From The Chi to Real Life: Lena Waithe on Black Love, Healing & Community

Summary

Podcast Summary:

The Latest with Loren LoRosa
Episode: From The Chi to Real Life: Lena Waithe on Black Love, Healing & Community
Date: May 15, 2026
Host: Loren LoRosa (The Black Effect Podcast Network & iHeartPodcasts)
Guest: Lena Waithe
Special Guest Interviewer: Bevy Smith

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Episode Overview

In this special episode, Loren LoRosa takes listeners behind the scenes of an exclusive event celebrating the upcoming final (eighth) season of The Chi, the acclaimed TV drama created by Lena Waithe. The episode centers on a live Q&A conversation, hosted by Bevy Smith, with Lena Waithe reflecting on the legacy of The Chi, the importance of authentic Black storytelling, and themes of love, healing, and community.

Waithe delves into character origins, writing from lived Black experiences, community building on and off screen, redefining narratives around Black men and women, and the importance of seeing multi-dimensional portrayals of Black love and family. The conversation balances laughter, emotional moments, and thought-provoking insights, serving as both a love letter to Chicago and a tribute to the show's impact.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Legacy of The Chi

[02:51–06:48]

• Loren introduces The Chi as a groundbreaking series that subverts negative headlines about Black and brown communities, showing instead the depth, love, and growth within.
• Shoutouts to a wide array of cast members and guest stars who have contributed to the show's cultural impact.

2. Family, Community, and Realness in Storytelling

[07:28–10:47]

• Bevy Smith notes the show's emphasis on complex, multi-layered family dynamics — both "chosen" and blood relations.
• Lena illustrates her approach to surprising audiences, particularly in character reveals; she discusses subverting expectations in a famous scene where, instead of chastizing, a mother offers food to her son's girlfriend.
  • Quote (Lena Waithe, 10:13):
    "I wanted to write what would be nice if that happened. If you catch a young lady in the bare room with your son, maybe see if she's hungry...You made them feel like a human being."

3. Inspiration from Real Life—Humanizing Black Men

[11:02–12:51]

• Lena shares that Emmett’s character was inspired by her real-life friend, Jonathan, who had children very close in age by different women, challenging ‘judgmental’ narratives.

  • Quote (Lena Waithe, 11:54):
    "I think there's a judgment that goes along with guys like, how many baby mamas you got? ...But what kind of father is he? Is he evolving as a man?"

• She explains how she and her peers had to help “raise each other” in the absence of their own fathers, bringing authenticity to the series.

4. The Archetype of ‘The Good Kid’ and Community Leadership

[14:31–15:08]

• Papa, a confident, charismatic young leader in the show, is based on neighborhood kids Lena knew growing up.
  • Quote (Lena Waithe, 14:31):
    "I just sort of had this vision for this kid with a lot of personality and a lot of confidence. And he's someone that we might not think would have confidence, but he is."

5. Faith, Empowerment, and Portrayal of Black Churches

[19:27–20:45]

• Lena speaks about her experience growing up in a church led by a Black woman, an empowering influence she wanted to reflect in the series.
  • Quote (Lena Waithe, 20:28):
    "My church is also led by a Black woman...that was the norm to me to see a Black woman in the pulpit talking about deserving the keys to the kingdom."

6. Humanizing Imperfect Black Characters

[22:34–24:44]

• On Emmett’s evolution: Lena wanted the character to become his “true self,” rather than fit a sanitized or “positive” public image.

  • Quote (Lena Waithe, 23:15):
    "I want to just write a human image and let us wrap our arms around it if we can."

• She discusses extending grace to all characters, especially those who struggle or "fail," highlighting the show's commitment to empathy.

7. Uplifting Black Women and Sisterhood

[29:42, 32:14–33:08, 40:18–41:08]

• The women of The Chi are diverse in age, personality, and approach to love, friendship, and motherhood.
• Symbolic moments like Jada and Darnell’s wedding (love at any age) and the powerful, non-victim portrayals of women, emphasizing their agency and mutual care.
  • Quote (Lena Waithe, 32:24):
    "Love can come back around. Yes, I think. But it has to evolve."

8. Community Healing: Men’s Circle & Redemption

[37:23–38:35]

• Discussion on the depiction of Black men coming together for vulnerable conversation in the Men’s Circle, a rare image of male honesty and support onscreen.

9. Coming-of-Age & Generational Narratives

[39:05–39:37]

• The growth of the show's young characters (from pre-teens to prom) parallels Waithe's own experience, especially the tension between staying in and leaving the community.

10. Healing, Redemption, and Full Circle Moments

[25:51–27:30, 43:05–44:34]

• The rescue storyline with Ronnie and Keisha is dissected; Lena and Bevy discuss Black girls' right to be "worthy of being saved" on TV.

  • Quote (Lena Waithe, 26:47):
    "This isn't a damsel in distress, per se...he isn't the one that takes him out...it was very important for us to see a woman being able to save her own life."

• Birth and death as narrative bookends—Jada’s final moments and the welcoming of new life—reflecting ‘it takes a village’, and the cyclical nature of life and healing.

11. Community Entrepreneurship & Love for Chicago

[28:53–31:49]

• Emmett’s ownership of Smokey’s restaurant as an emblem of Black entrepreneurship, safe havens, and second chances for returning citizens.
• Lena recounts her grandmother’s influence and Southern hospitality, blending with Chicago “city swagger.”
  • Quote (Lena Waithe, 31:26):
    "There were always people over there. Some would be blood relatives, some would be neighbors, some would be friends—but everybody was treated like family."

12. Show’s Closing Bow & Impact

[44:41–46:12]

• Lena reflects on the rarity of Black shows being allowed a proper, planned ending and the honor of watching The Chi join the ranks of other beloved TV farewells.
  • Quote (Lena Waithe, 45:12):
    "This one gets to be in that…line of TV shows that people crowd around and get ready for that final bow. And I'm really grateful that we'll all get to have that moment together."

