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The Law Entrepreneur
459. The Psychology of Legal Leadership: Creating Safe Cultures While Managing Compliance with Karen Ansen
00:52:26
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- [00:03]
A
Sam Alai Here at the Law Entrepreneur, with our host Bridget Norris, we focus on law firm strategies for law firm growth. Practical plays to help scale firms for every shape, size and practice. It's time to talk about scaling. Let's have some fun.
- [00:24]
B
Welcome back to the Law Entrepreneur Podcast. I hope you enjoyed our summer series. I'm Bridget Norris, executive director of my Legal Academy entrepreneur and veteran CEO with more than 15 years experience in systems scaling and team leadership. Today's guest brings a unique perspective that every law firm owner needs to hear. Karen Anson is the principal lawyer and founder of Ignite, HR and Employment Law. With over 20 years experience in helping high pressure organizations navigate complex employment law while building psychologically safe cultures. What makes Karen's approach revolutionary? She doesn't just help clients tick compliance boxes. She helps transform how leaders think about their people, their culture and their well being. So if you've ever felt trapped between the demands of running a firm, maintaining your sanity, this conversation will give you some practical tools to create a culture where both you and your team can thrive. Let's dive in, right? Welcome to the podcast, Karen. I'm super excited to have you today. I want to dive right in because I know we have a lot to cover, but first I want to have you just tell us a little bit about who you are, about your practice and anything that I love. Always like at one great tip about yourself, something fun that, that everybody should know.
- [01:48]
C
Okay. So I live in Australia on the east coast, about two and a half hours north of Sydney. We decided to come out here and have a tree change. We are kind of at the tail end I guess in the last 10 years of our career. And I said, well, I can work from anywhere now. I've got good boundaries with people. So I do most of my, I do actually do all of my work online. I very rarely step foot in a, in any kind of businesses or anything like that. All my clients and, and so I started Ignite HR and Employment Law in 2019 and my husband's also self employed. He has a small business as well. I've kind of scaled up and then scaled back a couple of times. I wasn't sure what the sweet spot for me was, but the for me at the moment where I'm at is that I work primarily alone actually and tap in consultants that I need along.
- [02:39]
B
The way and like no team, no assistants, no team. Wow.
- [02:44]
C
And I have at the moment I had a young girl who approached me to, she wanted to do an internship and she does a couple of hours a week while she's studying her mba. But other than that, no, I don't have anybody. AI has been able to really transform my business. And for me, what I used to use, sort of my staff used to support me with was, you know, my diary management and all of the other things. I can do all of that with Copilot now I do, you know, I don't need really anybody to. And every week, you know, I get a rundown of what I've done and what I'm supposed to do. So that's fine. But I have a large group of clients that I service regularly. Some of them are monthly clients, some of them are just tap in when they need me. But mostly my offering is really that employee relations sweet spot. So I do some legal work, I do some HR work, but most of it is the most difficult kind of employee relations matters that you can get. So that's what my clients rely on me for. They might have a HR team, but what they do is they tap into my expertise from time to time, saying, look, we've got a matter so far. How do we either proceed in a very careful way or do we blow it up and bring you in and.
- [04:07]
B
Let'S get it iPhone credit? Well, you know what's crazy is that I like immediately thought like this already is not like your typical lawyer trajectory, especially right now. It's the approach is, you know, making sure that we hire enough team members, remote or not remote. Obviously remotes become a big thing. But you very few do. We see where it's just them and where it works, where they're not completely pulling their hair out and you know, can killing themselves and working 80 hours. So that's already kind of a unique approach. So I want to touch on that for a little bit for the people that have expanded enough to know, like you said, that I don't want to grow any further and I. I'm going to pull back because this is the life I want. I don't want a huge team. I don't want. That's. That's something that needs to be talked about more because everyone else is just create more revenue and it'll be fine. And that's not the answer.
