← The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell
The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell
Trump tries another distraction hours before DOJ is due to release some Epstein files to Congress
00:41:47
Tonight on the Last Word, Democrats move to counter Republican gerrymandering and Trump’s redistricting plot. Plus Black and Hispanic Texas voters are at risk of losing representation as that state advances a gerrymandered congressional map. And Trump sends VP Vance out to sell his increasingly unpopular economic policy and budget bill - that and more with Leah Litman, Rep. Gwen Moore, Jennifer Rubin, Andrew Weissmann and Jason Stanley.
Loading summary
Transcript71 lines
- [00:00]
A
Your new beginning starts now. Dr. Horton has new construction homes available in Ellensburg and throughout the greater Seattle area. With spacious floor plans, flexible living spaces and home technology packages, you can enjoy more cozy moments and sweet memories in your beautiful new home. With new home communities opening in Ellensburg and throughout the Seattle area, Dr. Horton has the ideal home for you. Learn more@drhorton.com d Dr. Horton, America's builder and Equal Housing Opportunity Builder. Are you ready to get spicy? These Doritos Golden Sriracha aren't that spicy. Maybe it's time to turn up the heat or turn it down. It's time for something that's not too spicy. Try Doritos Golden Sriracha Spicy but not too spicy. The last word with Lawrence o' Donnell starts right now with my my good friend Melissa Murray in for Lawrence. Good evening, Melissa.
- [00:54]
B
Good evening, Chris. Thank you. You're welcome. Republicans in Texas have moved forward with Donald Trump's plan to redraw congressional districts. What's the goal? Well, to give Donald Trump and the GOP five additional seats in the 2026 midterm elections, which are now just 439 days away. In the Texas state Capitol today, Democrats didn't hold back, condemning the maps as illegal and discriminatory.
- [01:21]
A
I just want to say that I do not want to take racial data into consideration in my promotion of this map. It's simply impossible to draw those maps race blind. That you have done. It's simply impossible. Knowing and making the statement that you're proud of the fact that you've drawn more Republican seats in the state of Texas. Okay, but the fact, knowing that African Americans and minorities lean democratically, it's simply impossible, Mr. Chairman. Impossible to draw on these maps race blind.
- [02:03]
B
Civil rights groups and Democratic nonprofits have already filed lawsuits over the Trump Texas maps. Marina Jenkins, the executive director of the National Redistricting foundation, had this to say in a statement. Quote, the Texas Legislature is pushing forward a congressional map that includes even fewer minority opportunity districts than the current discriminatory map, which is already being challenged in court for violating Section 2 of the Voting Rights Act. In other words, the legislature is grafting a new, more extreme gerrymander onto an existing gerrymander. That adds even more insult to injury for communities of color in the Lone Star State, despite the fact that that they make up 60% of the state population. While all of this could take months for the lawsuits to play out, Democratic governors are already moving fast to stop Trump's midterm power play. Today, California's Democratic governor Gavin Newsom signed into law his own plan to redraw the Golden State's congressional districts.
- [03:03]
A
What a farce. Nothing conservative about this. I mean, by definition, nothing conservative about this. This is radical rigging of a midterm election, radical rigging of an election, destroying, vandalizing this democracy, the rule of law. So I'm sorry, I know some people's sensibilities. I respect and appreciate that. But right now, with all due respect, we're walking down a damn different path. We're fighting fire with fire and we're going to punch these sons of bitches in the mouth.
- [03:40]
B
Voters in California will have the final say on Governor Newsom's efforts to redraw California's maps in a special election this November. During debate today in the California Assembly, Democrat Josh Lewenthal explained why California needs to fight back against Trump's scheme to redistrict Texas.
- [03:59]
A
Because Texas has now shamelessly affected the national balance of power. Our nation's democracy is faced with the exigency of existential dimensions. If unaddressed Texas actions, which occurred without the vote of its populace, will disenfranchise Californians, and we must not allow Californians voices to be silenced, it is imperative that Californians have a voice in selecting the political party that controls Congress in 2026.
- [04:35]
B
With California moving forcefully to neutralize Trump's power play in Texas, Republicans in Washington, D.C. are eyeing other states where they might, through redistricting, pick up more congressional seats. Politico reports, quote, Vice President J.D. vance and top aides have been dispatched to Indiana and staffers have phoned into Missouri. Trump is summoning Hoosier Republicans to the White House next week. The national fight to redraw congressional maps isn't just about political power. It is also a method to dilute minority representation on Capitol Hill. Congresswoman Sydney Kamlager dove spelled it out at Governor Newsom's press conference last week.
