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The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell
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Tonight on The Last Word: Republicans scramble over cuts in Donald Trump’s budget bill. Also, Vladimir Putin hosts China’s Xi Jinping and North Korea generals at a military parade. Plus, an anti-democracy blogger gains influence in the Trump White House. And Pope Francis spoke forcefully for migrants’ humanity. Rep. Eric Swalwell, Lt. Col. Alexander Vindman (ret.), Danielle Allen, and Bishop Mark Seitz join Ali Velshi.
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- [00:00]
Ali Velshi
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- [01:06]
Eric Swalwell
This day has been a bit of.
- [01:08]
Ali Velshi
A crushing emotional journey I think for everybody. So yeah, how are you feeling at 10pm There's a lot. Chipper. There's a lot. These are just we remember these days from the first Trump administration where just it's a lot lot to get through. Carla Hayden, not a particularly controversial character.
- [01:26]
Eric Swalwell
No.
- [01:27]
Ali Velshi
For all the things she was accused of doing making children gay and trans. Apparently that's not where most kids get their books at the Library of Congress incidentally. But when I looked into this movement to get her fired, it's a kind of a crazy right wing website and you're like all of us would make the cut. Like literally anything you say that is not Trumpian makes you a crazy left wing communist socialist who should be eliminated from your job. It's hard to make sense of. Very hard. Not a controversial job. Got an overwhelming 3/4 vote when she was confirmed. Yeah. And as you said, kids don't get their books from there if that's your thing, which is not either of our things, but if that's your thing. It's a pretty. But you know, as I just mentioned in the last block, we will can show a picture of her and people can make their judgments on why she was fired. We're firing librarians. We just need to, we just need to understand that that's where we are in this government. Congratulations on an amazing, strong first week. I look forward to many more of these conversations with you. Thank you, Alec. Great talking to you. Have a good show. See you next week. Donald Trump's attention seeking clown car administration is in fact coming off the rails. This is an administration filled with Fox hosts and billionaires who have little to no experience in government and who care more about trying to show fealty to Donald Trump and owning the libs, as we just discussed, than about governing. Big and Beautiful, which Trump uses to describe all of his initiatives, is not actually a policy. It's not a budget, it's not a trade deal. Expertise matters and it's in short supply in this administration and voters are realizing it. Poll after poll after poll around Donald Trump's first 100 days has showed that voters are rejecting his agenda on everything from the economy to immigration to defying court orders to gutting government agencies. They fired the head of the Library of Congress. New polling from the Associated Press today shows that 50% disapprove of Donald Trump's handling of his job as president. Donald Trump's approval rating, according to Political Wire, is in blue wave territory. And now for the first time ever in Texas, statewide polling shows Donald Trump handling the economy for the approval of that is underwater. New Polling finds that 46% of Texans do not approve of how Trump is handling the country's economy. 40% approve. 70% of Texans think Donald Trump tariffs will result in higher prices for everyday goods, including 50% of Republicans. 53% say tariffs will hurt their family. Just 22% said tariffs would help their family. James Henson, who leads the Texas Politics Project, told the Houston Chronicle, quote, president Trump owns the current economic uncertainty lock, stock and barrel. He's trying to blame others like the previous president or the Fed chair for the current disruptions. But that's a hard sell to any reasonably critical observer and likely to get harder, end quote. Reasonably critical observer is the key here. So those are voters in a red state clearly saying that they're unhappy with the Trump tariffs and Trump's overall handling of the economy. And what has Trump said in response to voter anxiety about the economy? Two dolls and five pencils talks a lot about dolls and pencils. No exemptions, by the way, for expensive baby items and car seats and strollers. He said big deal, strollers are going up. Who needs strollers? Basically just women for their girls, apparently. That's how he talks about it. Dock workers and truck workers losing their jobs. Trump says it's a good thing, cuz that means that