B (10:45)

This is not Iraq.

A (10:47)

This is not Iraq. We checked and the spelling is different. We've got a great show for you tonight coming up. Former special presidential envoy Brett McGurk,

B (11:06)

My

A (11:07)

first guest tonight, has held senior national security roles under the last four presidents and has negotiated past deals with Iran. He's now a CNN national security analyst. Please welcome to the Late Show, Brett McGurk. Mr. McGurk, thanks so much for being here.

C (11:21)

Okay.

A (11:22)

Appreciate you coming up here. Of course. A moment's notice. As I said before, you served as national security positions for four presidents. Give my audience just a quick synopsis of your experience in the Middle east and specifically with Iran.

B (11:36)

Steven. Well, first, it's great to be here at such an important moment. Yeah, I served under Bush, Obama, two years with Trump and then the last four years with Joe Biden. I was his White House Middle east advisor and I spent a year in Iraq in 2004. And I've been dealing with, dealing with this vexing issue of Iran. Really over the last 20 years, one way or the other, I've Negotiated hostage deals with Iran. You might know Jason Rezaia on the Washington Post reporter. I helped the deal with him to get out of Iran. After spending 500 days in Evan prison, I've negotiated deals with Iran that have failed. I've been under fire from Iran and Iraq. I've known people who've been killed in Iraq. 600Americans, of course, were killed by Iranian roadside bombs in Iraq. I've known some of them. Every president, Stephen, has dealt with this vexing issue going back to Jimmy Carter. Ronald Reagan sunk the Iranian navy in an operation named Praying Mantis, very similar to what our military is doing now. It is a vexing, most difficult issue.

A (12:31)

Did this attack come as any surprise to you?

B (12:36)

I was surprised by the timing that it came so suddenly. I think you made a good point earlier, Stephen, that the case I don't think has been made to the American people as I think it can be

A (12:45)

made, clearly hasn't been made. It remains to see whether it can be made because generally speaking, the case is better to be made ahead of time right now. I mean, given everything you just said, that so many presidents have had to deal with this back from Jimmy Carter till now, that nobody is defending the Khamenei regime or their behavior in terms of the terrorism, their missile program, their clear pursuit of nukes, since even no one is defending that. Why do you think only 27% of Americans in a Reuters Ipsos poll approved these strikes? 43% disapproved and 29% were not sure. So about a third of Americans aren't sure. I mean, and this is this right now, you might say, not to be flip about this. This is the good part. When the American military has gone in and done what they always do, which is being extremely effective in their attack, isn't this the chance for the highest possible approval the president could get with this thing? Why do you think it's got such low approval?

B (13:43)

I think, let me cite one of the best military strategists in history. In this iconic theater, I doubt there's been much talk, Carl von Clausewitz, but he said that any.

A (13:53)

We couldn't come up with anything that rhymed with Clausewitz

B (13:58)

before launching a military operation. A leader such as a president has to be clear in his own mind of what he wants to achieve and how to achieve it. And that's not always the strongest suit of President Trump and very clear, shifting objectives. So I think the American people have legitimate questions about what exactly are we trying to do here and what I saw the administration do today and I've served a lot of his people. I know Dan Kaine, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs. I worked with him very closely back in the counter ISIS campaign. He's an incredible, incredible military tactician. And he tried to lay out today we actually do have specific objectives. We were working to degrade Iran's overall power structure, its military capacity, so it cannot project power outside of its borders. It was a more limited objective than regime change. And he was kind of trying to narrow what presidents seem to lead with over the weekend. But no, this has not been. I think if you're going to, you have to lay out to the American people. I'm old fashioned. You know, there used to be this point saying, you know, it was never really like this, Stephen, that foreign policy stops at the water's edge and presidents would sit behind the Resolute desk and lay out to the American people exactly what we're going to do. That's eisenhower and George H.W. bush and I've been in the Oval Office for some of those addresses and

A (15:11)

people came together behind Commander Chief after

B (15:13)

he had his case. I think that's an important element of presidential leadership, to lay out to the American people exactly what we're trying to do.

A (15:20)

Trump has said that the big wave hasn't even happened yet. What would a bigger wave than this be? I know you don't know, but it can't be.