- [04:59]
C
No, not necessarily. It is for some people. Yeah, I worked in a consultancy where that's really where I learned how to kind of grow a business. Cause we. I was a head of a team, but as part of the employee relations team, I was the only lawyer, but there were 30 other kind of consultants working in HR. So every matter that needed to be triaged or difficult ones all came to me. But they taught me in that business. I became a director as part of the business, and they taught me really how to scale, how to, you know, strategically employ and work out what areas of the business, what target market, all of the things that you need to make sure that you've got your vision right. But the thing for me was in my business, I became. I'm very agile. I was very giving as an employee. I had a lot of time for other people. I'm not sure that that translated necessarily into hourly rate occasionally, because the hourly rate business, in terms of when you're giving so much to so many people, you know, I was working 60 or more hours a week to try and get my work done, but also to support others and mentor and, you know, provide advice on things. And it was, it was, it was an interesting, very stressful time for me. But I'm very agile on my own. I have a great network of people I can tap into. And I constantly have virtual coffees with people that I think, oh, I like you and what you do. Let's have a chat about how we can work together. You know, and the law is not always that way. I found that, you know, lawyers are not as trusting of other law firms because they look at you and think, oh, you know, you could. What are you going to do? And take all my clients and that kind of thing and then run off into the sunset. But I think that that's why I do law differently. I guess that's why my clients love me, because I have a different way of thinking and that I can see natural collaborations between people. I meet people I go, oh, you need to meet that person. And I bring them together, you know, so I do that for myself, too. But I'm very agile. My business has no overheads. It's just me. And, you know, I don't run overdrafts, I don't have debts. I don't have all of the things that I had when I had the bigger lot of staff, you know, seven or more staff. And my time is really precious to me now. I've given a lot over the years. I've mentored a lot of people like, you know, into being a lawyer, into being a HR manager or. And they've all gone on to great things. But I've had the period in December last year, I was looking at my bottom line thinking, what in the hell am I doing? This government that's in Australia at the moment, they're taxing small business like our taxes are ridiculous here. Just they actually tax you in advance of the way. Yeah. What they call you business taxes. So you're always behind the eight ball before you start. So even if you have a lean month, you've already paid your tax. You know, that's the hangover from COVID I think. But anyway, yeah, so that's where I'm at at the moment. I'm very comfortable. I most certainly work four days a week. I'm very, very, very good with boundaries with clients now. Whereas, you know, I'd get a matter in, in the middle of the night and I'd have it by 6 o' clock in the morning. I'd have it in their inbox going, this is my advice, this is what we need to do. But what that creates for me, what that created for me was that there was a little bit of people pleasing in there. But there's a big part of it that I just want to do a good job, Ron. I just want to get you the best possible outcome you can possibly get, I think at a personal toll in terms of your, you as a person and your, the effort that you have to put into everything because you're running out of very, you know, a lot of cortisol, a lot of, you know, you don't exercise, you don't look after yourself, you eat on the run, you, you know, you constantly. And I mean, I put on, well, I was about 130something kilos, which I don't know what that is in pounds, but I'm down, you know, well below a hundred now. I'm still heading down, but a lot of that I put down to other. I did have weight loss surgery, but I've had to rethink my life and put very, very strict boundaries in terms of, of the clients, my lifestyle, my health, my family, you know, my peace of mind.
- [09:50]
B
Far too often like that is the, the norm. Right. It's, this is what happens until you're pushed into a space of you either make the decision or for, you know, a lot of people that had worked with us, that their bodies made the decision for them that they can't continue on like this. And then it's late and then what do we do now? So, yeah, I think that that's a very. I always am a person that says, you know, have this goal in your mind, you want to do it, do it, do it, achieve it, feel it, experience it. Because I guarantee you on the backside of that, you're going to be like, okay, I don't want this anymore. And sometimes that looks like falling back to something that's more comfortable or maybe it's something else.
- [10:30]
C
But that's the thing I had to get over myself. That. The idea that what other people thought of me going back into a very lean business and being, you know, being on my own, and whether I'd. Whether there was an this attitude or this idea that I had failed in some way, whereas it's been a very conscious choice. And it was. It was because, as I said, I was giving way too much of my time, you know, mentoring and training people and getting them to where they needed to go. I needed to be very blinkered on in what I needed to do and be very clear on what I wanted, because this is it. We've only got one go at this, you know, and when you're spreading yourself so thin between everything, you know, there is no space for you. There is no space for what you want because it's everybody else's. You've got your clients, your staff, you know, your family, your everybody. Everything is pulling you all over the place. And, yeah, I had to be very, very singularly minded about what I wanted to do. And it's really paid off for me in terms of just my peace of mind, you know, the balance, the work life balance that I have. And my phone doesn't ring anywhere near as much as it used to. I used to get anxiety. Oh, God, what's happened now? Because all the long staff worked remotely, so you'd be constantly.
- [12:04]
B
So what would you say?
- [12:05]
C
What.
- [12:05]
B
What would be like a way if someone that's listening is experiencing this right now? And I think that once you get to this point and you're experiencing that, I feel like there's always the feeling that there's no way out. I don't know where to start. What do I even do to stop this spiral? What would be an example or something that you could offer them that they could do immediately?
