← The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell
The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell
Trump says no deal, ‘up to Zelenskyy'
00:41:53
Tonight on The Last Word: Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin meet as the fighting continues in Ukraine. Also, the Justice Department rescinds an order to take over the Washington, D.C. police. And Rep. Ro Khanna plans to introduce a bill to repeal tariffs on coffee. Timothy Snyder, Lt. Col. Alexander Vindman (ret.), Amb. Michael McFaul, Ben Rhodes, Lisa Rubin, and Rep. Ro Khanna join Ali Velshi.
Loading summary
Transcript91 lines
- [00:02]
Commercial Narrator
Are you ready to get spicy?
- [00:04]
Ali Velshi
These Doritos Golden Sriracha aren't that spicy.
- [00:08]
Commercial Narrator
Sriracha sounds pretty spicy to me.
- [00:12]
Timothy Snyder
Um, a little spicy, but also tangy and sweet.
- [00:16]
Commercial Narrator
Maybe it's time to turn up the heat.
- [00:19]
Timothy Snyder
Or turn it down.
- [00:20]
Ali Velshi
It's time for something that's not too spicy. Try Doritos Golden Sriracha. Spicy but not too spicy.
- [00:30]
Odoo Advertiser
Imagine relying on a dozen different sauces software programs to run your business, none of which are connected. And each one more expensive and more.
- [00:37]
Ali Velshi
Complicated than the last.
- [00:39]
Odoo Advertiser
It can be pretty stressful. Now imagine Odoo. Odoo has all the programs you'll ever need and they're all connected on one platform. Doesn't Odoo sound amazing? Let Odoo harmonize your business with simple, efficient software that can handle everything for a fraction of the price. Sign up today@odoo.com that's o-o o.com our.
- [01:01]
Ali Velshi
Coverage continues with the last word and Ali Belshi. Hi, Ali. Super different coverage than I think you and I both had planned for this evening. Right. It's important things to cover, but the range of possibilities that I thought coming out of that meeting are much narrower than I. You know, I thought there could be a bad deal, there could be a one sided deal. What I didn't expect was that lunch would be canceled and everybody would be on their way home already. Or a 12 minute press event. You call it a press conference. Right. No questions were taken. He has talked to Sean Hann since and given far more information than any of the world heard at the press conference. I'm gonna have a chat with Timothy Snyder in a few minutes because I want to get his perspective on this sometimes. It's never too soon to sometimes get an historian's perspective on what just happened. Could not agree more. I always love hearing from him. And this was quite a day for the history books in some ways. In some ways it really was. Thank you for your great coverage tonight. Thank you. We'll see you next week. Thank you so much. Okay. Well, Donald Trump said ahead of today's summit that within two minutes of meeting Vladimir Putin, he would know if a deal was possible. He spent five hours with Putin in Alaska today and there's no sign of a deal. Not even in the fantasy land of the Sean Hannity show.
- [02:17]
Donald Trump
A lot of points were agreed on, but there's not that much. There's, you know, one or two pretty significant items, but I think they can be reached now. It's really up to President Zelensky to Get it done. President Putin would like to solve the problem.
- [02:32]
Ali Velshi
President Putin would like to solve the problem. Trump and Putin met for nearly three hours in a bilateral meeting that included the Secretary of State, Marco Rubio, and the special envoy, Steve Witkoff, along with two Putin advisors. Afterward, the American president stood next to the Russian dictator and allowed him, without interruption or interjection, to first of all, kick off the whole thing, which is unusual for a hosting country and to lie about the war in Ukraine, to say it was a both sides conflict and as opposed to a unilateral invasion by Russia of a sovereign country. And then Donald Trump spoke and admitted that he could not get Vladimir Putin to agree to a ceasefire deal.
- [03:09]
Donald Trump
I believe we had a very productive meeting. There were many, many points that we agreed on, most of them I would say a couple of big ones that we haven't quite got there, but we've made some headway. So there's no deal until there's a deal. I will call up NATO in a little while. I will call up the various people that I think are appropriate, and I'll, of course, call up President Zelensky and tell them about today's meeting. It's ultimately up to them.