B (15:29)

Exactly. But I think, you know, knowing something about these things, what's been happening in the last last couple days is what you call a shaping. You're taking out all. Make sure Iran has no air defenses left. By the way, these are Russian air defense systems, which the world now knows really don't work very well. Trying to go after Iran's missiles so that they cannot do what they've been doing the last two days, firing missiles at us. We've tragically lost six American troops. I think our hearts go out to their families. Missiles against the Gulf states and missiles against Israel. So going after the missiles and then once you do some of that, then our pilots can hover over Iran with lower risk and I suspect we'll see more strikes against what's left of the nuclear program. There's a deeply buried site. The Iranians came to us in the. Actually the Biden administration said, oh, we're going to bury, we're going to dig into a new mountain and have a deeply buried nuclear site. It's called Pickaxe Mountain. We're going to put centrifuges in there. And they're building this site. It wasn't hit in the June war. I suspect it'll be hit now. I don't know for sure. I think we'll see that coming. But look, what worries me though still, Stephen, is that you have to have defined objectives so that if you don't define your objectives going in war, conflict has a momentum of its own. And that's how you get an emission creep and expanding goals. And before you know it, it really does become something that can be endless. I think you have to be very tied to your objectives here. And hopefully within a couple weeks or something, we can actually see this winding down.

A (16:52)

That is, the Rumsfeld famously said five days, five weeks. I doubt five months in terms of how long Iraq would go.

B (16:59)

That's a very important lesson. I landed in Iraq In January of 2004, eight months into the war, and I was a civilian advisor. And you land at the airport in Baghdad. Many Americans had this experience to serve there. And you drive to what was then the Green Zone, this highway called the highway of death and bombed out vehicles driving 80 miles an hour. And you just realize our country got ourselves into something we didn't fully anticipate, understand, or were prepared for. And we invaded Iraq with 130,000 troops with an unlimited objective to create a constitutional democracy. So the ends and the means of that strategy, there was a huge gap and that's what we fell into. We later corrected that later in the Bush administration. But no, no, you have to be tied to your objectives, align your ends and means and be very disciplined. And I hope, and that's what I saw General Kaine trying to do today, I really hope that's where this, the

A (17:54)

president said that he doesn't have the yips when it comes to putting boots on the ground. And yips for people who don't know it's a golf term, like you get a little shake at the last minute before you putt, you have a little hesitancy, a little nerves about it. Do you have the yips about us putting troops on the ground when it comes to that?

B (18:12)

I, one of the best secretaries of defense. I serve with Bob Gates, who was the secretary of defense under both Bush and Obama. He was quoted, if a president would have to have his head examined to send American combat brigades into Southwest Asia, which Iran is part of. What I very much agree with that. So, look, air power can be effective, but this is why the objectives have to be well defined. If you're talking about trying to change the Iranian political system or regime change from the air that's almost impossible to do. We don't have the power to do that, to orchestrate a change like that and to put US Boots on the ground in Iran? No, I would definitely, I guess, have the yips. Is that the right way to put it?

A (18:50)

Yes, I guess. I don't know. It's his term, not mine. Now, what do we know about the people of Iran? There has been some celebrations in the streets, but then again, they still have the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps have all the weapons.

B (19:08)

Exactly.

A (19:09)

And they're not exactly gonna lay them down and say, oops, are bad. Do you think there's a chance that there actually will be a civilian uprising to overturn this regime?

B (19:20)

Stephen, it's a country of 90 million people. We've had no American diplomats there, really, since the revolution. So our feel for what's happening on the ground is extremely limited. We know, though, that the people demand a change. But you made a key point. I had an experience in sitting with Iranian counterparts and negotiating with them, and they would say to us, when you put a hard demand on the table, you Americans, you're always changing your government every two to four years. We can just wait you out. That's how they see us. And I said to this guy, once you have lost the support of a critical mass of your population, the young people, your population do not support your system. And he just said something very menacing. He said, actually, we do have support of enough of the people. He said, we have all the weapons and the besieged militia, which is the internal security apparatus, and the Revolutionary Guards, they guard the revolution. They protect the revolution. And Henry Kissinger famously said about Iran, they have to decide whether they are a country or a cause. And this Islamic Republic in Iran, they are. Their aim is to spread the revolution around the world. It's a revolutionary state, very ideological. And so their aim is to protect the revolution and to use violence against their own people to stay in power. So what I fear, Stephen, when you look ahead, is that even if the people do rise up once again, that what is left of the system, they have the monopoly of violence, and they're willing to use it. And that would be very tragic. And I think, you know, the administration has to think through that scenario. What do they do if in a month, you start to see uprisings and you start to see the mobilization to do another crackdown?

