Trump’s attacks on Zelenskyy reverberating globally

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Trump’s Attacks on Zelenskyy Reverberating Globally"

The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell
Release Date: March 1, 2025
Host: Lawrence O'Donnell, MSNBC

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Overview

In this episode of The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell, the discussion centers on former President Donald Trump's controversial Oval Office meeting with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy. The episode delves into the implications of Trump's actions on international diplomacy, the global perception of the United States, and the broader geopolitical landscape. Guests including Senator Amy Klobuchar, Tom Nichols, J.D. Vance, Lindsey Graham, Congressman Joe Neguse, and Congresswoman Madeline Dean provide diverse perspectives on the fallout from the meeting and its impact on U.S. foreign policy and domestic politics.

Trump's Oval Office Ambush of President Zelenskyy

The episode opens with Rachel Maddow condemning Trump's actions during his meeting with President Zelenskyy. She describes the encounter as an "historic new low for American diplomacy," emphasizing that Trump's aggressive stance undermines the unity and support Ukraine needs in its conflict with Russia.

Notable Quote:

Rachel Maddow [04:40]: "A total perversion of U.S. foreign policy practiced by every president since World War I."

Trump’s approach involved publicly berating Zelenskyy alongside his then-number two, J.D. Vance, accusing Ukraine of risking World War III. This unprofessional conduct was widely criticized as it contrasted sharply with the respect and support Ukraine has received from other Western allies.

Reactions and Criticism

The episode features critical commentary from experts and politicians who highlight the detrimental effects of Trump's behavior on international relations and America's standing as the leader of the free world.

Tom Nichols [02:32]:

"You're gambling with the lives of millions. You're gambling with World War Three. And what you're doing is very disrespectful."

J.D. Vance [02:03]:

"What kind of diplomacy are you speaking about? What do you mean?"

Lindsey Graham [21:10]:

"Where is that country? And I'm sure that they have every concern, and rightly so, about their own security and the safety of their own secrets when dealing with this administration."

These remarks underscore the concerns that Trump's actions are not only disrespectful but also strategically harmful, potentially alienating allies and emboldening adversaries like Vladimir Putin.

Impact on U.S. Diplomacy and Global Perception

The episode discusses how Trump's actions have shaken the global perception of the United States. By publicly siding with Putin's rhetoric against a democratic leader, Trump has damaged America's reputation as a steadfast supporter of democracy and freedom.

Rachel Maddow [07:14]:

"Donald Trump is mad on Putin's behalf. Trump is mad that he failed to extort President-elect Zelensky in 2019 to stop Joe Biden from beating him in the 2020 presidential race."

New York Times columnist Tom Friedman is cited, noting that Trump's ambush has never happened before in U.S. history and represents a stark departure from traditional American foreign policy.

Tom Friedman [07:14]:

"In a major war in Europe, our president clearly sided with the aggressor, the dictator and the invader, against the Democrat, the freedom fighter and the invaded."

Democratic Response and Calls for a Reset

Democrats, represented by Senator Amy Klobuchar, condemn Trump's actions and advocate for a strategic reset in U.S. foreign policy to realign with allies and support Ukraine effectively.

Amy Klobuchar [13:15]:

"For Donald Trump and J.D. Vance to look at him and say, you never thanked us, that is just an all out lie. And everyone knows that."

Klobuchar emphasizes the need for bipartisan support to continue aiding Ukraine and countering Russian aggression, highlighting the solidarity shown by European allies and urging Republicans to join in this unified stance.

Amy Klobuchar [17:34]:

"We have to go at this from a position of strength and not from a position of surrender."

Legal and DOJ Actions

The episode briefly touches on ongoing legal battles involving the Trump administration, including actions against federal prosecutors investigating the January 6th Capitol attack. Harvard Law Professor Lawrence Tribe discusses the implications of these legal challenges on the administration's integrity and adherence to constitutional principles.

Lawrence Tribe [27:00]:

"We are really at a crisis point. ... a beacon of liberty and leader of the free world, built NATO into a 32 country powerhouse. Where is that country?"

House Democrats' Strategic Pushback

Congressman Joe Neguse discusses the Democratic strategy to counteract Trump's efforts to dismantle federal agencies and overhaul government functions. The creation of a Rapid Response and litigation task force aims to challenge unconstitutional actions and protect American consumers and taxpayers.

Joe Neguse [36:16]:

"House Democrats are united in responding to the unconstitutional and unlawful actions by this administration."

Impact on Federal Agencies and Mental Health Services

Congresswoman Madeline Dean highlights the detrimental effects of Elon Musk's management and budget cuts on federal agencies like the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration and the VA crisis line. These cuts exacerbate the mental health and addiction crises in the United States, further stressing the need for effective government intervention.

Madeline Dean [43:08]:

"What they're doing, just lopping off employees with no concept of what they do, whether they are serving those with substance abuse disorders."

