Intro Rewind: Ocean Vuong (Extended)

Summary

The Late Show Pod Show with Stephen Colbert

Episode: Intro Rewind: Ocean Vuong (Extended)
Date: December 31, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this extended episode, Stephen Colbert is joined by acclaimed author and poet Ocean Vuong to discuss Vuong’s new novel, The Emperor of Gladness. The conversation explores profound topics like hope, suicide, the American dream, and the role of literature in giving voice to experiences not otherwise spoken. The episode also features a playful segment where Becca quizzes Colbert on Late Show workplace lingo, adding warmth and a behind-the-scenes peek into the show’s culture.

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Key Segments & Discussion Points

1. Late Show Vocabulary Game

(03:11–09:46)

• Becca introduces a new segment: staff-submitted words and phrases unique to The Late Show culture, asking Colbert to explain them.
• Memorable Terms:
  • "Brappin on the poof" (03:40–05:03):
    • The phrase used to describe ending a cold open, referencing drummer Joe Saylor’s signature "brap" note and a puff of smoke—a tradition from the earlier days of show tapings and often written on their rewrite room wall.
    • Memorable quote:
      • "Brappin on the poof is... what we call the end of any of the cold opens... when you get to the final joke... Joe Saylor, our drummer, jazz cowboy... goes brap. That's how he starts the song every time." – Stephen Colbert [03:40]
  • "Dollar sign" (05:11–06:18):
    • Used in Late Show scripts to denote a spot where a better joke is needed; "funny is money."
    • Memorable quote:
      • "Dollar sign means we drop a dollar sign into any script where we think we need a better joke in this spot... All you have to do is search for dollar sign and you can find it in the script... because funny is money." – Stephen Colbert [05:14]
  • "Sack, sack, sack, sack, sack" (06:22–09:46):
    • A quirky weekly tradition where staff members each put a dollar in a sack, with a dramatic drawing to pick a winner (and a humorous "loser" first).
    • Colbert shares inside jokes, rituals, and the importance of maintaining tradition.
    • Memorable quote:
      • "On Thursdays, there's a sack on my desk... everybody goes around the building and gets a dollar from everybody... then I pull out who the winning dollar is, and I start it. I always say it has to happen the same way every time. Because I'm a creature, because I'm neurotic, I have to say: sack. Sa. Sack. Sack. Sack." – Stephen Colbert [06:25]

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2. Extended Interview with Ocean Vuong

(10:02–18:13)

Introduction

• Stephen Colbert introduces Ocean Vuong as a New York Times bestselling author, National Book Award nominee, and MacArthur "genius" grant winner.
• Vuong’s new novel, The Emperor of Gladness, is celebrated as an instant bestseller and Oprah’s Book Club selection.

The Premise of The Emperor of Gladness

(10:25–12:15)

• The novel opens with a young man contemplating suicide, but stopped by an 82-year-old woman with dementia; they form an unexpected bond over a year.
• Vuong draws from his personal history, including the suicide of his uncle.
• Notable insights:
  • Vuong emphasizes the act of suicide as paradoxically tied to hope:
    • "Suicide is still an act of hope. One does it with the hope of ending tremendous suffering... a hopelessly hopeful act." – Ocean Vuong [10:49]
  • On staging the novel after the “ledge moment”:
    • "Usually stepping away from the bridge happens at the end of a book... What a wonderfully tense and capacious way to start a book. To ask, what does day two look like for someone who chooses to live, God willing, despite not having the ability to do so?" – Ocean Vuong [11:37]

Kindness Without Hope & American Dreams

(12:15–13:44)

• The protagonist works in a fast-food restaurant; Vuong reflects on his own experience at Boston Market.
• Vuong distinguishes between the “American Dream” and “Americans who dream”:
  • "I'm not interested so much in the American dream as we know it, so much as Americans who dream…in every fast food restaurant you see, it's full of people with dreams. Despite not being able to execute them, they still hold onto them and they strive towards it." – Ocean Vuong [13:15]
• He highlights the acts of kindness among coworkers knowing there may be no “afterplace.”