- [05:16]
A
Florida is now in play. Indiana is in play. Missouri is in play. Ohio is in play. And not only are they working to gerrymander the maps to give Republicans more seats, but they are also doing it to silence Latino representatives and to get rid of African American representatives. So it is not only a classist playbook, but it is a race based playbook because they know who the folks are who show up and who are voting to keep Planned Parenthood, to keep healthcare, to make sure that costs are down, to make sure that we have jobs, make sure that we have manufacturing.
- [05:59]
B
So now that Texas has done Donald Trump's bidding and passed a move to redraw its maps. What does it mean for Democrats in the Lone Star State? What is the impact going to be in diverse cities like Dallas and Austin and Houston? The Texas Tribune wrote this about how Donald Trump's Republican map in Texas could disproportionately impact communities of color. Quote. Under the proposed maps, districts that once primarily represented cities and suburbs that often swing Democratic would be broken up. These communities, made of large populations of black and Hispanic voters, would then be stitched to wide swaths of rural areas, effectively handing rural GOP primary voters greater control over who represents some of the state's biggest cities in Congress. Texas Republicans are effectively robbing constituents of representatives of who have worked to improve their parts of the state in some cases for more than two decades. Democrats, political observers and community groups have argued resetting the lines means that huge swaths of Texans will lose clout in Washington, D.C. our next guest, Democratic Congresswoman Gwen Moore of Wisconsin, has called on Congress to pass the John Lewis Voting Rights Advancement act, which would restore key provisions of the Voting Rights act that were struck down by the United States Supreme Court in 2013. This would mean that states like Texas would no longer be able to implement suppressive voter laws or redistricting maps that diminish the voting power of minorities without federal review. Joining us now to discuss all of this is Democratic Congresswoman Gwen Moore of Wisconsin. Representative Moore is a member of the House Ways and Means Committee and the Congressional Black Caucus. Representative Moore, thanks for joining us tonight. I wanted to talk with you first about President Trump's post on Truth Social tonight. He said in part, quote, the great state of Missouri is now in. I'm not surprised. It's a great state with fabulous people. I won it all three times in a landslide. We're going to win the midterms in Missouri again, bigger and better than ever before. Representative Moore, he's clearly signaling that Missouri will follow Texas. Do Democratic leaders have a national strategy here to counter this redistricting play? Or is it just this state by state scramble that we're seeing in California and maybe in some other Democratic states? Is there something coordinated that we can look to?
- [08:23]
A
Oh, thank you for having me. I can tell you that I have thought often that Texas had initiated a race to the bottom. This is why the Voting Rights act was so important. So for all of those viewers out there who thought that, oh, we had ended racism, that everyone had a right to vote, this is exhibit one. What is happening in Texas, and it's leading sort of a race to the bottom And I would just say be careful of what you wish for, because there are other states that we haven't talked about, like New York and other places that could, could do the same thing. I think that it would be really important for the Supreme Court to step in and at least, you know, Melissa, you tell me, you're the scholar here, whether or not Section two has any teeth whatsoever and on a Section two basis that some of this ought to be halted.
- [09:29]
B
Now, it's a great question, representative Moore. Section 2 is the provision of the Voting Rights act that prevents states from doing racially discriminatory acts that dilute the power of minority voters. But the Republicans here are saying they're not doing this on a race basis. They're doing this on the effort to make Republican control more profound. In Texas. This is a partisan gerrymander and the Supreme Court has said that federal courts can't weigh in on that. But my bigger question is what is Congress prepared to do here and what is the Congressional Black Caucus prepared to do? Many of the districts that are likely to be redrawn here are districts where some of the Congressional Black Caucus's members are representing their constituents in Congress. Like, is there a concerted effort on the part of the CBC to address this threat, threat to minority representation?
- [10:16]
A
Well, it absolutely is a threat, particularly a huge blow to the Congressional Black Caucus in Ohio, Missouri, Indiana, pitting really great colleagues, African Americans, against each other and against other progressives. I'm on the Ways and Means Committee, and Lloyd Doggett is pitched against a Hispanic, Greg Cesar, who's a dynamic young progressive, the head of the Progressive Caucus, against a brilliant person on the Ways and Means Committee. So they're saying that it's political, and certainly it is. But how is it political when you are in Missouri? The, you know, there are only two African Americans in Congress and you'd be obliterating one of them in your redistricting plan. Same thing in Ohio with Amelia Sykes or Indiana with Andre Carson. And certainly, you know, as we used to say, even Ray Charles can see this.