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the purpose of storytelling:
  "I want to just write a human image and let us wrap our arms around it if we can." (Lena Waithe, 23:15)

• On empathy for flawed characters:
  “You do not have to be perfect for me to wrap my arms around you.” (Lena Waithe, 23:52)

• On the uniqueness of The Chi:
  "The Shy is not just like some soapy, drama black show. It has literal blood and guts and bones and muscle inside of it." (Lena Waithe, 12:51)

• On women’s relationships:
  "They don't feel the need to be in combat with each other. They've developed this beautiful sisterhood." (Lena Waithe, 40:46)

• On authentic representation:
  “Sometimes you have to see a thing in order to believe it is possible.” (Lena Waithe, 32:55)

• On community roots:
  “My grandmother's from Arkansas... Her Southern energy mixed with our city swagger is really how you get a lot of people of my generation.” (Lena Waithe, 31:20)

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Important Segments & Timestamps

• Introduction & setup – [02:44–06:48]
• Opening discussion with Lena Waithe & Bevy Smith – [06:48–07:28]
• Character inspiration & family dynamics – [07:28–12:51]
• Humanizing flawed Black men – [11:02–12:51]
• Papa’s origin and youth leadership – [14:31–15:08]
• Faith, church, and Black woman empowerment – [19:27–20:45]
• Emmett’s evolution and character grace – [22:34–24:44]
• Black love and relationships – [29:42, 32:14–33:08]
• Redemption/Heroism with Ronnie and Keisha – [25:51–27:30]
• Entrepreneurship: Smokey’s as a community anchor – [28:53–31:49]
• Women's agency and sisterhood – [40:18–41:08]
• Finale reflections & legacy – [44:41–46:12]

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Summary Tone & Language

The episode flows with warmth, humor, and candor—mirroring both the culture of The Chi and the spirited repartee between Lena, Bevy, and Loren. The tone is inviting and conversational, with Lena and Bevy trading anecdotes, teasing, and heartfelt observations. The language is real, grounded, and unfiltered—never shying away from complexity or contradiction, but always with empathy and love for Black communities and storytelling.

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For Listeners New to The Chi

This episode provides both a primer and a deep-dive on why The Chi matters: challenging stereotypes, showing healing and complications in Black families, giving voice to inner-city realities and joys, and ensuring that Black children, men, and women see themselves represented honestly and fully.

Lena Waithe’s advice to viewers—watch the final season, celebrate its legacy, and remember: “You do not have to be perfect for me to wrap my arms around you.” (23:52)

Transcript

[Lauren LaRosa]

This is an iHeart podcast.

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[Amazon Health AI Announcer]

Amazon Health AI presents Painful Thoughts why

[Lena Waithe]

did I search the Internet for answers to my cold sore problem? Now I'm stuck down a rabbit hole filled with images of alarmingly graphic sores in various stages of ooze.

[Bevy Smith]

I can clear my search history, but I can never unsee that.

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[Public Investing Announcer]

Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public, you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index. With AI, it all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public investing Brokerage services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory services by Public Advisors, llc. SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures [e-mail] disclosures let's get to it.

[Amazon Health AI Announcer]

Time to do it.

[Lauren LaRosa]

I'm the homegirl that knows a little bit about everything and everybody exclusive.

[Lena Waithe]

You know she don't lie about that, right? Lauren came in hot.

[Lauren LaRosa]

Hey, y', all, what's up? It's Lauren LaRosa. And this is another episode of the Latest with Lauren LaRosa. This is your daily dig on all things pop culture entertainment news. In all of the conversations that shake the room, baby, I've been bringing y' all some real good things, okay? Because you guys always tell me whether it's we're talking on social media or I run into you in person that you guys love when we do the entertainment news breakdowns. But the top of y' all list that you guys love to hear is the exclusives, which is where we bring you the news first here at the Latest with Lauren LaRosa, which we champion, but also the conversations that shake the room, especially if you guys are hearing it here first. Now, I was privileged to be able to attend a premiere for the Chi. The Chi is a TV series that has been on now for eight seasons. Now, if you guys are not familiar with the chi, this is a show that was created by Lena Waithe, who has done some amazing things especially for us in the television and movie space. But this show was created by Lena Waithe, and the Chi, it takes its own narrative about what living in Chicago is like. And I think what the Chi did over the eight seasons that we were blessed to have the Chi on air was it showed us that sometimes what we read on the news and, you know, what we hear in the headlines and what we hear, people tend to focus on when it comes to our communities, these black, heavily black and then brown communities. It ain't always what it's hyped up to be at all underneath all of that. And yes, it is there and we are not going to ignore it. There's a lot of love. There's a lot of community. Anybody from an inner city can feel me. Wilmington, Delaware is look, y' all like to play with Delaware, talk about how small we are, but it is very much that. It is very much so community. It is very much so growth. It is a stomping ground. It is a place to become who you are going to give the world. And we got to watch the cast of the shy over these last eight seasons become who they are going to give the world in this final season. So the final season, the eighth season will premiere on May 22nd. And there was a premiere conversation in party that went down here in New York City that I got a chance to attend. And we were blessed to be in live conversation with Lena Waithe. Now this was a Q and A about the shy about the final season. And just, you know, what we can come to expect as we see these things now. Michael V. Epps, who plays Jake Taylor. Jacob Lattimore who plays emt. Yolanda Ross, who plays Jada, that's Emmett's mom on the show. Alex R. Hibbert, who plays Kevin Burgundy Baker who plays Kesha Williams, who is Kevin and Keisha are brother and sister on the show. You also have Iman Shumper who was on the show for some time. Luke James, Bart Barton Fitzpatrick, Tyler Aombri, Miriam A. Hyman Common, Candy Burst was on the show. Lala Anthony made a premiere a performance. Corey Hardrict, Tabitha Brown, there have been the brat. There have been so many people that have blessed the shy's stage, the legendary Lynn Whitfield over these eight seasons. And Lena. Lena did that. She put this together. But let's get into the conversation where Lena Waith is guiding us through what we can expect in this eighth season of the show and just why what she's doing in storytelling as a black person, shaping our narrative through it with black people on TV is important. And I mean, after that, you gotta look out for the last season and go watch the shy. Right. Let's get into it.