The Role of Hope

(13:44–15:03)

• Colbert asks if dreams constitute an unconscious form of hope.
• Vuong frames hope as the “North Star” and a teacher’s job to “push the horizon back” for students.
• The classroom is depicted as “a laboratory of possibility.”
• Notable exchange:
  • "Hope is still the greatest engine. And it begins with language. It's not empty... a classroom is the most hopeful place. Even before a single person steps into it... the condition of the classroom is aspirational." – Ocean Vuong [14:15]
  • "Cynicism masquerades as wisdom." – Stephen Colbert [15:00]
  • "Often cynicism can be misread as intelligence in our culture. And hope is often the most courageous thing because it means you’re all in…" – Ocean Vuong [14:43]

On Being a Fool and Artistic Risk

(15:03–15:44)

• Colbert quotes E.E. Cummings, which leads to an exchange about their shared birthday (October 14th).
• Vuong:“Everything worth doing risks being foolish.” [15:03]

Oprah’s Book Club and Vietnamese American Representation

(15:44–18:13)

• Vuong describes hearing Oprah’s voice as transformative, tying it to daily life at his mother’s nail salon.
• He honors talk shows for democratizing access to culture:
  • "To bring cultural work to the center of people and say, you have permission to access this discourse… it brought the idea of culture and widened it into a town square. And that town square happened to be in the middle of a nail salon in Hartford County. What luck." – Ocean Vuong [17:22]

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On the risk of hope and foolishness:
  • "The worst thing, you know, to be in our culture is a fool. But everything worth doing risks being foolish." – Ocean Vuong [15:03]
• On the meaning of hope:
  • "Hope is still the greatest engine. And it begins with language." – Ocean Vuong [14:15]
  • "Cynicism masquerades as wisdom." – Stephen Colbert [15:00]
• On the power of cultural democratization:
  • "Talk shows in general... bring culture to working people. Because a book... still takes eight, ten hours to read. People like my mother worked... 8am to 8 at night... what was beautiful for me was that it brought the idea of culture and widened it into a town square." – Ocean Vuong [16:54 & 17:40]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 03:11–09:46 — Late Show Lingo Game (Brappin on the poof, Dollar sign, Sack tradition)
• 10:02 — Begin Extended Ocean Vuong Interview
• 10:39 — Vuong describes novel’s premise and personal history
• 12:15 — Kindness without hope, fast-food work, and dreaming
• 14:15 — The meaning and risk of hope; teacher’s role in hope
• 15:00–15:03 — "Cynicism masquerades as wisdom" exchange
• 15:44 — Oprah’s Book Club's impact on Vuong and his community

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Tone & Language

• The conversation blends Stephen Colbert’s characteristic warmth and wit with Ocean Vuong’s thoughtful, poetic reflections.
• The episode shifts seamlessly between playful insider anecdotes and deep meditations on life, literature, and hope.

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Conclusion

This episode stands out for its mix of late-night humor and literary gravitas. The playful lingo game provides an insider’s look at The Late Show’s culture, while Ocean Vuong’s interview is moving, insightful, and rich with reflections on hope, loss, and what it means to dream in America. It’s a must-listen for fans of the show, lovers of literature, or anyone seeking wisdom on finding light in dark places.

Transcript

[Stephen Colbert]

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[Becca]

Hi there, Steven.

[Stephen Colbert]

Hi, Becca.

[Becca]

This is the Late Show Pod Show. This is Stephen Colbert.

[Stephen Colbert]

This is Becca.

[Becca]

Yes. And we're here to introduce some wonderful podcasts for the break while the late show is off on vacation.

[Stephen Colbert]

Great. And is this a guest that we're getting tonight or a comedy bit?

[Becca]

This is a guest.

[Stephen Colbert]

This is a guest. Can I guess who this guest is? Please give me a hint.

[Becca]

This is really cool. I don't know if you would call this person a celebrity. This is not a celebrity. This is an artist who you had a lovely conversation with.

[Stephen Colbert]

Ocean Vuong.

[Becca]

Yes.

[Stephen Colbert]

Ocean Vuong.

[Becca]

Yeah, sure.

