Chris Hayes | Frenemy At The Gates

Summary

The Late Show Pod Show with Stephen Colbert

Episode: Chris Hayes | Frenemy At The Gates
Date: January 8, 2026

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Episode Overview

This dynamic episode of The Late Show Pod Show features renowned journalist and author Chris Hayes as he joins Stephen Colbert to dissect a week of alarming political developments, focusing on escalating federal-state tensions, controversial federal actions in Minneapolis, and the U.S. administration’s unpredictable foreign policy. The conversation balances sharp, satirical commentary on current events with a thoughtful discussion of Hayes’s latest book, The Sirens Call, dissecting how tech giants manipulate public attention.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Tragic Federal Action in Minneapolis

[01:45–04:00; 14:59–21:55]

• Colbert opens the show referencing the shocking killing of 37-year-old Renee Goode by an ICE agent in Minneapolis, an incident immediately politicized by federal officials.

  • Governor Walz’s reaction: Both Governor and Mayor call out the federal narrative as “bull”, refusing further federal intervention.
  • Chris Hayes describes the incident, outlining the chronology: Goode was shot while trying to drive away during a sudden ICE raid, with footage indicating a disturbing use of force.
  • Hayes highlights the tragic aftermath: "Her partner was in the car, as was her dog. And stuffed into the front seat were a number of stuffed animals that belonged to her four year old daughter who has now lost her mother." (15:36)

• Political context:

  • Hayes frames this as the culmination of a federal pattern—deploying force against “liberal” cities as political theater to sow fear and division:

    “What we're seeing is the consequences of governance designed to generate fear, headlines and conflict.” (02:21)

  • He underscores a repeated pattern of federal law enforcement overreach and dishonesty in similar cases across the country:

    "They have consistently on the record, been caught flat out lying about the circumstances of their interactions with the public in courts, in venue after venue after venue.” (18:58)

• Jurisdictional complexity:

  • Addressing whether the state can investigate or prosecute a federal officer, Hayes brings up the near-impossibility:

    “There is a very high bar for state officials to prosecute federal officials.” (20:44) “It has happened once before... Ruby Ridge...” (21:06)

2. Satirical Recap of U.S. Foreign Policy and Domestic Politics

[04:00–14:45; 25:05–27:57]

• Trump’s foreign policy absurdities:

  • Colbert lambasts the administration’s obsession with Greenland:

    “Should the United States invade Greenland? … It’s not appropriate. We’re talking about attacking an ally, not wearing jeans to a wedding.” (03:24)

  • The legal and diplomatic repercussions of such proposals are ridiculed, highlighting the self-contradictory logic:

    “If we attack Greenland, we'll have to fight all of NATO. And you know who else is in NATO? The United States.” (03:08)

• Theft and sale of Venezuelan oil:

  • Colbert boldly skewers the legally dubious announcement that the U.S. will sell seized Venezuelan oil:

    “That's the most illegal sounding thing I have ever heard. The only way this could sound more illegal is if the Trump parked the oil tankers in a school zone.” (08:25)

  • The sequence of U.S. military actions—seizing oil tankers, skirmishes with Russia—highlights global risk escalation and farcical international law violations.

• Shift to Venezuela as “police action”:

  • Hayes breaks down the move from law enforcement to war and back as “pretextual”:

    “Everything they say and do is pretextual and it's exhausting. You cannot credit any of the justifications ever given for anything as good faith, actual reason justifications.” (27:09)

• Trump’s domestic policy maneuvers:

  • From slashed aid to blue states to performatively threatening impeachment, guest and host detail the administration’s use of governance as political vengeance.

3. Discussion on Gun Rights, Federal Overreach, and “Authoritarian Handbooks”

[22:40–25:05]

• Colbert queries the contradiction between pro–Second Amendment rhetoric and federal heavy-handedness in cities:

  • “Isn't protecting ourselves against that [federal tyranny] the argument that second Amendment people have made for so many years…?” (22:40)

  • Hayes calls out the hypocrisy:

    “Ruby Ridge... was a cause celebré of gun rights activists and right wingers... Now they want to call her [Renee Goode] a domestic terrorist… to my mind, she looks like a peaceful protester and she's dead.” (23:49–25:05)

4. Chris Hayes’ Book: The Sirens Call & Our Era of Attention Extraction

[27:57–31:36]

• Colbert shifts to Hayes’s new book, discussing the mass exploitation of individual attention by tech corporations:
  • Hayes defines our cultural “alienation”—the feeling that our “control [over our attention] has been extracted from us and is now outside our control.” (29:05)
  • He references “AI slop” as the perfect metaphor for algorithm-driven, impersonal tech content driving this feeling.