the trade war worked and we imported less stuff. Surprise. Voters are not comforted by that, which is probably why we're seeing Donald Trump desperately looking for an off ramp to this trade war. With the stock market closing down again today, Donald Trump suggested lowering the 145% tariff rate on China ahead of trade talks this weekend. Posting, quote, 80% tariff on China seems right up to Scott B. Which is Scott Besant, his Treasury secretary. As if major decisions in this administration are up to anyone other than Trump. So there's Donald Trump again, backing down from his disastrous tariffs against China before any negotiations have begun. I want to be clear. The proposal to drop from 145% to 80% tariffs on China was not negotiated with China. It was not asked for by China. This is the Trump administration negotiating against itself. But even an 80% tariff rate against China still hurts the U.S. economy. As the New York Times reports, quote, an 80% tariff may not be low enough to restart business across the Pacific. Some executives have said that tariffs above 50% are generally enough to freeze exports to the United States. Companies that are not able to find an alternative source of supply for their products outside China are facing the prospect of bankruptcy and layoffs as the summer grinds on. And even 25% tariffs can be crippling. And today, the first shipping containers from China filled with products now subject to Donald Trump's 145% tariffs arrived at U.S. ports. CNBC reports seven ships carrying upward of 12,000 containers that sailed from China after the tariffs took effect have arrived at the ports of Los Angeles and Long beach in California. Five more such ships are scheduled to arrive in coming days. Amazon, Home Depot, ikea, Ralph Lauren, Tractor Supply. They are among the companies with Chinese goods in those containers spanning a wide range of consumer items. For many of the companies, products in categories deemed as essential to replenish are brought in despite concerns about consumer demand and an economic slowdown once shippers have finished bringing in what they consider essential stock. They are in various degrees of wait and see mode with their supply chains and continuing to cancel orders from China, which has led to widespread fears about product shortages and the potential for empty shelves. So Donald Trump's trade war is disrupting the US and global economy and having an administration full of guys who can't answer a simple question of who pays the tariffs, like Scott Bee. The treasury secretary isn't helping. And that's just on the economic side of things. Donald Trump's Justice Department is a mess. Donald Trump withdrew his nominee to be the top Prosecutor in Washington, D.C. yesterday after one Republican senator publicly voiced his opposition to Ed Martin. This man who's downplayed the insurrection at the Capitol and defended the January 6 rioters, including praising one rioter who is a Nazi sympathizer. So what did Donald Trump do? He nominated yet another former Fox host to fill the position, Jeanine Pirro, who is also a 2020 election denier. Donald Trump's FBI director, Kash Patel is reportedly holding fewer intelligence briefings and spending more time at pro sports event. NBC News reports, quote, Patel's approach to his new job has raised concerns that he's not taking the position seriously enough. A dozen current and former DOJ and FBI officials told NBC News officials who worked on the morning director's briefing. The director's morning briefings were told that the schedule was changing because Patel sometimes failed to arrive on time. The two current FBI officials says Patel sometimes seemed uninterested in the material and his intelligence briefers are struggling to craft a briefing that captures his attention. Think about that for a minute. Struggling to craft a briefing that gets the FBI director's attention. Kash Patel also showed up to a congressional budget hearing without a budget proposal.
- [10:04]
Eric Swalwell
It was due last week.
- [10:05]
Alexander Vindman
By law, I understand.
- [10:08]
Eric Swalwell
And your answer is you just understand you're not going to follow the law?
- [10:11]
Alexander Vindman
My answer is that I am following the law and I'm working with my interagency partners to do this and get you the budget that you are required to have.
- [10:19]
Eric Swalwell
And you have no timeline?
- [10:21]
Alexander Vindman
No.
- [10:26]
Eric Swalwell
Well, we also need a full budget request, not a single paragraph full of wild talking points that we saw with the skinny budget proposal. We're now having a budget hearing without a budget request. So, Director Patel, where is the FY 2026 budget request for the FBI?
- [10:43]
Alexander Vindman
It's being worked on, ma' am.
