting friendly states, Republican states, governors to send National Guard troops into places like D.C. it's all becoming muddled in this idea that Donald Trump's police do what Donald Trump's political will is.
- [10:50]
Jason Stanley
Yeah, I mean, it's all very clear. It's what Hitler did with the storm up Thailand. Basically. You create a military force directed against your political opponents and minorities that you don't like and foreigners, and you Create the political force by giving government uniforms to your street goons and ideologues. So what we have is an assay, a sturm upteilung that's being created and they're going to crack heads for Donald Trump. And you know, I have two chapters in my 2018 book, How Fascism Works. One is called Law and Order and the other is called Sodom and Gomorrah. So Sodom and Gomorrah, rural urban divide. You paint the cities as dens of iniquity and crime and then you represent yourself. Usually the fascist leader is himself an enormous lawbreaker. And you, you say, well, you know, who violates law and order? Anyone who doesn't support me. And so that's what we're seeing today. Political protests, civil dissent, all of that. That's the real target here.
- [12:02]
MSNBC Host
What's interesting, Radley, is that Donald Trump did come up against the governor of California when sending Trump troops into LA, D.C. is easier because there isn't a governor to deal with it. But here's what, Let me just play what a little more about what J.B. pritzker, the governor of Illinois, said in response to Donald's threat to send troops into Chicago.
- [12:24]
Illinois Governor J.B. Pritzker
Mr. President, do not come to Chicago. You are neither wanted here nor needed here. Your remarks about this effort over the last several weeks have betrayed a continuing slip in your mental faculties and are not fit for the auspicious office that you occupy.
- [12:50]
MSNBC Host
I'm intrigued, Radley, that Pritzker and Newsom, they're fighting back. They are telling Trump, you're not going to be able to get away with this stuff without some political, without paying some political price. Is it working?
- [13:06]
Radley Balko
I don't know. I guess we'll see. I mean, I think Pritzker, you know, was giving, giving us, those of us who are worried about what's happening in this country, some life today. I mean, it was, that's probably the most fight I think we've seen from a high profile Democrat so far. But I mean, I want to touch on something Jason said. I mean, literally what's happening in this country, you know, six, as you, as you reported, six red state governors are now sending national guard troops into D.C. they've also volunteered them to send them into places like Chicago and Oakland and Baltimore. You literally have the ruling party sending military, the military into cities to occupy cities that are controlled by the opposition party. I mean, if this were happening in any other country in the world, the State Department would be issuing warnings. You know, the president would be condemning the actions of that other country's ruling party. I mean, if this is not authoritarianism, if this is not sort of the first steps toward a police state, I don't know what is. I mean, I don't know what Trump would do different if he was trying to become a dictator.
- [14:11]
MSNBC Host
Yeah. Yeah. And I think this is really important that people don't think about this as a problem that exists in a city in which they don't live. It's not DC's problem. It's not Chicago's problem. It's not LA's problem. This is America's problem. Guys, thanks. Radley Balco and Jason Stanley. I appreciate your time tonight. Coming up, breaking news. Donald Trump tonight claims he is removing the first black woman to sit on the Federal Reserve Board, who also happens to have voted with Federal Reserve Chair Jerome Powell against Donald Trump's wishes on interest rates. That's next. All right, we got breaking news tonight. Donald Trump claims that he has removed Federal Reserve Governor Lisa Cook, an economist and the first black woman to serve on the Federal Reserve Board. In a letter posted on social media, Trump states, pursuant to my Authority under Article 2 of the Constitution of the United States and the Federal Reserve act of 1913, as amended, you are hereby removed from your position on the board of governors of the Federal Reserve, effective immediately, end quote. Donald Trump cites an Aug. 15 criminal referral from the director of the Federal Housing Finance Agency, despite Cook never being charged or convicted of any crime, unlike the president claiming to fire her, which will almost certainly be decided by the courts. Joining us now is Gene Sperling, former director of the National Economic Council under President Bill Clinton and Barack Obama, and Andrew Weissman, former FBI general counsel, MSNBC legal analyst. Andrew, I'm going to get to you in a second about, about the potential legality of it and what, how this process should or probably will work. But, Gene, I want to just ask you about something that Paul Krugman, he was on with Rachel a little while ago, but he wrote something on Substack today which I think is perhaps more important than the legality of all this. He says you should think about the attack on Cook in the same context as mortgage fraud accusations made against California Senator Adam Schiff and New York Attorney General Letitia James. The message here clearly isn't don't commit fraud, nor, despite what some commentators have said, is it all about revenge. Mainly, it's about intimidation. If you get in our way, we'll ruin your life.