  • “It's pre-digested slop... What you're seeing... is a desire for the real and for the human and for the embodied and for the attended to.” (29:51)

  • Discussion includes practical resistance—like “bricks” that limit phone distractions—framing these as evidence of rising rebellion against tech overreach.
  • Hayes relates this rebellion to the myth of Odysseus resisting the sirens, tying the metaphor back to his book’s thesis:

    “That moment of volition, that moment of autonomy, that moment of reasserting your own will in the face of things that want to take it from you, that's the genesis of the book...” (30:59)

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• Colbert, on absurdity of invading Greenland:

  “We're talking about attacking an ally, not wearing jeans to a wedding.” (03:19)

• Hayes, on a pattern of government dishonesty:

  “They have consistently on the record, been caught flat out lying about the circumstances of their interactions with the public…” (18:58)

• Colbert, on U.S. selling seized Venezuelan oil:

  “That's what pirates do. Though it does explain why he says the country's name like this. Venezueller. Avast.” (08:09)

• Hayes, on erosion of trust in government justifications:

  “Everything they say and do is pretextual and it's exhausting.” (27:09)

• Hayes, on attention extraction by tech:

  “There’s this growing sense of alienation... that our attention... has been extracted from us... and that alienation is manifesting itself in a kind of rebellious spirit.” (29:05)

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Timeline of Important Segments

• [01:45–04:00]: Colbert and Hayes react to the Minneapolis tragedy and escalating fear tactics.
• [15:36–21:55]: In-depth breakdown of Renee Goode’s shooting, police accountability, and legal complexity.
• [22:40–25:05]: Discussion on federal overreach, gun rights, and conflicting political narratives.
• [25:05–27:57]: Analysis of U.S. intervention and doublespeak in Venezuela.
• [27:57–31:36]: In-depth on The Sirens Call: modern tech, alienation, and cultural rebellion.

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Conclusion

This episode combines razor-sharp satire and grave analysis, providing both a critical accounting of recent political events and a wider cultural perspective on collective attention and agency. Chris Hayes’s presence brings rigor and empathy as he names and contextualizes harm, while Colbert underscores the absurdity with comedic brilliance. Whether unpacking authoritarian playbooks, lamenting federal abuses, or imagining resistance to tech hegemony, the conversation is both sobering and empowering, encouraging listeners to seek truth, demand accountability, and reclaim autonomy.

Recommended for listeners seeking:

• Insightful political critique and news breakdowns
• Nuanced discussion of federalism, authoritarianism, and media
• Reflections on technology’s impact on society and personal agency

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Key Takeaway:
"That moment of volition, that moment of autonomy, that moment of reasserting your own will in the face of things that want to take it from you, that’s the genesis of the book... and the genesis of a cultural moment we’re going to see only expand.”
—Chris Hayes (30:59)

Transcript

[Stephen Colbert]

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[Chris Hayes]

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[Stephen Colbert]

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[Stephen Colbert]

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[Stephen Colbert]

Hi everybody. We have a comedy show for you tonight. Now normally we start these shows with the cold open, but sometimes we don't do that. Especially if there's been a shocking tragedy and there's been another. This morning In Minneapolis, a 37 year old woman was shot and killed by an ICE agent in front of her neighbors. Homeland Security Secretary Noem claimed the slain woman committed an act of domestic terrorism and says the agent acted in self defense. The Mayor of Minneapolis watched the videotape of the killing and said that claim is, and I quote, bull. I think Governor Walz expressed it well.

[Chris Hayes]

What we're seeing is the consequences of governance designed to generate fear, headlines and conflict. Donald Trump and his administration may not care much about Minnesota. That's been pretty evident. But we love this state. We won't let them tear us apart. We'll not turn against each other. To Americans, I ask you this. Please stand with Minneapolis from here on. I have a very simple message. We do not need any further help from the federal government. To Donald Trump and Kristi Noem. You've done enough.