A (20:58)

Back to Rumsfeld, he. He said, after the chaos, after enduring Operation Enduring Freedom, that was the second Iraq War, I think he said, hey, democracy is messy. You know, he said, stuff happens. Essentially, Colin Powell, on the other hand, famously gave his Pottery Barn rule, which is, you break it, you own it. Does this administration own the situation in Iran?

B (21:26)

I see. It's a great question. And I lived through. I mean, the issue in Iraq, by the time I got to Iraq, was already broken. The army had been disbanded. We did de Ba' athication meeting the entire bureau, actually, all the teachers. Nobody could work the whole thing. And this huge vacuum opened up. I mean, that is not what I see happening here in Iraq. There's a corollary here to that Powell doctrine that when I hear the Trump administration talk about this, you know, we're going to. We break it, and it's the Iranian people actually own what comes next. And. And so they're not taking ownership of that step. But I suspect even with this leadership decapitation, this regime is resilient. It's multilayered. They will find another leader. He might be significantly weaker. They might find some.

A (22:13)

Who do you think it might be?

B (22:14)

It's a great question.

A (22:16)

I mean, I'm available in June. Brett, thanks so much.

C (22:25)

Thank you.

A (22:26)

Brett McGurk, everybody. We'll be right back with Daniel Radcliffe. For years, Gone south has been a podcast about crime in the American South. But for our new season, we're widening the lens through deeply reported narrative driven stories. We're digging into the myths, scandals, and power structures that stand still shape the south and in a lot of ways, the country itself. Follow and listen to gone South Season 5, an Odyssey podcast, available now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your shows. Joining me now is a Tony Award winning actor, you know, from Swiss Army Man, Merrily We Roll long and all, all of the Harry Potter instructional videos. Please welcome back to The Late Show, Mr. Daniel Radcliffe. Nice to see you again.

C (23:31)

Thank you for having me.

A (23:32)

How you been?

C (23:32)

Oh, my. Yeah, yeah.

A (23:33)

You grew a big old bushy beard.

C (23:35)

I did. Well, I've been allowed to for my current job. They made me shave the last time I was here.

A (23:39)

Oh, that's nice.

C (23:39)

So, yeah, I can just be lazy.

A (23:41)

Oh, you look great. You kind of look like a fisherman.

C (23:43)

Thanks. You know what? On the Reggie Dinkins show that I'm doing, Erica Alexander saw me come into work one day and said she thought I looked a lot Longshoreman, which I will take as a similar. Yeah, yeah.

A (23:53)

Similar compliment. So last time you were here was for Merrily We Roll along with our friend Jon Groff and Lindsay Mendez. Now you're back on the Broadway stage for every brilliant thing right there. Also at the Hudson Theater, same place you did the last great theater. And this is very different. This is a one man show, in

C (24:16)

a manner of speaking. Yes. So it is. It's a show about. It's about a young boy who was making a list to cheer up his mom who was dealing with depression. And it's about how the making of this list of brilliant, wonderful things follows him into adulthood and how it sort of become the story of, you know, you tell the story of his life sort of through this list. But the reason I say it's sort of a one man show is that there is a huge amount of audience participation which is very, very fun for those who like it. And it's. It is so really.

A (24:47)

So what did it do that you get suggestions or what do you suggest?

C (24:49)

So there's basically, there's the list itself. There's sort of 80 pieces of card I hand out every night. And they are to the audience. To the audience. And so if you. If the show starts at 8, I'm in the audience at 7:30, I'll be seeing everyone as they come in handing out cards. It has a number on them. If I shout the number, you shout the thing that's written on the card. That's the sort of lower grade.

A (25:06)

As they come in, Daniel Radcliffe is in the audience.

C (25:09)

Yeah, I'm freaking out. I'm really alarming people who are just trying to find their seats, but it's a lot of fun. And then for about. For five people in the show. Five people do play characters in the show. So five people who walk into the theater not knowing this is going to happen that night will end up being on stage and doing scenes. And it's really. It should feel every night like we are making the whole play together. It's really lovely.

A (25:32)

I got to ask though, so you're in the audience when everybody comes in. Does any. Does anybody not realize it's you right at first? They go, why did they hire longshoreman to be an usher?

C (25:45)

The place I am most alarming to people is as I'm running up the stairs to try and hand out cards on the top floor of the theater, I am running past people going, oh, excuse me, excuse me. And you can tell people are briefly, very annoyed to be being pushed past. And then they're like, oh, I guess I have to let you go. You're fine. But yeah, it's fun. It's fun doing.

A (26:00)

Had you done a one man show before?