- [12:27]
C
Yeah, they. They need to get real with themselves, you know, and what's not working and what is working? I mean, not everything's not working right. So, you know, what is working well? What lights me up? What. What is it about my day that's draining me and making my, you know, if it's a situation, for example, like, I mean, I deal with people all day long with staff, and they said that is the most taxing part of their day. They lights a lot of people up. I get that and I understand that. But if it's draining you and you are finding it's Just too much. You're not getting your work done. You know, it's. It. You've just gotta have a look at it. I had a look at the things that I really didn't like about, about being a business owner. One of them is the financial side of it. But you have to have enough skin in that game. You cannot hand it over completely to someone to manage. Cause that's just ridiculous. So you've got to know enough about it, but also outsource all the things about it you don't like. I got a really good bookkeeper. I did, you know. It. Oh my God. It. I was doing all of my own it. I just went and got a young guy who is really, really, really costly. He does all my. I just ring him. He goes, gets on my computer, fixes it all done. I don't spend hours worrying about things anymore, you know, so get real on the things that are. That are not working for you, but also celebrate the things that are. Because it's not all bad. And then start to make some difficult decisions. Get some coaching. I mean, Bridget, you do this for a living. You know, you coach people into ways of being able to run a law firm that you know is profitable but also successful. But that's what is your measure of success. You know, if my measure of success is what other people thought of me, I would have been done years ago. It's what I think of myself and how I, how I show up every day for myself and make hard decisions and, you know, are able to move through my life and be. Feel good about myself in terms of. I know I'm a good grandmother. I'm a great parent, I'm an awesome wife. You know, I, I do all of those things at one time in my life because I was so, you know, lawyers are so bloody just driven to succeed. Right? You come out of the box after you, after you do law school, whether you did it, you know, in the 40s like I did, or in your 20s. And you are, you are absolutely, given that power thing, say, okay, you can make as much of this as you want, you know, and it's. It is a little. It's a little overwhelming at first. You think, oh, oh, you know, I'm quite. I mean, I had some really good skills and I, I didn't have a lot of luck in terms of. Of people, you know, mentoring me or showing me how to do things. But what I did have was. I always call it. I'm scrappy. I don't know if they use that word. In America, I just am one of those people that can think on my feet. I can always think of it. It's rocking. Work out what, you know, the worst problem, let's fix that, you know, know. And that's was my kind of thing.
- [15:37]
B
But yeah, anyway, majority of people, it's missing two things. Like, like a real vision, like wanting to be a have a successful law firm is not the full vision. That's what everybody wants. Right. But like the real vision of what does that mean to you? What does that look like? And then asking the tougher questions of what does that look like personally? What are you, you know, what is, what are you getting paid? What is the time that you're putting in? What is, you know, I think it's always opposite from what I see now, the law firm runs their personal life instead of, you know, it being a benefit to your personal life. So it's a hard concept. And I think people, they think it, but I don't think they understand that putting it, really putting it down on a piece of paper and creating a plan around that is what we focus on. I think it, our minds want to go to like the standard. I just have to have a regular business plan. It should, you know, it needs to look like X, Y and Z. And that's just not the case anymore. And businesses just tend to burn people out if it's not.
- [16:37]
C
Well, see, you ask every single business owner that ever started a business, they want freedom. That's all they want is freedom. The problem is, is that the, the business itself becomes your prison in some ways because you're so busy working in it and on it and doing all the things because you're good at the time, the actual work itself. But there's so much more to do when you're, you know, I mean, I used to spend all weekend doing, you know, payroll and reviews and all of the things that, you know, and they're things that you must do because your business doesn't work without them. And you know, it was taxing and really difficult. But what I, what I worked out is that I needed to work out really what, what was reasonable in terms of revenue. Okay, what does my hourly rate need to look like and how many hours a week do I need to get there? In all honesty, and you've got to be honest with yourself, if you can work more than 25 hours a week in terms of un. Billable work on your own, then you're doing very well because, you know, all of the other stuff that takes time. I mean, if you've got a model like mine where you've got monthly subscriptions and you've got, you know, some passive income coming in and some bits and pieces, you can, you can have a couple, you can have Fridays off. If you don't want to have to work, you've just got to think of, of. For me it was about working out what the pro, what your client's problems are and finding solutions to it. How can you find solutions that, that are able to, to in your business? You know, most businesses have. Well, my business has three model, three tier model, basic, middle and then you know, the, the high end stuff. But I mean, you know, in, in between that. I'm very privileged in that whilst I run a consultancy, the legal work still ticks over. And of course, you know, legal work because of the amount of hours you spend on that, in between everything else, you do make reasonable money on your legal work because you know, just in this country, an unfair dismissal. I used to, I, when I first started, I was actually charging a fixed rate for my unfair dismissals and I realized when I actually did some numbers on it, my God, I was ripping myself off. I did it because, I did it because I thought, oh, people will buy it, but they're gonna anyway.
- [19:07]
B
Yes, I know, yes, that's a term right there that I think every lawyer right now listening should ask themselves based on. I don't care if, if you have flat rates, if you have billable hours or, or what practice area you are in, are you ripping yourself off first? And if you are, that's where we need to start looking at because I think far too often that is the case.
- [19:32]
C
Yeah, there's a lot of revenue leakage when you, when you look at it because you're, you think you're gonna spend 10 hours on something. And also one of the things that someone told me once that was that if people are buying you without even question, you're too cheap.