- [03:40]
Ali Velshi
What remarkable specificity. Ahead of the summit, Ukraine's President Zelensky posted this quote, russia must end the war that it itself started and has been dragging out for years. The killings must stop. A meeting of leaders is needed at the very least. Ukraine, America and the Russian side. And it's precisely in such a format that. That effective decisions are possible. Security guarantees are needed, lasting peace is needed. Everyone knows the key objectives, end quote. On day. He continues, by the way, on the day of the negotiations, the Russians are killing as well. And that speaks volumes. Trump's summit with Putin ended without even a mention of a ceasefire tonight. Three and a half years after Putin invaded Ukraine, 207 days after Trump said that he could end the war on day one of his presidency, Trump rolled out the literal red carpet for Putin and went home with nothing. Here's the image that will be remembered. It says more than anything that either Donald Trump or Vladimir Putin said Vladimir Putin, for whom the International Criminal Court has an arrest warrant for war crimes, smiling out of the bulletproof window of the armored US Presidential limousine. In that car, Donald Trump, Vladimir Putin and the Secret Service. No translators, no staff, no record of what was said. Putin got a great photo for Russian state tv, a photo that shows a veteran KGB agent literally on the inside of a sanctum of American presidential power, smiling the Yale professor and historian Tim Snyder, who will join us in a moment, wrote this today. Trump has threatened serious consequences if Putin does not accept an unconditional ceasefire. Those are words. And thus far, the consequences of Trump's words for Russia have been more words. Trump's bullying also does not work abroad. For Russian leaders, it covers a weak foreign policy. Trump has made extraordinary concessions to Russia in exchange for nothing at all. Russia has repaid him by continuing the war and seeking to win it. Putin knows that Trump wants the Nobel Peace Prize, and so Putin's obvious move is to suggest to Trump that war will end someday and Trump will get the credit if the two of them just keep talking and while Russia keeps bombing. Joining us now, Timothy Snyder, author of the New York Times bestsellers on freedom and on Tyranny. Tim, good to see you. Putting aside the fact that this meeting appeared to achieve nothing, Donald Trump had looked like he had changed his tack. With Vladimir Putin starting to talk tough as recently as yesterday, suggesting there will be sanctions if they don't agree to some kind of a deal. And then, and then. You watched what we watched in Anchorage. Nothing but fawning and admiration for Vladimir Putin, who seemed to be running the show, by the way.
- [06:24]
Timothy Snyder
Yeah, I mean, I just want to take a step back from the two men and just remind us what's going on. There's been, for three and a half years, an illegal war of aggression. Mr. Putin is an indicted war criminal. His armies have destroyed entire cities. They've kidnapped tens of thousands of Ukrainian children for brainwashing and re education. They've killed hundreds of thousands of people. The attacks on civilians are ongoing. This is the great crisis of our time. And knowing that having that as the contrast for these two men going to Alaska in their suits and smiling and taking car rides together, it's a shocking contrast. And what it reveals, coming to your question is, is that what Mr. Trump is thinking about so far, as far as we can tell, is just himself? All you have to do is stand next to him and say nice things about him, and then you get his permission to do whatever you want in the rest of the world.
- [07:22]
Ali Velshi
And to be clear, Vladimir Putin's position has not changed since the first day of the war. There have been no concessions. There's no attempt to do everything, anything, except, as you said, praise Trump and suggest that he might be a peacemaker at some point. Nothing's actually happened on the ground. And every time, Donald Trump takes a strong position vis a vis Russia, Russia then launches a massive attack on Ukraine, which Could be underway now and could be underway tomorrow. That's how they respond to Donald Trump putting pressure. Yeah.
- [07:53]
Timothy Snyder
I mean, as far as we can tell, so far, they have his number completely. So when you say Trump takes a strong position, I mean, what you have in his mind is his occasional rhetorical shifts where he feels pushed to concede that, in fact, Russia has done something in this war. But what Mr. Trump has not done, and this distinguishes him from President Biden, he hasn't made any policy. He hasn't invoked sanctions, secondary sanctions. He hasn't talked about freezing Russian assets. He hasn't talked about increasing aid for Ukraine. On the contrary, he's made huge concessions to Russia. He's. He's tried to take NATO off the table. He doesn't talk about reparations. He doesn't talk about any sort of punishment after the war. He's made these huge concessions. So the Russians believe they have his number. The Russians believe all they have to do is flatter him. The Russians believe they can then make fun of him on television, as they will be doing this evening, and that things will just continue to go their way.
- [08:53]
Ali Velshi
You are not just an historian, but you really understand this region very well, and you're a bit of a specialist on it. Vladimir Putin, interestingly enough, mentioned that US Russian relations are at a low point since the Cold War, as if it has nothing to do with the invasion of Ukraine, and then talks about sort of dealing with the root causes of the issue and suggesting that, you know, it was Russia's security concerns that led to the invasion of Ukraine a couple of years ago. Now, this is not that outside of the ordinary. In fact, Hitler used these same excuses in invading neighboring countries all the way back then. Their own security concerns, extending the umbrella of protection to German speakers in other countries. It's a perversion of history and the truth.
- [09:40]
Timothy Snyder
Well, for Hitler, it was a security problem that Poland existed. It was a security problem that Czechoslovakia existed. And for Putin, it's a security problem that Ukraine exists. When Putin talks about the root causes, what he has in mind is that Ukraine exists, that Ukraine is sovereign, that its people vote for their own leaders. And if we accept that as a root cause of war, what we are doing is inviting back an age of imperialism where anybody has the right to invade anybody else just because they're bigger and they feel like it. And that, of course, is the entire mood which Mr. Putin was trying to establish, with a great deal of success, thanks to Mr. Trump at the summit, that everything that happens in the world is just about great powers who have nuclear weapons, who meet and shake hands and ride together in cars and then do whatever they want. Whereas out in the rest of the world, we have sovereign states and we have nations and we have people who want to live in freedom and, yes, peace, who have defend themselves. When one of these countries says a root cause of war is that you.
- [10:39]
Ali Velshi
Exist, how do you deal with the fact that we came to this conclusion after World War II, that as a world, we would not accept this? It's not just if you're a NATO member. We accept it as a world that states are sovereign and should be free of invasion from other states. The idea that this conversation occurred in Anchorage without any reference to NATO, without any reference to an actual invasion by one country, of another country, not. And with the United States president standing there and not standing up for the basic rule of order that we've decided that we've had in the world since the end of World War II, how do you think about that? How do you process that?