- [10:46]
Ali Velshi
Well, that was quite satisfying. What was that about hiring the best people? Okay. We've talked about the economy. We've talked about the Department of Justice. We've talked about the FBI. Let's talk about defense. Donald Trump's Pentagon under his woefully unqualified Defense Secretary, Pete Hegseth is in shambles. Pete Hegseth has been embroiled in scandal after sending messages in a signal group chat about that included Hegsett's wife, his brother and his personal attorney, leading to reports that his behavior has become erratic as he worries about losing his job and being surrounded by leakers. Now there are reports of two mishaps involving Navy fighter jets that have crashed into the Red Sea in a week, each worth roughly $67 million, along with a couple hundred million dollars worth of Drones also lost in what appears to be an undeclared war with Yemen for which the administration has provided no and has sought no approval from Congress. The Washington Post reports, quote, while the incidents have not killed any service members, they have raised questions about the strain placed on the aircraft carrier's crew and its ability to carry out a grueling deployment in which troops have clashed for months with Houthi militants in Yemen. Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth has twice extended the aircraft carrier's deployment since it left its home in Virginia last September, most recently last week to ensure that the Navy had two aircraft carriers on hand to battle the Houthis, end quote. The Houthis, with whom we are not in a declared war for no particular purpose. But what is Pete Hegseth focusing his time on now? Important things like removing transgender service military service members from the military. And the Republican reconciliation bill is floundering as Republican fantasies about wanting to give tax cuts to the rich while balancing the budget while without making huge cuts to things like Medicaid are crashing into reality at a time when political capital is waning for Republicans who are vulnerable in next year's midterm elections. The Atlantic reports, quote, reducing the deficit would require significant cuts to entitlement spending and the military, but Republicans don't want to do that. Instead, they're targeting smaller discretionary programs. The White House has suggested slashing $163 billion from education, health and housing, as well as eliminating foreign aid and green energy initiatives. The White House has promised not to touch Medicaid, Medicare and Social Security, and again, to find savings by getting rid of waste, fraud and abuse. But congressional Republicans are searching for as much as $880 billion to trim from a set of domestic programs and are focusing on Medicaid. The austerity of this project has led to panic among some Republicans whose constituents live in the real world and will notice if they can no longer see a doctor or visit a national park, end quote. And you can bet that the impact of their spending bill is going to be far worse if Donald Trump's tariffs remain in effect. Everything in Donald Trump's administration right now is a sideshow. There's kind of no plan there for any of it. There's no budget plan. There's no trade deals. There's no negotiations. Viral moments with work in a campaign. Reality still rules for a president. Joining us now is the Democratic Congressman Eric Swalwell of California. He's a member of the House Judiciary and Homeland Security Committees. Congressman, it is great to see you thank you for being here. Me too. Alex, how do you artic. How do you make sense out of this? It's all a sideshow. It's all nonsense. It's all in shambles. Kash Patel shows up without a budget. Pete Hegseth is worrying about transgender military members, but he can't get his signal chats in order. I mean, I don't know what to make of this, but it is a clown car.
- [14:44]
Alexander Vindman
Who'S benefiting. You know, that's what I ask. You know, millions of people, you know, put their hopes and dreams and their future and their kids future in the hands of this president and his administration. They were told that the cost of goods were going to go down, that we were going to be safer in the world, that our immigration policy would be sound, and that these conflicts across the globe would end on day one. Well, guess what? Your 401k today is a 201k. Four out of five of the items in your Walmart shopping cart are made overseas and they're going up. The grocery shelves will have fewer items and you'll pay more. We deported a four year old American citizen fighting cancer. And by the way, those conflicts, well, we just added one to the globe with India and Pakistan. So things are getting worse and most normal folks are like, wait, we just signed up for everything to get better and it's only more chaotic.
- [15:42]
Ali Velshi
I'm going to talk to Alexander Vindman in a moment about why you need expertise on defense. Because it wasn't on anybody's bingo card that India and Pakistan were perhaps going to go to war. But there are attacks underway at this moment. We're getting reports of bombs going off in Srinagar, the capital of Kashmir. These are both US Allies, both nuclear armed. This is not something I want part time folks who are kind of guessing about it around the table. I need people who understand this history from the day this war started, what it's all about, and how we prevent ourselves from getting into World War three accidentally.
- [16:21]
Alexander Vindman
Yeah, Ali, I care a lot about it because I have one of the largest Pakistani American and Indian American constituencies. 40% of my constituents were born outside of the United States and largely from those two countries. But why wouldn't those two countries escalate if there's no leader in the world? If they see the United States removing itself from the UN and NATO and global partnerships and, you know, just rampant incompetency across the Department of Defense and at. Why wouldn't they, you know, try and take a shot at each other? Because they'd figure there'd be no consequence from who is typically the world leader on something like this.
- [17:04]
Ali Velshi
Congressman, I hope this is just a phase because we kind of need our government back one way or the other. You can disagree with the government, but I'd like to actually know that they know what they're doing. Congressman, good to see you as always. Thank you.
- [17:15]
Alexander Vindman
You too. Thanks, Alex.