- [19:49]
B
Yes. That's a very good.
- [19:52]
C
Yeah. If they say yes straight away, as soon as you're in and even if it's your primary price, your premium price, then you need to look at it again. I mean, this year I found my sweet spot. I've had a few no's for the first time in five years, I've had a few clients say no. And I've thought, well, that's okay. At first it felt very uncomfortable. But you have to be prepared, you know, because that other job's gonna come in at that rate. So you have to be prepared. I mean, if you really want the job, obviously. I mean, I don't agree with it. I would never do it. You could go and change your hourly rate or put it in a package for somebody, but I wouldn't do that because my boundary is too high. Now, once upon a time, I would've, you know, bid against myself, but not anymore. I refuse to do that because I know how good I am at my job and I know that my clients buy me every day of the week. You know, at that rate.
- [20:49]
A
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- [21:14]
B
Kind of another topic with talking about teens and employees because so many, you know, lawyers that listen to this podcast, so many lawyers that work with us, they are growing. They want to grow, they want to scale. And with that comes larger teams hiring. And something that you talk about a lot that I think I want to touch on is psychological safety. And. And I know that a lot of lawyers are going to roll their eyes and be like, oh, my God, this is like HR terms, HR buzzwords. I don't want to deal with that. No, no, no. But I really want to talk about, like, why it's actually critical for their performance and their profitability. I have a woman who we work with who is a prime example of it.
- [21:54]
C
And.
- [21:55]
B
And I think it's not discussed enough. It's not put out there enough. And I think that understanding it is super important, especially if you're scaling, if you're going to continue to scale and continue to add employees. I think it's an important conversation.
- [22:09]
C
Well, see, it really starts with educating your employees and making sure that they understand what platform your company has. It's almost, in some ways, if you set people up at the beginning of the business, when you first start working with people and you make sure you do really good onboarding, that you have resources for staff, it's once upon a time, you used to be able to employ staff and that. And then give them an employment contract and put them on their way and say, off you go. Here's your billable rate. Here you go, do this, you know, and you work for that partner, and you do. You do it. But the problem is these days is that it starts from the very beginning of when you employ people, making sure you have all of your policies, all of the communication in place correctly, but also resources for people if things happen. Because look, the reality of our world is that family structures, you know, online media problems, all of the things that happen. People's, people's lives are a lot more complicated than they used to be. People are much more honest, are much more forthcoming about their, about their psychological issues that they might have. And you know, it's one of those things that as an employer it's very important to create that safety from the beginning, but make sure that you have feedback loops, that you have mentors inside law firms, that you have places where people can go if they need to reach out for help. It's almost like if I'm talking to a senior lawyer who says, you know what, I'm just trying to run a business here, I don't need all this crap in my business, but I'm telling you, it will pay you dividends. Because people, when they feel safe, when they feel supported, when they've got good feedback, when they've got good systems in place, communications, right, you know, there's actual check ins with people, real check ins, not just, you know, you did well on that file. Thanks very much for that. See you later. You know, because the thing is in the law, one of the things that I, that I noticed is that in hr, particularly in the industries that I work in, I do a lot of work in aged care and disability. I remember this, this time when this, we went into this job and there are times when aged care, because of the way that our, we have a lot of compliance here and there was a big issue in this particular place and we were asked to go in, I was asked to lead a team in and the, all the structures of the business, the CEO was, was leaving. You know, there was a, the board was in an absolute disarray, there was a whole problem. The HR people walked out. So I had a team of four of us in there and what we were trying to do, I mean everything from payroll to make sure that the, the rosters were being run. It was just crazy, right? And there was a new girl that started with me. And my CEO said to me, would you please on the way. Cause it was a two and a half hour drive to get there every day from where we were living. And we'd be on site at like 7 o' clock in the morning because that's when the a.m. shift started to make sure that everything was going okay. And she said, would you mind checking in with everyone on the way home? And I rang this girl and she was inconsolable on the phone, like I could not understand her. She's driving. I said, you need to pull over your car. She said, karen, this is so difficult. I said. She said, there's so many problems here. How can we fix them all? I said, we can't. We can't fix them all. And you're not going to fix them all. All that we can do is support each other and be able to go out of there every day knowing we've done all the things that we can do. That's all we can do. We cannot fix everything. And yes, the residents in the facility at risk, and yes, we've got this, and yes, we've got that. But, you know, we've done everything we can to make sure all of those things, those shifts are staffed. Yeah, shifts are staffed and we've got all of the things in place. We've made sure that we've communicated the best we can. We've sent all our messages of support out to the staff. You know, the board knows exactly that. We know what we're doing. We've safeguarded ourselves. Now we've got to look, when we leave, we've got to look after ourselves and make sure our mental health and our wellbeing, you know, go home. I've been one of those people that's gone home. And the first thing you do is grab a glass of wine. I mean, there's nothing wrong with a glass of wine. But it's not a solution to stress, you know, it's just not a solution to stress if you've got other ways of doing it, you know, and. And what I. What I would worked with her on is, is how to. Is how to create boundaries, how to be, how to verbalize what was going on. If she's in uncomfortable in a situation, she needs to talk about it. She needs to say something in a safe way. Because what happens to a lot of people is when they're feeling very vulnerable, it comes out in a way that's sometimes angry or she starts to cry and then she feels like she loses her. I don't know, you know, her brand in the office, in the organization, in the. Wherever. She. She can't cry on a client site, you know, and it freaks her out because she's emotional, you know, and this particular girl was the same. She used to say to me, karen, I. Every time someone pushes me, I. I burst into tears. And I know I've seen it in law firms. I've done work for Law firms, I've seen that. And the eye rolling. Oh, here we go again. You know, and the problem is it's about safety, creating a safe place. Because I don't know if you're the same. If someone asks me if I'm okay and I'm not okay, I burst into tears too, you know, because, you know, it's one of those things. Very rarely do people really genuinely ask you, are you okay? You know, and do you need anything?