Conclusion

The episode concludes by reiterating the severe repercussions of Trump's actions on both international diplomacy and domestic governance. The bipartisan support for Ukraine is emphasized as crucial in maintaining global stability and upholding democratic values. The episode calls for a strategic realignment to restore America's leadership and effectiveness on the world stage.

Rachel Maddow [45:28]:

"Let's get up to speed. We've got some breaking news right now."

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This comprehensive summary captures the essence of the episode, outlining the critical discussion points, key quotes, and the broader implications of Trump's actions on international relations and U.S. politics. It provides a clear understanding for listeners who have not tuned into the podcast, highlighting the urgent need for a unified and strategic response to uphold America's role as a global leader.

Transcript

[Rachel Maddow]

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[Lawrence Tribe]

Stay connected with the MSNBC app bringing you breaking news and analysis anytime, anywhere. Watch your favorite shows live, read live blogs and in depth essays and listen to coverage as it unfolds. Go beyond the what to understand the why. Download the app [e-mail] app now it.

[Jonathan Capehart]

Is time for the Last Word where my friend Jonathan Capehart is sitting in for Lawrence tonight. Good evening, Jonathan. It's nice to see you there.

[Rachel Maddow]

Nice to see you too, Rachel. On yet another evening of light news.

[Jonathan Capehart]

Oh God, I know.

[Rachel Maddow]

If I can.

[Jonathan Capehart]

Can I bank some of those please, from the future? I would love to have a few of those.

[Rachel Maddow]

Seriously, Rachel, thank you very much. Have a good weekend.

[Jonathan Capehart]

Thanks my friend.

[Rachel Maddow]

Thanks. Donald Trump got his revenge today against Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy at a time when his country needs America and its allies to rally behind them, not against them. Today's Oval Office ambush of a wartime president who is bravely fighting for freedom and democracy is an historic new low for American diplomacy. President Zelensky traveled to the White House to sign a deal over its rare minerals, but wanted security guarantees from the United States as it defends itself against Russia. Trump obviously did not feel he could handle Zelenskyy by himself, a formidable speaker and now a proven and courageous leader. So he called in his number two for help.

[J.D. Vance]

What kind of diplomacy, J.D. you are speaking about? What do you mean?

[Donald Trump]

I'm talking about the kind of diplomacy.

[Rachel Maddow]

That'S going to end the destruction of your country. Russia pulling its army out of Ukraine would end destruction of his country. It's that simple. But Donald Trump and J.D. vance kept berating President Zelensky in front of the cameras with lies and wild claims that an invaded country was threatening World War three.

[Tom Nichols]

You're right now not in a very good position. You've allowed to be in a very bad position and he happens to be right about it.

[J.D. Vance]

From the very beginning of the war.

[Tom Nichols]

You're not in a good position. You don't have the cards right now with us. You start having cards right now you don't have your playing cards. You're gambling with the lives of millions. You're gambling with World War Three. You're gambling with World War Three. And what you're doing is very disrespectful.

[J.D. Vance]

I said a lot of excitement.

[Rachel Maddow]

Except that there are disagreements, and let's go litigate those disagreements rather than trying.

[Donald Trump]

To fight it out in the American media.

[Tom Nichols]

You have to be thankful you don't have the cards. The problem is I've empowered you to be a tough guy, and I don't think you'd be a tough guy without the United States. And your people are very brave. But you're either going to make a deal or we're out. And if we're out, you'll fight it out. I don't think it's going to be pretty, but you'll fight it out. But you don't have the cards. But once we sign that deal, you're in a much better position, but you're not acting at all thankful. And that's not a nice thing. I'll be honest. That's not a nice thing. All right, I think we've seen enough. What do you think, huh? This is going to be great television.

[Rachel Maddow]

I will say that only the mind of a corrupt gangster would think that what we just watched was great television. President Zelensky has led his country through an ongoing assault by Russia. For three years, war crimes have been committed. Thousands of Ukrainian children have been kidnapped and taken to Russia. Huge parts of the country have been reduced to rubble. Lives are literally being lost. Right now. Zelenskyy represents the honor and bravery of the Ukrainian people, defending themselves from an unprovoked attack by a foreign army. He is a warrior, and they are wimps with their petty scolding and insults. Trump said of his ambush. Listen to this.

[Tom Nichols]

I think it's good for the American people to see what's going on. I think it's very important.

