← The Law Entrepreneur
The Law Entrepreneur
461. Second Chances and Social Justice: Designing a Law Firm Around Your Values with Amanda DuBois
00:39:42
Loading summary
Transcript60 lines
- [00:03]
A
Sam Alai. Here at the Law Entrepreneur, with our host, Bridget Norris, we focus on law firm strategies for law firm growth. Practical plays to help scale firms for every shape, size, and practice. It's time to talk about scaling. Let's have some fun.
- [00:24]
B
I believe the legal profession a values problem. We're taught to separate who we are from what we do, to check our principles at the door, to build practices that generate profit while ignoring purpose. What if that's completely backwards? What if the most successful law firms aren't built despite their values, but because of them? I'm Bridget Norris, and today we are exploring a revolutionary concept. Designing your legal practice as a direct reflection of your deepest values. We're not talking about adding a pro bono program or hanging a diversity poster in your lobby. We're talking about fundamentally architecting your business model, your hiring practices, your client relationships, and your operational systems around what you actually believe. Because the uncomfortable truth is if your business doesn't reflect your values, you're not building a practice. You're building a prison. Today, you're going to discover how to break free from that prison and create a law firm that honors both your principles and your profitability. This is more than business strategy. It's a blueprint for authentic leadership in law. Let's dive in. All right. Welcome, Amanda. I'm super excited to have you. If you want to start by sharing a little bit about yourself, who you are, what you do.
- [01:47]
C
Thanks for having me. This is super fun. My name is Amanda Dubois and I'm a lawyer in Seattle, Washington, and I am celebrating my 30th year anniversary owning a law firm and as being one of the longest standing women owned law firms in the city of Seattle and probably in the state of Washington. So I'm super excited about that and things are going strong.
- [02:09]
B
That is amazing.
- [02:11]
C
It kind of came a surprise to me because we were doing some marketing thing and they're like, how long have you been doing this? And I'm like, 30 years, so. 30 years. So here we go.
- [02:21]
B
That I think the stat, though, that the longest women owned, I mean, obviously I think I'm looking at paying attention to the stats right now. And I think the women owned and attorneys, the percentages are catching up to men, I think now. But I think that there's obviously still a leadership, huge leadership gap. But that's pretty amazing. 30 years is. Is a long time.
- [02:43]
C
Well, I think what's super cool that I'm seeing right now is a lot of. It seems like it's a time when a lot of women have gotten to a place in their law practice because you kind of want to feel like you know what you're doing as a lawyer to take the jump to starting your own practice. And I feel like that's starting to. I'm seeing some movement in that direction, so that's exciting.
- [03:00]
B
So you're saying that. How do I say this in a nice fashion? So women want to learn how to be a lawyer before they open a business, whereas men are like, I'll just open a business and figure out how to be a lawyer at the same time.
- [03:11]
C
Or I'll just work my way up. I'll elbow my way up in the business that I'm in and, you know, kind of act smarter than I am to get to where I want to be. So same thing. Yeah.
- [03:20]
B
Oh, okay. So I really kind of want to dive into. And this is something that I actually had a conversation with yesterday on your practice. And really having a values based practice as a priority over what everybody wants. Obviously, revenue is important and obviously we touched on that. We talk about it, but I feel like a lot of times right now I'm discussing revenue as the most important concept, period, end of story. Whether it's even profit or whether it's culture or whether it's just money. Money. Clients show me the money type and I'm like, there's gotta be a conversation about the rest of it.
- [03:58]
C
Yeah, well, I'm gonna push back on that idea a little bit. To me and my experience, after having done this for like a long time now, the revenue follows the culture and the satisfaction and the personal growth and things that happen. Like, the revenue to me was never the goal, but the revenue's been insanely good. But it was never, let's see how much money we can make. It's more like, let's build the culture we want to build, let's find the clients we want to do. Let's do really excellent legal work. Let's be involved in our community. And when you do all those things in a way that is sort of consistent with your own personal values, the revenue takes care of itself.
- [04:35]
B
Honestly, from my experience, I think the concept of. And maybe you can expand on it, but the idea of if we're only thinking about the revenue and our entire focus is on that, I think that's probably the last thing that comes.
