Trump's DOJ releases audio of Maxwell interview as House lawmakers get first batch of Epstein Files

Summary

The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell (Hosted by Ali Velshi):

Episode Summary — “Trump’s DOJ releases audio of Maxwell interview as House lawmakers get first batch of Epstein Files”

Air Date: August 23, 2025
Substitute Host: Ali Velshi

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Episode Overview

This episode delves into two major breaking stories:

• The Trump Justice Department’s release of audio from Ghislaine Maxwell’s recent interview, conducted by Trump’s own criminal defense attorney–turned–Deputy Attorney General.
• The simultaneous handover of the first 33,000 pages of the long-awaited Epstein files to the House Oversight Committee, with heavy political undertones and speculation about distraction and retribution.

Through interviews, analysis, and direct audio segments, the show explores how these events intertwine with attempts to control the narrative about Donald Trump's past connections to Jeffrey Epstein, the legitimacy of Maxwell's testimony, and growing concerns over politicization and retaliatory justice within federal law enforcement.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Political Context & Alleged Distraction Tactics

• Trump’s DOJ released the Maxwell interview audio minutes before Congress received Epstein files — viewed by commentators as a deliberate distraction from potentially damaging Trump/Epstein information.
• Concurrently, the FBI raided the home and office of John Bolton, once Trump’s National Security Advisor, now a prominent critic, stoking claims of retribution against enemies.

Quote [02:02, Ali Velshi]:
“Donald Trump’s been doing anything and everything to distract from his past relationship with the convicted sex trafficker Jeffrey Epstein and his convicted co-conspirator Ghislaine Maxwell.”

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2. The Ghislaine Maxwell DOJ Interview

Key Audio Excerpts (Direct from Transcript):

• Maxwell praised Trump:

  “As far as I'm concerned, President Trump was always very cordial and very kind to me. And I just want to say that I admire his extraordinary achievement in becoming the President now. And I like him and I've always liked him.”
  (03:49)

• Downplayed Trump/Epstein connection:

  “I don't know how they met and I don't know how they became friends... I certainly never witnessed the President in any inappropriate setting in any way. The President was never inappropriate with anybody.”
  (04:12–05:53)

• Denied wrongdoing and tried to separate herself from Epstein:

  “He literally had a separate life for me. I literally had a separate life from him... he kept a lot to himself...”
  (06:38)

Analysis by Panelists and Guests

• Maxwell’s testimony is widely dismissed as self-serving and not credible by both politicians and legal analysts.
• Instead of investigating Epstein’s crimes or victim advocacy, the DOJ interview (conducted by Trump’s own former lawyer) is seen as a thinly veiled attempt to craft material favorable to Donald Trump.

Quote [13:56, Rep. Raja Krishnamurthi]:
“0. I think she's a liar. She's a convicted perjurer. The fact that she denied any wrongdoing during this interview that she had with Blanche is all you need to know about whether she can be believed or not.”

• The proffer agreement cited by Todd Blanche is speculated to offer limited immunity, and Maxwell’s subsequent transfer to a lower-security prison shortly after the interview raises red flags.

Quote [09:20, Ali Velshi]:
“The most important part of this agreement is that this isn't a cooperation agreement... I'm not promising to do anything.”

Legal Analysis [29:28, Christy Greenberg]:
“...the way that he went about this just really calls into question what is the purpose. It just seems like an entire farce. It's not like any interview I've ever heard, particularly of someone who has been convicted of such a serious crime... the whole time you were scratching your head and saying, like, this just seems so transparently that we needed somebody, anybody, to say, Donald Trump didn't do anything wrong.”

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3. Response from Epstein Survivors & Advocates

• Maxwell continues to attack and undermine her victims’ credibility.
• Survivors’ advocates remain wary that Maxwell is positioning herself for a Trump pardon.

Virginia Giuffre about Maxwell [10:42]:
“She is a monster. She's worse than Epstein... she was the guy controlling the strings. Jeffrey? Yep, she was pulling strings. She had his money, he had her contacts. But Guy Lynn was much more conniving and smart than Epstein ever was.”

• Brother of a victim (on the potential of a pardon for Maxwell):

  “It would unwind everything that my sister and all the survivors fought for. It would be a disgrace of justice. It would be picking abusers over survivors again.”
  (28:23)

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4. Congressional and Bipartisan Response

• Rep. Raja Krishnamurthi (Oversight & Intelligence Committees):
  • Emphasizes the bipartisan demand for the full unredacted Epstein files over conspicuous “distractions” like the Maxwell interview.
  • Suggests Maxwell is lying in hopes of clemency, but Congress is unlikely to permit a pardon.

Quote [11:58–18:05, Krishnamurthi]:
“It was basically an attempt to distract from what I think everybody really wants to see, which is all the Epstein files... the fact that they keep going to this interview transcript... is again, attempt to distract from what everybody wants, which is full disclosure...”

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5. Bolton FBI Raid and the Pattern of Retribution

• The FBI’s search of John Bolton’s home/office is widely interpreted as politically motivated, fitting a pattern of targeting critics and former allies who turn against Trump.
• Vice President J.D. Vance’s remarks hint at an ongoing investigation about “classified documents,” but language and public disclosures are seen as abnormal for such cases.

Quote [23:22, Krishnamurthi]:
“The way that this raid was kind of rolled out through these orchestrated tweets really smacks of political retribution.”

• Discussion about a broader chilling effect, with even Republican lawmakers showing rare bipartisan concern for executive overreach.