[Bevy Smith]

Kalina told me not to be with the bullshit in the cards, so I gotta be a little bit with the bullshit in the cards.

[Lena Waithe]

What's the. What's up? I said, hey, y'. All. Y' all look great. Welcome.

[Bevy Smith]

They came out for you, my love.

[Lena Waithe]

Wow. Well, I came out for them.

[Lauren LaRosa]

Okay.

[Bevy Smith]

So we came out for each other.

[Lena Waithe]

Yes, we did. Yes, we did. This is so good to see y' all this exciting. I just said, like, you don't need the cards.

[Bevy Smith]

I know we do because we have cues and all the back. My good job. I got to do my good work.

[Lena Waithe]

I was like, you could find free flowing.

[Bevy Smith]

Yes, we can. We're gonna do a little freestyle, but we gotta keep to the situation. Situation.

[Lena Waithe]

Go for it.

[Bevy Smith]

So from the beginning, this show has really been about family. Chosen family, blood family. But it's the dynamics in it have always been very complicated. But one of the things that I love, what you've always been able to do, is you showed it very real. Yes. Incredibly so. To the point sometimes when you're like, oh, how'd she know that about me? There have been so many times throughout the show that I have felt seen that I felt like, oh, my gosh, that happened to me. As a matter of fact, this clip that we're about to show actually did happen to me. The clip is Jada catches Keisha under the bed. Now, Lena, my boyfriend's mother, was not as nice as that. I certainly did not get to stay for breath. Okay. But, you know, one of the things I really love about that scene is that it is very, very real. And it's happened to more people than would like to admit. But where did you get that idea from to set it up like that? Because that's really one of the first times that we really get to meet in it.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah. You know, I think what I wanted to do as a writer was do the unexpected in the scene. I knew that I wanted to introduce Emmett in this way to let you know that this is the center of his life. Sex is the center of his life. Getting that kind of validation from women. He doesn't know who he is. That's why he has to make women scream his name. Very real. He's trying to find his identity inside the body of women.

[Bevy Smith]

Yeah.

[Lena Waithe]

And so his. When his mother shows up, the central woman in his life who is taking care of him, she even says, like, if you go, just be here fucking and smoking, at least you can do is pay me some rent. So she's saying, like, he's not even paying rent, but he has three children and he's living in her house, and he's sleeping with another young lady. She's wondering if there's gonna be a fourth. There will be eventually, but it took a while to get there. And so the thing is, I want to kind of turn the audience's expectations on their head. So it's like she's already upset and she's annoyed. In my mind, I said, what's the. What can I tell you about Jada in this moment? And also, how can I surprise you? You're not expecting her to say, are you hungry?

[Bevy Smith]

No. As I said, that didn't happen for me.

[Lena Waithe]

Correct. And the truth is, is that I'm sure in most cases, that's not what would happen. So I wanted to write what would be nice if that happened. If you catch a young lady in the bare room with your son. Not it's not best to chastise her, but to maybe see if she's hungry.

[Bevy Smith]

Hungry to be seen.

[Lena Waithe]

Hungry to be seen. But also she's genuinely hungry. She says, yeah, I could eat. Yeah, I could eat, actually. And in that moment, rather than shaming someone, you made them feel like a human being.

[Bevy Smith]

Yes. And that's something that I love about the humanity of all the characters, because on the face of it, Emmett is like a traditional fuck boy. But very quickly, you gave him texture and you gave him real substance beyond just that.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah. Because he's also based on somebody I actually know. Maybe in this room right now. Jonathan, are you here? John, the reason. Can I tease you? I mean, I'm not speaking out of school, because these children exist. I grew up with Jonathan Richardson. We went to junior high school. Yeah, yeah.

[Bevy Smith]

Jonathan, come over here.

[Lena Waithe]

Don't stay away from the cast, please. But I'll say this with love, and we gonna keep it with no judgment. Can I say, like, you know, you have children that are, what, 11 days apart? Wow. And they're not by the same woman. That's okay. At the same. Yeah, it's all right. Everybody relax. They are. They are 18 now in full ride.

[Bevy Smith]

They're 18 years old and have full ride.

[Lena Waithe]

Scholarship psychologists. Because he's a great dad. But I remember, like, that folklore, it was like, yo, Jonathan's outside. But the thing was, like, I grew up with him, and so this is my bro. He ain't no villain. He ain't no monster. He ain't no heartless dude. This is, like, my guy. You know what I'm saying? So I think I wanted to, like, I think there's a judgment that goes along with guys like, how many baby mamas you got? It's like, bro, like, what kind of father is he? How is he showing up? Is he evolving as a man? Cause the truth is, like, Jonathan shows up for me. I didn't have a father in my life, and he got killed when I was 14. So even though me and Jonathan are the same age, like, we had to help kind of raise each other. Like, he let me know when his mother passed.

[Wheezy]

He was talking.

[Lena Waithe]

I didn't realize, like, he was dealing with that when we were writing the Jada storyline. How could he have known that? So I want people to understand that the Shy is not just like some soapy, drama black show. It has literal blood and guts and bones and muscle inside of it. And that's what you get when you watch the show, you feel that our DNA. I love you, Jonathan.

[Bevy Smith]

Thank you for being here. And you get to see the real humanity. And as you mentioned, you know, teenage kids, babies having babies, oftentimes chastised, oftentimes put to the side and written off. Right?

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah, yeah.