[Stephen Colbert]

The Emperor of Gladness.

[Becca]

Yeah. Really cool. Really cool interview. We're doing the extended on here.

[Stephen Colbert]

Oh, good.

[Becca]

And since this is a wordsmith, do you have anything you want to say about Ocean Vuong? Because you had a lovely thing A taping after you guys wrapped your interview, just about how nice it is to have, you know, an author on, right?

[Stephen Colbert]

Oh, I mean, I just. I mean, I. You know, the people who are listening to this probably know that the show is going off the air in May, and there's lots of things that I regret about the show going off the air in May, but one of the things is that I just love that we have on people like Ocean Vuong. And I know that Seth already had on Ocean Vuong. I know I got Ocean scooped by Seth here, but, you know, just another show going off the air that would have on Ocean Vuong in a comedy context, like we're a late show comedy show. It's one of the things I like most about our show is that the different. All the different kinds of guests who fit it.

[Becca]

Yeah, definitely. But this is a beautiful interview with Ocean Vuong. Please enjoy. But before we get to that, I have a game I want to play.

[Stephen Colbert]

Oh, gosh.

[Becca]

This is a new game we've never played before. I call it Late Show Vocab. Since we have a wordsmith on the podcast tonight, an artist of words and poems and novels. I have a list of words that the staff has submitted to me that are words that we believe originated at the Late show or possibly the Quber Report that are said with frequency at work, and we want you to explain what they mean.

[Stephen Colbert]

Okay. Wow. Okay, I'm very curious.

[Becca]

Here comes the first one. Brappin on the poof.

[Stephen Colbert]

Oh, brappin on the poof is because that's what we call the end of any of the cold opens to the show. Is that when you get to the final joke, you go, okay, now we're brapping on the poof because Joe Sailor, our drummer, jazz cowboy. Jazz cowboy goes brap. That's how he starts the song every time. Originally, when Jon Batiste wrote that song, which is called Humanism, when he wrote that song, it didn't have the brap. It had been in the brap in the sample that he gave me. And that might have been like a holdover, you know, like from a other thing they were taping or something. But I said, where's that brap? He goes, oh, that's not. I said, could you do that? Because that's great way to start the show is that brap on that. And then I think one of the early times that we're doing a cold open, I think it might have. I might have been in the cold open, and then it ended with a smoke bomb or Something like that. Like a poof. Like, and I disappeared in the cold open back when I used to do them with Liz Levin, and she was trying to get a meeting with me. Every cold open.

[Becca]

Yeah.

[Stephen Colbert]

And so I said, yeah, that's the out. It just ends right there. Like, when the smoke bomb goes poof like that. We're brapping on the poof right there. And so I think it was brap it on the poof originally. And so on the back wall in our rewrite room, we've got all these sort of things that have been said at the show over the last 10 years. And one of the first ones just says, brap it on the poof with an exclamation mark. So we always call it brap it on the poof.

[Becca]

Yeah. And I just want to say, I've worked here for six years now. That phrase is said every single day. This is the first time I've learned what it means.

[Stephen Colbert]

Brap it on the poof.

[Becca]

Brap it on the poof. Okay, next one. Dollar sign.

[Stephen Colbert]

Dollar sign means we drop a dollar sign into any script where we think we need a better joke in this spot. And it's dollar sign A. Because you don't generally put another dollar sign. We don't use dollar signs that much when we're writing jokes. And so all you have to do is search for dollar sign and you can find it in the script.

[Becca]

Okay. So it's just a symbol that was.

[Stephen Colbert]

Supposed to put in there. So let's dollar sign that or say tk and the TK stands for joke. The TK is to come. And why is that a joke to come? I don't know. It's like, why is. I don't think we came up with that. I think it's like something to come here. I think it has to do with, like, early filmmakers that were German. The same reason why in a script it'll say MOS means without sound because it's mid out sound.

[Becca]

Oh, interesting.

[Stephen Colbert]

It's mit.

[Becca]

I thought it might be because TC could be time code. And so maybe they just needed another letter there.

[Stephen Colbert]

Hey, maybe that. Maybe that's why.