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6. Legal Expert Takeaways on DOJ Conduct

• Former federal prosecutor Christy Greenberg and ex-FBI agent Rob d'Amico strongly criticize the conduct and legitimacy of the Maxwell interview:
  • Unusual choice for a DOJ criminal interview—Trump’s former defense attorney, not an independent investigator.
  • No probing or challenge of obvious falsehoods, leading questions to exonerate Trump.
  • Maxwell, already convicted of perjury, not held accountable for new lies.

Quote [31:44, Rob d’Amico]:
“If it was, you would have had the case agent and the lead U.S. attorney doing it because they know the facts... Having a case station there to interview the main subject is so important... Some of the questions were actually leading, letting her know, even if it wasn't said before the recording, the way he has to question told her what he wanted the answer to be.”

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7. Economic News (Brief Segment)

• Amid political turbulence, the show briefly notes the Trump administration’s new intervention in Intel, the Federal Reserve’s signals toward possible interest-rate cuts, and the ongoing inflation crisis worsened by tariffs.

Quote [40:58, Heather Long]:
“Fed Chair Powell clearly opened the door big time to a September rate cut. The markets loved it. Wall Street cheered and they also cheered at the White House... [but] there is a real economic concern here.”

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Notable Quotes & Segments with Timestamps

• Maxwell lavishes praise on Trump — 03:49
• Maxwell minimizes Trump/Epstein friendship — 04:12–05:53
• Congressman Krishnamurthi on Maxwell’s credibility — 13:56
• Legal analysis: DOJ interview a ‘farce’ — 29:28
• Epstein victim’s brother: A pardon would ‘unwind everything’ — 28:23
• Rep. Krishnamurthi on Bolton raid as retribution — 23:22

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Memorable Moments

• Maxwell’s repeated denials are shown to be directly contradicted by prior victim testimony (notably Virginia Giuffre), with panelists highlighting the harmful impact of platforming those denials without challenge.
• Congressional commitment to bipartisan scrutiny of the Epstein files — rare unity across the aisle provoked by the gravity of the allegations.
• Legal experts’ unanimous view: The Maxwell interview was neither a quest for truth nor justice, but a performative effort with the clear goal of benefiting Trump’s public image.
• Bolton raid’s symbolism: Even past loyalists are fair game once on Trump’s "enemies list," underlining the climate of retribution and fear.

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Conclusion

This episode offers a dense, critical look at the intersection of justice, politics, and media manipulation in the Trump era. The main takeaway is a portrait of a Justice Department and political culture where loyalty tests and narrative control threaten to overcome truth-seeking and actual accountability, with survivors and advocates for justice sounding the alarm about what’s at stake.

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Transcript

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[Ali Velshi]

The Last Word with Lawrence o' Donnell starts right now. Ali Velshi is in for Lawrence. Good evening, Alex.

[Chris Hayes]

You know, Miles is right. I, I've interviewed John Bolton for years. Can't say one time we've ever been on the same side of a policy issue. Most recently was after he had his security removed after an assassination threat by the Iranians for something, by the way, that I think he shouldn't have done in the first place. But the bottom line is we sort of, you know, stand by the idea that we don't go for assassination threats. I think, I think you're right. This, this alliances that you had, allegiances that you had, party views that you shared count for nothing anymore. Yeah. I mean, Donald Trump called, called, called John Bolton a whole bunch of things today for a guy who was really close to.

[Congressman Raja Krishnamurti]

Yeah.

[Ali Velshi]

And I think, you know, the line here is the line of, from their perspective, the line is who's in the MAGA cult and who's out.

[Chris Hayes]

Yeah.

[Ali Velshi]

And the line for everyone else is like who stands for the, the, the freedom, the liberty, the democratic spirit of self governance and the constitutional order?

[Congressman Raja Krishnamurti]

And who doesn't?

[Chris Hayes]

We'll continue to be honest, my friend. Thank you. You have yourself a great night and a great evening. We'll see you next week.

[Ali Velshi]

Thanks. Appreciate it.

[Chris Hayes]

And as Chris alluded to, we are following an avalanche of breaking news tonight. Donald Trump's been doing anything and everything to distract from his past relationship with the convicted sex trafficker Jeffrey Epstein and his convicted co conspirator Ghislaine Maxwell. Today, in response to a subpoena, Trump, Trump's Justice Department delivered its first batch of the Epstein files, more than 30,000 pages, to the House Oversight Committee. Their files at the Republican chairman of that committee, James Comer, has promised to make public, but he hasn't said exactly when. Now, as those 30,000 pages of the Epstein files were handed over to Congress, Donald Trump seemingly deployed two distractions. Attorney General Pam Bondi sent FBI agents to search the home of Trump's former National Security advisor turned Trump criticism, John Bolton. And then this afternoon, about 15 minutes before the House Oversight Committee confirmed that it received some of the Epstein files, another Trump loyalist at doj, Trump's personal criminal defense attorney and now Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanch, announced the release of the audio transcripts of the interview that he conducted last month with Ghislaine Maxwell. Now, we're going to play some of the audio for you, but before you listen to any of it, remember that Ghislaine Maxwell is a convicted co conspirator of Jeffrey Epstein. Today, the top ranking Democrat on the Oversight Committee, Congressman Robert Garcia, said, quote, ghislaine Maxwell is a convicted sex trafficker and a known liar. Her interview with Trump's DOJ lawyer shows that she's desperate for a pardon. She claims no involvement in wrongdoing, which is insulting to the girls and young women she victimized and trafficked. She, she cannot be trusted. She cannot be trusted. And today we learned during this interview that Ghislaine Maxwell, whom Donald Trump has not ruled out pardoning, lavished praise on Trump.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

As far as I'm concerned, President Trump was always very cordial and very kind to me. And I just want to say that I find I admire his extraordinary achievement in becoming the President now. And I like him and I've always liked him. So that is the sum and substance of my entire relationship.