[Rachel Maddow]

On that we are agreed and there is no confusion about what we all just watched. Tom Nichols, who will join us in a moment, called it one of the grimmest days in American diplomacy, writing this meeting reeked of a planned attack, with Trump unloading Russian talking points on Zelensky, such as blaming Ukraine for risking global war, all of it designed to humiliate the Ukrainian leader on national television and give Trump the pretext to do what he has indicated repeatedly he wants to do, side with Russian President Vladimir Putin and bring the war to an end on Russia's terms. New York Times columnist Tom Friedman said the ambush was, quote, something that had never happened in the nearly 250 year history of this country. In a major war in Europe, our president clearly sided with the aggressor, the dictator and the invader, against the Democrat, the freedom fighter and the invaded. This is a total perversion of U.S. foreign policy practiced by every president since World War I. My fellow Americans, we are in completely uncharted waters, led by a president who, well, I cannot believe he is a Russian agent, but he sure plays one on tv. Just try to imagine anything like that Oval Office exchange with Vladimir Putin sitting there. It would never happen, not with Trump. And it's not because Zelenskyy isn't thankful enough. He's thanked the president, House and Senate lawmakers and the American people many, many, many times, including in his speeches to Congress, from which he received standing ovations from Democrats and Republicans alike. For goodness sake, he thanked Donald Trump today on social media. Thank you, America. Thank you for your support. Thank you for this visit. Thank you at potus, Congress and the American people. Ukraine needs just and lasting peace, and we are working exactly for that. It's because Donald Trump is and always has been enthralled with Vladimir Putin since his first term, when he shocked the world by siding with Vladimir Putin over the American intelligence community, which found that Russia interfered in the 2016 election to help Donald Trump.

[Tom Nichols]

They think it's Russia. I have President Putin. He just said it's not Russia. I will say this. I don't see any reason why it.

[Rachel Maddow]

Would be all the way to today when Donald Trump expressed more sympathy for Putin than he ever has, maybe for anyone publicly.

[Tom Nichols]

Let me tell you, Putin went through a hell of a lot with me. He went through a phony witch hunt where they used him and Russia, Russia, Russia, Russia. The whole thing was a scam and he had to put up with that. He was being accused of all that stuff.

[Rachel Maddow]

Donald Trump is mad on Putin's behalf. Trump is mad that he failed to extort President elect Zelensky in 2019 to stop Joe Biden from beating him in the 2020 presidential race. He's mad Congress impeached him for that. He is mad. He can't be like Putin, at least not yet. As Garry Kasparov writes in a new piece, the Putinization of America, unleashing Elon Musk and his doge cadres on the federal government, menacing Canada and European allies, and embracing Vladimir Putin's wish list for Ukraine and beyond are not unrelated. These moves are all strategic elements of a plan that is familiar to any student of the rise and fall of democracies, especially the fall part. Just listen to what Donald Trump said later to reporters.

[Tom Nichols]

He doesn't have to stand there and say about Putin this, Putin that. All negative things. He's got to say, I want to make peace. I don't want to fight a war any longer.

[Rachel Maddow]

Praise for a dictator at the expense of an ally, at war for democracy and freedom. But President Zelensky did take the opportunity to appear on Fox News. So I'm not Hearing from you, Mr. President, a thought that you owe the president an apology.

[J.D. Vance]

No, I respect president and I respect American people. And if I don't know if I think that we have to be very open and very honest. And I'm not sure that we did something bad. It's so sensitive for our people. I'm speaking like a president of people who are in this struggle three years and they just want to hear that America on our side and that America will stay with us, not with Russians with us.

[Rachel Maddow]

It's hard to overstate the damage done to America's statue on the world stage by Donald Trump and J.D. vance today. The message from the Oval Office today was that America is no longer the leader of the free world. America stands with authoritarian dictators over a democratically elected leader who has fought for freedom and sovereignty. All the values that America claims to stand for, Ukraine is actively fighting for during this shameful display. The Ukraine ambassador, who I have met several times, sat holding her head in her hands for me. To see her like that showed me the enormity of what happened to Ukrainians. The only audience for that performance in the Oval Office was Vladimir Putin. That was the sentiment of Republican Congressman Mike Lawlor, one of the only Republicans to even slightly criticize the Trump administration's handling of the meeting, who said, quote, sadly, the only winner of today is Vladimir Putin. Russian media is already celebrating the moment. As the New York Times reports, quote, Russian state media are savoring what they describe as a public dressing down for President Volodymyr Zelenskyy. A TV host said on his evening show that the Oval Office meeting looks more like a public flagellation for Zelenskyy and something that no one expected from the US President. European leaders, on the other hand, have rallied around Ukraine and President Zelensky after news of the heated meeting, pledging their continued support against Russia. And what of the American Republican defenders of Ukraine? Secretary of State Marco Rubio defended Trump today after sitting silently in the Oval Office. One of the Republican senators who Met with Zelensky this morning. Senator Roger Wicker, Chair of the House Armed Services Committee, deleted a post of him shaking. I'm sorry? Senate Armed Services Committee deleted a post of him shaking President Zelensky's hand at that meeting. And Republican Senator Lindsey Graham completed his walk of shame towards Trumpism, reversing not only his own long held position, but also his words from literally two weeks ago.

[Donald Trump]

I want to tell you and your people, you're the ally I've been hoping for all my life. Not one American has died defending Ukraine. You've taken our weapons and you've kicked their ass. And I'm very proud to have you as our ally.

[Rachel Maddow]

So what I think, complete, utter disaster. What I saw in the Oval Office was disrespectful.

