Donald Trump (6:09)

You are going to meet with first responders today.

Lawrence O'Donnell (6:12)

But you pardoned people who assaulted first responders?

Donald Trump (6:15)

No, I pardoned people that were assaulted themselves. They were assaulted by our government. I pardoned J6 people who were assaulted by our government. That's who assaulted and they were treated unfairly. There's never been a group of people in this country, outside of maybe one instance that I can think of, but I won't get into it, that were treated more horribly than the people of J6. So, no, I didn't assault. They didn't assault. They were assaulted. And what I did was a great thing for humanity.

Lawrence O'Donnell (6:50)

Imagine the screaming from reporters if Joe Biden had ever said anything as utterly insane as that. I pardoned people who were assaulted themselves. They didn't assault, they were assaulted. Think about the depth of pathology that allows you to tell a lie like that. In a world where everyone has seen the people who Donald Trump pardoned not being assaulted, but violently assaulting and in many cases, trying to kill police officers, that Donald Trump is telling you that what you just saw did not happen. Donald Trump is telling you that you didn't see what you just saw. The only word for that is madness. That is not audacity. Audacity can be a noble and brave quality. It is far beyond audacity to say that you didn't see what you just saw. To say you didn't see on January 6th on this network and on every network exactly what you did actually see on January 6th, live, when it was happening, we all saw Donald Trump's supporters assaulting police officers. And Donald Trump said yesterday they didn't assault, they were assaulted. And what that must mean then is that they were assaulted by those cruel prosecutors who prosecuted them for doing nothing. Because that's what prosecutors do in Trump world. They prosecute the January 6th attackers for doing nothing. They prosecute Donald Trump for doing nothing. And tonight, Donald Trump has added two more stories in his world of prosecutors prosecuting people for doing nothing. Tonight, Donald Trump pardoned former Illinois Governor Rod Blagojevich, who was convicted unanimously by a jury in Illinois for trying to sell an appointment to the United States Senate after Senator Barack Obama was elected to the presidency. They got Blagojevich on tape committing the crime. And tonight, Donald Trump said it was an honor, an honor to pardon one of the four Illinois governors who have gone to prison. Also tonight, Donald Trump ordered the Justice Department to drop the federal prosecution of New York City Mayor Eric Adams for conspiracy, wire fraud, soliciting illegal foreign campaign contributions from foreign national nationals, and bribery. Mayor Adams has been as friendly to the second coming of Donald Trump as any elected Democrat in the country. Defendant Adams has probably been the most friendly Democrat to Donald Trump because Eric Adams knows, as everyone does, that the way to get anything from Donald Trump is to flatter him. Donald Trump is not ordering the Justice Department to drop the prosecution of Eric Adams because he wants to do Eric Adams a favor. Donald Trump is obviously doing this as another way of saying just how bad and corrupt American prosecutors are because they have once again prosecuted a politician for doing nothing. That's what the President of the United States wants you to think that prosecutors do. And the president of the United States wants you to think that corrupt judges help those prosecutors prosecute innocent people. And as Donald Trump would say, he would put it that prosecutors and judges assault innocent people. They didn't assault, they were assaulted. Leading off our discussion tonight is Democratic Congressman Daniel Goldman of New York. He's a member of the House Judiciary and the House Homeland Security Committees. Also with us, Andrew Weisman, former FBI general counsel and an MSNBC legal analyst. Congressman Goldman, we are at a crossroads here, legally, for Donald Trump. Restraining orders keep flying from federal judges in Rhode Island, New York, around the country, and Donald Trump saying that, of course, all of these judges are wrong. And one judge saying the Trump administration hasn't even complied with the order he's already issued.

Daniel Goldman (12:03)

Yeah, we're really heading toward a constitutional crisis here If Donald Trump, J.D. vance, and the others in the MAGA world continue down this path. Yes. The notion that judges in our constitutional system of checks and balances as a co equal branch are the ones to ensure that the laws are enforced properly is not a new thought yet. What is new is this notion that if the executive branch decides something, it is by definition, lawful. That's what they're saying. And if you have the people making these decisions also determining whether they are lawful and proper and appropriate, that is what's called authoritarianism. That is total fascism, where you just have no separation of powers, you have no checks and balances. And at some point, we're going to get to a situation where Trump administration officials are going to be called into court and are going to be asked to show cause why they should not be sent to jail for contempt of court. And at that point, what are the Trump administration officials going to do?