- [11:17]
Timothy Snyder
It's very simple. I mean, I think Mr. Trump sincerely wants to be remembered as a peacemaker, but his refusal to take on board all of the realities about the world, past and present, which have to do with war and peace, makes this impossible. What's happened, on the contrary, is that Mr. Trump has made this war longer and he's made it worse. He was the great hope of Russia, which is a fact he cannot face. He remains, from Russia's point of view, a sustaining and encouraging factor in this war. And that will be the case so long as he continues to do the kinds of things like he just did. Inviting an indicted war criminal inside your military base and your personal limousine is not a signal that you want a war to end. It's a signal and be understood as such that you will like, that you will enable and allow the war to continue.
- [12:10]
Ali Velshi
And yet, though he has not said this to the rest of the press and didn't take questions, he did say to Hannity, it's basically up to Zelensky now. It's in his hands to. We don't know what that means because we don't know what Trump and Putin discussed. But in what world is this up to Zelensky to end this?
- [12:29]
Timothy Snyder
I mean, it's clear that Trump's implicit and sometimes explicit version scenario of how this war ends is that the Ukrainians just give up. That's his scenario. And the Ukrainians can't give up. They didn't want this war. They were invaded. They have to fight because the Russians commit war crimes over all people in all territories that the Russians occupy. They have no choice. If, If Trump wants Ukraine to end it, he has to make Ukraine stronger. He has to give Ukraine the ability to defend itself. That's the way the war comes to an end. And. And that's a basic political reality, which I'm sure many people around Mr. Trump do understand. The only way for Zelensky to end it is not to surrender. That would just mean more war, more atrocity and future wars. The only way Zelensky can end it is if we empower Zelensky. If we're on the side of Zelensky, on the side of Ukrainians, and help them to defend themselves, to change the power position, that's what we can do. So far, we're changing the power position on the side of Russia. We're making it impossible for the Ukrainians to end the war.
- [13:35]
Ali Velshi
Timothy, good to see you as always. Thank you for being with us. Professor Timothy Snyder is the author of On Tyranny and On Freedom. All right, coming up today, Donald Trump stood next to Vladimir Putin. He once again sided with Vladimir Putin over American intelligence officials who know that Russia's interference in our elections with the express help of helping Donald Trump, was not a hoax. Alexander Vindman joins me here. Was the denial heard around the world after American intelligence agencies exposed Russian interference for Donald Trump in the American presidential election? And Donald Trump sided very publicly with Vladimir Putin. Just now, President Putin denied having anything.
- [14:18]
Odoo Advertiser
To do with the election interference.
- [14:19]
Ali Velshi
In 2016. Every US intelligence agency has concluded that Russia did what? Who? My first question for you, sir, is who do you believe? My second question is, would you now, with the whole world watching, tell President Putin, would you denounce what happened in.
- [14:35]
Alexander Vindman
2016 and would you warn him to.
- [14:37]
Ali Velshi
Never do it again?
- [14:38]
Donald Trump
My people came to me. Dan Coats came to me and some others. They said they think it's Russia. I have President Putin. He just said it's not Russia. I have great confidence in my intelligence people, but I will tell you that President Putin was extremely strong and powerful in his denial today.
- [15:02]
Ali Velshi
Strong and powerful in his denial. And today, Trump did it again.
- [15:07]
Donald Trump
I've always had a fantastic relationship with President Putin, with Vladimir. We had many, many tough meetings, good meetings. We were interfered with by the Russia, Russia, Russia hoax. That made it a little bit tougher to deal with, but he understood it. I think he's probably seen things like that during the course of his career. He's seen. He's seen it all. But we had to put up with the Russia, Russia, Russia hoax. He knew it was a hoax, and I knew it was a hoax.
- [15:41]
Ali Velshi
Joining us now is retired Lt. Col. Alexander Vindman. He served as the Director for European affairs at the National Security Council during the first Trump administration. He's the author of the Folly of How the West Deceived Itself About Russia and Betrayed Ukraine. Also joining me, the former Ambassador Michael McFaul, who is here with me in New York. Welcome, gentlemen, to both of you. Colonel Vindman, obviously you know the story very well. I was a little surprised at how central this was to Donald Trump's meeting with Vladimir Putin, in which we got no details of what they discussed about Ukraine and how one might resolve that war. But he needed to get it off his chest about the Russia hoax, with which he still disagrees with American intelligence.
- [16:22]
Alexander Vindman
Sure. Thanks for having me on. Ali and Ambassador McFaul, you've had both a very long day covering this really important story. You know, a lot of this is expected, but nevertheless, having thought through the different scenarios and the outcomes are not entirely surprising, I still started the day with a mixture of apprehension and maybe some naive hope. I think we all were maybe hoping for some sort of positive outcome because this has been a tragic war. And I ended the day with some deep disappointment, not because I was surprised by the outcomes, but mainly because it's striking to see how far the office of the President has fallen, how easily this man could be manipulated and lured into a showpiece by an adversary, one of our principal adversaries, and really come out embarrassed and the standing for the United States. So, you know, it's easy to see that Putin put in front of Trump several different scenarios, whether it's the 2020 election was stolen because of mail in ballots, like he said on Hannity, or, you know, the Russia hoax in 2016, all these types of things. I'm sure he did the same thing with regards to maps and grievances, making the case as to why, you know, Trump should see the world his way. And he just got played so, so easily. And they started the day looking like he was maybe somewhat prepared. The rhetoric on the playing, the audio that we heard seemed to strike a different kind of tone. But when push came to shove, when he showed up across the table from Vladimir Putin, he was just. He was a puppet, he was a plaything. And that's just really, really disappointing to see because there's no progress in the war. It's likely to go on longer. It's likely to escalate like it has over the course of Trump's tenure, and it's a tragedy for Ukraine, Europe and, frankly, the whole world.