[Donald Trump]

And I don't know if we can ever do business with Zelensky again. He either needs to resign and send.

[Rachel Maddow]

Somebody over that we can do business.

[Donald Trump]

With, or he needs to change.

[Rachel Maddow]

Leading off our discussion tonight is Senator Amy Klobuchar of Minnesota, who met with Volodymyr Zelenskyy earlier today. She is a member of the Senate Judiciary Committee. Senator Klobuchar, always great to see you. You met with President Zelenskyy before he went to the White House today. What can you tell us about that discussion and what did you think as you watched? What happened next?

[Amy Klobuchar]

Well, I was horrified because in the morning we had a bipartisan meeting with President Zelensky, with Senator Graham, Senator Wicker, Senator Grassley, and by through the week, we had meetings with President Macron, with a small group of senators led by Senator Thune. And what I kept thinking is, to a t, the Republican senators that have met with these foreign leaders have been very clear that they are supportive of Ukraine, at least the ones that go to the meeting, and that they believe that Vladimir Putin is the dictator and that he started this war. So we start with that. So I thought that President Zelensky, this couldn't have gone better. This morning he was actually looking forward to going over to the White House. He was in good spirits. So when I watch that video, there is one aggressor, there is one side showing disrespect, and that is when J.D. vance berates a president of a foreign country that is our ally. Zelensky has stood up to a dictator. They have lost hundreds of thousands of people. He did it with three simple words. The first day of the invasion, when he went down to the street corner when everyone had counted him out and said three, we are here. And that has never changed. The mass graves in Bucha, the burned out apartment buildings that I saw with my own eyes in Irpin, the Ukrainians have been incredibly brave. And so for Donald Trump and J.D. vance to look at him and say, you never thanked us, that is just an all out lie. And everyone knows that. So for me, I believe so strongly that we have to stand with Ukraine that I have to figure out and so do other senators. And I did talk to Republicans tonight, where do we go from here? And there is no choice but to continue on and to find a reset. Our European allies really stood up this week. They've pledged troops, Great Britain and France to work with Ukraine in large numbers to form a security line once an agreement is reached. The Italian prime minister, who is very conservative, went to Trump's inauguration, has called for a summit in the last five hours, she has stood with Ukraine. So I think you see others standing up, as you just noted, with President Zelensky. And I hope we see more of that in the next few days. We have no choice but to move forward.

[Rachel Maddow]

Senator, let me pick up on something you just said. You said you've talked to your Republican counterparts tonight. What are they saying?

[Amy Klobuchar]

Well, there are, I've talked to two and they would like to get this back on track. I don't think that they will be saying that publicly right now. I don't know when, but we really don't have a choice when dealing with Donald Trump. I listened to the entire Marco Rubio interview tonight and while I completely disagreed with him, as he berated again, Zelensky, if you, anyone, I just ask your viewers to watch that tape. Watch J.D. his body language. Watch Liv Zelensky saying, now could I answer that? Do you mind? He was polite and it's not even English. It's not obviously his first language. But I believe we're going to have to move forward and find a way forward. There are, it's just too much bloodshed. And Vladimir Putin, who has, you know, his regime has shot down passenger planes. He is someone who has imprisoned and killed political opponents. He is someone who has killed journalists. He will not stop. And, and Zelensky's point, Zelenskyy's point tonight in that meeting was simple. He said we need a strong ironclad security agreement which is going to mean troops and help because whether it was the Minsk agreement or other ones, Putin has violated them. And that was the simple point he was making when JD Vance claimed he was being disrespectful. It is a point that numerous Republicans have made throughout the week as these European leaders have visited.

[Rachel Maddow]

Senator, is the bottom line here that Russian President Vladimir Putin basically just wants Zelensky out of these talks, away from the negotiating table?

[Amy Klobuchar]

I mean, Putin is a strong man. He's a bully, right? And what they did today, and I just refuse to count out Ukraine and I refuse to count out the possibility of our country still being involved in peace negotiations because I know how strongly so many people feel this regardless of political party. But what they did today was undermined him. They undermined the strength of his army and his people. Afterwards you were noting what the Russians said, the former Russian president said that they treated him as an insolent pig who finally got his slap down. Is that the result that they wanted? That maybe that's what they wanted? Maybe it was an ambush or maybe they're just so hot headed that they get into the meeting and they can't have help themselves. Whatever it is, it's bad and we must have a reset and our Republicans must stand up with us and a number of them have in the past and say we must move forward and stand with Ukraine.

[Rachel Maddow]

Senator Klobuchar, I hope you are right. We'll keep our eyes open to see that happen.

[Amy Klobuchar]

Senator, it's my. Jonathan, I don't know if it will happen. I'm saying it's our only hope because otherwise we're going to abandon this and Vladimir Putin is going to march right through Ukraine and the next country and the next country. We have to go at this from a position of strength and not from a position of surrender.

[Rachel Maddow]

Senator Amy Klobuchar of the great state of Minnesota, thank you very much for being here tonight.