- [04:49]
C
Yeah, well, because it makes you scared. Because, like, I'm a little bit different about the way that I approach things. The way that I do things is this is what I want to have happen this is the vision that I want and I make it very clear in my own mind, like the kind of lawyers that I want to have and the kind of practice that I want to have and the kind of people that I want to have and the kind of environment I want to work in and all of the things. And when those pieces get in place, then it's like you create this vibe that sort of permeates your culture and it also permeates the potential clients that you talk to. And when you talk to people, they're like, they get a good feeling about this. Feels like everything about this place feels, you know, friendly and inviting and professional and you know, like excellent legal work. And so the revenue comes when all that stuff is lined up. But if you're worried all the time about your revenue, then I think the vibe you put out in the world is sort of this anxiety and panic and shortage and lack and not enough of and not good enough of or whatever it is. If you're just focused on that one little piece of it, it doesn't give you the sort of metaphysical bandwidth. And I thought that sounds kind of woo, woo, but to get your headspace into a place where can have the vision that you want to have.
- [06:03]
B
So for those that maybe do not know, and it sounds strange because I think I feel like most people would say they know what their core values are and what maybe what their vision is. But I find that a lot of people keep that in their head. It's not really written out and they don't actually look at it strategically often because, you know, things change, obviously. But I also find that most people do not tell their team. You do not have their team involved in the core values in the mission. And I think what you're saying too is if you're permeating that kind of energy, that's exactly the kind of energy your entire team is feeling.
- [06:40]
C
Well, yeah. And you talk about it and you recruit for it. I mean, you don't like, for me, like when I'm talking to a potential new, whether it's a lawyer or a receptionist or whoever it is that's going to join our team, that's part of what you're doing sort of screening for the people that have that sort of attitude and that belief system and that can. And if they don't have it right now, that at least they're willing to sort of consider it and kind of think about whether that's something that they want to be a part of. So it's kind of, you have to talk about it. I mean, you have to. At least you have to make it obvious to your team what your values are. And that should be like. For me, my values are. I guess it would be obvious because, like, I want my team to be happy and productive. And so, you know, and this an example would be, you know, when Covid happened and everybody went remote, and I've never been remote one day in my life, and pretty soon I'm. I'm literally here sitting in this little cabin in the San Juan Islands, which was my remote office for Covid. And then all of our employees went remote. And now nobody's ever really. We have a beautiful office on Lake Union in Seattle, right on the lake in a marina. And we have almost half of this little building with, you know, and people are there sometimes and they're not there sometimes. But there's no big requirement that people have to be there to be their best selves and to be their best lawyer. So, you know, people learn quickly that our culture is. We want our boys to be happy, and they're not gonna be happy if we make them come into work all the time or to the office.
- [08:05]
B
So you're so for somebody, it sounds like for you, you kind of always knew that you were building your practice based around that. For somebody who maybe has not done that or is looking to do that, what would you say would be like the first step to create a more values driven design for their practice?
- [08:24]
C
I think you have to be really honest with yourself about what your values are. So I don't think if you are someone who. And I think you should also probably challenge yourself about your values and be open to considering other things that are important to you. But there's all kinds of sort of self help books. I mean, when I was first getting started, I read all these self help books. Like, I wasn't reading books about how to run a law firm and I wasn't reading books about how to read a balance sheet and all this stuff that's way more technical. I figured I'm a pretty good lawyer and I'm never going to be a business person and I'm never going to be an accountant. So I'm not even going to try to figure that stuff out. I'm going to. I hired, you know, bookkeepers at the beginning, and now I have office managers and CEOs and stuff. But I focused on what I was really good at, which was the lawyering part of it. And then I started reading books about how to build a business, because guess what? They don't. Nobody knows how to do that. I don't care. I think even if you have an mba, the people I know with MBA seem to know the least about it because they've got rigid ideas. But to me, I'm like, okay, I want to have a law firm. And this is. I don't know how old you are, but this is funny to me. You remember that old TV show called Cheers?
- [09:29]
B
Yes.
- [09:30]
C
Where some of my younger lawyers never heard of it. And I've said I want to be like Cheers. And they're like, what's that? And I'm like, you don't even know. Norm is, come on. But I use that sort of as a mental image. Like I wanted our clients to walk in and it to be like Cheers. And people would know their name and they would care about them. And so that was really important to me. And. But I read a lot of like, I'm a woo woo person, so I let it read a lot of, you know, sort of self help books about how to create sort of the world that you want to live in and the environment that you want to be in. So if somebody's trying to do that, I would say try to get out of your head and get into your heart a little bit more.