- [16:11]
Gene Sperling
I think this is a very dark day for not just the independence of the Federal Reserve but the confidence in the integrity of our economic institutions and the rule of law that is constituted and American exceptionalism since Alexander Hamilton and beyond. The important issues of democracy and fair treatment in due process have benefited generations after generations of American families. With more investment, with lower interest rates, we all know what's going on. The as Andrew will probably discuss, the court said in Trump vs. Wilcox, they they made clear that they were going to exempt the Federal Reserve from taking away their restrictions that people could only be hired for cause. Suddenly out of nowhere we see this incredibly politicized search to find that Jerome Powell isn't a good manager of the construction of a new Federal Reserve building or that somebody he doesn't like on the Federal Reserve suddenly there's an investigation of their mortgage. None of this has the sense of fairness or due process or being, you know, normal behavior. So everybody knows what's going on. I mean when you have an announcement on Aug. 15 by tweet and he fires eight, nine days later. But Ali last thing I'll say before you turn over to Andrew is if I were an advisor for Donald Trump, I would tell him this is bad for you. You have two goals. You'd like to get interest rates lower on mortgage rates and long term investment. You'd like encourage more people to invest here. This is going to hurt both of your goals. If people now think the Federal Reserve is not committed to lower inflation, that they are just committed to whatever the president says right. We're riskier.
- [18:15]
MSNBC Host
And where the where the gold standard.
- [18:17]
Gene Sperling
For interest rates and more higher mortgage rates.
- [18:21]
MSNBC Host
Our system of having an independent central bank is the gold standard for the world. It's the basis on which most central banks work. Andrew putting aside the fact that there may be mortgage fraud, there's generally not mortgage fraud investigative guy by a guy named Ed Martin who sort of dresses like Colombo and searches it out. It's generally not done by tweet by the head of the Federal Housing Authority. But putting that aside for a second, let's go back to what Gene just said about Trump v. Wilcox in May. Reading from the New York Times. President Trump got the Republican appointed majority on the Supreme Court to let him arbitrarily remove Democratic appointed members of other independent agencies, the National Labor Relations Board and the Merit Systems Protection Board before their terms are up. In that decision, the court pointedly said the Federal Reserve was different, noting that Trump's lawyers contend that arguments in this case necessarily implicate the constitutionality of four clause removal protections for members of the Federal Reserve's Board of Governors, the Court stated flatly we disagree, adding that the Fed was a uniquely structured, quasi private entity. Now, for a lot of people for whom the Fed is an abstraction, why is this important?
- [19:29]
Andrew Weissman
Sure. So there are two ways to remove somebody. One is to say, I'm just removing you and you don't give any reason whatsoever. And Gene's point is that the Supreme Court has made it really clear that that's not going to fly when it comes to the Federal Reserve, at least you have to have cause. And cause means a good reason and good faith. That's also what Gene was getting at. It has to be a good faith reason. And I think that's key because here in the letter, that submission that the President has made, he lays out a reason. He does say that he also has a good reason. And it's this alleged mortgage fraud. Now, we don't have any facts that really show that there is mortgage fraud. And to have mortgage fraud, it has to also be not just something that is false, but intentionally so. And so we have to sort of remain to hear what those facts are. But the other part of this is it has to be good faith. And that, I think, is really going to be the key here, whether the courts are going to really hold to that part of what it means to have good cause, that it's being done in good faith. And it's not just a pretense. And that's where I don't think anybody in the real world would say this isn't a pretense.