[Amy Klobuchar]

Thank you.

[Rachel Maddow]

And joining us now, Tom Nichols, staff writer for the Atlantic. Tom, I know how you felt when you saw Trump and Zelenskyy in the Oval Office. How did you feel when you saw Lindsey Graham's comments?

[Lindsey Graham]

I always feel a kind of sympathetic sense of embarrassment by extension, that someone is willing to do the things and say the things that Senator Graham does. Two weeks ago he said the right thing. Today he did what he did. It's embarrassing. And it's embarrassing. I worked in the Senate many years ago. I have great respect for the Senate as an institution. Normally you don't you hope not to see senators behaving this way. But it's also not particularly out of character for Senator Graham.

[Rachel Maddow]

Now, unfortunately, Tom, let's go back to that stunning moment in Helsinki in 2018 when Trump publicly sided with Putin against US intelligence experts regarding Russia working to elect Trump in 2016. How does what's happening today and since January 20th fit into that broader context?

[Lindsey Graham]

It's so interesting that Donald Trump, who changes his mind about everything, has no commitment to anything purely transactional, kind of like a goldfish who darts from one side of the tank to the other. The only thing he is absolutely consistent about is his utter fear of Vladimir Putin. He has never wavered on this. If you could look back and say, what is the polar star of the Trump administration both in its first term and now? It's always to be on the right side of Vladimir Putin. It could be out of respect. I think it's mostly out of fear. But it is a remarkable consistency in a man who is otherwise completely inconsistent about everything.

[Rachel Maddow]

How might the other members of the Five Eyes, Australia, Canada, New Zealand and the United Kingdom, view and respond to what happened in the Oval today?

[Lindsey Graham]

Well, I think this is, I think they're already feeling like they're dealing with a five alarm fire that goes back to the day Trump was elected, reelected, that they've already have perfectly, I think, legitimate fears about dealing, for example, with Tulsi Gabbard or Kash Patel or Pete Hegseth, who apparently now has ordered the Defense Department Cyber Command to cease operations against Russia. Today is just one more incredible moment where our allies have to ask what happened to the America that led them for 80 years, that led them through the defeat of the Axis, triumphed in the Cold War, maintained itself as a beacon of liberty and leader of the free world, built NATO into a 32 country powerhouse. Where is that country? And I'm sure that they have every concern, and rightly so, about their own security and the safety of their own secrets when dealing with this administration. They'd be fools not to.

[Rachel Maddow]

Tom Nichols, as always, thank you for coming to the Last Word.

[Donald Trump]

Thank you.

[Rachel Maddow]

And coming up, while Trump was embarrassing the nation on the global stage in the Oval Office, the Trump Justice Department taking out retribution on federal prosecutors who investigated the attack on the U.S. capitol on January 6th. Harvard law professor Lawrence Tribe joins us next.

[Lawrence Tribe]

MSNBC presents MAIN justice each week on their podcast, Veteran law Andrew Weissman and Mary McCord break down the latest developments inside the Trump administration's Department of Justice.

[Rachel Maddow]

The administration doesn't necessarily want to be questioned on any of its policy. I think what we are seeing is Project 2025 in action. This is it coming to fruition.

[Lawrence Tribe]

Main justice subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple podcasts for ad, free listening and bonus content. MSNBC presents a new original podcast hosted by Jen Psaki each week she and her guests explore how the Democratic Party is facing this political moment and where it's headed next.

[Rachel Maddow]

There's probably both messaging and policy issues, but as you look to kind of.

[Amy Klobuchar]

Where the Democratic Party is, do you.

[Rachel Maddow]

Think it's more a messaging issue, more a policy issue?

[Lawrence Tribe]

The Blueprint with Jen Psaki subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts for ad free listening and bonus content. Stay up to date on the biggest issues of the day with the MSNBC Daily Newsletter. Each morning you'll get analysis by experts you trust, video highlights from your favorite shows.

[Jonathan Capehart]

I do think it's worth being very clear eyed, very realistic about what's going on here.

[Lawrence Tribe]

Previews of our podcasts and documentaries, plus written perspectives from the newsmakers themselves, all sent directly to your inbox each morning. Get the best of MSNBC all in one place. Sign up for msnbc [e-mail].