[Ali Velshi]

What about Mr. Epstein's relationship with him?

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

I don't know how they met and I don't know how they became friends. I certainly saw them together and I remember the few times I observed them together that they were friendly. I mean, they were friendly.

[Chris Hayes]

Remember Jeffrey Epstein told the author Michael Wolf In August of 2017, quote, I was Donald Trump's closest friend for 10 years. But here's what Ghislaine Maxwell said during the interview about Donald Trump's behavior and that friendship with Epstein.

[Ali Velshi]

Did you ever observe President Trump receive a massage?

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

Never.

[Ali Velshi]

Did you ever observe. You said that you, you were I mean, have you seen the. There's photographs, public photographs, Mr. Epstein and President Trump together.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

Yes.

[Ali Velshi]

And there's photographs of. I think you're in some of the photographs as well. Those all appear to be social settings.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

Yes, that's my memory. If there was social settings. I don't know Epstein's. If he had. Whatever the nature of the President's friendship, if you will, or however you want to define that with Epstein, I was never witnessed. I think they were friendly like people are in social settings. I don't think they were close friends or. I certainly never witnessed the President in any of. I don't recall ever seeing him in his house, for instance. I actually never saw the President in any type of massage setting. I never witnessed the president in any inappropriate setting in any way. The President was never inappropriate with anybody.

[Chris Hayes]

President was just a great guy, you know, you don't have to be. You know, I'm not a lawyer. I just get my law training from Law and Order. That's all you need to be able to understand now what the purpose of that meeting and that interview with Ghislaine Maxwell was. Ghislaine Maxwell also refuted the Wall Street Journal reporting that Donald Trump sent Jeffrey Epstein a body letter for his 50th birthday with a drawing of a naked woman. That concludes, happy Birthday and may every day be another wonderful secret. She also refuted the existence of a client list of Jeffrey Epstein, something that Donald Trump's Attorney General, Pam Bondi, said was on her desk a few months ago. Ghislaine Maxwell, who's already been convicted, not only downplayed Donald Trump's relationship with Epstein, she also tried to distance herself from Epstein and his crimes.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

Another thing is that everyone puts us together like a monolith. He literally had a separate life for me. I literally had a separate life from him. Now, did they say. Well, of course they did. I'm not. That's not crazy. But he kept a lot to himself and he didn't like to share. He was not a sharer. Well, at least not with him.

[Ali Velshi]

Mr. Epstein.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

I saw him with lots of masseuses. I never saw a single masseuse ever look unhappy or not come back or whatever. So based on my observation, I don't think that if you are being raped as now, he's like this prolific. I just can't imagine why you would.

[Ali Velshi]

Return what you observed at the time.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

Not at what I observed at the time, no.

[Chris Hayes]

The judge who sentenced Ghislaine Maxwell to 20 years in prison said this at her Sentencing hearing, quote, the evidence at trial established that Ms. Maxwell directly and repeatedly and over the course of many years participated in a horrific scheme to entice, transport and traffic underage girls, some as young as 14, for sexual abuse by and with Jeffrey Epstein. Ms. Maxwell is not being punished in place of Epstein or as a proxy for Epstein. The trial established evidence that Ms. Maxwell was instrumental in the abuse of several underage girls and that she herself participated in some of the abuse. And it is her conduct for which she has been convicted in the court under the laws of this country. And it is her conduct for which she must be held accountable. Today, Britney Henderson, an attorney for numerous Epstein victims and survivors, said in a statement, quote, ghisaine Maxwell was federally indicted on two perjury counts as a result of her testimony during her civil deposition. Having been convicted of sex trafficking, she's now in jail, presumably hoping that she will receive a pardon from President Trump. I can't imagine that her testimony will be given much weight by anyone with any knowledge whatsoever of her involvement in with Jeffrey Epstein, end quote. And let's consider again, who conducted this interview, forget about why it had to take place. Donald Trump's defense attorney who now works for him at the Justice Department, Todd Blanche, said this at the beginning of the recording. This.

[Ali Velshi]

Okay, so before we started recording, we've met for a few minutes. I introduced myself and we, we chatted. And now I told you that we were going on the record. And before we start asking questions, I know that you've been given by your lawyer a copy of what's called a proffer agreement. And I just want to spend two minutes making sure that you understand.

[Chris Hayes]

What.

[Ali Velshi]

Governs our conversation today. The most important part of this agreement is that this isn't a cooperation agreement, meaning that by you meeting with us today, we're really just meeting. I'm not promising to do anything.

[Chris Hayes]

Quote, before we started recording, we met for a few minutes. So there was an off the record part of this whole conversation that has not been released. Totally not suspicious at all. The proffer agreement he mentions, that's Todd Blanche essentially granting Maxwell a form of limited immunity. Remember, Todd Blanche represented Donald Trump in a criminal case. One week after this interview took place, Ghislaine Maxwell was transferred to a lower security prison camp that did not, until she arrived, house convicted sex offenders. And despite her conviction, she continues to claim she's innocent.

[Ali Velshi]

Do you have recollection of you ever recruiting a masseuse from Mar A Lago Spa to give. To go give a private massage to.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

Ms. EPC, I've never recruited a masseuse from Mar a Lago for that. As far as I remember. I can't ever recognize doing it.