- [11:31]
B
Well, I hear you and I completely agree with you. This is definitely going to have an impact on minority representation in Congress. But let me press you on the Democratic response. Do you believe that the party under Chairman Ken Martin is investing enough legal and political firepower in this fight? And will the CBC actually take steps to address the threat that redistricting poses to its membership and to communities of color? The last statement that the caucus issued on its website was, was on August 12, and it was a statement about the deployment of the national guard to Washington, D.C. do you and your colleagues plan to speak out about this?
- [12:05]
A
Well, it certainly has an impact on us. And certainly, you know, we're dealing with the, with the sort of crowd, the field promise that Donald Trump has brought down because we're dealing with a myriad of conflicts all at once. We certainly think that we want to support those legal efforts to sue them. But as you know, Melissa, having standing as a Congressional Black Caucus would often be the issue with regard to our participating in a legal fight. And even as individual members of Congress, we are really very reliant on our judicial system. I think it is the last bastion of our preventing this from totally slipping into totalitarianism. And so while it's an important question about what we're doing, other than trying to do the things that we traditionally do to try to raise money and support our get our supporters to gather around and educate voters and get the vote out and to try to overcome in some cases this and join, you know, and fund lawsuit.
- [13:30]
B
Yeah.
- [13:33]
A
I think we find ourselves very much sidelined in power.
- [13:41]
B
Representative Gwen Moore, thank you so much for kicking us off tonight. Now joining us now joining us to discuss some of the legal ramifications that Representative Moore just highlighted is Professor Leah Lippman of the University of Michigan's law school. She's also my co host on the Strict Scrutiny podcast. Leah is the author of the recent New York Times bestseller Lawless how the Supreme Court Runs on Conservative Grievance, Fringe Theories and Bad Vibes. Leah, you just heard Representative Moore. There are already lawsuits that are challenging the Texas redistricting effort as racially discriminatory under section 2 of the Voting Rights Act. But as I mentioned, the Republicans are countering that race has nothing to do with their redistricting efforts, that this is simply about consolidating partisan control. In Texas, we're not why does the distinction between race and partisanship matter? As this fight heads to the federal courts, I think it's worth taking a step back to understand that question and to recognize that it is the Supreme Court that got us to this point, because it was a court that said federal courts cannot rectify partisan gerrymandering, which, of course, is what Texas and other states are now engaged in. But then in a later case out of South Carolina, the plaintiffs, the voters there tried to challenge what the legislature said was a partisan gerrymander on the basis that it was a racial gerrymander. And racial gerrymanders, those can be fixed by federal courts. But what the Supreme Court did in that case is it said it doesn't really matter if the legislature was maybe trying to keep the percentage of black voters in the different districts the same so as to give Republicans an advantage, because Republicans are so entitled to engage in partisan gerrymandering to secure a political advantage for themselves that courts should look.
- [15:30]
A
The other way when they are alleged.
- [15:32]
B
To have also engaged in racial gerrymandering, which is a kind of gerrymandering and discrimination that courts can rectify. So it was the court that allowed the Republican Party to say, we're not doing this for racial reasons, we are doing this for partisan reasons. And the court is about to be poised to take away the remaining safeguard against gerrymandering, the protections of the Voting Rights act you were discussing. So this is really helpful, Leah, to sort of tease this out. And especially it's important to understand that in states like Texas, for example, partisanship and racial background often run together so that many of the minority voters in the state are also Democrats. So it's hard to distinguish what is partisan gerrymandering from what is actually racial gerrymandering. And the Texas redistricting effort is predicated on that. As we see Texas moving to redraw its maps and California preparing to do so, and the Republicans pushing back and trying to redraw the maps in other states, where do you think the Supreme Court is going to come out on this race to the bottom? And how does that intersect with the court's decision to hold over from last term a critical voting rights challenge out of Louisiana over that state's redistricting map? I mean, the Supreme Court is just going to continue racing to the bottom of our democracy. I mean, they were the ones that cleared the way for legislatures to be engaged in this all out nuclear arms race of partisan gerrymandering.
- [16:54]
A
Because when you remove the federal court.