- [18:19]
Ali Velshi
Ambassador, this concept of naive hope, which is interesting coming from Colonel Vindman, because this guy, you know, Trump really went at him for his role in this. But the naive hope that we all have is that the President of the United States is one of the few people on earth who could see this war to an end, could end, it could do something meaningful. And so our hope exists because you and I can't end this war. But that guy could, right? And today he demonstrated that he won't.
- [18:47]
Michael McFaul
At least that's what we know so far.
- [18:49]
Ali Velshi
At least that's what we know. We don't know much information.
- [18:50]
Michael McFaul
We don't have any information. So it's hard to speculate, but there's no evidence to suggest that he advanced the ball even incrementally towards peace. And yet you're exactly right. In corresponding with Ukrainians throughout the day, there was still cautious hope that they want the war to end, they want this horrific, barbaric invasion of their country to end. And there was one guy who said he could do it, and he bragged about it. He said he could do it in a day, and then it's going to take longer. And then there was a little tough talk about President Putin a few weeks ago, and everybody thought, oh, maybe he finally understands who he's dealing with. He threatened sanctions if there wasn't a ceasefire today. And then he kept saying that, I'm going to make this happen. And now we're at the end of the day, after all this pomp and circumstance of giving this imperial dictator a ride in the President's car, red carpet literally rolled out, and so far, there's nothing to show for it all.
- [19:47]
Ali Velshi
Colonel, you worked with him. Tell me what happened here, because you both have described a bit of an evolution that looked like he was talking tough. We wondered over the last several weeks, what's happened in that he's taken such a tough time, rhetorical stance against Vladimir Putin. And then you saw none of it today. You saw very unusual things happen today, including the guest leading the press conference, which wasn't really a press conference that didn't take any questions. And then Donald Trump just sort of wallowing in it, like, what happened? Where did Donald Trump go? What changed with him?
- [20:23]
Alexander Vindman
I think he's just not prepared to operate at this level with this kind of adversary. I think the fact is that he's not very good with regards to prep. He was probably prepared about as well as he could be given his. His temperament. But in spite of that, when he faced off against Putin, and this is a feature of the way I think Trump handles himself, when he can. When he can bully, when he could coerce and cajole, he'll do that. When he thinks he could go ahead and, you know, pressure Zelensky in the Oval Office, he'll do that. But when he's faced with, frankly, you know, somebody that's really more of a tough guy, whether it's Putin or Xi, somebody that has a nuclear arsenal, somebody that's going to stand their ground, he turns out to be quite weak. And, you know, it's interesting that Ambassador McFall made that point about Trump giving Putin a ride. I frankly admire the guy that held his ground in the Oval Office and said, I don't need. When the war started, I don't need a ride, I need ammunition.
- [21:30]
Ali Velshi
Yeah, it's a valid point. Ambassador Qual, you've probably helped set up a couple of these kinds of meetings with Vladimir Putin and with the U.S. president. And someone like you would be briefing the president and someone like Colonel Vindman would be briefing the president, because Vindman is the sort who is deep in the weeds on these topics. So, you know, in your case, Obama liked to read and knew details, but even if you don't, there should be enough briefing material that you should be able to make good decisions.
- [21:58]
Alexander Vindman
Correct.
- [21:59]
Ali Velshi
I'm sort of fascinated by this because we're many months into the Trump presidency. He's had a chance to get familiar with the details.
- [22:06]
Alexander Vindman
Yes.
- [22:07]
Ali Velshi
And he didn't. There were no details referred to today at all.
- [22:10]
Michael McFaul
Well, again, maybe something behind closed doors miraculously happened, but we don't have any evidence of it. I think what we do have, the bits and pieces that we heard about is that Putin went into that meeting just like he did in Helsinki, with his own alternative facts, with his own narrative. He convinced President Trump back then that they did not interfere in the 2016 presidential election. That is untrue. There is a mountain of evidence that the president just ignored. And what I fear may have happened today is he went in with his own facts about Ukrainian history and the Russian empire.
- [22:47]
Ali Velshi
Right.
- [22:48]
Michael McFaul
And President Trump, you need to understand, Ukrainians are always been part of the Slavic nation. They're just. They're just Russians with accents. That's the way he talks. I've listened to them. I've heard those arguments before. And we've seen no pushing back. And we didn't see it in the exchange of views. It wasn't a press conference. But I worry that that's what happened today. And President Putin, he does prepare, he knows a lot of facts and he talks for a long time. He can overwhelm you with that kind of narrative, and I worry that that might have happened today. And therefore, when he said, as you were talking about in the earlier segment, that this is now all on Zelensky, that suggests that Trump accepted Putin's narrative and now it's Zelensky who's got to solve the problem. President Trump's no longer going to do it.