Lawrence O'Donnell (13:23)

Andrew? Donald Trump saying that the January 6th attackers were attacked. They were attacked. This is just the most insane, demented version of a Trumpist comment that I've ever heard.

Andrew Weissmann (13:38)

Well, you have a convicted criminal as the president, and so he is running once again, as sort of like the institution of our laws is something not to be followed, which is remarkable for the head of our system of government. Just, it flies in the face of something just so that everyone's clear. Almost all of the people that he pardoned had either gone to trial or pleaded guilty, and all of them had faced sentencing by judges. Those judges in D.C. if they thought these people were innocent, would have dismissed the charges. Juries would not have convicted, they wouldn't have pleaded guilty. And the judges there are appointed by Democrats, Republicans, including Donald Trump. And then one quick thing about Eric Adams, to show just how corrupt Trump and the Department of Justice are being, they didn't dismiss the Eric Adams case in order to be dismissed outright. They said it should be dismissed without prejudice. And that's because they want to see Eric Adams and how he enforces the Trump immigration rules here in New York. So this is a sort of Damocles hanging over the sitting mayor of New York saying, we're going to dismiss the charges without prejudice, and then we're going to watch you and see what you do without prejudice.

Lawrence O'Donnell (15:08)

Meaning they can bring the charges back up.

Andrew Weissmann (15:10)

Exactly. So this is, if you want to see what a sort of extortion scheme is, that is what's going on in New York.

Lawrence O'Donnell (15:18)

Let me stay on this for one second. They're going to have to go into a federal courtroom here in New York and say to a judge, we want to dismiss this. How's that session going to go?

Andrew Weissmann (15:29)

So, by the way, Trump 1.0 did the same thing in connection with one of the Mueller cases. And there the law is that if the government is bringing the case, they have enormous discretion to say, we don't want to bring the case. The only slight room there is is in the Mueller situation. The defendant there had pleaded guilty, so there was very little left other than sentencing here. The case has not gone to tr. The court doing this. The court doesn't have a lot of discretion. I think the best argument the court would have is, wait a second. You've said it's without prejudice. And I see here that one of the things you're looking to do is see how he does in enforcing what you want him to do. I mean, that reads like an extortion scheme, so the judge couldn't push back a little bit. But the law here is really favorable to the government. But just to be clear, that doesn't mean that it is good policy. And that isn't a form of, I mean, to me is it is basically, you know, extorting a elected official to do exactly what the Trump administration wants. And the penalty if he doesn't do it is those charges can be reinstated.

Lawrence O'Donnell (16:47)

Carson Goldman, when you wake up this Monday morning, as opposed to last Monday morning. How do you decide what is the thing you have to fight against the most today? How do you pick that and what is it today?

Daniel Goldman (17:06)

Well, Lawrence, this is a very important question you ask because there's so much coming at everybody and it's moving very quickly. And what we need to figure out is how to distill what is actually dangerous and, and what is a distraction. A lot of what Donald Trump does and says, whether it's related to Greenland or the Gulf of America or plastic straws, is a distraction from what he's really trying to do. And the most urgent situation right now is his efforts to both eliminate all forms of accountability in the executive branch, paving the way for Tulsi Gabbard and Kash Patel to execute his authoritarian desires. And what Elon Musk is doing without any accountability, without any oversight, and without any knowledge of really anyone else. That's why these courts are entering these temporary injunctions, because they just want to keep the status quo so they can actually figure out what's going on, because no one knows. But what we do know is that payments are being stopped, programs are being canceled, and that the executive branch is making decisions as to where money comes Congress appropriated should go, which is outright lawless. So I think those two things right now are the ones that I'm focused on the most because I think they pose the most danger to the very foundation of our government.

Lawrence O'Donnell (18:42)

Congressman Dan Goldman and Andrew Weissman, thank you both for starting off our coverage tonight. You're welcome. Thank you. And coming up, our next guest is trying to keep Elon Musk out of the United States Treasury. That's next.

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Lawrence O'Donnell (19:11)

USAA.

Jen Psaki (19:14)

It's President Trump's first 100 days, and MSNBC's Alex Wagner will be covering it all from the front lines.

Alex Wagner (19:21)

What issue matters to you the most?

Jen Psaki (19:23)

Join her as she travels the country to talk to the people at the center of the President's policies and promises.

Alex Wagner (19:29)

Do you think now that he's pardoned everybody, he can count on this group of people again?