[Bevy Smith]

Look down, look down upon. You think the kids ain't gonna be shit. Cause the daddy and the mama ain't shit or you gotta be pregnant as teenagers.

[Lena Waithe]

Right, right.

[Bevy Smith]

That's the prevailing of sentiment in many cases.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Bevy Smith]

But there's always a good kid in the community. There's always one of those kids that everyone knows is gonna not just be all right, but they're gonna be a guiding light. They're gonna be a beacon. Such a beautiful portrayal of a character that we all know. One of the things I always enjoyed about Papa was that he really knew who he was very early on. And he was always trying to save his brothers, always as a kid. And I think again, there' like that in the neighborhood. We had a boy in my class that like, literally was in the same class, but they would make him do the speeches at the like or the tour, like, you know, assembly, because he was that much of a leader, much like Papa. So what was the inspiration of behind his character?

[Lena Waithe]

You know, I actually grew up with a kid like Papa in the neighborhood. But his name, his nickname was. We actually had Coogee in our neighborhood growing up, but also his name was Pepe. But then there was these brothers I knew named Jake and Papa. And so something about that name, Papa just kind of stood out. Obviously it was a nickname. And I just sort of had this vision for this kid with a lot of personality and a lot of confidence. And he's someone that we might not think would have confidence, but he is confident and he is sort of specific and funny and silly. When we found Shamon was just like the perfect match.

[Dr. J. Barnett]

What's up, everyone? This is Dr. J. Barnett and I am the host of just heal with Dr. J. It's hard to believe that the first phone call ever happened over 150 years ago. Just think about that. I also want you to think about. What time is it? It's springtime. It's time to get outside and enjoy this beautiful weather. Hang out with some family and friends. Listen, I tell you who I'm going to connect with. I'm going to connect with myself because this is my birthday month. Yes, I am a spring baby. I'm gonna take me some runs, I'm gonna take me some long walks. I'm gonna probably go get some brunch too. You know, a little birthday brunch. And you know what? Over all of these years and phone calls, AT&T has been there connecting people in meaningful ways. This is more than just a story of technology and innovation. It's a story of human connection. And listen, with over 150 years of connecting, I just want to take this opportunity to remind you to call someone that you care about, because that's what it's about. Connecting.

[Lauren LaRosa]

Connecting changes everything.

[Wheezy]

AT&T. This is Wheezy. WTF from Decisions, Decisions. You know, a lot of us grew up not fully trusting the healthcare system. And honestly, the system has given us plenty of reasons to feel that way. But now it's time for us to take control of the conversation, to take control of our sexual health. Learn the facts, ask questions, and advocate for ourselves. That's how we start changing the story. So let's talk. We like to think HIV is something that affects other people, but it is hitting our own community hard. Black women make up about 13% of women in the US but account for nearly half of all new HIV diagnoses around women. And being proactive doesn't mean you just don't trust your partner. It just means you trust yourself enough to stay in control. So know your options, ask questions, and protect your peace and your body. That's real power. Because protecting yourself isn't embarrassing, it's responsible. Sex is normal. Protecting yourself should be normal too. Actually, it's kind of badass. Taking control of your sexual health is grown woman energy, sponsored by Care for the Culture from Gilead Sciences.

[Kal Penn]

Hey, everyone, it's Kal Penn. I'm the host of Irsay, the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club. This week on the podcast, I am sitting down with Ray Porter, the narrator of Andy Weir's audiobook project Hail Mary. Massive sci fi adventure about survival and science and what happens when you wake up alone, very far from Earth.

[Ray Porter]

I really had to make a decision because I caught myself getting that frog in my throat and starting to get teary as I'm narrating some of these sections. And it's like, okay, yo, yo, yo, is this indulgent? And I really thought about it. I was like, no. At this point, it would kind of be betraying the trust the author and the listener have in telling this story if I don't go through it. But there's places in this book that. That deeply, emotionally affected me. And I left it on the mic. That's great because it served the story. People will say like oh my God, I cried at the end. It's like, yeah dude, me too.

[Kal Penn]

Listen to Irsay, the Audible and I Heart Audiobook Club on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Public Investing Announcer]

Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public, you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index with AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory services by Public Advisors llc. SEC Registered Advisors. Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures [e-mail] disclosures and also came

[Lena Waithe]

right out of my brain. I was like, there he is.

[Bevy Smith]

And also rooted in church.

[Lena Waithe]

He's very much rooted in church. He's a preacher's kid. For sure.

[Bevy Smith]

He's a preacher's kid, a pk. And he did not shy away from that because he also knows a lot of times the PKs are the worst of the worst. Right. Because they're trying to prove that they're playing against tyrants. Right?

[Lena Waithe]

Exactly. But I love that he was like. He's like, y' all need Jesus.

[Wheezy]

Yes.

[Lena Waithe]

He wasn't afraid of prayer. And that's what's so interesting about his storyline. Like he really kind of like kind of steers away from the church and dates another preacher's kid who is. He kind of veers over to that kind of preaching.

[Bevy Smith]

Yeah.

[Lena Waithe]

Because I also grew up in a church that preached prosperity and some people can look down on that. I think there's something wrong with it. But my church is also led by a black woman. And that's like so rare. And that was rare. That was the norm to me to see a black woman in the pulpit talking about deserving the keys to the kingdom. And so it's like, it's not an accident that I was a little girl in that congregation.

[Bevy Smith]

Hearing that kind of empowerment, hearing that

[Lena Waithe]

kind of rhetoric and hearing it from a black woman. Please. Sitting next to my grandmother and my mother at church. We only went every now and then, call ourselves lazy Christians, you know, but when we were there, that was the word we got that, you know, the. Your steps are ordered and that prosperity is not a sin.

[Bevy Smith]

Amen. But sometimes they go too far.

[Lena Waithe]

They do. Sometimes.

[Bevy Smith]

The church.

[Lena Waithe]

Zeke was a little, you know, we was kind of talking about that kind of pastor. But you know, you have the humble pastor and then you have the flashy one. They both exist.