[Chris Hayes]

Now, that directly contradicts what Virginia Giuffre, one of Jeffrey Epstein's victims, said when, while working as a locker room attendant at Mar A Laga. Giuffre said she was reading a book on massage therapy when she was approached by Ghislaine Maxwell. Here's what Virginia Giuffre told NBC News about Ghislaine Maxwell.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

She is a monster. She's worse than Epstein. She. She did things even worse than Epstein did. She was vicious, she was evil, and she was a woman. Epstein was Pinocchio and she was gesto. She was the guy controlling the strings. Jeffrey? Yep, she was pulling strings. She had his money, he had her contacts. But Guy Lynn was much more conniving and smart than Epstein ever was.

[Chris Hayes]

That was Virginia Giuffre talking to CBS News. Virginia Giuffre died by suicide on April 25th of this year. Leading off our discussion tonight is Democratic Congressman Raja Krishnamurti of Illinois. He's a member of both the House Oversight Committee and the House Intelligence Committee. Congressman, good to see you. Thank you for joining us. Very enlightening to hear the bits of this that we heard today because the other shoe has dropped. Right. We were all wondering why Todd Blanche needed to be involved in this interview. We were all wondering, given that she's been tried and convicted and is in jail, what benefit accrues to the Department of Justice by sending the deputy attorney general to speak to her. And now we sort of get it right. He asked her all the possible ways and she answered all the possible ways to say Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein didn't have that much to do with each other.

[Congressman Raja Krishnamurti]

That's exactly right. And it was basically an attempt to distract from what I think everybody really wants to see, which is all the Epstein files. That's what we need to look at to really understand the nature of, you know, Donald Trump's potential involvement with Jeffrey Epstein and others. And I think that, you know, the fact that they keep going to this interview transcript and then they talk about unsealing grand jury materials is, again, attempt to distract from what everybody wants, which is full disclosure of the Epstein files. And that's a view shared widely by Democrats and Republicans.

[Chris Hayes]

Tell me what just to make the distinction between those things, because a judge has said you can't get the grand jury stuff. This, as you know, we're not sure what this was about. We're gleaning what this conversation between Todd Blanche and Ghislaine Maxwell was about. But what is it that you in Congress can achieve and get that can help us get to the bottom of the story?

[Congressman Raja Krishnamurti]

Well, today we received a first tranche of documents, some 33,000 pages of documents. And I think people are feverishly going through these documents as we speak right now. And we'll be going through it through the weekend to understand really what's in this first production. But there's more and we need to get the rest of those documents as well. And we need to understand, quite frankly, what's missing from this first 33,000 in order to be able to expose what needs to be produced. The interesting thing is that the MAGA base is watching very carefully, and so they are an important audience in part for what Democrats and others are going to be talking about with regard to these files.

[Chris Hayes]

What's your sense of how much stock anyone should put in what Ghislaine Maxwell says?

[Congressman Raja Krishnamurti]

0. I think she's a liar. She's a convicted perjurer. The fact that she denied any wrongdoing during this interview that she had with Blanche is all you need to know about whether she can be believed or not. I don't believe anything that she said, quite frankly. I think she's in it to try to get a parted say whatever it takes to get clemency. I've introduced a resolution opposing that, and I hope that Democrats and Republicans will join me in making sure that she doesn't get clemency as a hardened sex trafficking criminal. But at the end of the day, we need those files, we need the documents to be able to evaluate anything she says going forward, or for that matter, what anyone else says as well.

[Chris Hayes]

But do you glean the same thing that I glean when I listen to that? I don't know what took place in the moments before they started recording, but basically, Todd Blanche kept asking her questions that didn't seem broadly about Jeffrey Epstein or his conviction or his alleged suicide. It all seemed to be about, can you keep on saying things that will help us exonerate Donald Trump? And she kept on adding to that with things about how great Donald Trump was and how Donald Trump couldn't possibly have been involved.

[Congressman Raja Krishnamurti]

That's exactly how I read it and how I heard it. I think that, you know, Donald Trump is dangling the possible pardon or clemency that she wishes to get, but I think that she is, you know, going to continue to try to fabricate testimony to try to extricate him from this situation. Again, we go back to the files. That is really where I think the truth lies. And there's possibly more than 100,000 pages at least. In fact, Senator Dick Durbin pointed out that something like a thousand FBI agents were tasked with going through those hundred thousand pages of documents and flagging every single instance Donald Trump's name was mentioned and those documents were somehow set aside. So that's a set of documents that, for instance, we would like to see, among others.

[Chris Hayes]

Are you confident that you'll be able to glean what's missing?

[Congressman Raja Krishnamurti]

No, I think we have to kind of go through it. We'll probably have to talk to other witnesses to try to understand what else would be in there. But I think that over time, we should be able to sleuth out anything that's potentially being withheld.

[Chris Hayes]

And.

[Congressman Raja Krishnamurti]

But again, I go back to this interesting situation where we have kind of bipartisan demands for accountability. This might be the first time that I'm seeing this in this Congress or in any Congress where Donald Trump was president, given the fact that my Republican colleagues seem to be silent when he acts with impunity otherwise. But here, there seems to be, I guess, a heightened level of scrutiny.

[Chris Hayes]

Well, I mean, so bipartisan that Mike Johnson decided to sort of cancel Congress in the hopes that after five weeks, this will go away and he might extend your recess. But the bottom line is, I'm not sure it's going away.

[Congressman Raja Krishnamurti]

No, I don't think so. Remember, when we come back, the resolution that a couple of my colleagues have introduced calling for the full production of those documents is likely to be taken up as a vote on the floor. In addition, even Ghislaine Maxwell's deposition has been noticed up for September 29th. I believe that we need to depose other witnesses who are even more central to the Epstein affair, such as Alex Acosta, the US Attorney and former labor secretary who actually negotiated the sweetheart plea agreement with Jeffrey Epstein and knows his case inside and out. We need to be able to talk to him. But again, we need those files and documents, you know, in order to evaluate everybody's claims about what happened.