- [20:55]
MSNBC Host
Let's talk about the real world for a second. Gene Sperling. Interest rates are a function of a few things. One is what the Fed does. One is how much people trust you, how much the world wants to invest in you. The dollar is already lower tonight. And in fact, some argue, and it's an argument for a different time about the, whether whether the dollar should be weaker or stronger. But the times since Donald Trump has been president that the dollar has weakened have all been for the wrong reasons. It's because investors are saying y' all are a little bit risky and unpredictable.
- [21:24]
Gene Sperling
Yeah, exactly. You know, you know, things like the dollar strength, American exceptionalism. Are we the US Being the safe haven in every global storm? You know, those things sound abstract, but you have it just right. When you lend somebody money, you know, and you have some, let's say you have some people that, you know, that want to borrow money, but they're not trustworthy. They break the law at times. They, they're always, you know, on the edge. They always have an excuse, but you have someone else. Where ever since Alexander Hamilton paid back all of our war debts, our credit has been sanct, it's been the gold standard, so to speak. And this has led the dollar to be the world's reserve currency. It's allowed people who are doing 20 year investments in a new factory to say, you know, policy might change in the United States, but I trust that they will keep abiding by the rule of law. And if you are deciding where to put your money around the world, you say in the United States, the Federal Reserve is independent, it has integrity. And they have a dual mandate, not just full employment, but to have moderate containable inflation. And that the President, United States cannot order them to just juice the economy and send us into an inflationary spiral because he thinks it's good for his temporary politics. If you take that away, we are more risky and it is more reasonable for people to say, sorry, if I'm gonna lend you my money anymore, I want a higher rate. And that is what it means to have the end of American economic exceptionalism. And what's strange is it will really hurt in mortgage because long term is when you're going to worry the most. And so if someone's asking you to lend for 10, 20, 30 years, you're definitely going to ask for a higher premium. So, yes, whatever you think. Not great for the dollar, but not great for long term interest rates and not great for trust in investing new jobs and factories in the.
- [23:43]
MSNBC Host
Yeah, it's not as abstract as it all seems. Gene, thanks as always for being here. We appreciate that. Andrew, stay with me. I want to continue a conversation with you. Coming up, Donald Trump's latest wannabe dictator move deporting Kilmar Abrego Garcia was denied by a federal judge today. Every authoritarian attempt Donald Trump makes should be a signal to Americans that the only way to stop this behavior is through resistance. That's next.
- [24:08]
Nicole Wallace
I think that you have to have faith that in the end it'll all be okay. That no matter who wins a presidential election, we will live in a democracy. The First Amendment will govern what journalists can say and do. The Constitution will protect the rights of everybody, if you can agree that most people want those things. Our show is about trying to bend the arc toward that end result deadline.
- [24:30]
MSNBC Announcer
White House with Nicole Wallace Weekdays from 4 to 6pm Eastern on MSNBC. Start your day with the MSNBC daily newsletter. Sharp insights from voices you tr, standout moments from your favorite shows and fresh perspectives from experts shaping the News Sign up now@msnbc.com.