[Becca]

Yeah, if anyone knows. Yes, Colin, let us.

[Stephen Colbert]

And also dollar signs, because funny is money.

[Becca]

Oh, that's good.

[Stephen Colbert]

That's why in my mind it's always been, cause funny is money.

[Becca]

Because funny is money.

[Stephen Colbert]

Exactly. You know, silence is violence. Yeah. But funny is money.

[Becca]

Okay, next one. Sack, sack, sack, sack, sack.

[Stephen Colbert]

Oh, on the last show of the week, which is now Thursdays last show of the week, we Have. We've been doing this for a long time. Since the old show. I mean, 20 years maybe. We've been doing this. Is that on Thursdays. There's a sack on my desk. We even took the sack from the old show to the new show. We had to replace it. Cause it had been torn apart. It just got worn out. Well, everybody goes around the building. An intern goes around the building and gets a dollar from everybody. And probably the feds are gonna come down on us for saying this. And you write your name on the dollar and you put it in there. And then I pull out who the winning dollar is, and I start it. I always say it has to happen the same way every time. Because I'm a creature, because I'm neurotic, I have to say sack. Sa. Sack. Sack. And that means it's sack time. And everybody should pay attention. And they pay attention, like, maybe more than they do in rehearsal. Because they don't know if they're gonna win the sack.

[Becca]

Yeah.

[Stephen Colbert]

So sack, Sack. Sack. Sack, sack. And then sound. Whoever's running sound goes. They roll a tape of a drum roll. And then the first thing I say is, tonight's loser is. Because I used to say, tonight's winner. But then it would be over and I'd love the tension, and I love the sack. And so I said, let's. How do we stretch this out? So now I pull out $2, and the first dollar is tonight's loser is. That means if we did it the normal way, this person would have won. But we don't do it the normal way. We pull out $2 and the second one is the winner. And so it's just another way to make people feel bad, I guess.

[Becca]

Yeah.

[Stephen Colbert]

And so then the loser. And then while I say, and the loser is. Mark McKenna, our stage manager, always goes, I hate this part. He has to say that every time.

[Becca]

Yeah, yeah.

[Stephen Colbert]

And then I pull out whoever it is. And then I go, and tonight's winner is. And there's a drum roll again. And then I ask people in the audience. I say, I will cheat for you.

[Becca]

Yes.

[Stephen Colbert]

Describe your dollar. Is it just loose? Is it in a tube? Is it folded? Is it a star shape? Is it a paper football? What is it?

[Becca]

People get creative with the folds they do.

[Stephen Colbert]

Like the ring. At one point, I had to make loops. Illegal.

[Becca]

Oh, yeah.

[Stephen Colbert]

Because it would slip right onto my finger. Because I would just rub my hand and the loops would flip on my fingers.

[Ocean Vuong]

No loops.

[Stephen Colbert]

No loops. I don't go if I feel a loop. No Loops. No, loops. And then I try to cheat. Like if you say it's a trian, and you're the first person that really gave me a good answer because people are yelling out their shapes. And then I try to cheat every time. And I think in 20 years, I think the cheating has worked twice.

[Becca]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Stephen Colbert]

Have you ever won?

[Becca]

I have won. Well, I'm gonna say that it is sort of like playing reverse crane, like in an arcade, where you try to create an object that you, the crane, you, Stephen Cooper, the physical crane, get caught on.

[Stephen Colbert]

Oh, sure. Yeah, that's right.

[Becca]

Or that feels like a nice thing to grab and take out of a hat.

[Stephen Colbert]

So that's sex. Sex, sex, sex.

[Becca]

I've won. It's a wonderful. It's so exciting when you win. It's so exc. So it's exciting when anyone wins.

[Stephen Colbert]

And the rule is there has to be $100 in the bag.

[Becca]

Yeah, no, it's.

[Stephen Colbert]

Or I won't pull anything out.

[Becca]

It's a healthy sum for sure.

[Stephen Colbert]

And if there isn't 100, me and Tom and Lewis.

[Becca]

Yeah.