- [16:57]
B
As a possible ext constraint on gerrymandering, you are removing the possible check of the one institution of the federal government that isn't beholden to partisan gerrymanders. You can't rely on elections to fix gerrymandering when it's of course gerrymandering that messes up the elections in the first place. And so that leaves us with this situation where plaintiffs and voters have to rely on allegations of race based redistricting, racial gerrymandering and racial discrimination. But as you say, the correlation between race and partisanship makes it really difficult to disaggregate the two. And the Supreme Court's solutions far is just to look the other way on allegations of race discrimination and to use the correlation between race and party as an excuse to green light partisan gerrymandering that disadvantages racial minorities. So the Voting Rights act is the remaining federal law that is supposed to safeguard the political protections and political opportunities for minority voters. And what the Supreme Court did is in a case out of Louisiana, they said, you know what, we would like to decide whether the remaining provision of the Voting Rights act is even constitutional.
- [18:08]
A
So they could eliminate that possible check as well.
- [18:11]
B
Okay. So the whole situation looks great the whole way down. Amazing. All right, Leah Lippman, thanks so much for giving us those insights and getting us up to speed on the courts and the landscape that these lawsuits face. Coming up next, Donald Trump and the Republicans called it his big beautiful bill. But more and more Americans are starting to see the big ugly truth about Donald Trump's terrible budget bill, his tariff policies, and so much more. All of that is up next.
- [18:44]
A
Your new beginning starts now. Dr. Horton has new construction homes available in Ellensburg and throughout the greater Seattle area. With spacious floor plans, flexible living spaces and home technology packages, you can enjoy more cozy moments and sweet memories in your beautiful new home home. With new home communities opening in Ellensburg and throughout the Seattle area, Dr. Horton has the ideal home for you. Learn more at Dr. Horton.com Dr. Horton, America's builder and equal housing opportunity builder.
- [19:15]
B
How do you make an Airbnb a vrbo? Picture a vacation rental with a host.
- [19:20]
A
The host is dragging your family on a tour of the kitchen, the bathroom, the upstairs bathroom, the downstairs bedroom and, and the TV room, which, surprise, is.
- [19:29]
B
Where you can watch tv. Now imagine there's no host giving you a tour because there's ever any hosts at all. Ever.
- [19:37]
A
Voila.
- [19:37]
B
You've got yourself a vrbo.
- [19:39]
A
Want a vacation that's completely and totally host free?
- [19:42]
B
Make it a vrbo.
- [19:45]
A
Are you ready to get spicy? These Doritos Golden Sriracha aren't that spicy. Maybe it's time to turn up the heat or turn it down. It's time for something that's not too spicy. Try Doritos Golden Sriracha. Spicy but not too spicy.
- [20:04]
B
Donald Trump knows that he has a serious branding problem with his federal tax and spending law that was passed by the Republican controlled Congress earlier this summer. A recent poll from the Pew Research center finds that 46% of Americans disapprove of the budget law, with a third of the country strongly disapproving. Another 23% aren't sure what to make of the law. Politico Reports, quote, republicans are facing a major obstacle as they try to tout the potential benefits of President Donald Trump's big, beautiful bill. They need voters to take their word on it. For now, GOP lawmakers and top administration officials are using August to make a countrywide sales pitch for their crowning legislative achievement, a massive tax, spending and domestic policy package. The party sees this month as crucial for gaining ground in the messaging war with Democrats over the new law. And so, in an effort to put lipstick on this pig, Donald Trump dispatched his vice president, J.D. vance, to the Atlanta suburbs to deliver the MAGA spin on the bill. Take a listen.
- [21:09]
A
And I wanted to ask you about the spending bill's impact on individuals. There was a nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office report that came out last week showing that the bottom 10%, the poorest Americans, would lose about $12,000, $1,200, excuse me, a year on their income, While the top 10%, they would add about $13,000 annually to their income. Can you justify for those poorest Americans those differences? Well, first of all, the Congressional Budget Office, sometimes they put out reports that are absolutely atrocious. And I think this is a good example of a very atrocious report.
- [21:44]
B
Guess we're blaming the messenger. In its reporting, Politico details just how this law will disproportionately affect some of the most vulnerable Americans. According to Politico, quote, advocates are warning the Medicaid cuts in President Donald Trump's tax and spending law will disproportionately harm black women and children who depend on the program, worsening already disparate health outcomes among black Americans. The looming cuts, advocate say, could limit resources in high poverty schools, exacerbate maternal mortality rates, and leave black families without critical care. All of this comes on top of Donald Trump's failed promise to lower prices.