- [24:56]
MSNBC Host
Today a federal judge blocked Donald Trump's Justice Department from trying to redeport Kilmar Abrego Garcia not to his home country of El Salvador, but to the African nation of Uganda, a country he's never been to. It was an attempted workaround, a shortcut to avoid due process or more bluntly, a wannabe dictators move. The Washington Post reports Abrego Garcia's lawyers have asserted that the government is threatening him with removal to Uganda to coerce him into pleading guilty and accepting deportation to Costa Rica, which is a Spanish country speaking country that is regarded as the safest in Central America. Prosecutors on Monday called that claim misleading and dishonest, and they maintained that they undertook their plea negotiations with Abrego in good faith. NBC News reports. During a telephone conference today, Judge Zinnis argued there's been no proffer by Uganda to ensure protections akin to the that Costa Rica has offered the US to ensure Kilmar Abrego Garcia would be allowed to move about, freely be given refugee status and not re deported to El Salvador. Judge Zinnis clarified, Your clients are absolutely forbidden at this juncture to remove Mr. Abrego Garcia from the continental United States. Democratic Congresswoman Jasmine Crockett, who sits on the House Oversight Committee, tweeted this. Deporting Kilmar Abrego Garcia to Uganda makes no sense. It's not his home country. Nothing about this process has been fair. ICE is targeting him with cruelty. This is the weaponization of government, not justice. But Trump keeps testing the limits of the law. And this time, fortunately for Kilmar Abrego Garcia, the law pushed back. But Trump is not stopping here. Today, Donald Trump signed a bunch of executive orders, including one about the American flag. In the Oval Office today, Trump bragged that the executive order makes flag burning punishable by a year in jail. And what the penalty is going to be. If you burn a flag, you get one year in jail. Okay, here's the thing. This is another lie, because an executive order cannot actually create a criminal penalty. That's Congress's job. And the Supreme Court has ruled that flag burning is protected speech. You may not like it, just like you may not like protests on college campuses, but they are both protected expression. Trump is counting on Americans to not know the difference or to not care because flag burners, like student protesters, must be inherently anti American. And when reports point out about the creeping authoritarianism, Trump says things like, they jokingly call me the president of Europe. They call me the president of Europe, which is an honor. I like Europe and I like those people. No one has ever told Donald Trump a joke like that, but he says it anyway. Historian and journalist Garrett Graff, who will join us in a moment, wrote this today. Quote, americans wrongly believe that there would be one clear, unambiguous moment where we go from democracy to authoritarianism. Instead, this is exactly how it a norm blurring here, a norm destroyed there, a presidential dictat unchallenged. Then you wake up one morning and our country is different. Joining us now is the journalist and historian Garrett Graff. He's the author of the Devil Reach Toward the An Oral History of the Making and Unleashing of the Atomic Bomb. Andrew Weissman is back with us as well. Garrett, you and I have had a few chances to discuss this in the last few weeks. In many cases, in the context of your book, particularly where you talk about sort of Germany in the 1930s and how this sort of slow blurring happened. Arguably, we're there. It's not a we're going there. This blurring troops in the streets of D.C. troops going to Chicago, creating laws against flag burning, saying that he's the president of Europe. That's all part of the process.
- [28:40]
Garrett Graff
Absolutely. And I wrote that piece because this month feels different. Like this country feels at a different place this week than it did a week or two ago. And I don't know what the specific moment was when we crossed, but this is not going to be like a light switch turning on and off where sort of everything before here is democracy and everything after here is is authoritarianism. It feels like we are sort of slipping into a different country. And one of the things that really worries me is we have seen this D.C. federal military takeover only escalate, even though there has been sort of no reason for it to escalate. And it makes me worried that there's no one left around Donald Trump to turn the temperature down to tell him otherwise.
- [29:28]
MSNBC Host
And obviously, Andrew, you're here for your legal expertise, and I wanna sort of get some sense of what this pushback on Donald Trump about Abrego Garcia looks like. But I sort of, more importantly, given your history and the time you spent in the pursuit of justice in this country, I want to get your take on what Garrett just said. Something feels different. It feels like we're pushing the norms to the point that people will get used to seeing tanks on the streets of America. And then who knows what happens next?
- [29:58]
Andrew Weissman
Well, the executive order on the militarization of the country is, by all Accounts, at least by my estimation, is something completely different. We have ongoing litigation right now with respect to the militarization of Los Angeles. There is now D.C. and then this. The executive order, to be clear, is not limited to D.C. or Chicago. It is for anywhere in the United States. And here is the problem. If you say it's okay because there's a crime problem, that is a pretense that can be used to go after anybody you want in any state and any locality. That is the issue with saying, oh, there's a crime problem, as you know, was mentioned on your show. You could say the same thing about Singapore and say, well, you know, the way they dealt with that is having a complete militarized government. And so it's. It's this issue of a pretense. And it also is one where the courts are usually not great at dealing with that. So as a legal matter, this could be quite disappointing. I know lots of people are very disappointed with the Supreme Court, but it's hard for the courts to deal with pretextual arguments and get to that issue. And it's really one for voters. And that's the problem here, is that when you've got sort of gerrymandering going on, and what I think a lot of people are worried about is the militarization in advance of the 2026 election as a means of deterring. As somebody said earlier today that they thought this is a sort of reinstitute, reinstitutionalization of Jim Crow. That is the real problem with saying, you know, there's a way out of this through voting, when a lot of this will be targeted at making sure that those votes don't count.