Jen Psaki (19:33)

Search for Trumpland with Alex Wagner wherever you're listening and follow. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts to listen ad free. Stay up to date on the biggest issues of the day with the MSNBC Daily Newsletter. Each morning you'll get analysis by Experts you trust. Video highlights from your favorite shows.

Alex Wagner (19:54)

I do think it's worth being very.

Lawrence O'Donnell (19:56)

Clear eyed, very realistic about what's going on here.

Jen Psaki (19:59)

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Lawrence O'Donnell (20:17)

Why does Elon Musk and his minions need access.

Dr. Atul Gawande (20:22)

To the names, Social Security numbers, addresses, birth dates and bank account information of millions of Americans? Why does he need that information?

Lawrence O'Donnell (20:38)

What are they doing with it? Before she was elected to Congress, halfway through the first Trump presidency, Haley Stevens worked in the Treasury Department as a political appointee during the Obama administration. Last week, Representative Stevens introduced a bill, a new bill called the Taxpayer Data Protection Act.

Alex Wagner (21:00)

These headlines to the American people are alarming. They are absolutely alarming. The news writes them. But the headline is that Musk has your data, that Musk has control of the systems as a Treasury appointee. That is unfathomable. That is totally unbelievable and wrong. So our Taxpayer Data Protection act will seek to make sure that the payment systems don't have reckless interference, that those who have access to them can't just be a special appointee, a political appointee. As you know how we schedule the appointees. No, it needs to be overseen by someone who has the top security clearance, who has the credentials, who doesn't have the conflict of interest. The Taxpayer Data Protection act will stand up to these questions and these concerning behaviors of Elon Musk.

Lawrence O'Donnell (22:01)

Joining us now is Democratic Representative Haley Stevens of Michigan. Thank you very much for joining us tonight. And I have to say, the most extreme outrage I've encountered about what Elon Musk was trying to do at the treasury has all been from people who have worked at the treasury like you.

Alex Wagner (22:20)

You got that right, Lawrence. I'll tell you, I've been talking with former colleagues and appointees and we are aghast. It is truly unfathomable. I'll tell you, when I entered into the halls of treasury shortly after President Obama took office, during a time of true economic crisis, in fact, Bush appointees had stayed on board to kind of help us carry the water through during a really tough time. It was great bipartisan action. No one ever thought about going into the Bureau of Fiscal Service to get access to confidential and private information for God knows what. This is really serious. It's been alarming to the people of Michigan. President Obama, his team at treasury stood up in a tough moment, save General motors and Chrysler, 200,000 Michigan jobs. I was a proud person on that team to work on that action. But this is just a disgrace. And frankly, Lawrence, it's a disgrace. I have to even introduce this bill. We should be talking about costs. I mean, we had eggs stolen, $40,000 worth of eggs. Literally, people in southeast Michigan right now are going to the grocery store and there aren't eggs. And the cdc and of course, what they're monitoring with the bird flu, you know, that can't even be done right now, worsening just one little cost crisis that we have with eggs, let alone what we're facing on housing and the like. And so let's get serious here. Let's do something that really matters to the American people, that will deliver for them, not these types of games.

Lawrence O'Donnell (23:59)

Among those young assistants that Elon Musk has following around, if there were an Edward Snowden among them in the treasury, what could that mean to the American people?

Alex Wagner (24:12)

That is the question, and it is beyond dangerous. As a matter of fact, we've seen this type of espionage type of behavior during a time when Nixon was president, when they were getting access to IRS records. This also has to do with our $6 trillion payment system. We need to have these guardrails. We need to have the right cybersecurity, have the right credentials. There's not even a question being answered right now, Lawrence, on conflicts of interest. I don't even know who these guys are that are working with Musk. They're right out of college and they're going into our payment system. It's not right, and it is concerning. And if you did have a Snowden, what's to say that Russia or the Chinese Communist Party wouldn't get access to these records? What type of cybersecurity is on their phones? What devices are they bringing in there? This is serious stuff. And we do know we've had cyber attacks from adversaries. I don't trust them. I want to get this bill done. Lots of my colleagues have joined on. We should put this guardrail into place and we should roll up our sleeves and get serious about the cost crisis, not these types of flagrant mismanagement actions that are spooking the American people.