- [22:24]
A
When I win, I will immediately bring prices down starting on day one.
- [22:29]
B
On day one. Well, CNBC reports that even with no overall increase in food prices last month, Americans are still paying more for tariff sensitive staples like coffee, sugar and bananas. And new import taxes could soon push those costs even higher. Joining us now to break all of this down is Jennifer Rubin, the co founder and editor in chief of the Contrarian. She is also an MSNBC political analyst. Jen, the GOP campaign to sell this budget bill did not go well even before the bill was passed. And now that we're already starting to see its damaging effects. And are the Trump voters going to continue to buy the spin as prices continue to rise, are they going to realize that this bill was actually a big, beautiful betrayal. And will Republicans eventually pay a political price for this?
- [23:19]
A
Well, they're in deep trouble because the more people hear about the spill, the less they like it. You showed some statistics, some polling, and it's even worse when you get down to the particulars. People are very much opposed to cutting Medicaid. They're very much opposed to cutting food stamps, and they're very much opposed to giving the rich a big hunkin tax break. So the difficulty for them is they voted for something that's hugely unpopular. Usually lawmakers vote for things that hurt the fewest people and benefit the most. This is the opposite and hence their electoral problem. So that's why they've been doing all of these shenanigans. If this were so popular, they wouldn't need to go grab five seats in Texas. They wouldn't need to invade Washington, D.C. they would be out talking about this bill every day. But there's a reason why they're not doing it, and that's because it stinks and people know it stinks. And you, I think, make the correct point in tying this to the tariffs and the cost of living. Everything is going to get more expensive. If they take away your subsidies for the Affordable Care act, your health care is going to go up by hundreds of dollars per month. If they take away Medicaid, how are you going to get health care? The whole slew of programs that they have cut, whether through Doge, whether through the big bad bill, coupled with these tariffs and with the other economic measures, is going to make just about everything more expensive. So they are in trouble. And that's why they're doing a lot of these other things. That's why they're throwing red meat to the base. That's why he tried to have a summit with Putin. That's why he is trying to grab extra seats wherever he can get them. Because they can't run on their own agenda.
- [25:11]
B
Right. So we have one side of the aisle working on the politics of distraction. What are the Democrats doing right now? So this seems to be a tailor made opportunity for the Democrats to surge. Are they poised to do so?
- [25:25]
A
Well, it's a dual challenge. On one hand, it's very important to remind Americans of these totalitarian moves. Militarizing the streets of American cities is very dangerous and a very bad idea. Weaponizing the Justice Department against a whole slew of political enemies is very serious and a very bad idea. But Democrats have to be able to chew gum and walk at the same time. And I think they are. They've done a fairly good job of making this a bill that does exactly what it says, which is it takes health care away from people in food stamps. Those figures from the CBO are correct. It takes away from the most vulnerable Americans and it gives tax cuts to the rich. That's what they wanted. That's their philosophy. It's surprising that they don't defend it. That's what trickle down is all about. I'm surprised that J.D. vance didn't say, well, exactly, and everyone's gonna be better for it because that's, of course, their philosophy. But in fact, they don't believe it anymore. The American people don't believe it anymore. So they have to kind of on one hand, kind of talk up the bill, on the other hand, not talk about the specifics and then throw in a whole bunch of distraction and hope they can cheat to win the election.
- [26:41]
B
All right. Well, here's to chewing gum and walking at the same time. Jennifer Rubin, thanks so much for joining us tonight. Coming up, we are now just hours away from when the House Oversight Committee will finally receive the first batch of the Epstein files from the Trump Justice Department. Today, Donald Trump tried again to distract from this escalating scandal, and again, it didn't work. Andrew Weissman is going to join us next to break it all down.
- [27:09]
A
Your new beginning starts now. Dr. Horton has new construction homes available in Ellensburg and throughout the greater Seattle area. With spacious floor plans, flexible living spaces and home technology packages, you can enjoy more cozy moments and sweet memories in your beautiful new home. With new home communities opening in Ellensburg and throughout the Seattle area, Dr. Horton has the ideal home for you. Learn more@doctor Horton.com Dr. Horton, America's builder and equal Housing opportunity builder.