- [32:00]
MSNBC Host
So, interestingly, Gareth Garrett, there are millions of Americans literally with you. Look at the no Kings protests or the people who show up for these rallies with Bernie Sanders and aoc, or the people who go to these town hall meetings that their own congressmen don't go to. You wrote something today. You said national Democrats seem all invisible as the military takes over, policing in the streets of the Capitol and prosperity prosecuting its crimes. This should be a layup to oppose the most basic duty of any congressional figure. And yet House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries and Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer, along with other senior Democrats, have not been a part of any concerted effort to voice opposition to the occupation. Gavin Newsom has. JB Pritzker has. There are lots of random members of Congress who have, and people in state legislatures and millions of Americans, Republicans. It's a Good question. Where is Democratic leadership here?
- [32:53]
Garrett Graff
Yeah, and I think that that's been true this entire year, that we have sort of watched the national Democratic leadership. And I put the governors, as you mentioned, in a different category here. But the national Democratic leadership has just never seemed to rise to the occasion of understanding that sort of friction matters, that anything that they can do to slow things down, they may not have a ton of power in the minority, but they do have the power to introduce friction and make things a little bit harder here and there. And they have by and large, not used those tools. And as Andrew said, I don't think we should count on the possibility that sort of all of this will turn around in 2026. I have never believed that Donald Trump was going to outright cancel the 2026 midterms. You know, every country votes. Vladimir Putin is regularly reelected as the president of Russia, Saddam Hussein regularly reelected.
- [33:50]
MSNBC Host
Iran has elections.
- [33:51]
Garrett Graff
And instead, what they're going to do, and you're seeing it in redistricting and elsewhere, they're going to subtly reshape who is able to vote and where those votes count. And you don't have to think very hard to imagine what military occupations in 15 minority heavy cities across the country with ICE checkpoints set up all across the country on voting day, on election day, how that changes the electorate.
- [34:22]
MSNBC Host
Guys, important discussion. I'm glad you've had it with me tonight. I appreciate it. Garrett, good to see you again. Garrett Graff. And Andrew, thanks for sticking around for us. Coming up, breaking news. Late today, Congress issued a very significant subpoena, Jeffrey Epstein's birthday book that the Wall Street Journal reports included a letter bearing Donald Trump's name. Trump definitely is not going to be happy about this. That's next.
- [34:45]
Nicole Wallace
I think that you have to have faith that in the end it'll all be okay. That no matter who wins a presidential election, we will live in a democracy. The First Amendment will govern what journalists can say and do. The Constitution will protect the rights of everybody, if you can agree that most people want those things. Our show is about trying to bend the arc toward that end result deadline.
- [35:07]
MSNBC Announcer
White House with Nicole Wallace, weekdays from 4 to 6pm Eastern on MSNBC.