[Stephen Colbert]

Welcome to the Late Show. I'm your host, Stephen Colbert. You can feel the energy in this room. It was a beautiful spring like day here in New York. All that global warming is finally paying off. New York buses keep idling. Even the coldest places on the planet are heating up. Like Greenland for some reason and we're not entirely sure why. For some reason, Donald Trump is obsessed with that frozen gravel pile and won't rule out using the military to acquire it. Fun fact. Greenland is a NATO ally because it's part of denmark. And Article 5 of the NATO charter clearly states that an armed attack against one NATO member shall be considered an attack against them all. So if we attack Greenland, we'll have to fight all of NATO. And you know who else is in NATO? The United States. And we don't want to fight them. They're insane. Insane lately. Lately. Yesterday, Speaker Mike Johnson was asked the age old question, should the United States invade Greenland? And he said, no, I don't think that's appropriate. It's not appropriate. We're talking about attacking an ally, not wearing jeans to a wedding. GOP Rep. Don Bacon was asked about it and bacon was crisp. There is no upside to it.

[Chris Hayes]

And we're not going to acquire Greenland. We're NATO allies. We have bases there and we can build on that. So this is one of the silliest.

[Stephen Colbert]

Things I have heard come out of.

[Chris Hayes]

The White House in the last year.

[Stephen Colbert]

That is saying a lot, considering this last year was the first we heard the words FIFA Peace Prize. The biggest. I guess Venezuela doesn't have a soccer team. They do. Oh, well. The biggest criticism of Trump's plan came from famed geopolitical strategist Bjork, who posted, I wish all Greenlanders blessings in their fight for independence. That's right. You do not mess with Bjork. This woman gets dressed by dipping herself in glue and rolling around in a hobby lobby rickrack everywhere. Nothing scares her. Now, it's still possible there's an outside chance we don't invade. This week, in a closed door meeting, Marco Rubio assured lawmakers that recent administration threats against Greenland did not signal an imminent invasion and that the goal is to buy the island from Denmark. That does not sound better. It actually sounds because I don't know if you knew this. People don't buy and sell countries anymore. Apparently our foreign policy is from the 19th century. So is our vaccine schedule. Remember, remember this month? Is it this month? Remember this month is open enrollment for leech care. Trump has also peeved at Scandinavia. Today he rage posted, I single handedly ended eight wars and Norway, a NATO member, foolishly chose not to give me the Nobel Peace Prize. But that doesn't matter. Oh really? Because it kind of sounds like it matters. But yes, Norway. Why didn't you give him the. Imagine how upset he's going to be when he finds out he also didn't get the Nobel Peace Prize. But to prevent international conflict, I hereby award Donald Trump the Nobel Prize. Technically, it is a Barnes and Noble prize. I think it's still got like five bucks on it or something like that. Buy a cake, Pop. Now, there's more news from a country that Trump has already invaded. Because last night Trump announced the US will sell 50 million barrels of Venezuelan oil. I can't believe I'm saying this, but presidents can't just steal and sell stuff that belongs to another country. That's what pirates do. Though it does explain why he says the country's name like this. Venezueller. Avast. Avast. Avast. Venezuela, I come for ye sweet crude. What do you do with a Venezuela. What do you do with a Venezueller? What do you do with a Venezueller? Snatch away a toy. Oh, now, thank you very much. Thank you very much. Trump explained this oil will be sold at its market price and that money will be controlled by me. Good God. That is. That's the most illegal sounding thing I have ever heard. The only way this could sound more illegal is if the Trump parked the oil tankers in a school zone. Trump promises that the petrodollars will be used to benefit the people of Venezuela. So good news, people of Venezuela. Caracas is getting a ballroom. Trump also. Trump also said the oil will be taken by storage ships and brought directly to unloading docks. And then what? Are you going to put the oil on Facebook? Marketplace. Ding dong. Oh, hey, my wife sent me to pick up the 50 million barrels of Venezuelan crude. I got a Honda Hyundai. What do I got here? I got a Hyundai Tucson. So guess I should put the seat down.

[Chris Hayes]

Then.

[Stephen Colbert]

This morning the US military seized two Venezuela linked oil tankers. One of the vessels was captured in the Caribbean. Possibly the Caribbean, we're not sure yet. The other was Captured near Iceland and was flying the Russian flag. Rut Ro, what happen if go war with NATO and Russia at same time? Question mark. And it sent me porn again.