- [17:16]
Ali Velshi
Eric Swolo, congressman from California. Coming up, what have America's adversaries learned about Donald Trump from his trade war debacle? We'll talk talk about that next. Today in Moscow, Vladimir Putin held his victory day parade. This is Russia's annual glorification of its role in defeating Nazi Germany. And right there on the sidelines, standing right beside Vladimir Putin, Chinese President Xi Jinping, the two men grinning, shaking hands. The Wall Street Journal reports the celebrations included a parade with Chinese troops marching alongside Russian soldiers and India's shahed drones on display, along with Russian tanks and missiles. Putin shook hands with five North Korean officers at the parade, including three generals that South Korea spy agency said were leading the thousands of troops who are fighting alongside Russians in Ukraine. Donald Trump has reportedly been obsessed for years with throwing a military parade. Permits have already been approved for a potential parade in June for the Army's 250th anniversary, which just happens to coincide with Donald Trump's birthday. And this would come at an enormous cost, tens of million dollars to the American taxpayer. Where's the Doge people who are trying to cut costs here? American taxpayers who are dealing with higher prices and fears of empty shelves and on again, off again tariffs. So when you see America's adversaries, Russia and China standing together in Moscow, we can read that as a leadership show of force. They're betting on America's instability as Trump swings wildly on tariffs, threatening, backing down, contradicting himself, negotiating with himself. China's not caving. Trump is negotiating with himself. While Beijing is telling the rest of the world, you cannot trust America under Trump, come talk to us instead. Bloomberg reported last week President Xi Jinping is seeking to repair ties with the European Union, painting China as the more reliable partner as Donald Trump alienates the bloc over issues from tariffs to defense. The Spanish prime minister Pedro Sanchez visited Xi Jinping earlier this month pledging greater cooperation, end quote. And while a real crisis, as we just mentioned, is simmering elsewhere, a very real crisis, India and Pakistan, two countries who have technically been at war since the day of their formation in 1948, two nuclear armed neighbors, both of which are US allies, are now on the brink of war over the disputed state of Kashmir. And here's the question, is the United States ready for that? The trade war is a 100% Trump created catastrophe. He created it. But the unexpected catastrophe, we won't know who or when or where it may be. Unfolding tonight between India and Pakistan, Trump and Elon Musk have hollowed out the career, the civil service of career experts, of diplomats, of analysts. A deep bench subject matter expertise has taken a back seat in this administration to fealty and Trumpism. So if the next big global crisis explodes, who's left in the American brain trust? Pete Hegseth and whomever he's signal messaging at the moment, a skeleton crew at Marco Rubio's State Department. Rubio's got four jobs right now. That is when we will get the real damage assessment of Trump 2.0 to our own government, but also to America's ability to steer events in the world. Joining me now is the retired Lt. Col. Alexander Vindman. He served as the Director of European affairs at the National Security Council during the first Trump administration. He was one of those guys, Lieutenant Colonel, you were one of those guys who had deep expertise. Nobody knew your name. Nobody in the outside world knew who you were, but you were the guy you could call into the room and say, something's going on in Crimea and Russia and Ukraine. Tell me what it is and what we need to do about that. I worry that there are fewer of you around on this very night when there is war breaking out between India and Pakistan.
- [21:35]
Alexander Vindman
I think that's right. We're not ready for any serious crises or any serious confrontations. I think it's not just the fact that we don't have the expertise we are losing. We still have a depth of expertise. I mean, the military largely is still there. We lost a lot of senior leaders. State Department, the bulk of the State Department still there. We're losing different elements of government. USAID has been deconstructed. So it's a combination of not having leadership at the top that's effectively synthesizing the input that they're getting from their expertise and providing well thought out recommendations to Donald Trump. Not ones that he wants to hear, but maybe even hard truths that he doesn't want to hear about what confrontations could spin up if we, let's say, cavalierly attack Iran. But it's also a chilling effect of folks not necessarily sharing with their departments and agencies their best counsel because they know that's going to get them sideways with their higher ups. So we are in a very, very degraded situation, meeting all sorts of different challenges. And I do worry about different crises that are on the horizon. India and Pakistan is a real confrontation that's simmering and could explode. They fought four major wars. The last one was in 1999. We had a chief executive that played a role in attempting to moderate and attempt to convince cooler heads to prevail. We don't have that kind of leadership. And this is one corner of the world that looks particularly dangerous at the moment. But there are other dangers on the horizon that we're not ready for.
- [23:22]
Ali Velshi
February, let's call it the week of February 20, 2022. There was a problem in that there were a whole bunch of people around Vladimir Putin telling him that if he rolled into Ukraine, they would be greeted with people with roses and this would be over inside of a week and they'd take over. That wasn't the truth. But that's the problem when you're surrounded by a whole bunch of people who are interested in fealty to you as opposed to telling you the truth. Right? That's the danger of Iran. It's the danger of India and Pakistan. It's the danger of everything right now that you need people who are going to tell you the hard truth about what the situation is and how to handle it. And that's what I worry we don't have. I think you're right. I think there's still experts in the State Department, in the National Security Council. I think there's still people like you around. But are their messages getting to their bosses? And are their bosses getting it to the president so that we make the right decisions to prevent global war?