- [23:37]
Ali Velshi
So, Colonel Vindman, you were in the room when Donald Trump, Trump made that first phone call to Zelensky after he was newly elected, and it turned into a bit of a shakedown in order to get evidence on Joe Biden. You, of course, reported that that that cost you your job and your career. Talk to me about this business, about it's up to Zelensky to fix this that Donald Trump was talking about.
- [24:04]
Alexander Vindman
I think it's simply Trump at this point throwing his hands up in the air. This is hard. Trump likes easy PR wins, and this turned out to be hard. He put a lot of stake into this summit initially way too much, and then he wheeled it back to kind of moderate the expectations. But I think at this point, he's going to look for other people to maybe salvage the situation and take whatever unreasonable offer Putin probably put in front of Trump and try to see if the Ukrainians are going to somehow kind of embrace it. And that's not going to happen. So I think, if anything, this just extends the cause of war. It certainly delays the potential for US sanctions, including projects that Ambassador McFaul has been working on in great detail to try to coerce Russia back to negotiating. I think that certainly other partners around the world can see how easily Trump gets played. And maybe more importantly, our adversaries can see how easy, especially the stronger, the most dangerous folks can see how easy it is to manipulate. So I think this by itself really probably stops Donald Trump's personal emphasis. The war continues on with little prospects of peace anytime soon, especially with the U.S. you know, providing the minimal support we get now, we give now with regards to intelligence and some pass through of weapons sales directly to Ukraine to Europe.
- [25:38]
Ali Velshi
Well, Ambassador McFaul's naive hope is that because they didn't tell us anything at that press conference, maybe something was said that might be meaningful that we don't know about. But, you know, maybe I'll also have a full head of hair by morning, who knows? Guys, thanks very much. As always, for, for your analysis, Colonel Alexander Vindman and former Ambassador Mike McFaul, who's going to be back with me again in the morning. All right, coming up, another day, another 24 hours where Donald Trump failed to end the war in Ukraine or the war in Gaza for that matter, despite his promises that it'd be easy to do that. Next, we're going to talk with Ben Rhodes. Next.
- [26:11]
Odoo Advertiser
Imagine relying on a dozen different software programs to run your business, none of which are connected and each one more expensive and more complicated than the last. It's can be pretty stressful. Now imagine Odoo. Odoo has all the programs you'll ever need and are all connected on one platform. Doesn't Odoo sound amazing? Let Odoo harmonize your business with simple, efficient software that can handle everything for a fraction of the price. Sign up today@odoo.com that's o-o o.com big.
- [26:43]
Commercial Narrator
Moments or small moments, they all deserve great style. At Maurices, we're here to help you show up feeling your best. No matter what's on your calendar. Whether it's a date night, a special event or just another Tuesday, our over 800 stylists are here to help. From tried and true denim to head turning looks, we've got style that fits your life and your budget. Visit your local Maurices to find fashion fit for you with a little help.
- [27:07]
Ali Velshi
From us at Designer Shoe Warehouse. We believe that shoes are an important.
- [27:11]
Commercial Narrator
Part of, well, everything from first steps to first dates, from all nighters to all time personal bests.
- [27:19]
Ali Velshi
From building pillow forts to building a life.
- [27:22]
Commercial Narrator
For all the big and small moments that make up your whole world, DSW is there and we've got just the shoes. Find a shoe for every you from brands you love at brag worthy prices at your DSW store or dsw.com.
- [27:40]
Donald Trump
Before I even arrive at the Oval Office, I will have the disastrous war between Russia and Ukraine settled. I'll have that done in 24 hours. I'll have it done. You need the power of the presidency to do it. We haven't quite got there, but we've made some headway. So there's no deal until there's a deal.
- [28:00]
Ali Velshi
Wow, that was some change. Donald Trump has the power of the presidency. He was right about that. That's the one thing he's been carrying on about that he's right about. You can use the power of the presidency to end this war. And even after meeting with Vladimir Putin today, Donald Trump still cannot live up to his promise to put an end to the war in Ukraine. Nobody expected it to happen on day one. We're way beyond that. And Donald Trump once again walked away with no deal. Joining us now, Ben Rhodes, who served as the deputy national security adviser to President Obama. He's an MSNBC political analyst. I'm just curious as to your take on this whole thing, Ben. I didn't expect it to be a wild success. I certainly didn't expect it to be what appears to be nothing and Donald Trump apparently getting played.
- [28:43]
Ben Rhodes
Well, I mean, it makes sense if you just look at the world from the perspective of Vladimir Putin. Ali. Because Vladimir Putin doesn't care about what Donald Trump says in terms of setting expectations or Donald Trump's desire for a Nobel Peace Prize. Vladimir Putin has had a single view of Ukraine for a very long time. He's had a single view of this war since the beginning of the Trump presidency is a set of conditions that essentially mean Russia wins the war on its own terms. No NATO, they get to keep all the territory that they've annexed. Ukraine is demilitarized. None of that's changed.
- [29:16]
Ali Velshi
None of it has changed.