[Rachel Maddow]

Trump's Justice Department continued its campaign to punish and degrade career prosecutors who brought January 6th rioters to justice. NBC News reports that Trump ally and Acting U.S. attorney Ed Martin demoted at least seven prosecutors, including the ones who succeeded in convicting the leaders of the Oath Keepers and Proud Boys, extremist groups of seditious conspiracy, the Trump administration's firing spree of the federal workforce and backlash against January 6th. Prosecutors have faced ongoing court challenges with those cases still on the docket. A group of 26 current and former USAID employees urged a federal judge at a hearing today to find that Elon Musk and Doge's very operations are unconstitutional. Their attorney said during the hearing, quote, this is a made up super agency with someone occupying a made up position. Now, the Democratic Party entered the fray today with its first federal lawsuit of Trump's second term, arguing that Trump's power grab over the bipartisan Federal Election Commission violates federal election law. The executive order purports to provide President Trump the leader of the Republican Party, with the ability to order the FEC to take particular positions on any question of law arising in the commission's performance of any of its duties, the lawsuit states. Meanwhile, the Supreme Court has not yet decided whether to uphold a federal judge's order forcing the Trump administration to pay more than $2 billion to USAID contractors who completed their often life saving work weeks ago. The Trump administration has lost most of the legal challenges so far against key parts of their agenda, including on birthright citizenship, frozen funding and transgender rights. Joining us now, Professor Lawrence Tribe, who has taught constitutional law at Harvard Law School for five decades. Professor Tribe, always great to see you. The USAID case, it's the first time the Supreme Court is weighing in on a Trump 2.0 lawsuit. What do you make of Chief Justice Roberts temporarily pausing a federal judge's ruling to unfreeze billions of dollars owed to USAID contractors? And when do you think the Supreme Court will rule?

[Donald Trump]

It's clearly dealing with this case on a very fast track. Interestingly, it is a case that began on the first day of Trump's new term as president. On that very day, he did what he promised he was going to do before he said, I will be a dictator on day one. And the first thing he did as a dictator was basically to erase what Congress had said should be spent in foreign aid, and much of which had already been committed with projects that had been finished around the world. A couple of billion dollars. And what he said was, I'm not bound by Congress. It may have the power of the purse, but I have the power of the sword. And I'm going to cut right through all of the congressional commitments. That led to a flurry of cancellations around the world. People who are starving, people who are in great need, American contractors who are dealing with their problems. And a federal judge in the District of Columbia, Judge Amir Ali, held several hearings and issued a very clear order. Stop invading Congress's power of the purse. When Congress says the money must be spent through USAID or through the State Department on all of these thousands of projects around the world, you've got to do what Congress dictated. That's actually settled law. And there were hearings and orders that this judge issued on February 13, February 14, February 15, February 25, the net result is that every time the Trump administration said, no, you know, we're not going to put ourselves in contempt, but on the other hand, we're not going to comply with your orders. And so finally, the US Supreme Court is going to look at this. And if Chief Justice Roberts is at all faithful to what he said 15 years ago in a case where President Obama and his State Department were violating what Congress had specified with respect to the Middle east and with respect to Jerusalem, Roberts. In a famous case called Zivatovsky against Kerry, Roberts dissented. He said the majority is letting President Obama get away with something that violates our whole history. When Congress, within its sphere of authority, either over foreign policy or especially the power of the purse, when Congress makes the law clear, the president has to comply. That was the holding that Roberts wanted the court to come out with. Roberts now says we're going to take a look at this case. And if Roberts is true to what he said 15 years ago in that very important case, unless he says the rule is different for Trump from what it was for Obama, they will plainly have to say that finally, the State Department and the president have to spend the money that Congress specified. You know, they can oversee the problems of, as they call it, waste, fraud and abuse. But what the president has said is even though Congress by a statute specified where the aid should go, it's up to me to decide if it's consistent with my priorities. So he really did want to be a dictator on day one. And all of the cases you've recited show that across the board, we are turning things upside down globally in terms of whether we stand with our allies or cave into Putin, domestically, in terms of whether we use the Justice Department for purposes of, of revenge as opposed to enforcement of the law, we are really at a crisis point. And even though the court hasn't acted yet on exactly what is going to happen with respect to almost $2 billion that Congress is appropriated in foreign aid, I do expect a ruling quite soon.

[Rachel Maddow]

Soon. Well, Professor Lawrence Tribe, when that happens, I'm sure we will have you back. Professor Tribe, thank you as always for coming to the Last word. And coming up, Democrats have a new plan to take on Elon Musk and his co president Donald Trump and their attacks on the federal government. Congressman Joe Negus. Well, join us to explain next.

[Lawrence Tribe]

MSNBC presents Main justice. Each week on their podcast, veteran lawyers Andrew Weissman and Mary McCord break down the latest developments inside the Trump administration's Department of Justice.

[Rachel Maddow]

The administration doesn't necessarily want to be questioned on any of its policy. I think what we are seeing is Project 2025 in action. This is it coming to fruition.

[Lawrence Tribe]

Main justice subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple podcasts for ad free listening and bonus content. The first 100 days, bills are passed, executive orders are signed and presidencies are defined. And for Donald Trump's first 100 days, Rachel Maddow is on MSNBC five nights a week.

[Jonathan Capehart]

Now is the time, so we're gonna do it.

[Lawrence Tribe]

Providing her unique insight and analysis during this critical time, how do we strategically.

[Jonathan Capehart]

Align ourselves to this moment of information, this moment of transition in our country?

[Lawrence Tribe]

The Rachel Maddow show, weeknights at 9pm Eastern on MSNBC.