[Chris Hayes]

All right.

[Stephen Colbert]

Now, later. Now, later. The second ship. It's been a rough day. The second ship had been called the Bela 1, and the US considers it stateless. But while being chased by the US Navy, the crew of the tanker painted a Russian flag on its hull. A brilliant idea that could only have come from Captain Wiley Kyotovich. Soon after, a pew. Clink, clink. Soon after, the ship appeared on the registry of Russia ships as the Marinara. That is not going to help bring me the Marinara. Boats set it on course for the USS mozzarella stick at ramming speed. 12 knots. Garlic knots. There you go. Midterms are just around the corner. And with the GOP's razor thin majority, Trump is starting to worry. So yesterday he rallied congressional Republicans at the newly renamed Ruth's Chris Trump's Kennedy Center. Trump had a warning. Trump had a warning about what would happen if the Democrats retake Congress. I'll get impeached. Democrats, I think you just got your new ad. His confidence that he will immediately be impeached does not make it sound like he's not breaking the law. I swear to God, if the police ever turn a black light in my basement, I am so going to jail. Near the end of the speech, there was this weird moment when Trump spotted New York Times photographer Doug Mills.

[Chris Hayes]

These are the ones that take the pictures.

[Stephen Colbert]

Make me look thin for a change, Doug. They're making me look a little bit heavy. I'm not happy about it. Yeah, Doug, stop taking pictures of Trump with the lights on. Rfk Jr. S health department has been making a lot of announcements lately, and today they debuted new dietary guidelines to emphasize red meat and dairy. This change is even dumber than it sounds, as you can see from this graphic. Actually tweeted out by the White House. They literally just flipped the food pyramid. It said, oh, you gotta turn it upside down. It's the only way to get the ketchup out. Let's take a closer look at this thing. Okay, the important foods are at the top. So we should all be eating three to four rotisserie chickens a day with a heaping side trough of ground chuck. You'll want a little more butter than peanut, more shrimp than banana. And at the bottom, for the occasional treat, 12 oats just sprinkled in there. Just 12. Just a hint of fiber to try to tease your colon into action. Move that meat through there, Rfk Jr. S new dietary guidelines also abandoned long standing advice on alcohol. You see, since 1980, the FDA has told Americans to limit themselves to one or two alcohol drinks a day. And I think that's reasonable. I don't ever have more than two daiquiris before I operate a tractor. But Bobby's new guidelines throw all that out. Now, the FDA recommends Americans limit alcohol beverages, but they do not recommend clear limits. When asked for specifics, the FDA offered this advice.

[Chris Hayes]

He drinks a whiskey drink. He drinks a vodka drink.

[Stephen Colbert]

He drinks a lager drink. He drinks a cider drink. Thank you. Thank you, Dr. Wumba. Here's what Medicaid and Medicare Administrator Dr. Oz said when asked about the potential dangers of not recommending a limit on alcohol. Alcohol is a social lubricant that brings people together. Okay? That finding from a new study by doctors James Beam, Jonathan Walker and Elizabeth Limarita. He continued, in the best case scenario, I don't think you should drink alcohol. But it does allow people an excuse to bond and socialize. And there's probably nothing healthier than having a good time with friends in a safe way. Hell yeah. Listen up, you lightweight losers. Dr. Chugalug has spoken. Anything you want to add to that? And there's probably nothing healthier than having a good time with friends in a.

[Chris Hayes]

Safe way with the twins.

[Stephen Colbert]

We got a great show for you tonight.

[Chris Hayes]

Coming up, Chris Haynes.

[Stephen Colbert]

My first guest tonight is a New York Times bestselling author and the host of all in on Ms. Now please welcome back to the Late Show, Chris Hayes. Chris, it's always good to have you on. Enjoyed talking to you every time we've had been able to the last 10 years. You're a great explainer. Explain something to me. This morning In Minneapolis, a 37 year old woman was killed by an ICE agent shot in her car as she was driving away. Details are still coming out. Can you walk me and the audience through what we know happened at this point?