- [29:16]
Ben Rhodes
This meeting was just like nothing has ever changed. Let's be clear. Donald Trump in seven months hasn't changed Vladimir Putin's positions by a single inch. And so Putin shows up, he flatters Trump, he says a bunch of things that are cost free for him to say war never would have happened if you were president. And I guess he said you won the last election and there was no hope, hoax or there was no interference in 2016. And that's all Trump needs to hear, to feel like he had a good meeting. He gets to hang out with another autocrat. He gets to be flattered. He gets everybody watching him, a lot of cameras on. And then he gets to do an interview with Fox where he says everything went great. But the reality is there's a war, a real war, a big war happening, a European war happening that is not ending. And this is the difference between Donald Trump's reality, where he can create whatever reality he wants and it's reflected back to him by sycophants or by right wing media, media and actual reality where Vladimir Putin is still fighting a war and has actually escalated a war in Ukraine.
- [30:19]
Ali Velshi
We got precious few facts about what was being discussed in that meeting. But then Donald Trump, before calling NATO and before calling Volodymyr Zelensky, as he mentioned he would do when talking to the media, did go on Hannity and did talk about the election now putting Aside for the moment, how this topic would have come up in the conversation between Zelensky and Putin, here's what Donald Trump said to Hannity. He said, quote, you know, Vladimir Putin said something, one of the most interesting things. He said your election was rigged because you have mail in voting. He said, mail in voting every election. He said, no country has mail in voting. It's impossible to have mail in voting and have honest elections. Put aside for a moment, Just take your smart cap off for a second, because lots of countries have mail in voting and it works. But how could this have been like, is this just, Is this Putin playing Trump? Because if Trump, if Putin said this to me, a dictator who doesn't win legitimate elections told me how to unrig my elections, I'd pretend nobody ever said that to me. And I certainly wouldn't tell anybody in national media that he said that. Yeah.
- [31:17]
Ben Rhodes
It just shows you how much the office of the President of the United States has been completely debased here, Right? Because Donald Trump thinks in terms of news cycles, what's going to get him through the next day, what's going to make him feel good? Vladimir Putin thinks in terms of long stretches of history, hundreds of years stretches of history.
- [31:37]
Alexander Vindman
Right.
- [31:38]
Ben Rhodes
He's got a worldview that he's going to stick to. I think one of the things we're seeing here is that Trump has also dealt with a bunch of people that have just capitulated to him.
- [31:46]
Ali Velshi
Right.
- [31:47]
Ben Rhodes
Whether it's American law firms or whether it's, frankly, some of these other leaders that are afraid of his tariffs. Vladimir Putin is not afraid of Donald Trump. He was kind of smirking. He gets not only the red carpet welcome, he gets to speak first in the United States of America and frame the whole meeting. And then Donald Trump kind of speaks sheepishly for a few minutes next to him. I mean, this was Trump sitting with someone who is not at all intimidated by him, who thinks Vladimir Putin thinks, I was there before Trump, I'll be there after him. And I want to say something too, Ali. Some people are like, well, is what Putin wants out of this, is that Trump is going to come in and be favorable to him. That's actually not what Putin is getting out of this. Putin has wanted to see the United States of America completely humiliated. He's wanted to break the international order. He's wanting to break the relationship between the United States and its allies. That's what he gets from Trump. It's not some gift, it's not sanctions relief. Vladimir Putin can live with sanctions. He's lived with sanctions for a long time now. So Putin is standing there and he's getting what he wants. He's getting the whole world to see the president of the United States is completely out of his depth.
- [32:53]
Ali Velshi
Right.
- [32:53]
Ben Rhodes
And that's ultimately the thing that the reward that Putin gets from this meeting as much as all the rural treatment.
- [33:00]
Ali Velshi
He got, it's a pulling apart of the world order we've been used to since the end of World War II. Ben, good to see you as always. Thank you for joining us. Ben Rhodes is a former deputy national security adviser to President Obama. He's an MSNBC political analyst. Coming up, as Trump was walking off the stage with Vladimir Putin in Anchorage, the Trump DOJ was committing a giant taco. And this one took only 20 hours at an emergency federal court hearing. That's breaking news next.
- [33:26]
Odoo Advertiser
Imagine relying on a dozen different software programs to run your business, none of which are connected, and each one more expensive and more complicated than the last. It can be pretty stressful. Now imagine Odoo. Odoo has all the programs you'll ever need and are all connected on one platform. Doesn't Odoo sound amazing? Let Odoo harmonize your business with simple, efficient software that can handle everything for a fraction of the price. Sign up today@odoo.com that's o-o o dot com.
- [33:57]
Commercial Narrator
Whether it's a date night, a special event, or just another Tuesday, our over 800 stylists are here to help you look and feel your best. We're about personalized style that fits your life, made for real life moments.