[Chris Hayes]

Congressman, I want you to stick around because I have other matters to discuss with you. I always appreciate you being on our show with us. It's been a busy Friday, and we have a lot of stories developing on a lot of fronts as Donald Trump has continued to bend the Justice Department to his will. Today, the FBI searched the home and office of one of Donald Trump's biggest critics, who also happened to work for the first Trump administration. John Bolton. That's next. As I mentioned, lots of news today. You could call it news, you could call it distraction, you could call it retribution. It could be all of the above. Today, just hours before Donald Trump's Justice Department released that first batch of long awaited Epstein files to the House Oversight Committee that we've been discussing, FBI agents descended on the Maryland home and the Washington, D.C. office of the former United States Ambassador to the United Nations, John Bolton. He's a former Trump aide who is now a vocal Trump critic. Bolton, of course, served as Trump's National Security advisor for nearly a year and a half during Trump's first term. Since leaving the White House, John Bolton has called attention to the many foreign policy blunders that Trump has made over the years. As FBI agents searched Bolton's house and office, Trump said this to reporters. No, I don't know about it. I saw it on television this morning.

[Rob d'Amico]

I'm not a fan of John Boy. He's a real sort of lowlife, not a smart guy. But he could be a very unpatriotic guy.

[Chris Hayes]

I mean, we're going to find out. I know nothing about it.

[Rob d'Amico]

I just saw it this morning.

[Congressman Raja Krishnamurti]

They did a raid.

[Chris Hayes]

I tell Pam and I tell the.

[Rob d'Amico]

Group, I don't want to know, but.

[Chris Hayes]

Just, you have to do what you have to do. In case you missed that, by the way, he's got a new cap. It doesn't say make America great again. It says Trump was right about everything, which is altogether too many words for a cap. Donald Trump's FBI spent more than eight hours combing through Bolton's home and office. Sources tell NBC News that federal prosecutors were searching for, quote, classified records, end quote. And FBI agents were seen leaving Bolton's home today with a desktop central processing unit which caches memory and data and several other boxes of evidence. The agents put multiple boxes, some taken from Bolton's garage, into the trunk of a black SUV. Just 12 days ago, John Bolton told ABC News that he expected Trump's retribution. Trump's retribution campaign, we're seeing at the FBI and the Justice Department. You're obviously on his enemies list, at least Cash Patel's enemies list. Are you worried that they're going to come after you in some way? I mean, he's hinted at it before. Well, I think he's already come after me and several others in withdrawing the protection that we had for from the Iranians for the attack on Qasem Soleimani. So I think, and I said in the new Forward to the paperback edition of my book. I think it is a retribution presidency. John Bolton's 2020 memoir, The Room Where It Happened, detailed his Oval Office experience, painting Trump as a leader who frequently put personal interests above national security. Earlier this year, Trump revoked Bolton security clearance. He made a mention of that in that interview. The Iranians have targeted John Bolton, and Donald Trump has withdrawn security for him. But earlier Today, Vice President J.D. vance insisted that this search of his home and his office wasn't political. Well, so we're in the very early stages of an ongoing investigation into John Bolton. I will say we're gonna let that investigation proceed.

[Mint Mobile Announcer]

What's at the root of this? Is this about classified documents?

[Chris Hayes]

Well, I'll let the FBI speak to that. Classified documents are certainly part of it, but I think that there's a broad concern about. About Ambassador Bolton. They're gonna look into it, and like I said, if. If there's no crime here, we're not gonna prosecute it. A lot of problems with all that. There's a broad concern, but if there's no crime, you know, like, we're sweeping up information, basically, we're in the very early stages of an ongoing investigation. That's the words that the Vice President of the United States used. We're in the very early stages. So the President said he knew nothing about this. The Vice President tells Kristen Welker, we're in the early stages of an investigation. Interesting use of the word we. If you are not involved in this. In a true break from protocol, Trump's DOJ and FBI officials made public statements hinting at today's search as it played out weirdly. Republicans in Congress have stayed quiet about this today, but House Oversight Chairman, Committee Chairman James Comer said this on Fox. I don't know what John Bolton did. Obviously, he deserves due process.

[Congressman Raja Krishnamurti]

But I do believe that Cash Patel and Pam Bondi and John Radcliffe and Tulsi Gabbard are serious about holding the Deep State accountable for all the mistakes.

[Chris Hayes]

And all the abuses of power that we've witnessed from the Deep State over the past decades. Well, I'll leave you to judge whether you think that's a sensible statement. Congressman Roger Krishnamoorthy is back with us. Congressman, there's so much here. I've been interviewing John Bolton for years. Can't say I've agreed with him once on any kind of foreign policy. He's not a stupid man, but he's got some strong, hawkish views on stuff. I don't agree with what he did on Iran. I also don't agree that he should be targeted by the Iranians for death, which is what was the case. And he was under protection because of that. And that was lifted in the first piece of retribution against John Bolton. Seems to fit the pattern here.

[Congressman Raja Krishnamurti]

Yeah, I think so. Look, we have to always protect classified intelligence. You and I have talked about this many times. But the way that this raid was kind of rolled out through these orchestrated tweets really smacks of political retribution. And let's just be very clear. This was not just meant to silence John Bolton. This was meant to send a message to anybody that the FBI could visit a home near you if you criticize the Trump administration. And as I said earlier, I believe that this was really an attempt to distract from the production of the Epstein files, which was going to happen today, and which is not one of Donald Trump's favorite subjects. And so just the whole spectacle, the whole situation wreaked of politics more than.