C (26:01)

No, never. And I would only want it like the things that obviously Sarah Snook did Dorian Gray and Cynthia Erivo now doing Dracula. That's something that I have so much respect for. And it's like what they do is amazing. But this is very much not that this is. I think I would only want to do a one man show if I was also roping in people from the audience. Cause it just, it's fun and weird and different.

B (26:21)

Sure.

A (26:22)

You happy to do any one man show? As long as it's not a one man show.

C (26:24)

As long as it's not a one man show. Yeah, exactly.

B (26:26)

Yes, yes.

A (26:26)

I feel the same way here now. Had a baby last time you were here?

C (26:30)

Yes.

A (26:31)

How old is that child now?

C (26:32)

He is almost three.

A (26:33)

Oh, that's big enough to be wandering around.

C (26:35)

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

A (26:36)

Three is very as many said the people who say terrible twos have never

C (26:40)

had a three because everybody loves telling the parents of two year olds that three is in fact worse. I found this out recently because they're stronger. They're stronger, more willful.

A (26:49)

Does he come to the theater?

C (26:50)

He has been a few times. His actually his mom Erin did a play last year in Lincoln center. So he was on that stage for a bit. I have brought him into the Hudson theater now a couple of times and he is far too comfortable on a stage for my liking. He wandered around the other day. He's also only been on a stage where it's an empty auditorium and he was wandering around. He visited the other day and he was wandering around just shouting. As soon as he got on stage he just started shouting, dancers to your places. I was like, I was like, where has this. Evidently it's something that he has in his gymnastics and dance class so that he has learned from them. But the fact that he even knew to say that on a stage is terrifying and unsettling.

A (27:27)

So he wants to be a stage manager when he grows up.

C (27:30)

Ideal. Great. Behind the camera, off the stage, Great. Be stage management, be a director. Great.

A (27:34)

Give him a little three ring binder on a stopwatch. He'll be fine. Absolutely. Okay. You are also starring in the new sitcom the Fall and Rise of Reggie Dinkins alongside Tracy Morgan.

C (27:48)

Morgan, yes, absolutely.

A (27:53)

Recently the two of you attended a Knicks game. There you go. That's fun. The two of you the Knicks game. Is he a fun hang off set?

C (28:02)

Yeah, he's the most like whenever you do anything with Tracy, you sort of go like, well I can't. If I do this again, it won't be nearly as fun. Cause yeah, this was my first time Ever going to a basketball game and, like, Tracy Morgan. Ever.

A (28:12)

Any basketball game.

C (28:13)

Any basketball game. Yeah. And it was with Tracy Morgan to the Knicks. So it's really. It was a pretty. It was a cool and insane experience.

B (28:19)

Sure.

A (28:19)

It's not always like that.

C (28:20)

I guess not. Yeah. No, I mean, Tracy, you know, he will say five of the most insane things you've ever heard a human being say every day. He kept telling me that he was gonna make LeBron give me his shoes, and I was like, you know, please, please don't. I'm sure he doesn't want to.

A (28:38)

Did you get LeBron's shoes?

C (28:39)

I did not, but only because Tracy didn't manage to speak to him. I am fully convinced that if he had managed to, like, eyeball him, I might have one of LeBron's shoes right now.

A (28:47)

But, yeah, you could use it as a boat.

C (28:49)

I mean, I certainly could. Yeah, I could get to work in that.

A (28:51)

Wow. We have to take a quick break. We're right back with more Daniel Radcliffe, everybody. Back with the star of every brilliant at the Hudson theater here on Broadway, Daniel Radcliffe. Okay. This year marks 25 years since the first Harry Potter film. I'm sure you know it.

C (29:19)

Right.

B (29:19)

Okay. Okay.

A (29:20)

Came out now. Not to get into that, but now there's gonna be a Harry Potter series.

C (29:26)

Yes.

A (29:27)

Okay. That they're doing on hbo. Does it feel good to pass the Beauxbaton, as it were?

C (29:32)

Very good.

B (29:33)

Yeah.

C (29:33)

Yeah, it really does. You know, I'm actually delighted that if, you know, when my kid grows up and is into Harry Potter, he can watch a version that is not me, which I feel like watching it with your dad would be less cool. Right. Take you out of it.

A (29:46)

You don't want to pull for your dad.

C (29:47)

No, exactly. Yeah. So he'll be able to do that.

B (29:50)

And.

C (29:50)

Yeah, it's lovely. And it means at some point there will be somebody else to answer all the Harry Potter questions. And I can pass that on to them, too.