- [27:40]
B
Hey there, it's Kelly Ripa. And if you've been listening to my podcast, we are knee deep in season three. And if you haven't heard it, it's time to get on board. After years of interviewing celebs on camera, I finally get to bring you the real conversations that take place when the cameras aren't rolling. Where else are you going to hear Michelle Obama talk about keeping her girls out of Page Six, Hilaria Baldwin's hilarious reaction to Alec running for office, or Jeremy Renner's lucid hallucinations about Jamie Foxx? Nowhere else.
- [28:09]
A
It's raw, it's honest, and best of.
- [28:12]
B
All, it's off camera. And believe me, that's where you get the good stuff. So download. Let's talk off camera with Kelly Rippa. Now, wherever you get your podcasts, are.
- [28:24]
A
You ready to get spicy? These Doritos Golden Sriracha aren't that spicy. Maybe it's time to turn up the heat or turn it down. It's time for something that's not too spicy. Try Doritos Golden Sriracha. Spicy, but not too spicy.
- [28:43]
B
The House Oversight Committee is just hours away from receiving from the Justice Department the first tranche of files related to convicted sex trafficker Jeffrey Epstein. Trump's DOJ already missed the deadline earlier this week to deliver the Epstein files in response to the Oversight Committee's subpoena. But the committee's Republican chairman, James Comer, said he expects to get these files tomorrow. Do you have an update on timing for tomorrow? When you expect to start getting documents from the DOJ on Epstein and when?
- [29:13]
A
No, we just expect to get them tomorrow.
- [29:15]
B
And when do you think you might release them publicly? Do you know at all?
- [29:17]
A
Well, we're going to review and we'll work as quickly as we can. We're going to be transparent. We, we're doing what we said we would do. We're getting the documents, and I believe the White House will. Will work with us. Is there any indication of tomorrow? No, we expect to get them tomorrow.
- [29:36]
B
I believe the White House will work with us. Okay. The top ranking Democrat on the committee, Congressman Robert Garcia, said this week, Attorney General Pamela Jo Bondi is the one with the power to release the Epstein files, and she can do it right now. And if Donald Trump wanted Pam Bondi to do that, all indications are that she would. Just yesterday, a judge in the Southern District of New York called out the administration's distraction tactics when he denied the Justice Department's request to unseal the Epstein grand jury records. He is the third federal judge to deny the government's request to unseal Epstein grand jury materials. According to the judge, quote, the government is the logical party to make comprehensive disclosure to the public of the Epstein files. By comparison, the instant grand jury motion appears to be a diversion from the breadth and scope of the Epstein files in the government's possession. Well, Donald Trump is still trying to divert attention away from the Epstein files crisis, a crisis that, despite his very best efforts, he cannot make go away. Tonight, the President appeared for a photo op with the National Guard troops he deployed to Washington, D.C. at the event, the president rambled on about unrelated topics while thanking the troops and giving them burgers and pizza. But meaningfully, these efforts to distract don't seem to be working. Joining us to Talk about all of this is my colleague and friend, Andrew Weissman, the former FBI general counsel and former chief of the Criminal Division of the Eastern District of New York. Andrew is also an MSNBC legal analyst. Andrew, what files do you think the Justice Department is going to send over to Congress tomorrow? Is it information that is likely already known to the public or will there be new information?
- [31:31]
A
Well, we don't know. What we do know is that they are not releasing everything. And I think the strategy is really kind of crazy. I think this is going to be death by a thousand cuts to do this sort of drip, drip, drip, this first tranche. Even if they try to bring out something salacious about some political adversary, it's just going to underscore that they haven't released everything. The quote that you have from the Southern District of New York judge is one of several judges who are all saying that this is completely disingenuous what the government is doing here, trying to pretend to have the pretense, the illusion of transparency when they're not doing that. And I think to see this first tranche is only and should only underscore the precise point that the judge made and that you quoted, Melissa, which is that they are not releasing everything when they could.
- [32:37]
B
So to your point about the drip, drip, drip strategy, is there a chance that Attorney General Pamela Joe Bondi will find a reason to delay even this release? Ruth Marcus of the New Yorker reported this this week that, quote, Donald Trump now has the attorney general he has always wanted, an ally willing to harness the law to enable his agenda. Could Pamela Joe Bondi delay the release of these materials if Donald Trump wanted her to?