- [24:16]
Alexander Vindman
I don't think we are getting any thoughtful counsel to the chief executive right now. It's mainly there are some pockets, some indications that he might be getting manipulated in certain ways. I see some indications that the folks like Marco Rubio and Mike Waltz formerly were saying, Mr. President, we'll try it your way. Let's see if we could go ahead and accommodate Vladimir Putin and then. But we should also be prepared for the fact that he's playing with you. He's touring with you, and you're not going to get what you want. We could see that the way that played out with some of the sound bites of Donald Trump saying, well, maybe we needed to look at sanctions.
- [24:53]
Ali Velshi
We.
- [24:54]
Alexander Vindman
But by and large, we're not seeing good counsel get to the president. I worry about a domestic context, a national security crisis that emerges this summer when Donald Trump is potentially seeing larger protests in the United States and he feels like he's or he's being encouraged to invoke the Insurrection act and put US Troops on the streets. Last time around, he received exactly the opposite counsel when, when he said that maybe we should be shooting protesters in the legs. He was, he was said he was told that that was a horrible idea and that we couldn't do that. We don't have those kinds of people now. So all sorts of different ideas are floating, percolating up to the top. Laura Loomer is running the show with regards to personnel. We've got, you know, tariff policies that are coming out of, you know, all sorts of different strange corners of the White House. And nobody is really telling the president no just yet for anything encouraging him. And that is a recipe for disaster.
- [25:58]
Ali Velshi
It will be a very worrisome day if the Insurrection act comes into place and federal troops are on the streets of America enforcing domestic laws, which is not allowed, just to be clear, under the law. Lieutenant Colonel, good to see you as always, Alexander Vindman. All right, coming up, a Harvard political science professor debated a conservative blogger who's influenced JD Vance and said democracy is done. I'm going to talk to Professor Danielle Allen about that next. Hey, this is Jeff Lewis from Radio Andy live and uncensored. Catch me talking with my friends about my latest obsessions, relationship issues and bodily ailments. With that kind of drama that seems to follow me, you never know what's going to happen. You can listen to Jeff Lewis live at home or anywhere you are. Download the SiriusXM app for over 425 channels of AD, Free music, sports, entertainment and more. Subscribe now and get 3 months free. Offer details, apply work management platforms. Ugh. Endless onboarding. IT bottlenecks admin requests. But what if things were different? Monday.com is different. No lengthy onboarding, beautiful reports in minutes. Custom workflows you can build on your own. Easy to use prompt. Free AI. Huh. Turns out you can love a work management platform. Monday.com the first work platform you'll love to use. Did you know 39% of teen drivers admit to texting while driving? Even scarier, those who text are more likely to speed and run red lights. Shockingly, 94% know it's dangerous, but do it anyway. As a parent, you can't always be in the car, but you can stay connected to their safety with greenlight. Infinity's driving reports monitor their driving habits, see if they're using their phone, speeding and more. These reports provide real data for meaningful conversations about safety. Plus, with weekly updates, you can track their progress over time. Help keep your teens safe. Sign up for Greenlight Infinity@Greenlight.com podcast the Dark Enlightenment movement. You may not have heard of it, but it rejects democracy and egalitarianism. The founder of that philosophy has found a fan in the White House. The right wing blogger who Vox called, quote, the person who spent the most time gaming out how exactly the US Government could be toppled and replaced has the ear of the Vice President of the United States. In fact, the Verge reports, quote, no one online has shaped J.D. vance's thinking more. There's this guy Curtis Yarvin who's written about some of these things. We should seize the institutions of the left and turn them against the left right. We need like a de Ba' athification program, but like a de woke ification program in the United States. I think that what Trump should do, like if I was giving him one piece of advice, fire every single mid level bureaucrat, every civil servant in the administrative state. Replace them with our people. And when the courts, because you will get taken to court and then when the courts stop, you stand before the country like Andrew Jackson did and say the Chief justice has made his ruling. Now let him enforce it. Dewoke ification. Fire every civil servant. Those aren't just words. Four years after that interview you just watched, it's become policy. J.D. vance gave that interview in 2021, before Donald Trump had announced that he was running for a second term. But there was J.D. vance parroting Curtis Yarvin's ideas when discussing what would become Donald Trump's second term. So on Monday, last Monday, our next guest, Harvard Professor Danielle Allen, joined Curtis Yarvin in a debate. Professor Allen writes in the Wall Street Journal, quote, in Yarvin's telling, our age beginning in the early 20th century is founded on lies that human beings are equal and that self government by free and equal citizens is possible. DNA, he argues, disproves the former. Our current political situation disproves the latter because their lies are now foundering on reality. Mr. Yarvin maintains the time has come for regime change for an absolute monarch. Mr. Yarvin believes the monarch is Donald Trump and the time has arrived for consolidation of his power. Why is his argument attractive to so many? He's right that our political institutions are failing. He's also right that their members have failed to see the depth of our governance problems and their own contributions to them through technocracy and political correctness. The ability to unmask the hypocrisies of priests has always won adherence, but Mr. Yarvin leads them astray with his vision of absolute monarchy and racial cleansing. End quote. Joining us now is Danielle Allen, a political theorist and professor at Harvard University. She's also the director of the Democratic Knowledge Project and of the Allen Lab for Democracy Renovation. Professor, it is good to see you. Thank you for being with us.