Lawrence O'Donnell (25:34)

Michigan Congresswoman Haley Stevens, thank you very much for joining us tonight. Thank you. Coming up, why would Elon Musk and Donald Trump lie about the United States Agency for International Development? I mean, think about it. Why won't they tell the truth? The answer is because they haven't actually found anything that USAID does that is wrong. Or objectionable. That's why they're lying about it. That's next.

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Jen Psaki (26:24)

It's President Trump's first 100 days, and MSNBC's Alex Wagner will be covering it all from the front lines.

Alex Wagner (26:32)

What issue matters to you the most?

Jen Psaki (26:34)

Join her as she travels the country to talk to the people at the center of the president's policies and promises.

Alex Wagner (26:40)

Do you think now that he's pardoned everybody he can count on this group of people again?

Jen Psaki (26:44)

Search for Trumpland with Alex Wagner wherever you're listening and follow subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts to listen ad free. The first 100 days bills are passed, executive orders are signed and presidencies are defined. And for Donald Trump's first 100 days, Rachel Maddow is on MSNBC five nights a week.

Lawrence O'Donnell (27:07)

Now is the time, so we're gonna.

Jen Psaki (27:08)

Do it, providing her unique insight and analysis during this critical time.

Lawrence O'Donnell (27:12)

How do we strategically align ourselves to this moment of information, this moment of transition in our country?

Jen Psaki (27:18)

The Rachel Maddow show, weeknights at 9pm Eastern on MSNBC.

Lawrence O'Donnell (27:28)

When the richest person in the world decided to do as much damage as he possibly could to the poorest children in the world, children without shoes, children without food, and to the poorest parents in the world, why did he lie about it? Why did Elon Musk and Donald Trump both decide to lie about what the United States Agency for International Development actually does? If you know what USAID actually does and you still want to destroy it, you know you're going to have to lie about it. And that is what the richest person in the world has been gleefully doing. Elon Musk accused Ben Stiller, Sean Penn and other movie stars of being paid millions of dollars each by USAID for traveling to Ukraine. If USAID was really doing bad things, couldn't Elon Musk have found one of those bad things and honestly presented it? Ben Stiller and Sean Penn have, of course, denied ever taking a penny from USAID for traveling to Ukraine. You saw Sean Penn on this program when he returned from Ukraine. We showed you video of Sean Penn having to hike out of Ukraine and across the border safely into Poland. That was a very low budget trip that Sean Penn took to Ukraine, all at his own expense. Sean Penn has been traveling the globe for decades doing humanitarian work from Haiti to Ukraine, all at his own expense, something Elon Musk has never done. Not one day of humanitarian work. Sean Penn told me after his trip to Ukraine that he continues to do acting work in part just to be able to pay for his humanitarian trips around the world. You don't have to work hard to figure out that USAID did not pay Sean Penn. But if you're trying to destroy USAID and you don't have any factual basis for doing it, then if you're Elon Musk and Donald Trump, you will apparently tell any lie to try to kill USAID, including the $100 million condom lie. It started off as the $50 million condom lie, and when it was proved to be a complete lie, Donald Trump's response was that he's just going to double it. Double the lie to the $100 million condom line. $100 million that Donald Trump accused USAID of spending on condoms to be sent to Gaza. The truth? USAID spent zero dollars and zero pennies sending condoms to Gaza. Zero. Elon Musk complained about $70,000 spent in supporting a play performed in Dublin at the American ambassador's residence. The problem is, as with almost anything involving the American ambassador in Ireland, that was actually paid for by the State Department, not usaid. That's true of a few other items on the very short list of complaints that Elon Musk and Donald Trump have about usaid. The thing they're complaining about was actually paid for by the State Department, not usaid. And no one is trying to close down the State Department because of that play in Dublin. No one's trying to close down the State Department because of those expenditures that the State Department, which Elon Musk and Donald Trump hate. Those expenditures, they don't even accurately describe them. But no one's trying to shut down the State Department for those expenditures. Elon Musk and Donald Trump's complaints about USAID amount to less than 1% of the USAID budget. Less than 1% of the budget. According to that new rule for closing down a federal agency, the State Department should be closed down because of that plague that they helped pay for in Dublin, according to the Musk, Trump waste, fraud and abuse standard. If the Department of Defense is spending less than 1% of its budget in objectionable ways, then the entire Department of Defense should be closed down. The Pentagon should be emptied. The Defense Department should be put in a wood chipper. As Elon Musk described what he was doing to usaid. The United States army should just be sent home and fired. Same with the United States Navy, the Air Force, the Marines. But we know it will never matter how much waste, fraud and abuse might be revealed in the Defense Department. Donald Trump will always try to keep spending more money for defense and sending more and more money to the Pentagon. The Defense department budget is $841 billion. The USAID budget is $40 billion. Objective estimates, outside estimates of waste in the Defense Department budget are at least $60 billion, $20 billion more than the entire USAID budget. But no one at the Defense Department has been told to stay home. USAID saves lives. USAID is the only international branch of the American government whose day to day mission every year, every day of the year is saving lives through the distribution of life, saving medicine and in regions of famine, with the distribution of food. That kind of famine aid has been saving lives every day in Sudan. Not anymore. Today, the Office of the Inspector General at USAID issued a report saying shipments of in kind food assistance have been delayed around the world. This uncertainty put more than $489 million of food assistance at ports, in transit and in warehouses at risk of spoilage, unanticipated storage needs and diversion. Diversion can include stealing that food. And so Elon Musk has created his own form of waste, fraud and abuse at USAID by wasting $489 million of food while children are starving who need that food. The Inspector General's report includes this new information. USAID staff have reported that the counterterrorism vetting units supporting humanitarian assistance program programming has in recent days been told not to report to work. USAID has staff dedicated to making sure that food and medicine and valuable humanitarian assistance gets to the right people in the right place, with extra concentration in making sure that it doesn't end up in the hands of terrorists. And thanks to Elon Musk and Donald Trump, no one is doing that counterterrorism vetting now. And children who could have lived are starving to death. Marie Antoinette was beheaded in the French Revolution because of the attitude expressed in the most repeated story about her. When told that the poor people of France were starving because they had no bread, she said, let them eat cake. 232 years later, Elon Musk says, let them eat nothing. Coming up, we'll be joined by former USAID official Dr. Atul Gawande. That's next. Turning our discussion now is Dr. Atul Gawande, former assistant Administrator for Global Health at the United States Agency for International Development. He's a practicing physician and and a professor at Harvard Medical School and the Harvard School of Public Health. Doctor, what are the most important things we should know about USAID that the agency is now not capable of doing.