[Stephen Colbert]

And maybe whoever is sitting next to Tom for the rewrite for the rehearsal, we throw in some cash to get it over 100.

[Becca]

Yes. Very generous bucks being thrown in. But it's a lovely thing. And the staff always, like, treats themselves to nice dinners with each other, you know, outside of the work hours. It's a lovely tradition.

[Stephen Colbert]

Anything else?

[Becca]

I got more, but I think let's hold off for more next week.

[Stephen Colbert]

Great. Let's do more. This is fun. Let's do more.

[Becca]

This is fun. And we're gonna listen to Ocean Vuong on the Late show right now. Please enjoy.

[Stephen Colbert]

Welcome back, everybody. Folks, my next guest tonight is a New York Times bestselling author who has been nominated for the National Book Award and won the MacArthur genius grant. His new novel is the Emperor of Gladness. Please welcome to the Late Show Ocean Vuong. Hi, nice to meet you.

[Ocean Vuong]

Hi, good to meet you.

[Stephen Colbert]

Thanks for being here.

[Ocean Vuong]

Thank you so much. It's an honor.

[Stephen Colbert]

In May, you released your highly anticipated second novel, the Emperor of Gladness. It was an instant New York Times bestseller and it was selected for Oprah's Book Club. For those who haven't read it yet, what is it about?

[Ocean Vuong]

Well, it starts with a young man who's standing on the edge of a bridge contemplating jumping, and he's stopped by an 82 year old woman with dementia, and they end up living together in the course of a year. And I think suicide is a very deeply Personal subject for me. I lost my uncle when he was just 28 years old. I was 24. He was like a brother to me. And I think at the core of it, suicide is still an act of hope. One does it with the hope of ending tremendous suffering. I would go on to say it's a hopelessly hopeful act. And what was really interesting to me was what happens for someone who chooses to step away from the ledge, right back into a corner. How do you choose life without the tools for living? And it was a question I never got to ask my uncle. And I think fiction at its core gives us a technology to ask questions we never get to ask in life or is too costly or the chances are fleeting. And I thought usually stepping away from the bridge happens at the end of a book. Everyone's relieved and it's cathartic. But what a wonderfully tense and capacious way to start a book. To ask, what does day two look like for someone who chooses to live, God willing, despite not having the ability to do so? What does day 20? I thought I wanted to ask the question I never got to ask the loved one I lost. And fiction is a wonderful way to do it.

[Stephen Colbert]

You speak in here of. You've spoken of the idea of kindness without hope. What does that mean?

[Ocean Vuong]

Well, the character goes on to work in a fast food restaurant. And I think many Americans have experienced this, myself included. I worked at a place called Boston Market. And the elephant in the room in a place like that, I think is you're not supposed to ask, where do you go after this? You know, if you go to nursing school, if you go to medical school, there's a kind of even H Vac, There's a kind of ascendancy that there's an after place. But when you work in fast food, working minimum wage, the idea that you're actually trapped is incredibly palpable for everybody involved. And I think what you notice then is that everyone is so generous with a kind of kindness because they know that there is nothing else beyond it. But they are deeply invested in their own dreams. And I think what I learned working in fast food and most of my life as an American is that I'm not interested so much in the American dream as we know it, so much as Americans who dream. And in every fast food restaurant you see, it's full of people with dreams. Despite not being able to execute them, they still hold onto them and they strive towards it. And I wanted to amplify that using what I knew best, which is language.

[Stephen Colbert]

Do you think that the dream itself, the dreams that they have of something else, constitutes a form of hope, even if it's not a conscious hope 100%.

[Ocean Vuong]

I think hope is a beautiful thing because it's kind of always the North Star. And as long as you have that beacon, you move towards, and I do this with my students. The greatest thing you can do as a teacher is to push the horizon back even further. Because even if your students don't reach their goals, they still exceed the limits of where they started with from the get go. And I think this is true with any vocation, whether it's in a fast food restaurant or writing or entertainment or what have you. Hope is still the greatest engine. And it begins with language. It's not empty. And the classroom, to me is the most hopeful place even before a single person steps into it, a teacher or students. The condition of the classroom is aspirational. It's a laboratory of possibility and wonderful. And the teacher's only job is to preserve that so that it does not get demolished by cynicism. I think often cynicism can be misread as intelligence in our culture. And hope is often the most courageous thing because it means you're all in. You know, you've gone all into it.