- [10:04]
B
That, that definitely is a place to start. And I think that it maybe not so much for women, but I think for men a lot. When you ask those type of questions, it's like, why do I need to answer those? Why do I need to dig that deep? I think understanding in being willing to do it is probably, and we say that all the time, just be willing to get a little bit uncomfortable because the questions that we ask might be a little uncomfortable at first.
- [10:28]
C
And you ask them to yourself. Like you can be super uncomfortable with yourself, you know, sitting in a chair on your deck watching the sunset and start asking yourself uncomfortable questions. You know, it's not like you have to be vulnerable to the real world. It's just like, what do I really want? And I think a lot of women, I'm not a big social media person, but I'm on some of these Facebook pages with women lawyers and I see so many of them who are so unhappy and it breaks my heart. Like they hate their job or they hate the environment they're working in, or they sort of bait and switch. Like they told me I could work remote, but now I can't. And they seem so afraid to take that step to go and start their own thing. And I just see so much fear and I don't know if we're sort of in, like, I think people are maybe afraid because they think they have to do it in this sort of cultural, hierarchical, male way, you know, of like, have the partners and the, I mean, we all have partners and we have associates and all that. But like in our office, for example, we have a huddle every Monday and it's on Zoom now, so. And that's a whole team. And so there's like, I don't know, 30 people on this Zoom every Monday, and every single person in the team takes a, a turn at leading it. So that's the receptionist and the brand new legal assistant who started last week, and the CEO and the partners and every. So it's like this. It's not like it's a flat hierarchy, but it's like everybody has a place in value. And I think maybe what I see in these women that are, you know, who are afraid to leave, it's like they, I think they think they have to. If they were going to leave, they would have to do it in the sort of typical law firm way. And they don't.
- [12:03]
B
No, I agree. I think that I'm seeing a lot of being scared to do it in a way that feels good for you, because that may not look like the standard normal business, but I know that the happiest lawyers that I know are doing it the way that they want to do it and are happy to go to work. They're excited about what's happening, they're happy for their team, their team's excited to work for them. So although those things are the only things that are important, so, you know, not doing it the way that's most comfortable to you and the way that you want to do it, I mean, of course there's going to be trial and error. Some things you think are going to be amazing, may not be, and you just have to, you know, change and tweak. But I think that you're right. The saddest part of it is, is when I started searching. So three years ago, when I started working with lawyers, it was mostly men in our program. I started to realize there was a gap of, you know, women coming in and then the women that were coming in, it was such a different, you know, they had different approaches and different takes on it. And the happiest one is the one that just, I mean, she's in the program, but she just didn't listen to what everyone else was telling her and did it. And on the other side of it, you know, now everything is, you know, she's exactly where she wants to be. She's hitting her goals. She does amazing things for her team that other lawyers look at her and go, why do you do that? And she's like, because that's what I want. That's what's important to me. So I think that that's needs to be said more. And there's too many. When I was Googling and doing some research on women in law, that came up so often that they just want to leave law. Like, you went to law school because you really wanted to be a lawyer. Now you just want to quit. You just don't want to be. I'm so miserable. I just want to quit.
- [13:39]
C
There's law and then there's law firms. So you might love the law and the whole thing about what it is that you're doing, but what you don't like is the way that it's been structured into a law firm. I think that's kind of what you're saying, right?
- [13:49]
B
Yes. And I think it's what you're saying, too, is that they're miserable, either at where they're at or thinking something was going to be different. And then the terrifiedness of, I don't know enough to start my own firm. It's too scary. What do I do? I think it's a lot. It's just a lot.
- [14:04]
C
I had no idea what to do. Like, I literally was completely. I didn't even think I was a very good lawyer when I. I was a partner in a firm, and I called them the bad boys that were my partners. And I finally got away from them and started my own firm. And I didn't think I was a smart enough lawyer because they had convinced me of that. And I had no clue how to start a business. And I just started doing the next logical thing, like, okay, well, I'm going to have to find a place to be and then probably going to have to get a bookkeeper in some sort of billing system. And it wasn't like I thought it out at all. It was just like, I get a desk in an office. I'm like, well, shoot, where am I going to get some clients? And then it was like, oh, maybe I'll get a website. And was this whole, you know, unfolding thing. So I think people think it's a lot harder than it is, you know?