[Bevy Smith]

Yes, they do. Speaking of vast and wide characters, you know, you don't just have one type of woman in your show. There's so many different types of women in your show. And Emmett has dated many different types. Shout out to James.

[Lena Waithe]

Yes. Shout out to baby.

[Bevy Smith]

Take us through there, baby. Cause you had a lot to play with. And the thing that I really loved about Emmett's character is the growth. He didn't stay stuck. He didn't just stay above. And it wasn't without trials and tribulations, by the way.

[Lena Waithe]

Right. A lot of trials and tribulations.

[Bevy Smith]

A lot of trials and tribulations. He fell down, but he got back up okay.

[Lena Waithe]

Yes, he did.

[Bevy Smith]

Well, this time he went down on one knee.

[Lena Waithe]

Wait, wait, wait, wait.

[Bevy Smith]

We did that too.

[Lena Waithe]

Children are.

[Bevy Smith]

Well, no kids are here, but he did that part of business. Well, he did that as well. Cuz you also did have a lot of racy sex scenes throughout the year.

[Lena Waithe]

Yes, we did. Yes, it is the shop. Where do you think those babies propping up at?

[Bevy Smith]

Right, exactly. They be Bucky in the shop.

[Lena Waithe]

They do, they do.

[Bevy Smith]

And they also be getting married and celebrating black love every now and now and then sometimes they just get engaged. When did you decide that you wanted. Did you know from the outset that you wanted him to have a transformation? That you did not want him to just be the stereotypical kind of young black man who is a stud who's going to go out there and, you know, hit everything that's moving?

[Lena Waithe]

You know, I think it's too difficult to think that far ahead. They do try to ask you to do that when you're pitching shows, but you never know where a character's gonna go. You really don't. But I think what I did want was just for him to be a human being, even if he didn't figure it Out. It doesn't mean that his life isn't valid. It means that he kind of. Maybe he just didn't have it in him for whatever reason. But I didn't want it to say, oh, he has to become a great dad. I wanted him just to become himself.

[Bevy Smith]

Whatever that looks like.

[Lena Waithe]

Whatever that looks like, and create a sort of understanding of whatever that self is. Because I think we get too caught up in the idea of a positive image. And I think I want to just write a human image and let us wrap our arms around it if we can.

[Bevy Smith]

And then because of that, he did become a positive image, and he came. Became a very realistically positive image. Because it's not easy to have had that many kids with various women and then come out on the other side as a pillar of the community, which is what Emmett eventually becomes.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah. But I think what I'm trying to veer away from is this idea of who is accepted and embraced and celebrated because. Just because my father didn't know how to be there for us, but that doesn't mean that he's not, like a word, a human being worthy of my empathy. And so I think that's what I just want to steer away from. Because there could be this idealized human person, especially when it comes to us. It's like, how do we sanctify a person? How do we make them an angel enough for us to care about? You do not have to be perfect for me to wrap my arms around you. And I think sometimes in our community, we demand that, particularly of black men. I don't know how fair that is, especially with how much they have to deal with every. Women go outside every day. The tricky thing is, as black women, we have to then become the next thing they deal with when they come home.

[Bevy Smith]

But then, okay, man, y' all simmer down. Cause we go through a lot, too.

[Lena Waithe]

But that's the thing is, like, who do we. Who do we have to throw our. On?

[Bevy Smith]

Yeah. Who.

[Lena Waithe]

Who are we throwing our excess baggage on?

[Bevy Smith]

Each other.

[Lena Waithe]

Absolutely. Because where else for it. Where is there for it to go, Right?

[Bevy Smith]

Exactly. Exactly.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah.

[Bevy Smith]

Well, you. You give every single one of your characters. I. I think you give them all grace, Right? Even the worst of them.

[Lena Waithe]

Correct.

[Bevy Smith]

Give them grace.

[Lena Waithe]

You must. They need the most.

[Bevy Smith]

They need it the most. Ronnie saves Keisha. Such an important storyline, because we always see stories like this about the white girls, and they are worthy of being saved. They're worthy of, you know, news reports running 24 7, the Amber Alerts, all of it. Right. They're worthy of people searching for them for months and years. But when it's little black girls, not so much. Especially little black girls who snuck out to go see a boy that maybe they should not have been seeing.

[Ray Porter]

Exactly.

[Lena Waithe]

And I want to shout out Justin Hillian, who's in the building, one of our showrunners. There you go. I see you, bro. This was his idea, you know, I said, in season three, I want to make the cops go away. How do I do that? He said, make a black girl disappear.

[Bevy Smith]

That's bonkers.

[Lena Waithe]

That's the kind of shit he'd be saying.

[Bevy Smith]

Yeah. His mind worked different. But it's realistic.

[Lena Waithe]

Realistic.

[Bevy Smith]

It's real.

[Lena Waithe]

And we did.

[Bevy Smith]

Yeah.

[Lena Waithe]

And the community found it.

[Bevy Smith]

There were two people that had to be redeemed and rescued in that scene.

[Lena Waithe]

Right.

[Bevy Smith]

Ronnie and Keisha.

[Lena Waithe]

Yes. Yes. I. I think. And also so interesting. And watching that back, we knew we wanted Ronnie to be the person that maybe broke open the door and got into the house. But ultimately, Keisha saves herself.

[Bevy Smith]

Yes.

[Lena Waithe]

She is able to use her own strength. And so this isn't a damsel in distress, per se. You know, he isn't the one that takes him out. And I think that was very important for us to see a woman being able to save her own life. But it's nice to have the support of a man coming in and saying, okay, let me break open the door, and now I'm gonna take him out.

[Bevy Smith]

Yeah, it is.

[Lena Waithe]

It is a dual effort.

[Bevy Smith]

You need both. Yes.