- [31:02]
Eric Swalwell
Nice to see you, Ali. Thanks for having me.
- [31:04]
Ali Velshi
Why did you decide to engage in that debate?
- [31:07]
Eric Swalwell
It's pretty simple. Students asked me to participate in the debate, and that's my job. If students are processing intellectual material that they're encountering, it's my job to help them process it. So it was not a formal university event. It was a private event. The press that publishes Yarvin had booked a private event space on our campus. And so that was the context. Context for this debate.
- [31:29]
Ali Velshi
You, as a. As an accomplished debater, understand where you can say that Curtis Yarvin is onto something and you believe he is onto something. Where does it go wrong? Where does it go from being onto something into the conclusions he draws that are now influencing JD Vance and Donald Trump and resulting in this undoing of our government and our civil service and our way of thinking about government.
- [31:55]
Eric Swalwell
Curtis Yarwin is not onto anything more than all the rest of us are. Also onto the entire country recognizes that we are afflicted by political dysfunction. So it doesn't really matter what party you are in. A lot of us are frustrated with the health of our democracy, the health of our institutions. So in that regard, he's really just expressing common sense. But then, having expressed that common sense, he builds a false history based on really just a false account over centuries about autocracies. He makes the case that absolute monarchs have always delivered the best goods for people. In contrast, they've actually eroded freedoms, and they've also provided weak economies on the whole, if you look at the whole set of them. So he builds a false history and holds up absolute monarchy as an ideal. Equally, he pursues false arguments about human beings. He makes the case that human difference is everything. He neglects the fact that you can't even talk about human difference without having the category of human in the first place. We are all equal in being human. We have some basic features. For example, we are moral preachers. We are acting on our choices to make tomorrow better than yesterday. And that is how we exhibit our drive for freedom and our need for freedom. It's in that that we're equal. So he makes mistakes both in history and in Logic and produces this really convoluted rabbit hole style, wormhole style, conspiracy theory style argument that absolute monarchy is what we all need now.
- [33:18]
Ali Velshi
In fact, he makes the argument that once democracy is gone, everyone will just register. That all works out and we can all succeed. That's where he loses me. I don't understand how you make that conclusion. If I look at democracies around the world versus dictatorships and autocracies and monarchies, I don't see that to be true.
- [33:40]
Eric Swalwell
Well, that's an example. I mean, that's just one little passage where he just makes a wildly illogical argument. He just sort of asserts a claim without foundation. And his book, which has just recently been published, is really just a compilation of a lot of claims like that. So that's the challenge with it. And it's, you know, debate is not exactly the right word I would use for our engagement. I did my best to, you know, pull out specific claims he was making and focus on those and refute them and offer alternatives. But there are so many false historical claims, for example, so many illogical or false analogies that it's very hard actually to engage in any kind of fully complete way.
- [34:19]
Ali Velshi
It makes me very sad that some of our nation's brightest institutions are falling under under attack for various reasons. Harvard's one of them. Are there young Harvard students who are into this? Do they. Are they subject to falling for courtesy, Arvin's logic, or illogic?
- [34:38]
Eric Swalwell
Well, Harvard did send one of the first employees to Doge this past January. So there's a Harvard College undergraduate who took a leave to work for Doge and as I understand, he had at a previous event a year earlier where Curtis Yarvard had come to campus. I don't know all the details of that, but that's my understanding. And yes, I mean, certainly there are lots of students who are interested. Some students are interested mainly because he's so influential. So it's a mix. I don't want to suggest that everybody's an acolyte or anything like that, but certainly he has had an influence. He's caught people's attention and students are trying to process what he's putting out there.