[Rachel Maddow]

Here is a Trump supporter in the Oval Office who works for a pro Trump network and is reportedly dating Maga media hound Marjorie Taylor Greene asking a question of the President of Ukraine, purportedly as a member of the White House press corps. You're the highest level in this country's.

[Tom Nichols]

Office and you refuse to wear a suit.

[Joe Neguse]

Just want to see.

[Rachel Maddow]

Do you own a suit? Yeah.

[Lindsey Graham]

Yeah.

[Rachel Maddow]

Problems? A lot of Americans have problems with you not respecting the safety of this office.

[J.D. Vance]

I will wear costume after this war will finish. Okay, yes. Maybe something like yours. Maybe something like yours. Yes. Maybe something better. I don't know.

[Donald Trump]

We will see.

[Rachel Maddow]

Look, y'all know I love a suit. All men should wear suits, if you ask me. But President Zelensky hasn't worn a suit since Russia invaded Ukraine three years ago. And as he said in that exchange, he will wear a suit when the war on Ukraine is over. But what's Elon Musk's excuse for, in the words of that pro Trump media personality, not respecting the dignity of this office, all while upending federal agencies and destroying the federal workforce under questionable authority? And now he's looking to take over the Federal Aviation Administration's air traffic control communications system. The Washington Post reports the FAA is close to canceling a $2.4 billion contract with Verizon in favor of Elon Musk's Starlink. 1 Government ethics expert told the Washington Post, quote, because of Musk's current position in Doge and his closeness to Trump, he and his company are getting an advantage and getting a contract. Who's looking out for the public interest here when you get the person who's cutting budgets and personnel from the FAA suddenly trying to benefit from still another government contract? House Democrats are fighting Elon Musk and Donald Trump's government takeover with a newly created Rapid Response and litigation task force chaired by our next guest, Congressman Joe Negus. And today it filed its first legal action. More than 200 House Democrats signed on to an amicus brief backing a lawsuit that seeks to stop Donald Trump's efforts to dismantle the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau. Joining us now is the assistant Democratic leader in the House of Representatives, Congressman Joe Neguse of Colorado. Congressman Negus, thank you very much for coming to the Last Words. So here's the question. Are Democrats united in a strategy to challenge the Trump Musk overhaul? And how confident are you feeling about the court standing up to pressure from the administration?

[Joe Neguse]

Well, it's good to be with you, Jonathan, and good evening, and thanks for having me on. The answer to your first question is a resounding yes. House Democrats are united in responding to the unconstitutional and unlawful actions by this administration, the executive orders, and, of course, as you know the agency directives, many of which have already been held unconstitutional or unlawful in federal courts across the country. In the vast majority of these cases, the Trump administration has failed in defending the propriety of their actions. But I also just want to say this, Jonathan. I was listening to your opening prologue there, and I would just simply say if there's one group of people in Washington that are looking out for the American taxpayers and for the citizens of our country and vindicating our Constitution, it's House and Senate Democrats. The conflicts of interests and potential corruption that you described with respect to the activities of DOGE and the dismantling of our federal agencies is astounding. It should shock the conscience of every American. And House Democrats, by virtue of this task force where we're leveraging the talents of so many members of our caucus, intend to push back. And that's precisely what we're doing. You mentioned the important step we took today with respect to the litigation regarding the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, which happen to talk a bit more about, but fundamentally is all about protecting American consumers. The fact that the Trump administration sought early on in this administration to dismantle the Consumer Protection Financial Bureau tells you everything you need to know about their plans for the American consumer, which is to ultimately raise prices and harm American taxpayers. So House Democrats are on it, and we're pushing back.

[Rachel Maddow]

Congressman Nagus, when you speak to your Republican colleagues, do you get the sense that Republicans are feeling pressure from their constituents to push back against Elon Musk?

[Joe Neguse]

I certainly think that that is developing. You've seen the outrage, you know, metastasizing across the country in terms of constituents raising their voices against the dismantling of the federal workforce, the impacts to everyday Americans in terms of the reckless budgetary policies that Republicans are pursuing, gutting Medicaid and vital lifelines for so many folks across our country. And I do think that Republican members are beginning to feel that outrage. However, I will say, Jonathan, it has been astounding to watch my colleagues on the other side of the aisle consistently capitulate to Donald Trump. And of course, as you know, many of the colleagues on the other side of the aisle are now sycophants to this administration. So they have been unwilling thus far. Not a single Republican was willing to stand up against $800 billion in Medicaid cuts just last week with respect to the budget resolution that Republicans passed. So time will tell as to whether any of them ultimately are willing to stand up for their constituents. We're certainly going to continue to speak truth to power and make clear the contrast in terms of our values and the people we're fighting for, ultimately, American taxpayers. And, of course, what the Republicans are up to.

[Rachel Maddow]

Congressman Joe Negus of Colorado, thank you very much for coming to the Last Word.