[Chris Hayes]

So the context is that the President has sort of declared one of his occasional occupations of an American city that he feels is excessively liberal. He's done this with Los Angeles, he's done it with Chicago. He's done it with Portland. There was a surge of immigration enforcement directed to Minnesota this morning. There was a post by DHS about Good morning Minnesota. And these agents were attempting some sort of ICE raid, not dissimilar from many we've seen across the country. The woman in question, her name is Renee Goode. She's 37 years old. She was in a car parked on the street in a residential neighborhood about a mile from where George Floyd was murdered. And she was in the car. Several ICE agents came up to her. It's unclear from the two videos that I've watched numerous times whether they said to get out of here or get out of the car. It sounds like they said get out of the car. An ICE agent approached the car. She appears on both angles of the video to be first backing up and then trying to basically drive her car away from these armed men who are coming to accost her. One of the ICE agents is positioned himself right at the front corner of the car. He proceeds to fire four shots. Three or four shots from extremely close range into the driver's side of the car. The first shot from head on and the next three with him at a 90 degree angle. You could see it in the freeze frame. The gun is like this and the open window is like this. So he is out of the way of the car. She loses consciousness and the car heads into a lamppost where it hits. Reports indicate that she was without medical attention for between 10 to 15 minutes. There's reporting on the scene that indicate that a doctor attempted to give CPR and was stopped. Her partner was in the car, as was her dog. And stuffed into the front seat were a number of stuffed animals that belonged to her four year old daughter who has now lost her mother.

[Stephen Colbert]

In a press conference, Governor Wallace pointed out that this was. This was predictable, that someone was going to get killed from this use of excessive force in American cities. For reasons that are extremely dubious by the Trump administration. He said we do not need any help from the federal government, and called in Minnesota National Guard. When was the last time a US State had to protect itself from the federal government?

[Chris Hayes]

I mean, this has been one of the grimmest realities of this entire year, which is that the President of the United States clearly views himself not as the president of the entire nation, which is the position he occupies. It's the only position, along with vice president, that is elected by the entire nation and represents every person of this country as an equal. Right. You're the representative. He views himself as the president of the country of maga. And he views any municipality, locality, state or territory that is not within his political coalition as essentially an enemy that he needs to occupy, subdue, punish and discipline.

[Stephen Colbert]

Just this week, they cut off $10 billion in aid to strictly blue states, five blue states, because evidently poor children have to be denied food for him to get his way.

[Chris Hayes]

Yes. And so unfortunately, we've seen this now and to the point that the governor made. This is, I think, the ninth ICE shooting this year. ICE shot a woman multiple times in Chicago. And I think this is actually very important context. During their Operation Midway Blitz, I believe it was actually CBP or ice. DHS officials shot a woman in a car multiple times. They claim that she shot them. They apprehended, arrested her and were going to press charges. Except guess what, they had to drop the charges because they were lying about what happened in the incident. So there is now a clear record. It's happened in Los Angeles, it's happened in Chicago, it's happened in Washington, D.C. where they failed to secure a conviction against the guy that chucked the subway sandwich at the DHS official from one foot away. That they have consistently on the record, been caught flat out lying about the circumstances of their interactions with the public in courts, in venue after venue after venue.

[Stephen Colbert]

Secretary Noem, very soon after, something like two hours after the event, if not less than that, said this woman had done an act of domestic terrorism and this was self defense. So obviously that rush to judgment right there, there's. You can't trust DHS to investigate themselves. The Justice Department can't be trusted. The Labor Department can't be trusted. Like all. Can the state effectively investigate this killing to find out whether it was justified in any way, given that this ICE agent is a federal officer? Because that seems like that would be the only way you'd actually find out what happened is if the state investigated and the state brought charges if they were warranted of manslaughter.

[Chris Hayes]

We are in incredibly fraught jurisdictional territory here. All law enforcement officers have, under US Jurisprudence, what's called qualified immunity, which makes it difficult for them to face accountability either civilly or criminally for the use of force. There is a very high bar for state officials to prosecute federal officials.

[Stephen Colbert]

Has it happened before?

[Chris Hayes]

It has happened once before, actually. Interestingly, the botched raid on Ruby Ridge that happened under the Clinton administration. The FBI sniper who fired the shot that killed one of the individuals at Ruby Ridge was subsequently prosecuted by a conservative Idaho prosecutor. And actually a court of appeals allowed that prosecution to go forward, although it was subsequently dropped when a new prosecutor was elected. Point being, it's a very high bar. But independent of that, what you've heard from Mayor Jacob Fry, Governor Waltz, from Attorney General Keith Ellison and the Minnesota Police chief is we were going to investigate this criminal matter. And I think there's going to be tremendous pressure for some sort of judicial accountability for what looks to many people who have viewed the videotape as a cold blooded murder.