- [28:06]
B
I know. So our team works with a lot of team members of lawyers. And I get a lot of our team coming to us, asking me, how do I handle this, how do I handle that? And it's, it's generally because there's not a lot of ability to have the conversations, you know, with, with their team, with the other lawyers, with. And it becomes friction and then the job doesn't get done. And then, you know, we have the lawyer who is our actual client, who's upset, but it's really their team number that's not doing the work. And it's all because they're not willing to talk to each other. And it happens more often than I'd like to say. And I think part of it is probably the world we're in, whereas we're all remote, so we're not physically in front of each other where we can't just hammer this problem out and be done. But I think a lot of it does have to do with the fear of saying the wrong thing, doing the wrong thing. So instead of I'm just going to sit back and I'm just not going to do anything, I'm not going to say anything, I'm going to be the fly in the wall. I'm just going to do the job. And I think that that breeds exactly, you know, what your person was experiencing. And on more than that, the job's not getting done that, that everybody in the office could have done. One of the things that I always tell the lawyers is, listen, if you're planning on growing the team that you have, number one, who in your office right now has been with you long enough that, that you can put in charge of this team, they need to have somebody they can go to that's not you, because you're already overworked, overburdened, it's too much. And that burden on you is just going to make things worse and things aren't going to work properly. And they're usually shocked at that. Like, what do you mean? I'm like, you can't be that person Right. They can't be. We actually do like intake training and do like mock calls with their intakers and the lawyers constantly want to be on those calls and it shuts down the team. They don't want to do it. They're scared, they're terrified. We have to pull them aside and say, listen, you can watch the recordings, but we aren't going to get the most training out of your team and the best instruction for them if you're constantly micromanaging every single step that they take.
- [30:09]
C
There's a. There's a. Look, the first point you made was the. The fear of conflict, which I think is hilarious when you think about what we do for a job, constantly in conflict with somebody. You know, I just think it's. I think it's hilarious. But the, the thing is, the conflict piece within the office is there's people. People have fear for a few reasons. They've got to unpack why the fear is of conflict. So just because you address something with someone doesn't mean there's necessarily gonna be conflict. The thing for me that I've found in, in the way that I deal with the most difficult people who have absolutely no idea that their behaviour is affecting people, the way that it is, is that you ask questions rather than making statements about people. Right? Because is it. You know, it's very different to say, look, you come into work every morning, you don't even speak to anybody, you walk past the receptionist, you're always in a bad mood, blah, blah, blah. Now, there's a lot of blame in that sentence, right? But if you start the conversation with, I have made some observations. Sometimes when you come into work, you don't seem that happy. That's my observation. Talk to me about that. Is there anything going on for you? Are you overwhelmed with the work? Is there something going on at home? You know, that kind of thing. And then it sort of goes from there. You've got to. People put people at ease in the situation and be able to communicate that in a. In an honest way. People think that if you ignore something, it'll eventually. They'll eventually find out that or they'll eventually discover what it is. They won't. And the thing is, what it also then breeds is this sense of entitlement. Well, I've been getting away with this for years. Why has no one ever addressed it with me? I don't understand why you're now bringing it to me. I've been doing this for years, you know, and they kind of. There's this big Shift between where they were and where they need to be. Whereas if the feedback is constant. And I think one of the things that I found working with lawyers over the years, and I've done work for lawyers as well as worked with them, obviously. But you know, one of the things that I found is that there's not a lot of time to be vulnerable because most of us wear a mask when we're in our, when we're in our, you know, sweet spot, when we're working with their client and we're working with the other lawyers and we are writing these kick ass letters and we're, you know, on these, in the. I don't do a lot of court work, but I do a bit of mediation and things like that. But, you know, when you're there and you're in the flight, it's fantastic. I love it. I do, I love it. You know, long, long gone, my masks. I am who I am now. I bring all of the things that make me who I am. But I know a lot of people wear masks, which doesn't leave a lot of time for vulnerability or for those, those conversations that bring about that clarity between yourself and another employee that allows them to see who you are so that they understand. Because the thing is, you've got to see who that person is as a human being. The work is important because we are trying to make money, we're trying to give our clients the best outcomes and do all the things. The problem is, is that the people that are with you need to understand who they're working for and feel confident in their abilities. If they don't get feedback, if they're not sure about things, if they only get grunted at or had a file chucked at them. I know that people are busy and I know that they don't realize they're doing it, but it's, it's behavior that, you know, it doesn't take a lot of time to say, good morning, how are you? How's your son going this week? I know he was sick last week.