Dr. Atul Gawande (35:52)

Almost everything it's incapable of managing? Health programs ranging from ending HIV around the world. There are 20 million people who rely on HIV medications to stay alive, global malaria programs, the eradication of polio. Then there is all of the food assistance that you referred to. The reality is that there's nothing about the massive loss of life that is at risk here and already beginning to show itself. 1.6 million people in Sudan who depended on water pumps that USAID run runs. And USAID has lost the people and the payment systems to keep those water pumps going. So they were shut down over the weekend for 1.6 million people in Darfur, Sudan. And that's just one of many, many examples.

Lawrence O'Donnell (36:53)

What was it like for you going to work there every day when you worked at this agency? Could you feel the pressure of literally having to feed people and provide water around the world and try to save them from dise that you could deliver the medicine to save them from?

Dr. Atul Gawande (37:13)

Yes, it was a role where I had the opportunity for unimaginable scale. The Global Health Bureau has a budget about $8 billion, which sounds like a lot, but it's about half the budget of the hospital where I do surgery. And that budget was able to reach hundreds of millions of people with programs that range from maternal child health to HIV like I discussed. And the reach was enabled by 1600 staff in embassies around the world with a hands on capability. The Defense Department doesn't have to bring troops to the places that we work because you have civilians who are able to do it and at lower cost than the Defense Department. The level of waste going on right now, you put your finger on it, it's become incredible. It's the combination of the loss of life and the levels of waste accumulating that we're seeing.

Lawrence O'Donnell (38:17)

So I mean, people, children are dying now. If this were reversed tomorrow, we would still have killed people by this decision.

Dr. Atul Gawande (38:29)

Yes. It is not a switch that you can just turn on and off. There are thousands and thousands of people who have been laid off that provided the capability around the world. You alluded to the hundreds of millions of dollars of food rotting in warehouses and in ships and so on. There's $8 billion in that OIG report, the inspector general report you flagged, that simply is not being tracked anymore and has to be accounted for and brought back online. So it's a we're in a. It's going to take a while to recover if we even have a chance.

Lawrence O'Donnell (39:13)

Dr. Atul Gawande, thank you very much for joining us tonight and thank you for the work that you have done and continue to do. Thank you.

Dr. Atul Gawande (39:19)

Thank you.

Lawrence O'Donnell (39:22)

Dr. Atul Gawande gets tonight's last word.

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