[Stephen Colbert]

Cynicism masquerades as wisdom. Yeah.

[Ocean Vuong]

Yeah. Thank you 100%. And I think it takes a lot of courage to say, I believe in this and I'm gonna go forward even if you judge me, even if you say this is silly or foolish. Some of the worst things, you know, to be in our culture is a fool. But I think everything worth doing risks being foolish.

[Stephen Colbert]

Do you know EE Cummings? Holy to be a fool while spring is in the world, my blood approves 100%. You know, and kisses are a better faith than wisdom.

[Ocean Vuong]

You know, we share a birthday. October 14th, my fellow Libra.

[Stephen Colbert]

Oh, really?

[Ocean Vuong]

Coming soon.

[Stephen Colbert]

Yeah.

[Ocean Vuong]

Yeah.

[Stephen Colbert]

Well, listen, speaking of hopeful things happening, here you are. You were chosen for Oprah's Book Club. And I'm just curious. That's a great way for more people to see the art that you do was. I mean, growing up, was Oprah a big thing in your house?

[Ocean Vuong]

Oh, my gosh, it was a big thing in my mom's nail salon because we were there every day and I had the best English. So I ran the phones and, you know, I was so honored to get that call. Anytime I get an important call, I stand in front of my mother's altar and my publisher tricked me. They said, we're going to have A publicity meeting. And I said, oh, gosh, I'm going to get in trouble. So I stood in front of my mother's altar. I said, ma, help me out here. And then they said, actually, we're having some trouble with the line. We're going to call you with an unknown number. Just pick it up. And then I heard the voice. And I knew that voice. I heard it every day at 4pm with my mother. And I think what was so beautiful is that my mother, she was illiterate her whole life. She doesn't know what the New Yorker is. She never saw what a literary prize is. But the only time she saw a book for the first time was in Oprah's show. And I think what was so beautiful about that show, and even your show, talk shows in general, is that you bring culture to working people. Because a book, even if you get it free at the library, it still takes eight, 10 hours to read. And people like my mother worked 8 o' clock in the morning to 8 at night. If a customer walks in at 7:55, she has to take them, and that's another hour. She won't be home till 9. And to bring cultural work to the center of people and say, you have permission to access this discourse. And I watched the women in the nail salon look at that show with the books and say, oh, it's about divorce, it's about doubt, it's about migration, it's about trying their best to have kindness as a human being, which is an incredibly hard thing to do. I know that I don't need to go to school and have a degree to know that I've lived that. And I think what was so beautiful for me was that it brought the idea of culture and widen it into a town square. And that town square happened to be in the middle of a nail salon in Hartford County. What luck.

[Stephen Colbert]

Well, Ocean, thank you so much for being here.

[Ocean Vuong]

Thank you.

[Becca]

Thank you so much.

[Stephen Colbert]

Thank you for sharing your story. The Emperor of Gladness is available now. Ocean Guang, everybody. Thank you for listening to the Late Show POD show with Stephen Colbert. Just one more thing. If you want to see more of me, come to The Late Show YouTube channel for more clips and exclusives.

[Ocean Vuong]

It is my great honor to welcome you all to Starfleet Academy.

[Stephen Colbert]

There's never been a better time to enroll in Star Trek.

[Ocean Vuong]

It's our job to prepare you for the unimaginable.

[Stephen Colbert]

To the Night Cadet.

[Ocean Vuong]

In high pressure situations, positive reinforcement is crucial to one's success. You're doing a great job this is what we train for. These friends of mine, they all live.

[Stephen Colbert]

For something bigger than themselves. And that's Starfleet. Starfleet Academy new series streaming January 15th on Paramount Plus. Everything you've done has come to this. The biggest and wildest mission yet is now streaming. I need you to trust me one last time. Tom Cruise Mission Impossible the final reckoning rated VT13. Now streaming on Paramount Plus.