[Lena Waithe]

And I think that's amazing what the scene really represents. And also. Yeah. Like, for Ronnie to come to that space of him killing the character. Very beloved in the beginning, then you start to have empathy for him. And in this moment, it's a triumphant moment.

[Bevy Smith]

Yeah.

[Lena Waithe]

And of course, death is just around the corner for him, because that's how it works. But he gets to be a hero.

[Bevy Smith]

He gets to be a hero.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah.

[Bevy Smith]

And like you said, he dies shortly thereafter. But because he helped save Keisha, he also helped redeem himself in the eyes of much of the community.

[Lena Waithe]

Correct. Yeah.

[Bevy Smith]

He wasn't seen as just the guy who killed Coogy.

[Lena Waithe]

Exactly.

[Bevy Smith]

So he had more to. He had more of a presence in this life, on this world.

[Lena Waithe]

Absolutely. That was his purpose.

[Bevy Smith]

Yeah, exactly. Speaking of purpose, one of the things I've really enjoyed, because I am from

[Lena Waithe]

Harlem

[Bevy Smith]

and, like Southside, we are constantly fighting off gentrification, and so I love the way you paint this vibrant picture of what the south side is like. And it's a love letter. And one of the biggest love letters that you did on the shot was Smokey's opening.

[Lena Waithe]

Mother always knows.

[Bevy Smith]

Mother always knows.

[Lena Waithe]

Look how far we've come. Yes, Life and love, man. It happens.

[Bevy Smith]

And there was like at least four people in that crowd that he had slept with. So that's a lot. But the community gathering together just because a barbecue shop has transferred ownership to a young black man is something that was so important.

[Lena Waithe]

Oh, yeah. You know, I think in Chicago, we a lot. I call it a working class city, but also it's a entrepreneurial city. Like everybody's starting their own business, doing their own thing. And. And I think that really speaks to Emmett having Smokies and everybody be working at Smokies too. That's the thing. It's like everybody gonna ultimately have a job at Smokey's at some point. But that's what those kind of places are. There are places where you get your first job, place where you need a break, need a meal.

[Bevy Smith]

You just get out of jail, you need a job.

[Lena Waithe]

Look, that's basically what's becoming.

[Bevy Smith]

Right.

[Lena Waithe]

It's definitely. If you just got the pen, it has a job for you,

[Bevy Smith]

which is a real thing. It's a real thing in our community. Yes, because we're moving away from that. We need to have some safe havens for people. We need more entrepreneurs.

[Lena Waithe]

And look, also, I'm producing a play, New York Theater Workshop. The Peculiar Patriot. Don't sleep. Get you a ticket. If you can't afford one, hit my DMs. We'll see what we can do.

[Bevy Smith]

There you go. Speaking of community, the block party.

[Lena Waithe]

Oh, yes.

[Bevy Smith]

Let's run it. That was pure joy.

[Lena Waithe]

Come on now.

[Bevy Smith]

If Chicago was smart, they used it as part of their tourism board campaign.

[Lena Waithe]

Look, I mean, tell them to call me, right?

[Bevy Smith]

Because it makes you want to go to Chicago in the summer. I'm someone who goes to the Butt Villike parade every year, so. I know.

[Lena Waithe]

Tradition. Yeah, I mean, I think that that's such a. I know the cast is probably up here having like. Like, I don't know, crazy, like, flashbacks right now, watching these old clips. I know, it's crazy for me, too. It's like somebody reading your diary back to you. No, I mean, we really kind of wanted it to feel like the city, which is the city, is a community. And I think that's the thing about. And a lot. The truth is, a lot of Chicagoans, our grandparents migrated from the south, so they bring that Southern hospitality. Like my grandmother's from Arkansas. Okay. Very Small town you never heard of in Arkansas. Moved to Chicago when she was 17, and she built a. A new life there. But for her, she had both. For us, we just had the city, but we had her. So her Southern energy mixed with our city swagger is really how you get a lot of people of my generation who are. Have that city energy, but there's a Southern hospitality that we have, too, which is such a huge part of who I am and my personality.

[Bevy Smith]

Yeah, that's why you're always so welcoming, and that's why you're always about community first. First and foremost.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah. I mean, it's all I know. I think, you know, my grandmother was definitely a big host. You know, she was hosting the block club party, she was hosting the neighborhood watch party. She was hosting the poker night. She was hosting Thanksgiving. So there were always people over there. And some would be blood relatives, some would be neighbors, some would be friends, but everybody was treated like family. And I think you can feel that in my life, but also in the show.

[Bevy Smith]

Yeah. And you can always feel the abundance of love. And speaking of an abundance of love, Jada and Darnell's wedding. So if you guys don't know Lena, you should know that she is a romantic, and she believes in black love, and she believes in women of a certain age having love child. When I tell you, she be so worried about me. B. What's going on?

[Lena Waithe]

What's the. What's the.

[Bevy Smith]

So I know you wrote that Gatorade, getting married in the house for a real purpose. You wanted to show stuff that love can prevail at any age.

[Lena Waithe]

Well, yes. You know, and I think love can come back around. Yes, I think. But it has to evolve. Don't be doing it on and off stuff. That's the evolve. Just doing the same thing. Horizontal. But, yeah, I think we always want to show all kinds of love stories and age, you know, sexual orientation, all that kind of stuff. We want everybody to feel seen. We want everybody to feel like they're in the frame because they deserve to

[Bevy Smith]

be and that they have the potential for a big, monumental, loving relationship.

[Lena Waithe]

Absolutely. Sometimes you have to see a thing in order to believe it is possible,

[Bevy Smith]

which is what Emmett needs to see his parents.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah. And we saw the bouquet. Relax. Relax.