[Chris Hayes]

Anything else, well, it kills two birds with one stone. Right? It might be distraction from Epstein, and it's this campaign of retribution that Donald Trump was very clear he would engage in. The interesting thing here is that Bolton was one of those guys who was super loyal to Trump. He was gonna be a. I think he was gonna be the Secretary of State. I don't think he was gonna get the votes in the Senate to be able to be confirmed. But he was the national Security advisor. He was tight with Trump for a long time. I. Until he wasn't. And that's the message, that you can be loyal to Trump, you can have nothing to do with Trump, but if you ever find yourself on the other side of Trump, it's all going to look the same. They're going to come after you a certain way. To the extent that the vice president surprisingly said to Kristen Welker, we're doing a broad investigation into him, I think that's exactly right.

[Congressman Raja Krishnamurti]

You know, I think that you see just a pattern of former Trump administration officials that have been added to this enemies list. And again, I think that he's also sending a message to current Trump administration officials, don't cross me. You know, John Bolton, at one point, was convenient for him to have in his Cabinet. Then he basically disagreed with Trump on certain matters, and then he went on the outs, and at that point, he became an enemy.

[Chris Hayes]

You bring an interesting point up, one doesn't know what they're investigating, and one doesn't know. And John Bolton is a guy who would have had access to classified information. I just don't know but it all starts to look the same. Right. Adam Schiff looks the same as Tish James, who looks the same as a Federal Reserve governor who nobody had heard about before this week, who now is being looked into for mortgage fraud. Miles Taylor was saying, soon enough they'll be looking for traffic tickets for everybody. The point here is that if the government comes for you, you have to get yourself into a certain mode. You have to get lawyers of a sort. You can't just get any lawyer. You gotta have somebody who's prepared to do that. There are increasingly fewer lawyers who are prepared to, to take on these fights because they don't want to get into it with the government. This is a big deal.

[Congressman Raja Krishnamurti]

It's a big deal. And this is where, you know, the government is going off the rails. Look, I think that I'm here in deep southern Illinois and the thing that I'm hearing over and over again is not only just concern about the Epstein files, but the mismanagement of the economy, the fact that there's an affordability crisis, the fact that electricity bills are going, are skyrocketing and people can't afford groceries and gas. And so I think Trump is increasingly going to try to distract from his mismanagement of the economy as well as the Epstein files by turning to other subjects, one of which is, you know, going after people like Schiff or going after people like Bolton or going after Vindman and so forth, and trying to rally his MAGA base around him at the same time that the. I think the majority of the American people don't like the direction of the country. And so now it's up to us as Democrats, but really as citizens of this country to stand up, speak up and make sure that we hold Trump accountable and that we think about architecting a system of reforms to prevent a Trump like presidency from happening again. That's what we're going to have to do eventually, a post Watergate type of set of reforms, because now we know what can go wrong when we trust too much discretion to the executive.

[Chris Hayes]

Yeah. Although this might be like fixing an airplane while it's flying. Right. We're going to have to do some of this stuff while this bumpy flight is still in the air. Congressman, good to see you as always. Thank you, Congressman Raja Krishnamurthy of Illinois. We got to fit in a quick break. More on both of these breaking news stories after this. The Justice Department's release of Ghislaine Maxwell's interview with Trump Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanch calls into question what would happen if Donald were ever to issue Maxwell a pardon. Here's what the brother of one of Jeffrey Epstein's victims told NBC News's Hallie Jackson last month.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

If Maxwell were to receive a pardon at some point, what would that mean for you?

[I]

It would unwind everything that my sister and all the survivors fought for. It would be a disgrace of justice. It would be picking abusers over survivors again.

[Chris Hayes]

All right. Joining us now, Christy Greenberg, former federal prosecutor and former deputy chief of the Criminal division for the Southern District of New York. She's an MSNBC legal analyst. And Rob d', Amico, a former FBI special agent who's now an MSNBC national security and intelligence analyst. Welcome to both of you. Thank you for being with us to that point. Christy, there was a moment. We've not heard from Ghislaine Maxwell for a long time. There was a moment where Ghislaine Maxwell could have focused some of this conversation on the survivors and the victims. She doubled down on not doing that. She continues to deny that she had contrary to evidence. She continues to deny that she had anything to do with this. She emphasized how she and Epstein had sort of separate lives and she wasn't really all that involved.

[Mint Mobile Announcer]

Yeah. She actually takes pains throughout to call them alleged victims and to say at various points she doesn't agree with their testimony at trial. And at the points where she starts to say, hey, I don't agree with what this victim said. This victim was wrong. There are points where Todd Blanche actually stops her and says, I don't want to make this a he said. She said, well, what are we doing here? That's actually the point. You are trying to assess her credibility at base. That's what we're looking to do. You're providing information. We're trying to figure out if you're telling the truth. And yet every time she tries to get into specifics, at one point he even tells her, I'm not asking you for corroborating information. Those are words I've never heard a prosecutor say. That is what we live by to figure out if you're telling the truth. Do you have any evidence to support your story? Right. That's what journalists do. That's how you find the truth. And the way that he went about this just really calls into question what is the purpose. It just seems like an entire farce. It's not like any interview I've ever heard, particularly of someone who has been convicted of such a serious crime. She's all over the place. She's kind of. She's attacking the victims, attacking lawyers, attacking prosecutors, claiming that people are conspiring to falsify evidence that the picture with Prince Andrew is a fake. And, I mean, it's just a wild ride through this deposition. And the whole time you were scratching your head and saying, like, this just seems so transparently that we needed somebody, anybody, to say, Donald Trump didn't do anything wrong. And if this is the person who we need to do it, then okay.