B (29:56)

It's great.

C (29:57)

Yeah.

A (29:57)

So it doesn't bother you like someone else is going to be thought of as Harry Potter?

C (30:01)

I mean, you know, we've had three spider mans in my lifetime. We've had. When you look at, like, so far. So far. Yes, so far. I mean. And, you know, if you look at a character like Sherlock Holmes, like, it's something like there were always going to be many, many iterations. So very happy to see it be passed on to somebody else. And best of luck to all of them.

A (30:18)

Your friend, Tom Felton. Draco Malfoy. Is on Broadway right now. Yes, he is.

B (30:22)

Yeah.

A (30:22)

Have you had a chance? Have you guys seen each other's stuff?

C (30:26)

I have not seen. We haven't been to each other's shows yet.

A (30:28)

The problem being you both are on stage at the same time.

C (30:30)

There's that, but he also. It was weird. He came to the premiere of the Merri movie came out last year, and he came to that. And it was really. It was lovely to see him, but that. All the press around. It was like, tom Felton and Dan Radcliffe reunite for the first time in 16 years. Like, guys, you don't know our lives. We've hung out a bunch. Like, just because we haven't been doing it in front of cameras, there's the assumption that, like, oh, this is the first time they've seen each other. It's like, no, we are friends outside of this. Yeah.

A (30:57)

So the show is called Every Brilliant Thing again. It's at the Hudson Theatre. What are five brilliant things about life? Oh, five according to Daniel Radcliffe.

C (31:06)

Okay, I'll count. Okay. Tom Lehrer. You know Tom Lehrer, Those songs, right?

A (31:12)

First we got the bomb, and that was good because we delivered teeth in motherhood.

C (31:15)

Exactly.

A (31:15)

Then Russia got the bomb, and that's okay. Balance of power is maintained that way. Who's next?

C (31:20)

There you go.

A (31:20)

You got any more of that one Edit. Give me a Tom Lane.

C (31:24)

We will all go together when we

A (31:26)

go Doing the Vatican rag.

C (31:28)

Doing the Vatican rag. Poisoning pigeons in the park. The element song. Oedipus Rex.

A (31:32)

Once was a man named Oedipus.

C (31:34)

You may have heard about his old complex. His name appears in Freud's index. Cause he loved his.

A (31:37)

Loved his mother. He loved his mother. Like mother. His mother was a sister and his

C (31:44)

son with his brother. One thing on which you can depend is he sure knew a boy's best friend.

A (31:48)

Is.

C (31:49)

Yes.

B (31:52)

Yeah.

C (31:52)

So you know Tom Lehrer. I got to meet Tom Lehrer once.

A (31:56)

No way.

C (31:57)

Yeah. He came to see how to succeed when I was doing that show. So that my son. And all the ways he mispronounces words he doesn't know. Somebody gave him a toy Lamborghini, and he has remembered it as zucchini, which I will never correct.

A (32:11)

Even better.

B (32:12)

Even better.

A (32:12)

Yeah.

C (32:13)

And what else? Oh, I'm only up to 2. I'm gonna use one of the ones from the show, which I love that we have at the moment, which is when the windshield wipers wipe to the beat of the song. Yes. Right. Come on.

A (32:25)

100%. You're in tune with the universe.

C (32:27)

And can I see Stick with three. I'm sure there's more you can stick with three. You. You were a brilliant thing.

A (32:33)

You.

C (32:33)

I know it's kind of sucker.

A (32:36)

It took you so long. What took you so damn long? Now we can go.

C (32:40)

We'll stop at 4.

A (32:41)

Thank you very much, Daniel Radcliffe. Every brilliant thing is on Broadway at the Hudson Theater. Go see it. Thank you for listening to the Late Show Pod show with Stephen Colbert. Just one more thing. If you want to see more of me, come to The Late Show YouTube channel for more clips and exclusives. How many discounts does USAA Auto insurance offer? Too many to say here. Multi vehicle discount, Safe driver discount, New vehicle discount, Storage discount. How many discounts will you stack up? Tap the banner or visit usaa.com autodiscounts restrictions apply. America, America, you used to be so fun but now you go to bed at night scrolling on your phone. Well listen up America. Carnival is here with world class crew and ropes course too. And comedy and snorkeling and dining like everything from sea to shining sea.

C (33:45)

Find your fun again@carnival.com Carnival is calling

A (33:48)

ship's registry the Bahamas in Panama.