[Joe Neguse]

Thank you.

[Rachel Maddow]

Coming up, as Republicans are trying to run and hide from angry town hall voters, we'll ask Congresswoman Madeline Dean, how is Elon Musk's takeover is playing in Pennsylvania?

[Donald Trump]

If Elon Musk is there, he will be able to raise questions.

[Rachel Maddow]

And because of his fame and financial.

[Jonathan Capehart]

Success, I think all of a sudden.

[Rachel Maddow]

He is going to be able to force Congress to look at things like.

[Donald Trump]

Aircraft which would otherwise okay.

[Rachel Maddow]

The laughter. Wisconsin's Republican Congressman Glenn Grothman faced backlash from his own constituents for his support of Elon Musk in a town hall last week. That righteous anger was directed at Republican town halls across the country. And those Republicans have had enough, but not of Elon Musk. They've had enough of the voters. NBC News reports. A GOP aide said House Republican leaders are urging lawmakers to stop engaging in them altogether. Obviously, we're very aware of those headlines. A Republican National Committee official familiar with the dynamic said, I don't know that a specific edict is going to come down from on high that they need to stop or anything, but a message I believe has been clearly sent that this narrative should end very soon. Don't be so sure about that. Democrats are out hearing from voters and raising hell about the Musk cuts in their states and communities. Joining us now, Democratic Congresswoman Madeline Dean of the great Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. She's a member of the House Judiciary and Foreign Affairs Committees. Congresswoman Dean, thank you very much for being here. Some people are only now starting to realize the massive impact of Elon Musk and Donald Trump's cuts to federal agencies. Can you talk about that impact on your state, a state Donald Trump won by 100,000 votes?

[Jonathan Capehart]

Good to be with you, Jonathan. And I have an update for you now. In my fourth term, I have joined the Appropriations Committee and I do remain on the Foreign Affairs Committee. So I'm watching very closely what is going on with Doge Elon Musk and the incompetent wrecking ball approach. But if you don't mind, Jonathan, this has been just an extraordinary day with the president and the vice president in the Oval Office office, with President Zelensky, a man three years at war, losing citizens every day, the United States standing by him, and yet a vice president egging on a president to bully President Zelensky. My constituents and they are calling me off the hook. Are dismayed and disgusted by what took place today in the Oval Office by the vice president and the president disrespecting that location, a place that is nearly sacred in terms of diplomacy. And yet they had no measure of diplomacy. They were just bullies.

[Rachel Maddow]

Let me get you on. And thank you for saying that. We were here to talk about the stuff that Elon Musk is doing, but he doesn't only seem to be targeting the mental health of the federal workforce, but the mental health of millions of Americans. This month, Elon Musk fired 10% of staff at the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration. The VA crisis line has also been impacted by layoffs.

[Jonathan Capehart]

Well, you know, I was thinking about this mental health, addiction and opioid overdose, which is a serious, critical problem in this country. Veterans in terms of the hotline and also Veterans Health laying off probationary workers. And by probationary, what that means, it's the newer workers into the system. It doesn't mean they've done anything wrong. They are early on in their careers. We don't want to cut them off. We know that we have a serious mental health crisis in this country and for our young people. Covid was so hard on them and on their mental health. We have an overdose crisis in this country. I call it the loss of a jetliner a day. 300 souls a day die in this country from overdose. More than 100,000 people. I was thinking about how these drastic and incompetent cuts by Elon Musk. We all would love to save money and be more efficient and effective, but they're just incompetent. What they're doing, just lopping off employees with no concept of what they do, whether they are serving those with substance abuse disorders. And you marry that to what we just. Well, we didn't. The Democrats did not. But what the Republicans passed with the massive proposed cuts to Medicaid. In my own state, 100,000 people get services, get treatment for substance use, for addiction, the disease of addiction. 100,000 get it through Medicaid. Imagine trying to just throw gasoline on what is already a problem. So whether it's mental health, it's addiction and substance use, it is our veterans. Doge is in an incompetent way taking a wrecking ball to the system.

[Rachel Maddow]

Pennsylvania Congresswoman Madeline Dean, as always, thank you for coming to the Last Word.

[Jonathan Capehart]

Thanks, Jonathan.

[Rachel Maddow]

And tonight's Last Word is next. I'll be back tomorrow for the Saturday show when I'll be joined by Congressman Gregory Meeks of New York, the ranking Democrat on the House Foreign Relations Committee, to talk about the seismic shift in US Policy when it comes to Ukraine and Russia. That's tomorrow at 6:00pm Eastern right here on MSNBC.

[Lawrence Tribe]

Stay connected with the MSNBC app bringing you breaking news and analysis anytime, anywhere.

[Rachel Maddow]

Let's get up to speed. We've got some breaking news right now.

[Lawrence Tribe]

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[Rachel Maddow]

There's a lot happening here in Washington.

[Amy Klobuchar]

As Donald Trump's second term starts to take shape.

[Lawrence Tribe]

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