- [33:02]
A
Yeah, I mean, that absolutely is the case that she could do that. You know, the Congress has subpoena power, but they have a problem trying to enforce it. And it's hard to see how a Republican controls Congress is going to move to the courts to have the enforcement of the subpoena. They could do that, but you could have a sort of lengthy protracted standoff. The reason I think that that probably isn't going to happen. I mean, they are trying to have this idea that they have the illusion of transparency and to have that kind of court fight is just going to keep that in the news. But I think no matter what they do at this sort of drip, drip, drip policy is not going to really help them. So it remains to be seen. But I don't see this really working as a strategy. And it does lead everyone, including myself, to wonder what is in there, because it's such a crazy way to proceed. If there is nothing that damaging in there, why not just release everything?
- [34:04]
B
All right, well, let's move on to another DOJ official who seems intent on doing Donald Trump's bidding. Today, a judge ruled that Alina Haba has been serving as New Jersey's U. S. Attorney without legal authority to do so, and she's been doing it for more than a month. The judge had this to say, quote, because she is not currently qualified to exercise the functions and duties of the office in an acting capacity, she must be disqualified from participating in any ongoing cases. This is a pattern of Trump bypassing the Senate and the courts to appoint loyal US Attorneys like Alina Hava. How do you think this is going to play out and where do we go from here in New Jersey?
- [34:44]
A
Well, I think it is something to focus on in New Jersey, but also a number of other states and sort of the key issue here. I know we're both lawyers, but I think we this is one where I think it's important to sort of step outside of the legal issue for a moment and think about this. This does not happen in any normal Republican or Democratic administration because the people who are nominated are qualified. The people who are chosen are qualified. And so, Jud, even If there's this 120 day period that passes and then the judges get to choose, they always choose the person who the president has selected because they're qualified, even if they disagree with them. And so the real issue here is what it says about the Trump decision making of picking people that all of these judges around the country will not support.
- [35:38]
B
All right. Well, that is quite a word. I'm going to give you the last word on that. Andrew Weissman, thanks so much for joining us tonight. Coming up, Donald Trump isn't trying to protect democracy. He's trying to bend it to his will. But we've seen this before and we know that there are ways of fighting back. Our next guest is going to show us how. That's up next.
- [36:05]
A
In 2016, I declared I am your voice. Today, I add, I am your warrior. I am your justice. And for those who have been wronged and betrayed, I am your retribution. I am your retribution.
- [36:22]
B
Donald Trump has never been interested in running a democracy. Donald Trump has instead wanted to use his authority as president to bend democracy to his will, doling out retribution in ways that he sees fit to communities he doesn't like. Donald Trump and the Republicans have painted urban cities as chaotic dystopias in need of saving. And that's exactly how Donald Trump justified his decision to seize authority over Washington, DC's police force and to deploy hundreds of National Guard troops to the nation's capital. The Washington Post reports, quote, Trump's crackdown punctuates a frequent Republican message that American cities embody chaos, lawlessness, and immorality. Despite widespread recent drops in violent crime, with cities increasingly liberal and rural stretches ever more conservative, Republicans have a growing incentive to attack urban areas as the epitome of all that is wrong with America. But the rhetoric is untethered to reality. The Democratic mayor of Kansas City, Missouri, Quinton Lucas, said they are looking to exploit issues for political gain, not to solve them them. Residents of Washington, D.C. are also refuting Trump's characterization of their city. Take a listen.
- [37:38]
A
From what I've seen so far, D.C. has been one of the safest places I've been. There is not one hint of some sort of crime epidemic. They're trying to make it less and less safe and make you more and more scared. So I hope people will just stand up and, and let their voices be heard, because most people do not want this.