- [34:10]
Ali Velshi
Maurices this season, let your shoes do the talking. Designer Shoe warehouse is packed with fresh styles that speak to your whole vibe without saying a word. From cool sneakers that look good with everything to easy sandals you'll want to wear on repeat, DSW has you covered. Find a shoe for everywho from the brands you love like Birkenstock, Nike, Adidas, New Balance and more. Head to your DSW store or visit dswell. As Donald Trump was walking off the stage with Vladimir Putin in Alaska today, a hugely embarrassing Trump taco was taking place in Washington, D.C. trump's attorney general, Pam Bondi, just before 10pm issued an order declaring the Trump DEA administrator, the Metropolitan Police Department emergency commissioner for Washington, D.C. effective immediately. Of course, the attorney General for the District of Columbia immediately sued the Trump DOD. And just after 7:00pm Eastern tonight, the Trump DOJ tacoed and rescinded the Bondi order. Joining us now is MSNBC legal correspondent Lisa Rubin. Lisa, explain to us what, what has gone on here, please.
- [35:21]
Commercial Narrator
Well, Ali, I was saying to one of your producers before our segment began that oftentimes litigation takes months, if not years. Here we have sort of been through the life of a litigation in the span of one very, very long workday. The D.C. attorney General suing this morning based on the attorney general's order that they could federalize the Metropolitan police department in D.C. and use them however the president saw fit, given his designation of an emergency tonight, that order has been rescinded and the DEA administrator is no longer in control of the Metropolitan Police Department. Instead, he is the attorney general's designee in terms of requesting services from the mpd. But while they have backed down on that, the reality is, of course, always in the fine print. And the new order that Attorney General Bondi has issued today shows that there was something here for the Trump administration as well. Specifically, they are going to be able to request the MPD's assistance with all sorts of immigration enforcement, which is what they wanted in the first place. And so both sides are going to walk away tonight feeling like they've had a victory. And I suspect this isn't the last we're going to hear of this in court or outside.
- [36:35]
Ali Velshi
Lisa, thank you. As always. Good to see you. My friend Lisa Rubin is our legal analyst. All right. Coming joining us now is the Democratic Congressman Ro Khanna of California. He's a member of the House Oversight Committee. Congressman, good to see you. Thank you for being with us. First of all, your take on what happened in Anchorage today.
- [36:52]
Ro Khanna
It's sad we've lost our moral leadership. I was thinking Ronald Reagan would be rolling over in his grave. He said to Mr. Gorbachev, Tear down this wall. Did Donald Trump ever say to Mr. Putin, give Ukraine its land back? Did he ever say, stop killing civilians? And we've lost our moral leadership, not just in Ukraine. This administration has lost our moral leadership. On Gaza. Three times the civilians killed in Gaza, as in Ukraine, a man made starvation. And this president is giving a blank check to Netanyahu and he's been giving a blank check to Putin.
- [37:29]
Ali Velshi
Let's just go back to the thing these two things have in common and that they both, Donald Trump suggested that they were both easy to solve and would be solved, not necessarily anybody's satisfaction, but that he could do them both. He's come up against his own inability to do it. He's got Steve Witkoff, a real estate guy, traveling around the world. In fact, Putin mentioned him today that, oh, Mr. Witkoff's been here several times, and I hope he'll be here more times. You know why? Because every time Steve Witkoff shows up somewhere, nobody actually has to do anything. Nothing gets done. There's a lot of shuttle, not that much to blow.
- [38:02]
Ro Khanna
It's not just a failure in results, Ali, Which I agree with you, but it's a failure in understanding moral principle. You know, there's a reason we don't just have real estate guys make deals and just say, everything is a deal. This country stands for human rights. This country stands for the dignity of individuals. This country stands for the idea that you can't just go invade other nations. And what you see in what Trump is doing with Ukraine and what Trump is doing with Gaza is a total abdication. Abdication of those moral principles. It's all transactional for him. It's whoever flatters him the most. And you know what that costs? It costs innocent civilian lives. And it is staining our moral reputation around the world.
- [38:47]
Ali Velshi
And what we saw today in Anchorage was the idea that, certainly in the case of Vladimir Putin. But I suppose this appeals to this idea, works for other people, too. Everybody's got Donald Trump's number. They figured it out. Right. If you flatter him, if you make references to the Nobel Peace Prize, if you talk about the fact, allegedly, that the election was stolen in 2020, it was rigged, you get him to do your bidding, or if your bidding is that you want him to not be involved, you succeed in that.
- [39:15]
Ro Khanna
You're absolutely right. Donald Trump has a superficial strength. It's a strength which is filled with bravado, but ultimately susceptible to flattery, ultimately susceptible to transaction. True American strength are leaders who stood for principle, who stood for human rights, who stood for our values. And that is what we really are losing in this whole presidency. It's all about who gets the best deal. It's all about who flatters Donald Trump. What happened to standing up for American values and our principles?
- [39:48]
Ali Velshi
Yeah. And to the extent that that can still win, Right. If you. If you are representing both American moral values and. And this idea of a world order in which countries don't invade other countries, you could win that. You could assert yourself as the President of the United States. What we watch today on the world stage is Donald Trump basically just not doing that. He basically let Vladimir Putin lead that. I can't. I don't know what word you call. It's not a press conference, because they didn't take any questions, but he let him lead it, and then he, as Colonel Vindman was saying he sort of sheepishly followed with nothing of substance except to say that the Russia stuff was a hoax.