- [14:49]
B
Well, yeah. And I think now we're in the age of AI, in the age of, you know, information everywhere. You can start and create our founder, Sam. He Actually created a GPT where he put everything in there that you could possibly think of. If you're just starting your law firm, what to do an action plan, I'm like, and that's just basics. I'm sure it could be uploaded with a million more things. But it, I think that part. Now we have information, but now we're in the information overload sector and non implementation.
- [15:17]
C
Yeah, because I think that would slow you down. Because if you look at that big long list and say, this is what I got to do to start a law from you just go, oh no, I'm not doing that. But if you just do it sort of blindly and say, okay, well this is the next logical thing and now I should probably do this and then this is going to have to happen. And it's not that it just starts unfolding. And if you sort of have this like I keep going back to this vision in your mind of what you want it to look like. It's, you know, synchronicity happens when you sort of have a heart led vision about like the kind of clients you want and the kind of lawyers you want to work with and the kind of employees and how you want them to feel about coming to work every day. And all of those things make, create the environment for the clients and the money and all the things that you think should be your most important things to pay attention to. Those are sort of, they come after that core value part to me. And I wish there was a way to. Maybe that's what you're doing. I wish there was a way that we could communicate this to more women because I feel like, you know, I just want to give them a hug and say, come on, I will help you do this. It's not that hard. But everybody's so segmented in their own world and they're, you know, they're scared.
- [16:25]
B
Yeah. And I think what I found is the more I ask questions, the more I realize that the fear of asking those questions out loud and to other people kind of makes you feel like you're. That's less, it's worse. Like I'm already scared and I'm not sure what to do. And now I'm asking and telling somebody that I don't know what to do and that makes me feel worse. So I just, I'm not going to say anything. I'm just going to try to figure it out or not do anything.
- [16:47]
C
The good news is now that there are mentors, like when I started this, I didn't know any woman Who? I mean, I knew women lawyers, but I did. And some of them were partners in big law firms, but they weren't, you know, high up partners because it was back in the day when it was just sort of like I started lawyering when every time I went to a deposition, they brought me into the conference room to set up my court reporter equipment. They say, the court reporter is here. And I'm like, yeah, no. So we've come a long way. But my point is, I didn't really have any women entrepreneur lawyer type. It was just like it wasn't a thing. And so when you would look at the way that men had built the corporate legal world, it was so dysfunctional. I thought that I'm like, well, I can't do it like that. And I was in a law firm like that and they were awful. And I didn't ever want anybody to feel how I felt so marginalized and so kind of like, treated like I was stupid all the time.
- [17:47]
A
If your calendar is empty or chaotic, my legal academy systems help fill it with consults, streamline intake, and make marketing easy and measurable. Start your firm's growth journey today. Book a call with us@schedule.my legalacademy.com Again, that's schedule.mylegalacademy.com.
- [18:10]
B
So I know you said you've had your practice for 30 years, but have you. Did you start in law originally, like you went to law school and started in law, or did you start in another area?
- [18:22]
C
So I was a nurse before I went to law school. And so I went, I was a nurse and then I decided to go to law school, which was sort of a fluke. I didn't really have zero, I had zero interest in being a lawyer. Honestly, I was. And as a nurse, I went back to study pre med. I was halfway through this pre med program and I just realized I didn't really like it. So I thought, well, now what am I going to do? And I literally went to the bookstore one day and was going because I thought I should get an mba. And I was bought the MBA study book and right next to it was the law school study book. And I'm like, oh, law school. I never thought of that. So I went home and started the MBA study book and it was all this calculus and stuff and boring. So I grabbed the law school study book and I was really good at it. My husband came home and I said, I'm going to go to law school. And he goes, what's going to do at law school? I Don't know. But this book's easier than this book. So that was the beginning of my legal career. But what I will say about it is having come out of the health care system where, as you know, like, doctors go to medical school and then they become a resident and then they have this, like, training period. And similarly with nurses, like, we go to nursing school, and then you have preceptorships and internships and training periods. And what I learned quickly was lawyers don't have that. So when I started my own firm, it's very much a medical model. It's like every time we get a new lawyer out of law school, they sit practically next to us for a good year and just learn. And they don't take their own clients, generally speaking. And they don't. They write briefs and, you know, they do all that kind of stuff, but there's no pressure on them. There's billing pressure like everybody else, but it's not like you're thrown in to go to court by yourself when you don't know what you're doing or told to go take a deposition when you don't. And I think when I was a young lawyer, like, they would make me do stuff that I wasn't at all prepared to do, and I would ask them, which is part of the problem I had with them. I was like, why are you sending me to argue this motion when, like, there's so much depending on it and, you know, I don't know what I'm doing? And they're like, well, you just have to learn. And I'm like, well, what about the client? Like, does it. Is it really best for the client to have a lawyer who's been a lawyer for 15 minutes to be arguing this big summary judgment motion that's going to be, you know, it's. Their case is going to rise or fall on this motion. And they're like, yeah, you just have to. You got to go get your ass kicked. And I'm like, yeah, that was going.