- [37:56]
B
Most people do not want this. Donald Trump is also continuing his quest to deport migrants and those with student and exchange visas. Today, the State Department told the Associated Press that, quote, it is reviewing more than 55 million people who have valid US visas for any violations that could lead to deportation. Valid US Visas. Donald Trump wants to use State Department resources to try and make up reasons to deport people who are in this country lawfully. And Donald Trump also wants to continue his campaign of retribution against institutions of higher learning. But now he's moved beyond colleges and universities. Now he is conducting a review of the Smithsonian museums. NBC News reports. Quote, Trump said he would subject the museums to the exact same process his administration has conducted of universities with the goal of making the Smithsonian less woke. That's after Trump complained on social media that the museums focus too much on how bad slavery was and say nothing about the future. What you're seeing now on the screen is a Library of Congress photograph from 1863. The photograph is of Gordon, an escaped slave. Gordon was punished for escaping, and he bore the scars of that punishment for the rest of his life. Truly brutal reminder of just how bad slavery was. Just because Donald Trump doesn't like the history doesn't mean that he is authorized to rewrite it. The history is very clear. Millions of Africans died in the transatlantic slave trade, and hundreds of thousands of enslaved persons were forced to work building this nation, farming its crops, laying its Railroads, even building the White House, where Donald Trump, Trump lives. Donald Trump would rather obscure and rewrite this history than learn from it. But we know that whitewashing the past is a move that is straight out of the authoritarian playbook. And we saw yet another example of Trump's anti democratic behavior less than a week ago. His habit of embracing dictators like Vladimir Putin, this time on US Soil in Alaska. Now, this is not normal behavior for a President of the United States. And our next guest, Professor Jason Stanley, has had enough. Professor Stanley left his position at Yale University and he will be moving to Canada, saying that he's doing so to, quote, flee Donald Trump's America. Joining us now, Jason Stanley, an expert on authoritarianism and democracy. He is moving to a post at the University of Toronto where he will be a professor of philosophy. He's also the author of multiple books, books including Erasing How Fascists Rewrite the Past to Control the Future. Jason, great to have you here. Let's talk about the Smithsonian. Donald Trump has said that the Smithsonian is focusing too much on quote, unquote, woke content, and instead they should focus on the more positive aspects of our history. How does the effort to control the channels of history and culture feed into the effort to undermine democratic institutions?
- [41:07]
A
Yeah, so it's very important to understand the overall structure of the kind of authoritarian movement we are seeing. The first chapter of my 2018 book, How Fascism Works, is called the Mythic Past. Fascism requires a mythic past because the idea is that liberals are making us ashamed of our past. And you need a strong leader to restore this pride and the supposed past. The idea is that liberals are destroying our myth, our greatness. Immigrants are destroying the purity of our past. And so we need to strike back and restore this myth of greatness. And then you can paint people who want an accurate picture of the past, people who want to address the shortcomings of the nation and, and to improve democracy, to move closer to equality. You can paint them as traitors.
- [42:17]
B
So the idea is like, you can't really move forward into an inclusive, multi faith, multiracial democracy if you can't acknowledge what previously happened and what the country has done. And so if we whitewash that and pretend it never happened, we can move forward into this not very multi faith, not very multiracial democracy where Donald Trump is on top and people like Donald.
- [42:37]
A
Trump are on top. Democracy is about equality and freedom. So a democracy is a practice of moving ever closer to equality and freedom. You need to know your history in order to know the marks of history on the present in order to understand the hierarchies that remain so we and the perspectives that other groups, that non dominant groups have experienced in order to give them more equality. So if you destroy that memory, then you destroy democratic practice itself.
- [43:18]
B
Right. So part of this project's not just to whitewash history, but also to limit opportunities for empathy. So I see the attacks on the universities and colleges as an effort to limit the opportunities for individuals to get to know each other, to get to know people from outside of their views. They talk about how colleges just indoctrinate students, but really they're worried about students really coming together and understanding something that they didn't know before.
- [43:43]
A
Democratic education is all about understanding the perspectives of your fellow citizens. An authoritarian seeks to sow fear between it, between groups. The authoritarian tells the dominant group other groups, groups are threats. Other groups are threats to your greatness, the anxiety you feel posed by the advance of these other groups. And so you make the perspectives of these other groups invisible so they seem simply threats. And you make, for example, protests and movements towards equality. You make them so people have no understanding of what the members of the dominant group have no understanding. They're like, well, what? Our nation is great. It's always been great. What's the problem?
- [44:39]
B
All right, Jason Stanley, Yale's loss is Canada's gain. Thanks so much for joining us tonight.
- [44:45]
A
Thank you.
- [44:45]
B
We are going to be right back after a few minutes. Before we head out, I want to tell you about some special programming that's going down here on MSNBC this weekend. On Sunday night at 10pm you can watch my conversation with Nicole Wallace on her new hit podcast, the Best People. We are going to discuss how the conservative supermajority on the Supreme Court is affecting the rule of law in the United States and its effects on our democracy. So I hope you will join us again. That's Sunday night at 10:00pm Eastern Time right here on MSNBC. That is tonight's last word.
- [45:22]
A
Are you ready to get spicy? These Doritos Golden Sriracha are aren't that spicy. Maybe it's time to turn up the heat or turn it down. It's time for something that's not too spicy. Try Doritos Golden Sriracha. Spicy but not too spicy.