- [35:13]
Ali Velshi
Professor, it is good to see you again. Thank you for joining us. Professor Danielle Allen of Harvard University. All right, coming up, the first American poet coincides with the first months of Donald Trump's second term. Up next, we'll hear the hopes for the new pope from the front lines. The U. S. Mexico border, that's next. Hey there, everyone in podcast land. I just wanted to thank you all for listening and telling your friends about our little podcast. Let's talk off camera with me, Kelly Ripa.
- [35:43]
Eric Swalwell
I know there are millions of podcasts.
- [35:45]
Ali Velshi
Out there, so I really, really appreciate you giving us a listen. There are so many gems from season one from Matthew McConaughey disclosing that he and Woody Harrelson might be brothers to Salma Hayek telling us about the argument that started her friendship with Prince. Hope you enjoy season one and stay tuned for a bigger and better season two. Dear old Work Platform it's not you, it's us. Actually, it is you. Endless onboarding, constant IT bottlenecks. We've had enough. We need a platform that just gets.
- [36:17]
Eric Swalwell
Us and to honest we've met someone new.
- [36:20]
Ali Velshi
They're called Monday.com and it was love at first onboarding. Their beautiful dashboards, their customizable workflows got us floating on a digital cloud nine. So no hard feelings, but we're moving on Monday.com, the first work platform you'll love to use. And now a credit building journey told through the majesty of music. Here's what your credit sounds like before using the GoToBank secured Visa credit card. But with the GoToBank secured Visa credit card, you can use your card for everyday purchases. And when you make on time payments, your credit will start sounding like this. It's easy with no credit check, no annual fee and credit limits starting as low as $100. Building your credit is easier with a go two in your corner. Open a Goto bank account today. These terms and conditions apply. See details@gotobank.com Trump wants a divide Trump has a negative effect on America, but on other countries. Perhaps the idea was to have an intermediary who can save not just the church, but the whole world. That's how One observer in St. Peter's Square sees the first American Pope. She's not alone. The headline of the New York Times puts it An American Pope emerges as a potential contrast to Trump on the world stage. Pope Leo's focus on refugees and his pluralistic background may offer a different view of US Values from the president's America first approach, end quote. It was thought that there would not be an American pope already. America had enough influence on the world. But an American pope will make news in America. He will command American attention. And what this American pope says and does will be put in the context of what America's president and its government says and does. The new pope, Leo's brother, told the New York Times. I don't think he'll stay quiet for too long if he has something to say. I know he's not happy with what's going on with immigration. I know that for a fact. How far he'll go with it is only one guess. But he won't just sit back. I don't think he'll be the silent one. End quote. Today, the world heard from the pope in his first homily, in which he decried preferring technology, money, success, power or pleasure to faith. And in a passage that caught some people's attention, he said, a lack of faith is often tragically accompanied by the loss of meaning in life, the neglect of mercy, appalling violations of human dignity, the crisis of the family, and so many other wounds that afflict our society. Today, too, there are many settings in which Jesus, although appreciated as a man, is reduced to a kind of charismatic leader or superman. This is true not only among non believers, but also among many baptized Christians who thus end up living at this level in a state of practical atheism. End quote. Now, the pope is a religious leader. He's not going to be giving a whole lot of political speeches. But those words seem to square with the person who earlier this year, when he was Cardinal, Bob Prevost posted an article from the National Catholic Register entitled, quote, JD Vance is wrong. Jesus doesn't ask us to rank our love for others, end quote. This was in response to JD Vance attempting to pretend that Trump's cruelty toward immigrants is defensible. Based on Catholic teaching, the pope is the largest singular religious voice in the world. The Catholic Church is an international organization. The Vatican has formal diplomatic relations with 184 of the world's 195 countries. So it's a powerful force. And like many Americans, Pope Leo is descended from immigrants. The pope's background was unearthed Thursday by a New Orleans genealogist, Jerry C. Enora, and confirmed to the New York Times by the pope's older brother, John Prevost, 71, who lives in the Chicago suburbs. The pope's maternal grandparents, both of whom are described as black or mulatto in various historical records, lived in the city's 7th Ward, an area that is traditionally Catholic and a melting pot of people with African, Caribbean and European roots. Mr. Honora also found records from the 1900 census that list Mr. Martinez as as black his place of birth as Haiti. So the first American pope is descended from the place that Donald Trump attacked on the presidential debate stage with the most twisted and disgusting lie he's ever told about immigrants. The dogs and cats lie. Joining us now is Bishop Mark Seitz of the El Paso Diocese. He chairs the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops Committee on Migration. Bishop Seitz, good to see you. Thank you for being with us today.