- [34:08]
B
Yeah, I think that, that it's more than. Because I hate using the, the terminology. Especially, you know, if you're a business owner and you're a CEO, there, there has to be the separation of like, this is not, you know, a family because then you start skewing the lines of things. This is a team. We are collective, we are here. We are on one goal. But I think if you don't bring that team in as, you know, understanding the vision, understanding where we're going so that they feel a part of every step like it. There's no success without each one of you being here. I think that that's a missing piece. I think people tend to feel taken advantage of. And yes, I'm showing up and you are paying me to show up here and do this. But people inherently want more than that. They want to be more, they want to have more, they want to feel a part of something. And I think that if this isn't something that you're comfortable with doing, this is why you hire somebody to help you establish it and get it done and have somebody to do those check ins. I always say that whether or not you as the lawyer can do it or can't do it, or want or don't want to do it, sometimes there needs to be a buffer between you and them so that you can get the truth of what's going on. And I've always been the type of person that I learned a long time ago from my corporate days that no intermediate people, like, I only want to go to the top because they're the ones that are making the decisions and that's who I, that's all I want to talk to. But that's also, it can, it's a double edged sword because you got to be comfortable with the feedback that comes from, from that. And it's short and it's not a lot of, there's not a lot of emotion in it. It's, this is what it is. And so if you know that, that you're that person who needs that type of feedback, that may not be the person that you want to go to. You know, there's got to be an intermediary person to do that. So if for lawyers that are listening now that realize that they need to address culture issues or they're realizing that they have culture issues, they're already overwhelmed. Maybe they don't have somebody to help them address it or even know where to begin. Where should they start? Like, what's a minimum viable approach for them to kind of start the process?
- [36:15]
C
See, the thing is, I know a lot of lawyers will hear culture and you know, all that kind of stuff and go, oh, it's fluffy. What do we need that for? We just, we're providing a really great legal service here and we, you know, and it's, what do we need all that stuff for? The thing is, people bought. People want to be part of something bigger than themselves, right? They want to know that they are an integral part of something and that they align to that vision of that. And you're absolutely right. You need to be able to bring your people along that vision and along those values to make sure what is it that we value here? If, if it is hard work, then put it as one of your values, you know, because that will put some people off. They won't want to go there. But you know, it's also about inclusivity. It's about being able to be able to, to be part of that vision and work towards that. Because that's as human beings what we want. We want to be able to be part of something bigger than ourselves and know that we are an integral part of that as a team. And where do they start? They really start exactly what I said with, you know, if you don't like something, look at the things that are working well and look at the things that aren't working well. And then basically have a really hard look at yourself and say, okay, what are the things that contribute to the things that aren't working well? You know, is it a particular person's way of managing something? Well, then the answer is you've got to address it in some way, you know, because generally what happens with culture is that, you know, you've usually got most people, depending on the personality profiling you've got in your, in your office, most people just kind of go along with the flow. You know, they come to work every day, they contribute, they get to know each other and they, they, they go home and they live their lives. But there are some people that are outstanding in your, in your business who really are. They form the culture. They're your unofficial leaders, or they could be an official leader, but they're your unofficial leaders. They're the ones that are always the ones that are first to go, okay, let's have this idea or that idea. You've got to recognize all those people in your business that are actually bringing up the vibe and the culture of your organization and use them for their absolute purpose. Because, you know, they are the ones that are championing for all the ones that don't ever say anything, right? So never cut those people off at the knees. Make sure that they know that they're valued. But then you've got, I mean, I work a lot of the CEOs I work with in that very direct, you know, build up vision. But the problem is, is that they're very good at what they do. They are able to, to work with the board or whoever it is they're working with. They're able to, to, you know, they're constantly building. They're constantly making sure that the business is doing well, and they're great with the clients.
- [39:23]
B
They're.