[Stephen Colbert]

We have to take a quick break. We're right back with more Chris Hayes, everybody.

[Chris Hayes]

Hi. This is Jill Schlesinger, CBS News business analyst, certified financial planner and the host of the Jill on Money and Money Watch podcasts. With the new year upon us, there's no better time to take take control of your finances. And the Jill on Money podcast is here to help. It's your questions that make it possible for me to provide unconventional and hopefully entertaining insights on your money and on your life. Follow and listen to Jill on Money and Money Watch wherever you get your podcasts.

[Stephen Colbert]

We're back with Chris Hayes. Governor Walz alludes to this in his statement when he first came out and spoke today that all of this is the result of a policy of intimidation and using fear to try to cow his what he perceives as political enemies or those who don't support him. That federal government, the power of the federal government instilling fear in the people, fear of violence. I'm in no way condoning this, but isn't protecting ourselves against that the argument that second Amendment people have made for so many years about why we're supposed to have guns? Yes, I'm not telling anybody to gun, no, I'm not saying anybody to use any violence against the government. But that seems to be an odd conflict between those who might support the president and his support of the Second Amendment and the fact that this is exactly what they described in their fantasies and why the Supreme Court said that personal protection is what is granted by the Second Amendment.

[Chris Hayes]

I mean, first, I would agree with you that more guns in this situation would make things only worse. Just to be clear. But it is interesting that the precedent I just cited, which is Ruby Ridge, right, was a cause celebr of gun rights activists and right wingers and conservatives precisely because at the time they viewed that as government overreach and that the sort of, you know, right we have as citizens to protect against that tyranny and incursion. And you know, I had to sort of chuckle today when I was reading into the news. There was a headline from yesterday that just came across my feed that the president of the United States was threatening the Iranian government with military action if they killed peaceful protesters. And I think we all understand that like killing peaceful protesters is a sign of something horribly wrong with a government. This is a 37 year old mother with her partner and dog in the car sitting in a street and recording what ICE is doing. Now they want to call her a domestic terrorist. And everyone can decide whether the 37 year old moment with her kids, stuffies shoved in the dashboard of her car as a domestic terrorist drawn. But to my mind, she looks like a peaceful protester and she's dead.

[Stephen Colbert]

Now, in another play from the authoritarian handbook, let's talk about the war or however should be characterized. Venezuela. Well, military action. Yeah, 150 planes, I think something like 80 people on the ground killed. No Americans, no American service members. Our government can always count on the military to be the best in the world. You know, that's the simple part of it. Ask the military to do something very hard, they will do it for you.

[Chris Hayes]

Incredibly impressive operation.

[Stephen Colbert]

Okay, so you've been tracking the escalation, you know, because there was carrier groups that were blowing up boats that were alleged to have drugs in them. You follow that escalation? Obviously it was building to something. What was your reaction when you heard that Maduro had been captured?

[Chris Hayes]

Well, I was shocked, but not surprised and appalled. And I think, I mean, part of what's so insane about this buildup that you just mentioned. Just to take a step back, let's all remember how this came. They started blowing up ships with human beings on them. And they said drugs, which maybe there were, maybe there weren't. We can't confirm it because they said they were engaged in a war, a military war with a narco terrorist gang called Trend Aragua that was associated with the Venezuelan government. So something that had been law enforcement for centuries. The interdiction of contraband, you know, Coast Guard does that. We do that all the time. They converted from law enforcement to a war, clearly as a means of pressure for regime change. When it came time to do the regime change, when they sent U.S. forces to invade a country, what else can you call it? They then turned around and be like, no, this is law enforcement. Wait a second, what you were blowing up. The ships are law enforcement, but that's war that you were blowing up. Now you're invading the country and now you want to tell us it's law enforcement?

[Stephen Colbert]

Yeah. So it's a police action, like Korea. It's not a war, it's just a police action. And that's only lasted 80 years.