- [41:05]
Bishop Mark Seitz
Good evening. Good to be with you.
- [41:07]
Ali Velshi
I wonder about this. I think a lot of people have been wondering about this, that Pope Francis and now Pope Leo have strong views on love for the other, have strong views on immigration, have strong views on what causes migration in this world. It's not just a bunch of people wandering around the world in search for the best thing they can find. It's a lot of injustice. It's a lot of unfairness, it's a lot of cruelty. It's a lot of drought in the places from which they come. What does this pope mean to you in the context of this migration crisis that we're facing in the United States?
- [41:44]
Bishop Mark Seitz
Well, he means a great deal, certainly, because we know that besides being well grounded in Catholic teaching, which always has called us to have a special love and care for the vulnerable and for the poor, besides that, he knows the reality. He spent 20 years of his life working among the poor. I think more than that, actually, if you take his entire missionary experience, and so he knows what is causing people to flee their homes. He knows the. The terrible, almost unimaginable situations in which people live. And. And once one knows that, then they know that we cannot simply consider them freeloaders or people who are simply looking to buy a better car. We know that these people, if we were in their place, we would do the same thing. And we would hope we would find someone who would give us a reason to live in security and peace.
- [42:54]
Ali Velshi
So explain to me how you square the circle of the fact that the pope is a religious leader, needs to operate all around the world, and the Catholic Church has to operate all around the world. So not looking for fights that it doesn't want to get into. But we have a history in the Catholic Church in Quebec, in Poland, during Solidarity, of cardinals and bishops and popes being involved in politics in a certain way. How does he thread this needle? How does he say the things that need to be said in a world that needs to hear them without compromising the Catholic Church's ability to exist in harmony in all of the places in which it exists?
- [43:36]
Bishop Mark Seitz
Right. Well, first of all, we have to say it's fundamental to our faith that it not simply be lived within the confines of the church. Right. Of the building. Right. What we do within the church, strengthens us for our life outside the church. And the teaching of Jesus has everything to do with how we live outside the church. So while we aren't aspiring to be political leaders to develop legislation or so on, the church should be able to live as a bit of a conscience in the midst of the world as political leaders deal with these questions. So, you know, the church from the very beginning has been accused of being involved in politics. I think it kind of started with Jesus, if not the prophets before him.
- [44:29]
Ali Velshi
Well said. Let's talk about the concept of pluralism. Pope Francis was described as a pluralist. Pope Leo is described as a pluralist. There are some Catholics, some conservative Catholics, some people, some religious people in general who think religious leaders shouldn't be pluralists. It's actually the opposite of pluralism. You are highly specifically about a certain dog, mine, a certain type of thought. Tell me about pluralism and the Pope.
- [44:56]
Bishop Mark Seitz
Well, I think that word is used in many different ways. Right. But as we would understand, pluralism, it's a, it comes out of a respect for the other and for their way of thinking. You remember Pope Francis, he was indefatigable. Sorry, indefatigable about trying to call people to dialogue.
- [45:20]
Ali Velshi
Yes.
- [45:20]
Bishop Mark Seitz
All we are asking is for the opportunity for a conversation and to lay out what we, we carry with us as this heritage from the Gospel that has been developed and in our understanding through 2000 years. And we feel that if we can go to society with that and have a fair discussion, that people will also see the reason in it not only for our. It's not only about our life as Catholic Christians. In, in my case, it's about a healthy society and what a healthy society needs in order to, to carry on. We'll, we'll take on that discussion gladly.
- [46:08]
Ali Velshi
Bishop, thank you for joining us tonight. We appreciate it. The Bishop of El Paso, Mark Seitz. We appreciate your time. Tonight's Last Word is next. All right, tomorrow on Velshi, when Valeria Luiselli volunteered as an interpreter for undocumented kids who'd showed up alone in the US and were facing deportation, she would ask them a standard set of questions. Number seven was this. Did anything happen on your trip to the US that scared you or hurt you? Tell Me How It Ends by Valerie Luisella is tomorrow's banned book club feature. It's a great one and I hope you'll join us for it. That is tonight's last word. USAA knows dynamic duos can save the day like superheroes and sidekicks or auto and home insurance with usaa, you can bundle your auto and home and save up to 10%. Tap the banner to learn more and get a'@usaa.com bundle restrictions apply.