- [39:23]
C
The problem is that they're not great at bringing everybody along on the journey. So if you have to take a really hard stock, look at yourself and say, listen, when I, for example, I give someone a job and it's not done quickly or in the timeframe that I want it done, and then I do it myself, or what you're saying to people without saying it is, look, I can do it myself. I don't need you to do it. And they think, and then they feel as if they're not valued. And look, it's frustrating. I have done it myself. I have redone work for people. I have, you know, got work and thought, oh, my God, I haven't got time for this. I cannot give it back to them. But all I can say to you is make sure that if. If you decide to do things like that, you make sure you communicate with them and say, listen, this is why I did it. But next time, like, let's try something different. You know, you've got to keep at it. You've got to be able to let go of things and be able to trust your staff. And that creates that. That creates that beautiful autonomy with people. Eventually, it does take time, and you've got to trust the process, but that creates a really great culture where everybody's operating together but in their own specialties and working with you, and you're able to communicate well, your needs, people are listening, you feel like you're being heard. There's, you know, and it starts to create a beautiful flow of, you know, and if there are people in your business that are not. That are not aligned with that, you have to make hard decisions. And I know there's people listening to this podcast who will go, that person's been in this. In this place for 10 years. And they. Every time I know they are creating a culture that I don't want in the business, that you need to make a hard decision.
- [41:17]
B
Yeah, that goes along with. I used to say, when lawyers would come in and they were fairly new, you know, let's look at your mvv. Do you know what it is? What's your mission? Business values. Let's just start with the foundational part first. This is not a business plan. This is what is your mission? You know, the values and vision. That way you can translate that to your team. But what I've noticed is, is even those that have been doing it for years. And they're, you know, they're scaled to where they want to go. If I ask them, when's the last time you've actually looked at your mission vision values and, and updated it and actually understood where you're at and if your team understands it? Usually I get the blank stare. Like, I probably never, like, I've never relooked at it. And I'm like, so 10 years ago, what your mission was and your values were probably changed at this point. And your team needs to understand that. They need to know it. They need to know the direction that everybody's moving in. And I actually had someone along the points of, you know, making the hard decisions of letting people go. I think when you're, you know, what is the concept? They say, you know, buy or fast, higher slow or whatever that is. But understanding that just because somebody maybe has the education that you're looking for in this, in whatever role you're trying to fill, if they don't fit into your mission vision values, they're probably not going to be a fit in the long run. And so looking at, and asking those questions up front is super important. I think that gets skipped. Everybody just wants to know, you know, can you do the job? How many years experience do you have? What. What do you want to get paid? And then we'll just hire you. And experiencing that on our side as well, usually that's where you get burned. They're not a good fit. You know it, you know it mentally, you know it's. You can experience it by asking the questions, and yet you still bring them in and end up, you know, either having to let them go or they end up being, you know, a cancer inside of, you know, great employees that.
- [43:15]
C
You have, people don't. I don't think people start out that way. I think if they're not necessarily a cultural fit, and when you look at your culture, you've got to be really hard on yourself. Do we have a. Do we have a thriving culture? Do we have somewhere, somewhere that people can come and they know that they're safe here and they. That they've got, you know, they've got good work to do, they've got good support, they've got good training, they've got good opportunities, all of the things that make, things that make a place good culture? And the thing is, I don't think people start out that way. I think when they come, they. They want to fit the culture. They have the idea that they will. But the problem is, is that things happen along the way. And they don't get. Ideally, for example, even if someone doesn't, if you promise them you're going to have a, do a review of their remuneration in six months and you don't do it, most people won't say anything. They'll just get cranky and they just want yes. And they just. And then all of a sudden you've got somebody who's got an attitude and you think, what the hell's that about? I don't even know what that's about, you know, because I do a lot of work in my outsourced HR business. I quite often it will do even the onboarding for people because I'm so, I'm such a big fan of it and the idea of an outsider who. Because a lot of the little companies that I work for don't have HR at all. So I do everything from start to finish. And so, you know, you interview the person, you do the reference check. I don't mind doing that for people. I love doing it actually. And then we get them off on the right foot. But I always say to them, always. And I put a diary note in the CEO or in the, whoever it is that you need to do that remuneration review at six months and make sure that you do. You give them feedback about how they're going because that is the key. I think a lot of people just miss those milestones. Oh, have you been here six months? Oh no. If you've been here 12 and they don't even know how long you've been there, you know what I mean? And it's. People just become what they call in the, in HR world, they call them underminers and they become they wide answer business. They, they usually form groups of people that are unhappy and they do the water cooler talk and they go out for drinks and I just see what he did today, blah, blah, blah, you know, and they're just undermining a lot of the time. And you know what? They may or may not have have a good reason to do that. But if you've got, I mean if you are somebody who feels you're in that undermining space at the moment, you are the only one that can change that. Nobody else. I mean, what you need to do is learn to say what you need. You need to make sure that you speak up for yourself. And if you had, they have missed your 6 month or they have mixed your review or they've there's something that you don't like, say it, talk about it. It's not the end of the world. Because be fear then that you will become an underminer. And believe me, one day that will cause problems for you. Because.