[Chris Hayes]

And the reason I bring it up is like at some point it's like, what's the point of playing Gotcha on this? But the point to make, I think, is that everything they say and do is pretextual and it's exhausting. You cannot credit any of the justifications ever given for anything as good faith, actual reason justifications. And I say that because there are conservatives, Republicans, all sorts of people I disagree with, who I've dealt with in public life and debated and had on my show, who do make good faith arguments, who aren't just slinging pretext, who aren't just totally mired in this kind of gaslighting. Those people exist. The people running the country are only operating on one principle and one principle only. What can we get away with? And everything else is backfilled.

[Stephen Colbert]

We're gonna take another break here, but right back with more Chris Hayes, everybody. We're back with the author of the Sirens Call. Chris Hayes. I want to talk about your book the Sirens Call, the New York Times bestseller. It tackles a modern problem that I suffer from of tech companies extracting our attention for profit. You know, the old saw of like, if you don't know what they're selling, they're selling you.

[Chris Hayes]

Yes.

[Stephen Colbert]

Okay. I would love to have the attention span to read a book of this length. It's pretty slim.

[Chris Hayes]

I just want to say.

[Stephen Colbert]

It's pretty slim. Okay. It's longer than a TikTok. You spoke about this. You said we're feeling a kind of rebellion last year, that breaking out against the dead end feeling that we have. Do you still feel that way?

[Chris Hayes]

Yes, I mean, I think.

[Stephen Colbert]

What gives you that evidence? What gives you that feeling?

[Chris Hayes]

I think everywhere you look in the culture, there's this growing sense of alienation, which I think is a really correct term for the feeling we have that something that should be internal to us, that we control our attention, has been extracted from us and is now outside our control. And that alienation is manifesting itself in a kind of rebellious spirit against the kind of tech overlords. And particularly I think this term that has been coined, I think is so effective, AI slop. Sure. Perfectly captures how people feel like that we're reduced to just pigs while they just like throw the buckets at us for us to like eat up.

[Stephen Colbert]

And the Internet through AI. The Internet feeds on the Internet. And so much of what you're seeing has already been pre digested.

[Chris Hayes]

Yes, it's pre digested slop. And I think what's what you're seeing, and I think again, it's early days of this and I think it will be a kind of epochal cultural shift when it really crescendos is a desire for the real and for the human and for the embodied and for the attended to. And everywhere you look in the culture, you're feeling these emanations of it even as we sit and we feel addicted to our phones and we fight the impulse. There's only so long you can sell a product to people or give people a product that they have come to hate.

[Stephen Colbert]

Do you have a brick? I don't have a brick, but do you know what I'm talking about? You can buy a product now that'll keep you from the part of your phone that they're harvesting your attention on. I know a ton of people have them. Which is more evidence, I think, that people are waking up to the idea that we need help to fight against these people who are extracting our brains.

[Chris Hayes]

The title of the book.

[Stephen Colbert]

You mean the siren's call?

[Chris Hayes]

The title of the book. And the first moment of the book is the story of Odysseus about to set sail past the sirens who want to lure him with this beguiling song to his death and tying himself to the mast to resist the urges. And that moment of volition, that moment of autonomy, that moment of reasserting your own will in the face of things that want to take it from you, that's the genesis of the book. It's the genesis, I think, of that, of the product, the brick, and I think the genesis of a cultural moment and a political moment that we're going to see only expand day after day, month after month, year after year.

[Stephen Colbert]

Chris, thanks so much for being here.

[Chris Hayes]

Thank you.

[Stephen Colbert]

His book the sirens Call is out now in paperback. It's Chris Hayes, everybody. Thank you for listening to the late show pod show with Stephen Colbert. Just one more thing. If you want to see more of me, come to The Late Show YouTube channel for more clips and exclusives.

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Pluto TV has thousands of free movies.

[Chris Hayes]

And TV shows like Joe Dirt, Pixels, Survivor, and spongebob squarepants free. You're welcome, Pluto TV stream now pay never Sunday.

[Stephen Colbert]

The NFL postseason is on cbs.

[Chris Hayes]

It's win or go home in the.

[Stephen Colbert]

Wild card round and you can count on a duel between two of the.

[Chris Hayes]

League'S most dynamic QBs when Josh Allen.

[Stephen Colbert]

And the Bills go on the road to face Trevor Lawrence and the Jaguars kiss him goodbye. Touchdown. It all begins at noon eastern with the NFL today.

[Chris Hayes]

The NFL player playoffs are on CBS and streaming on Paramount. Plus.