[Chris Hayes]

You know, Rob, I conduct interviews and Christie conducts interviews, and you in your life as a. As an FBI special agent, conducted interviews. They're all a little bit different, but they're all meant to glean something. This did have a very unusual feel. It felt like the goal here was not for the Deputy Attorney General of the United States, Todd Blanche, to glean information that was. That would accrue to the benefit of the American people. It felt like Donald Trump's lawyer trying to get Ghislaine Maxwell to say things that were super complimentary about Donald Trump or exonerating of Donald Trump. It wasn't. This was not a further investigation into the Epstein crimes?

[Rob d'Amico]

No, absolutely not. I mean, if it was, you would have had the case agent and the lead U.S. attorney doing it because they know the facts. So that when she said something that was contradictory to those facts, they would grill and they say, no, but. And they would bring up witness testimony, they'd bring up other facts to support that. Having a case station there to interview the main subject is so important. One time we had a terrorist that was a kidnapper. We flew the case agent from New York to Afghanistan because no one else could do that interview. I knew the case, but I didn't know it like she did. And it's the same thing here. The case agent and the lead prosecutor on this know the facts and could have grilled it. And, and some of the questions were actually leading, letting her know, even if it wasn't said before the recording. The way he has to question told her what he wanted the answer to be, I mean, it was just. It's not from an investigator.

[Chris Hayes]

Let's go a few steps back, Christy. Why did this interview take place? What is the argument that. That, that a prosecutor would make. Ghislaine Maxwell is a convict. She's a convicted sex trafficker. She's in jail now. She's in a slightly nicer jail. But what, what was, what is the argument that you would use in front of, you know, a court to say why this had to happen?

[Mint Mobile Announcer]

So it's rare, but it happens. Where after someone has been convicted, they say, we want to come in, we want leniency. And in exchange, we have something that the government may want. We have substantial assistance to provide. Usually before you even get the person in an interview, the prosecutor will ask the defense attorney, okay, give me a preview. What are we talking about here to figure out if it's worth their time? I mean, now we're Talking about the DOJ's number two should really be worth his time. Right? So that conversation, I would imagine, happened what it is that would have been worth Todd Blanche's time when she is completely said that she was a scapegoat for Jeffrey Epstein. She didn't even really say that Jeffrey Epstein did all that much. And she said no one else did anything that she saw. It's like, what is the value? The only value we come back to is exonerating Donald Trump. But in, in a normal interview, there would have to be assistance like, hey, I'm going to help you charge other people. I'm, I'm going to be a witness for you or give you investigative leads so you could charge somebody else.

[Chris Hayes]

But we didn't seem to get there in this conversation.

[Mint Mobile Announcer]

None of that happened. She's unusable as a witness. She lied multiple. There are provable lies in this transcript. Things like she said she didn't have access to her discovery. The court found she had more access to discovery than any other inmate. Things like that. Provable lies, which if you lie to a federal agent, that's a crime. So she not only didn't add value in the ways that you would traditionally expect, she seemed to hurt her case by doing things like lying, but she was never called out on that because I think she understood the assignment. The assignment was to give the goods on Donald Trump and not give the goods to say that he did nothing wrong and she satisfied the assignment.

[Chris Hayes]

I'm curious as to what conversation took place that wasn't recorded or what conversations took place ahead of time. But, but Rob, I think that's fair to say that both of the participants in that conversation understood the assignment. Todd Blanche understood his assignment. And again, we have gleaned nothing out of this interview about anybody else who might be charged or anybody who should have been charged. This was all about, was Donald Trump here? Did you see Donald Trump do this? Did you see Donald Trump do that? What was the nature of their friendship? This was a Donald Trump fishing expedition with, with Ghislaine Maxwell. This wasn't broadly about the Epstein case. It was certainly not about victims and survivors. And it was about nothing more broad. Nobody, we've got no further information about this as a result of the deputy Attorney general going to visit Ghislaine Maxwell and then Ghislaine Maxwell getting moved to a lower security prison.

[Rob d'Amico]

No, absolutely not. And like I said, normally you understand what they're going to say beforehand and then you go in, in deposition because that's kind of as, as she said, kind of goes before this conversation. But again, it's one of these, what I'd love to know what was said before the conversation because I, I think things were said before it. But again, even in that manner, it was just leading questions and then he didn't know the facts. So that when she said something, he couldn't even, like, go against her and say, no, no, this witness said this. And, and again, the lies that are out there, she, you know, she lied to a federal agent. That's another crime that could be prosecuted.

[Chris Hayes]

So this is an interesting point, Christy. In the rare occasion where something like this would happen after someone's convicted and then there is a discussion. And look for those people who were following the Menendez case where he was not granted probation, it was the same idea. He had to say a lot of things and people who were experts on the case were in that room to be able to determine whether he was telling the truth or not. There's somebody else in the Justice Department who could have been in that meeting, if this was that important, important a meeting to have somebody who, to rob's point, knew the details, would have known she's lying, would have been able to say, hold on a second, you're actually not telling us the truth here?