- [46:25]
B
Well, and I'm gonna say that in the nicest fashion to all of the lawyers listening, sometimes that underminer is you.
- [46:34]
C
Yes.
- [46:34]
B
And the hard look in the mirror is understanding that you're the one undermining everything. And that's the hardest thing to kind of recognize for yourself. And sometimes I think they do recognize it. Nobody wants to be the one to raise their hand and say, you know, I'm the one causing all the problems and now I need to fix it. But just coming and realizing that and then taking baby steps to fixing that, because Type A Bridget.
- [47:01]
C
Yes. I mean, to go, ah, I'm actually. I'm actually struggling. I'm actually struggling at the moment. I really. I mean, a lot of you go through phases where you love your job and then you don't love your job, and then you love your job. It's. It's always a cycle. There's elements of your job you love, but you get to the point where you're like, what am I doing? Why am I here? You know, and that's what I did last year. That's what I did at the end of last year. I said, you know what? There are things I really don't like about my job. And I wanted to fall in love with my job and my life again. And that's what I did. I made some very hard decisions about my own role in where I got to. By giving too much, by not. Not doing the things that I love and not filling my own cup, not looking after myself, not doing all of the things, you know, your relationships suffer, your relationships at work suffer. You know, there's. It's. If it's. It's not all bad, but there are bits that are, you know, a problem. If there are bits of the problem you need to make. So be vulnerable with yourself. You know, you're. You are human being. We're faulted. And you know what? The biggest shifts and the biggest changes in my life and my. My clients life, I guess, is when they get tough with themselves, when they make that revelation. Oh, my God, I can't believe this is. I did this. I did this. You know, and I need to run.
- [48:27]
B
Great. Because usually I always ask every guest at the end, I always like to leave everyone with one actionable thing that they can take away from the conversation. But I think that you just nailed it as the action, like, take a Good, hard look and be vulnerable with yourself. Look at where the problems are. If the problems are you, then you know where to start. If the problems are issues in your office that can be rectified, you know where to start. If there's people issues. I mean, I think the, the. The hardest part is taking that first step and just, you know, looking at yourself and you don't have to raise your hand and tell everyone and, and let everyone know, but you have to start somewhere. And if you need help with that, then you've got to look for that help. You can't just keep sweeping it under the rug.
- [49:18]
C
Oh, no, not at all. And can reach out to people like yourself that, you know, that have that expertise and is able to unpack it for people. And I mean, my offering, I guess, to people all over the world, whoever I do, I do a lot of these podcasts and a lot of the time my message really is. Is about. Is about self and self management and being able to. To. Yeah, to be able to create a life that. That is incredible and that you can be proud of. And the thing is, I know that being a lawyer and being an awesome human in terms of being able to do all the things that we do and the way our brains think and the way that people love the problem solving and that kind of thing. Yes, it's a gift. And I absolutely, I'm so blessed that I have that gift as well. But the gift, the other gift that I have is being able to show people how to do this. I guess, too, that through my story, I think people really will be able to resonate and say, okay. Oh, okay. I need to do something. I sat on the beach last year, early this year, love. There's a little beach not far from where I live, and I just had this moment where I realized you spend all year working to spend a week on the beach, and it takes you a week for your nervous system to unravel from all of the stuff that you're doing. And I took a video of myself on that beach, not for anybody else, just for myself, just to remind myself of that moment, to bring those moments into my life more often. You know, make sure that the sun's on your face, make sure that you get that time to spend time with family, actual quality time, not the getting up every morning, getting their lunches ready, out to school, all this stuff, that quality time with people. Because that's what fills you up. That's what fills you up, you know? Yeah.
- [51:15]
B
I think, thankfully, that's an amazing place. To leave that because everyone. I don't care if you're practicing law or if you are, you know, working at the store down the street, everyone needs to have and hear that. And really, it's one thing, I think, to hear it and to know in your mind, you know? Yeah, yeah, I know that. And it's another thing to feel it in your heart and actually take the steps to implement it. That's the biggest thing. You know, we can talk a lot, we can say a lot of things, but if we're not willing to. To take the steps to do it, it doesn't change anything. So I appreciate you coming on. And if you want to connect with Karen, we will have all of that in the show. Notes where you can reach out to her, where you can connect with her. And if you have any other questions for her, she'll be able to, you know, answer those for you. I appreciate you coming on.
- [52:06]
C
You're so welcome, Bridget. You have a nice evening, and I'll talk to you again.
- [52:11]
B
Thank you.
- [52:13]
A
That's the Law Entrepreneur for today. I'm Sam Malai. I appreciate you listening. Subscribe to the Law Entrepreneur for more legal content and practical growth plays.