- [40:26]
Ro Khanna
It's a lack of what he said. I don't care. I know if there's all this punditry, who spoke first or what the protocol is. I just don't understand why Donald Trump had the microphone. If he's truly strong, why wouldn't look in Putin's face and say, Mr. Putin, give Ukraine back the land you took. Mr. Putin, stop the killing of civilians. That would be strength. That's what would have America cheering, Democrat or Republican, to see an American president standing up to a world leader and speaking out for moral principle. But this president doesn't have it in him. He didn't run that way. He said, I'm the deal guy. Everything is transactional, and that is what we're really losing in this country. And somehow that winning is everything, deals are everything, and that there is no sense of principle. And you know what? We haven't had a president like that in my lifetime. Every other president, there have been moments where I have stood up and cheered and said, yes, that's what America stands for. And you just don't get that with Donald Trump.
- [41:23]
Ali Velshi
Congressman, stay with us for a moment. Coming up, if Donald Trump's true aim with the Putin summit was to divert attention from the Jeffrey Epstein and high prices, it worked for a couple hours. What about tomorrow? That's next. With nothing meaningful coming out of today's summit in Alaska, people reading the news next week while drinking their morning coffee will likely be seeing more about Jeffrey Epstein in week. The coming cost of living. Two topics that Donald Trump has been desperate to get off people's minds. An Economist YouGov poll out this week shows 59% of Americans disapprove of Donald Trump's handling of the Epstein files, and 58% disapprove of his handling of inflation and prices. The Democratic congressman, Ro Khanna of California is back with us. Yeah, as a distraction technique. If that's what this trip to Alaska was. It's. It's only got the life in it that it's got because we all planned, we thought maybe something would come of it, and we planned to cover it for the evening. Nothing to talk about after tonight, Ali.
- [42:22]
Ro Khanna
The Epstein affair is not going away, I do have to say. You said Americans waking up to drink their coffee. One thing that's not going away is those Americans are going to be paying 20% more because of Trump's irrational tariffs on Brazil, Colombia, Vietnam. So we're going to be talking about repealing those tariffs. A tariff so that the price of coffee declines. But Thomas Massie and I also have a discharge petition which we are going to introduce right. When we get back after Labor Day that will force the release of the Epstein files. We'll have a vote in the House of Representatives. As you remember, Speaker Johnson shut down all of Congress early to avoid this vote. And we're also going to have a press conference on the steps of the Capitol with some of Epstein's victims speaking out for the first time on September 3rd.
- [43:09]
Ali Velshi
Go back to the tariffs for a second. I'll talk about Epstein a minute. Let's go back to the tariffs. Coffee is one of those examples. I mean, the whole thing is a bit stupid, but the coffee one is uniquely stupid, given that, I don't know, about 100% of Americans drink coffee and we produce very little coffee.
- [43:23]
Ro Khanna
We produce less than 1%. It's only produced in Hawaii and Puerto Rico. 99% comes from Brazil, Vietnam, Indonesia. Trump has put 50% tariffs on that. Even Richard Nixon back in 1971 when he had tariffs exempted coffee. The economist Jason Furman pointed this out. It is one of the dumbest tariffs that there is. And I'm working on a bipartisan legislation to repeal it. I mean, we should repeal the coffee tax. We fought a revolution with the Boston Tea Party on the tax on tea. I don't think Americans are going to be happy with a tax on coffee.
- [43:58]
Ali Velshi
But it becomes hard to explain. Right, because there are some things that you put tariffs on because you either want to punish another country country for its behavior or not have them dump or you'd like to nurture that industry in your own country. Coffee doesn't fall into any of those categories.
- [44:12]
Ro Khanna
Absolutely. Just no thought. I mean, look, there's certain rational uses for tariffs and maybe some tariffs could bring back jobs to western Pennsylvania or to a war in Ohio or to parts of the south that had de industrialization. But attacks on coffee, we don't produce 99% of it here. It's simply hurting American consumers. But that's the problem with how has gone about this. There hasn't been a thought of, well, let's use tariffs to protect American industry against dumping around fair trade. They've just had blanket tariffs and the person who's getting hurt is the American consumer. And that's why Donald Trump's numbers have fallen 25% on the issue of inflation from where they were when he won the election.
- [44:56]
Ali Velshi
I was enjoying talking to you and I didn't realize I've run out of time. I've run out of show. So I'm going to have to invite you back to continue our conversations. Always appreciate it when you take time to talk to us. Congressman, Congressman Ro Khanna of California. I'll see you tomorrow on Velshi. You can call the editors of Conde Nast, the original influencers. Before American culture was fractured between podcasts and websites and TV shows and TikTok posts, it came from one place, the glossy pages of Conde Nast's magazine. On Sunday, I'll speak with the New York Times reporter Michael Grinbaum on his brand new book, Empire of the Elite, which chronicles the colorful story of Conde Nast. From Vogue to Vanity Fair, there to the parties, the clothes, the black cars, the drama, the money, so much more. Michael witnessed it all and he's got the stories to prove it. That's tomorrow, starting at 10am and that's tonight's last word.
- [45:39]
Odoo Advertiser
Imagine relying on a dozen different software programs to run your business, none of which are connected, and each one more expensive and more complicated than the last. It can be pretty stressful. Now imagine Odoo. Odoo has all the programs you'll ever need and are all connected on one platform. Doesn't Odoo sound amazing? Let Odoo harmonize your business with simple, efficient software that can handle everything for a fraction of the price. Sign up today@odoo.com that's o-o o dot com.