[Mint Mobile Announcer]

Well, absolutely. I mean, the prosecutors on the case, there were four prosecutors on the case. Three of them are no longer there. Maureen Comey, the lead prosecutor, was fired by, by Trump right before this interview happened. But there is one prosecutor at SDNY who is still there and she tried this case. She was intimately involved in it. She's an excellent prosecutor. I, I, I have seen her in court. She, she's very, very good. She is somebody you would want there. Lara Pomerantz and the agents who worked on the case at the FBI, you would want them in the room. And trust me, if they had been in the room, it wouldn't have gone down like that. They would have cut her off at multiple points when she was rambling, when she was going on and on, when she was evasive. Like there are many points where you have to press a witness, where you have to stop a witness where you have to call the witness, take a break, call the witness's lawyer outside and say, hey, this isn't going well. She's dooming herself here. Like there any there was no control over this. It was just say whatever you want to say as long as you stick to the script that Donald Trump did nothing wrong.

[Chris Hayes]

Yeah. And for what we can see, she did.

[Mint Mobile Announcer]

Yes.

[Chris Hayes]

Thanks to both of you. We appreciate it. Christy Greenberg and Rob d'. Amico, good to see you both. All right, coming up, while all that breaking news was happening today, some truly unbelievable economic news was developing that would have the hosts at Fox News screaming if it were any other president in the White House. That's next.

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[Chris Hayes]

Amidst the fire hose of breaking Epstein and Bolton news, some major business headlines flew under the radar today. CNBC reports the Commerce secretary, Howard Letnick said on Friday that the United States government has taken a 10% stake in the embattled chipmaker intel, the Trump administration's latest effort to exert control over corporate America. Wall Street Journal reports Federal Reserve chair Jerome Powell opened the door for rate cuts next month when he said the labor market might be softening enough to rein in inflation that is being pushed up by tariffs. Today the Fed chair said economic conditions may warrant a rate change. But he cautioned that tariffs and softening labor markets mean the Fed will, in his words, proceed carefully. Joining us now is Heather Long, chief economist at Navy Federal Credit Union and a contributing columnist at the Washington Post. Heather, great to see you. Let's start with the Fed because everybody needs context on this, right? The, the, the Trump administration is trying to get rid of Jerome Powell, whom Donald Trump insists was put into his job by Joe Biden, though he was put into his job by, by Donald Trump. He wants the Fed to cut interest rates. Lots of presidents do. That might not be the right thing to do until the Fed has inflation under control. So what did, what did Jerome Powell say about interest rates? That might be true and that might be a reaction to what Donald Trump is trying to get him to do.

[I]

Yeah, it's a really good question. Look, Fed Chair Powell clearly opened the door big time to a September rate cut. The markets loved it. Wall street cheered and they also cheered at the White House. But let's talk about the rationale that Fed Chair Powell used. He really did a 180 and said, look, that his views had changed based on what we saw in that shocking July jobs report. And he acknowledged that there are some really big risks now to the labor market. And basically we've been living with a job market that's frozen for the past six months, almost no hiring outside of the healthcare sector and a few AI jobs. And there's now cracks. You know, we've got the most number of people on unemployment insurance since November 2021. We've got a number of industries that are now la laying off workers, including manufacturing that's really been hit hard by the tariffs and even the retail sector is laying off people. And so that's what he was talking about, that he's seen those risks and that's the justification for a September rate cut. So I don't think that this is pressuring and caving to the White House. There is a real economic concern here.

[Chris Hayes]

And by the way, when you mentioned health care, I mean that's the one sector that grows jobs sort of no matter what happens. So you almost have to discount that because we, we, we grow healthcare jobs all the time in America. There's obviously the danger and the Fed stuck in a, between a rock and a hard place because they don't want to create a recession. They don't want to be in a situation where economic growth slows too much because we're losing jobs. But it is harder to fight inflation than it is to fight a recession. And is inflation, is there enough of a handle on inflation yet that the Fed can start to think about cutting rates back? He did say that the inflation pressures brought on by the tariffs are a problem, Definitely.

[I]

There's no doubt that tariffs are causing prices to rise. We've started to see that a little bit and we are definitely going to see that more in the months to come. There was that much buzzed about Goldman Sachs analysis of all people saying, look, this summer only about 20% of those tariffs have been passed along to consumers, to the middle class. And they're expecting close to 70% by October or November. So it's coming. But I think what's really interesting, what I heard today from Fed Chair Powell is he described that while prices will rise, he doesn't think it will be a long lasting inflation crisis. And the reason why is really important, Ali, and that is the middle class can't take it. You know, the middle class budgets, we see this at Navy Federal Credit Union. People are stretched right now. They don't have a lot of extra income to go out and absorb higher prices like they did even in 2022. And so that's why a lot of these brands, you saw Walmart, Home Depot, they're saying that they're going to pass more of the costs on, but they're not talking about major price hikes because they know the consumer can't handle it.

[Chris Hayes]

Heather, good to talk to you as always. Thank you for joining us. Heather Long is the chief economist at the Navy Federal Credit Union. We'll be right back. We quilt this city with a comfy roll.

[Mint Mobile Announcer]

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[Chris Hayes]

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[Ghislaine Maxwell]

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[Chris Hayes]

Before we go, I want to tell you about what we've got coming up this weekend on the Vel She Ben Book Club. A story about no ordinary boy. He's queer, trans and a witch. Someone who can summon spirits. A remarkable story of self acceptance, identity and first love. The New York Times best selling Cemetery Boys by Aiden Thomas is this weekend's Belshi Band Book Club feature. Tune in tomorrow morning at 10am Eastern for my conversation with the author Aiden Thomas on the huge success of the fantasy genre and the power of queer centered literature for young adults. That's tonight's last word. Hey everybody, Conan o' Brien here with an ad about my podcast, Conan o' Brien needs a friend. I've had so many fantastic conversations with people I truly admire. People like Michelle Obama, Bruce Springsteen, Maya Rudolph, Tom Hanks. New episodes are out every Monday and we have a really good time. So subscribe and listen wherever you get your podcasts.