[Wheezy]

This is wheezy. Wtf? From decisions, decisions. You know, a lot of us grew up not fully trusting the healthcare system. And honestly, the system has given us plenty of reasons to feel that way. But now it's time for us to take control of the conversation, to take control of our sexual health. Learn the facts, ask questions, and advocate for ourselves. That's how we start changing the story. So let's talk. We like to think HIV is something that affects other people, but it is hitting our own community hard. Black women make up about 13% of women in the US but account for nearly half of all new HIV diagnosis around women. And being proactive doesn't mean you just don't trust your partner. It just means you trust yourself enough to stay in control. So know your options, ask questions and protect your peace and your body. That's real power. Because protecting yourself isn't embarrassing, it's responsible. Sex is normal. Protecting yourself should be normal too. Actually, it's kind of badass. Taking control of your sexual health is grown woman energy Sponsored by Care for the Culture from Gilead Sciences hey everyone, it's Cal Penn.

[Kal Penn]

I'm the host of earsay, the Audible and I Heart Audiobook Club. This week on the podcast I am sitting down with Ray Porter, the narrator of Andy Weir's audiobook project, Hail Mary Massive sci fi adventure about survival and science and what happens when you wake up alone, very far from Earth.

[Ray Porter]

I really had to make a decision because I caught myself getting that frog in my throat and starting to get teary as I'm narrating some of these sections and it's like okay, yo yo yo is this indulgence? And I really thought about it. I was like no. At this point it would kind of be betraying the trust the author and the listener have in telling this story if I don't go through it. But there's places in this book that deeply emotionally affected me and I left it on the mic. That's great because it served the story. People will say like oh my God, I cried at the end. It's like yeah dude, me too.

[Kal Penn]

Listen to Irsay, the Audible and I Heart Audio Book Club on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Public Investing Announcer]

Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public, you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index. With AI, it all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year. You can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors, llc. SEC Registered Advisor. Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures available at public.com disclosures the

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[Bevy Smith]

you also talk about love in other ways and as far as friendships. And we always see women, Black women, loving up on each other and taking care of each other and being there for each other. But I have to say I think the shy might be the first time we've ever seen black men committing to one another to be honest and to be vulnerable. Which brings us to the first men's circle.

[Lena Waithe]

Let's roll the table.

[Bevy Smith]

That scene is important. If you watch the shy, you know that most of the men seated in that circle are people that have done a lot of crime and violence against the community and each other. Right?

[Lena Waithe]

Okay, baby, it's the way you said it.

[Bevy Smith]

I'm just saying for those that y'

[Lena Waithe]

all know the every single man is

[Bevy Smith]

a hot mess basically.

[Lena Waithe]

And they base each other about their feelings. Well, I mean, look, they some of them have done some criminal stuff. Not like Joel Joel's character, though, is kind of, like, chilling, you know, some of. All right. But ultimately it's a place for them to talk about their feelings and talk about just what's going on with them, because I don't know if, like, men feel that they can say that stuff without feeling like a burden. And so I thought it was really cool to show the guys sitting around just having just a genuine conversation.

[Bevy Smith]

Yeah. And something else that you did that was very cool is to show children, the young kids, the teenagers. We met them when they were, like, pre teen. They grown up. And now we see them as teenagers at prom and grappling with what's next. And by the way, the way, who shot prom?

[Lena Waithe]

Just kudos to DeAndre and Quincy, who I think are in the building somewhere.

[Bevy Smith]

So beautiful and so very reminiscent of what we see. Black prom.

[Lena Waithe]

Oh, my God. Black prom is such a big deal. Please. I don't know. Is it big in New York, too? This. Yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Okay. Chicago, go crazy.

[Bevy Smith]

I love it because it's a coming of age moment. And again, something that we don't really get to see. And stories around young black kids.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah. About Kevin, thinking about moving, leaving the city. That storyline definitely kind of gave my own experience to Kevin just in terms of me wanting to leave the city and go to Los Angeles to chase a dream.

[Bevy Smith]

And he went and he chased. I want him back. Is he coming back this season?

[Lena Waithe]

I can't say. I can't say anything.

[Bevy Smith]

Someone who did appear, and I was very happy to see her. You know, you always go and get your girls that you love. You always bring the icons on the shine on. On your projects.

[Lena Waithe]

Yes.

[Bevy Smith]

So, of course, we gotta run Black Ghetto Brady Bunch with Leland Whitfield, all the tanks. She definitely ain't that same. I really appreciate that. All the women that you have written in this show, they have agency. There's no one that's really like a victim.

[Lena Waithe]

Right. Yeah. I don't believe in it. I don't believe in, like, victimizing yourself, but rather being a culprit in whatever your situation is. And that's what I think was interesting about Keisha and Tiff's relationship, is that they don't feel the need to be in combat with each other. And they've developed this beautiful sisterhood. I think the Internet calls them sister wives.

[Bevy Smith]

Yeah, they are definitely sister wives, but they.

[Lena Waithe]

They're so different and look at the world differently, but they're able to walk alongside each other. And I think that, to me, is just one of the most. It's one of my favorite things about the show is their relationship and how it's evolved. And you'll see it go through some interesting things this final season, for sure. All right. I'm not giving too much away.

[Bevy Smith]

Well, in season seven, you did something that really didn't appreciate.

[Lena Waithe]

Okay.

[Bevy Smith]

You brought back a villain. Someone that had me on pins and needles and needles and pins. And I'm talking about Reg is best. That family dynamic is who something. And when the mama came back, that was even more sauce on it. Talk about that relationship, because, I mean, you know, three brothers, all very different, but with a through line.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah. You know, I think that's something that I think the audience have been asking for, to see all three of them together. And when we did it, it just felt really complete and exciting and interesting. And that's kind of how we want to show people. Like, you can come from the same mother but be extremely different because you have different experiences. And I think it also. Half siblings is a whole interesting thing. They have different dads, but they all sort of. They still are part of the same tribe. And it's just really fun to watch the three of them together on screen. That's an amazing scene. Yeah.