- [35:17]
MSNBC Host
The House Oversight Committee issued a subpoena to the estate of convicted sex trafficker Jeffrey Epstein for documents in its possession that could be helpful to its investigation. Among the specific documents the committee is requesting, include, quote, all entries contained within the reported leather bound book compiled by Ms. Ghislaine Maxwell for Mr. Jeffrey Epstein's 50th birthday this is the birthday book that, according to the Wall Street Journal, includes a body letter from Donald Trump to Jeffrey Epstein with a drawing of a naked woman and a message that concludes, happy Birthday and may every day be another wonderful secret. Donald Trump has denied that such a letter exists, but now Congress will get to see exactly what is in that birthday book. After Democratic Congressman Ro Khanna vowed to pursue that subpoena on this program last month. Month. It is a revelation to me that he said that that birthday book is with private lawyers in the Epstein estate. We subpoenaed the Epstein files, but that's a hard thing to do to get the Department of Justice to cooperate in releasing those files. What's not hard to do is to subpoena private attorneys in a private estate and to get compliance. So I'm actually going to invite Bradley Edwards to meet with the House Oversight Committee, and I think we can easily move forward on this subpoena of that birthday book in which could really advance this case. Joining us now is Democratic Congressman Robert Garcia of California. He's the top ranking Democrat on the House Oversight Committee. Congressman, good to see you. Thank you for being with us. No matter what you think about the whole Epstein thing, the, the compounding of what appear to be lies is, is becoming quite, quite interesting. We got the audio and the transcripts of the very strange conversation that was had by the Deputy Attorney General, Todd Blanche, who is Donald Trump's lawyer, and Ghislaine Maxwell. And this issue of this birthday book came up. Can I just play for you a little about what they said about the birthday book and get your take on the other side?
- [37:20]
Gene Sperling
Do you remember asking President Trump to.
- [37:24]
MSNBC Host
Submit a letter for that? I do not. And do you remember, would you have been the one to do that or would somebody else have done that?
- [37:40]
Nicole Wallace
I did ask some people. I don't remember Mr. Trump. I don't remember who I did ask. But Epstein also asked people himself. Directly. So it could have happened that way.
- [37:50]
MSNBC Host
If it happened at all. Unsatisfying, to say the least. Your take on that?
- [37:59]
Congressman Robert Garcia
I mean, first, both Donald Trump and Ghislaine Maxwell are enormous liars, clearly. And this just continues, this massive cover up. First of all, let's be clear. Ghislaine Maxwell is a convicted sex trafficker and abuser of young women and girls, is a known liar, has been convicted of incredible violence and serious crimes. So we shouldn't be believing anything she says. And as far as Donald Trump going out and saying that somehow this note, this book doesn't exist, it clearly does. I mean, we've seen it reported, of course, in the Wall Street Journal and other places. But more importantly, we've been fighting to actually get this book. And we were told, and we told James Comer, both Congressman Khan and myself and others that we were going to subpoena this book. And so I'm glad that oversight is now going to get in possession of this book. I am glad that James Comer finally agreed today to bring Alex Acosta in four to the Oversight Committee. And I think what James Comer and the Republicans finally know is that Democrats on the Oversight Committee, we are not messing around. We are going to force votes just like we forced the Epstein files to get released. We're going to force them to take the votes that they don't want to take. And we're not going to stop until we get justice for all the victims and tell the American people that all we're hearing from them right now are lies and a massive cover up.
- [39:18]
MSNBC Host
Yeah, you mentioned Alex Acosta. He seems central to the operation. Right? It seems that if you could hear from Alex Acosta, you could, you could understand that either there is a cover up or maybe, maybe it's just as bad that rich people get good deals and that's how it goes. But Alex Acosta was central to this thing and was not included on that first list of people subpoenaed.
- [39:41]
Garrett Graff
Right.
- [39:41]
Congressman Robert Garcia
I mean, look, I think what's interesting, of course, is that first list of people subpoenaed was essentially cherry picked by the Republicans folks that we had suggested to add. They weren't interested. They're now only interested in Alex Acosta because we, of course, have been pushing hard on it and we have been recruiting Republicans who've now come out publicly like Representative Luna and said, oh, yes, we should bring Alex Acosta in. And so, so Comer and the Republican leadership understand that we are picking off Republicans to join Democrats in ensuring that we get as much disclosure and transparency as possible. And they know that on that first day back into session, which we're actually nearing here in about a week, we were going to raise hell, force a subpoena vote and ensure that folks came to the committee. And so now they are, of course, today relenting on Alex Acosta. They're relenting on subpoenaing the book. And we're going to continue to push for more disclosure. What matters here is the truth and justice for the victims and we're going to continue to. That is our focus. And that's what the American people want.
- [40:44]
MSNBC Host
Congressman, good to see you as always. Thank you for joining us tonight. Congressman Robert Garcia of California. I'm all out of time. That's tonight's last word.