[Bevy Smith]

Really great. Well, you already know that I could chat with you all night, but they making me rap my love. So. So let's play our last clip. Last one, which is so beautiful and really emotional. That's the one when I text you today and say I was crying.

[Lena Waithe]

Okay. She was crying. Yo.

[Bevy Smith]

It was beautiful. Keisha and Tiff give birth. Such a beautiful scene. We know how important black mothers are, not just to black families, but to the world. Okay. But for me, that scene was very much. It could have been called It Takes a Village because Victor is not that baby daddy, but he was right there. You know what I mean? And Jada is such a present grandma.

[Wheezy]

She.

[Bevy Smith]

She's on a deathbed, and she comes. She's like, I'm coming to see my grandchild.

[Lena Waithe]

Say that.

[Bevy Smith]

You know what I mean? Talk a little bit about the emotion of that scene and why you made those choices.

[Lena Waithe]

Oh, man. Well, we knew it would be our pan ultimate, this emotional scene of the births at the same time. And I think you're really picking up on what we were trying to put out there, that, like, sometimes the person you need isn't who you think this is. You don't realize that's who you need in that moment. And Tip would have been really asked out if she didn't have Victor in That moment, and they needed each other. And I think that with Jada coming to see what would ultimately become her namesake is that. That is how life works.

[Bevy Smith]

Full circle.

[Lena Waithe]

Yes. You know, at the ending of one life, a new life begins. And that, to us, was just so beautiful and important, and it was just this really stunning way to say farewell to a character that had really helped shape the show and hello to this new beginning for two characters that we've been with, obviously, since the beginning. Like, to see that clip that. The first clip that we saw, obviously, with Emmett and Keisha and Jada, and to see that clip, to go from that to that moment of them having a child and Jada making her transition, it's like I can't. I can't answer anything more than that.

[Bevy Smith]

It's a beautiful bow.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah.

[Bevy Smith]

Beautiful cherry.

[Lena Waithe]

Oh, we got another bow to tie. Another one.

[Bevy Smith]

And another one.

[Lena Waithe]

Mini bows.

[Bevy Smith]

Many bows. Which brings us to season eight, the last season.

[Lena Waithe]

Yes. The shy says goodbye. See the horse. Yeah. I'm really grateful that people are so excited and. Yeah. Just sharing it and just getting hyped up. Let's do this last dance.

[Bevy Smith]

And I also want to say I'm grateful that you guys got a chance to say a proper goodbye, and we had a chance to see the evolution of the characters, because oftentimes our shows don't get that.

[Lena Waithe]

No, you're absolutely right. And I will say, y' all know I'm a TV head. I love television. And I've gotten a chance to watch some really iconic TV shows in real time. In real time. So I got a chance to see some really important shows for bsay. Goodbye. One of those shows was the Cosby Show. I remember seeing Heathcliff and Claire dance off the set, break the fourth wall. A different world. I got to see the single Martin and all these shows take goodbye. But this one, this one gets to be in that. Those that line up that line of TV shows that people crowd around and get ready for that final bow. And I'm really grateful that we'll all get to have that moment together. And it's gonna be. It's gonna be sad. But you know we ain't done. We still got more to do.

[Bevy Smith]

Just don't touch. Not one of them kids better make it. That's all I know. Welcome to see you.

[Lena Waithe]

Look, ain't cop. Ain't no telling. We don't know. We ain't gonna say nothing. You gotta watch to find out. You know how we do. It's the shy. Anything is possible.

[Bevy Smith]

Okay, well, we all get into this party. But so I want to say thank you to the cast and crew, to Paramount plus. We get a question. Thank you to everyone who come.

[Lena Waithe]

Shout out to the cast, everybody in here. Congratulations. Shout out to Paramount Plus.

[Lauren LaRosa]

All right, y'.

[Bevy Smith]

All.

[Lauren LaRosa]

That was the conversation with Ms. Alina Waithe, the creator in the force behind the Shy. I mean, it's coming to an end, season eight. And I think there was nobody else better to host that conversation other than Ms. Bevy Smith. So if you guys enjoyed the conversation, let me hear back from you. Get out in the streets and in the tweets. Let's talk about it. I'll be back with another amazing episode of the Latest with Lauren LaRosa, the podcast. And I tell you guys every single episode. My low riders, y' all could be anywhere with any old body talking about all of these things, but you guys choose to be right here with me. I appreciate it. See you later.

[Amazon Health AI Announcer]

Streaming May 22 on Paramount. The acclaimed series from executive producer Lena Waithe reaches its final chapter. The Shy. For seven seasons, these stories, these streets, this community have stayed with us. Now it all leads to this. As friendships are tested, families evolve, and secrets refuse to stay buried, one thing is certain. The Shy is more than just a series. It's a legacy. Don't miss the final season. May 22 on the Paramount Premium plan.

[Lena Waithe]

Wasn't that delicious?

[Bevy Smith]

So good.

[Lena Waithe]

Your bill, ladies. I got it. No, I got it.

[Lauren LaRosa]

Seriously, I insist.

[Lena Waithe]

I insisted first.

[Lauren LaRosa]

Oh, don't be silly. You don't be silly.

[Amazon Health AI Announcer]

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[Ray Porter]

they earn unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases.

[Lauren LaRosa]

Okay.

[Bevy Smith]

Rock, paper, scissors for it.

[Wheezy]

Rock, paper, scissors. Shoot.

[Kal Penn]

No.

[Amazon Health AI Announcer]

The Wells Fargo Active Cash credit card. Visit Wells Fargo.com ActiveCash terms apply.

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[Kal Penn]

Hey, everyone, it's Kel Penn. I'm inviting you to join the best sounding book club you've ever heard with my podcast, Hearsay, the Audible and Iheart Audiobook Club. Every episode, I nerd out with amazing guests and dive into the best new audiobooks available on Audible. It's the book club for your ears. Listen to Earsay the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club on the iHeartradio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Lauren LaRosa]

This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.