- [20:32]
B
To be my question. Because that perspective and the way that you do it has to fundamentally change the way you serve your clients. Because at the end of the day, you're right. I didn't even think about the idea of. You just assume. I mean, when you get out of law school, you're a lawyer. When a doctor gets. They're a doctor, but that doesn't mean that they are versed in everything and understand everything yet. That's a concept I hadn't even thought of.
- [20:57]
C
No, you don't know you didn't go to law school. You don't know anything about being a lawyer. Like, nothing. And when you get out of medical school, you don't know anything about being a doctor. But they're smart enough to go do residencies and say, okay. And I was a nurse. Like, I was a nurse in a university hospital. So every June, the medical school graduates, and every July, all of a sudden, these people are doctors, and they don't have a clue what they're doing. And the nurses and the other residents train these brand new doctors who, if they have any sense, which a lot of them did, they would let you, like, they would appreciate the training. And then some of them were like, I'm a doctor, I know what I'm doing. And they were the ones who screwed things up all the time. But they. There was. And the women particularly were like, help me. Like, I'm scared and I don't know what I'm doing and help me figure this out. And so after watching the, you know, like, I was at the university for maybe three years or something before I went to medical school or law school, and I would watch how the progress of the residents and how they built confidence and how having, you know, your handheld at the beginning, you don't just go, I was labor and delivery nurse. And you don't take someone out of medical school and send them in to deliver a baby. There's too much at stake. So you gotta watch a lot. And then they gotta do some little things and then, you know, sew the episiotomy up maybe or something. But they don't, like, take full charge of a patient. And so that's why I do my law firm. So it's different.
- [22:14]
B
How do you think that, that, like, for somebody who. Because I. A lot of lawyers that we talk to right now are the biggest, you know, problem that they have right now is getting associates, getting attorneys, and getting someone to come on. And so obviously, the initial thing is I need somebod with experience, because obviously people are like, I don't want to train. I don't want to deal with the fact that I have to train somebody. But I think in this right now, in this day and age, it's easier to get somebody that you need to train and being willing to do that. So how has that affected the people that have come and work for you? I'm assuming. I mean, obviously being a lawyer is long hours. It could be an emotional toll on yourself, on your family. So there has to be, you know, a. Well, being part of it for your employees?
- [22:55]
C
Well, they feel safe. I mean, they come to our firm and they don't feel. They don't have that feeling that I sort of was describing where someone just tells you to go do something because you've got to learn the hard way. Like, and that's sort of a. I think that's kind of a male way of like, go get your ass kicked and let a judge yell at you and then you're going to build sort of some sort of strength or something. But for me, I'm more like, let me come in here, let come. And I kind of disagree. I like to. It's more, it can be more time consuming. But getting a. If you get a smart new grad. I've had a handful lately that have just. They catch on quickly. Here's the trick. Honestly, for me personally, we do family law. I would rather have a new grad who has had another job in their life, preferably somebody who's been a mother, who knows how to multitask, who can talk to people, who has been through stressful life experiences. And you can teach somebody the lawyer, but you can't always teach somebody those skills. So, you know, we have a lot of second career people where, you know, they've like the woman I've got right now, who's my associate, she was in some sort of human services and domestic violence clinics or something and she worked in, you know, with people. And so then she went to law school. I was a nurse. I worked with people in really stressful situations before I went to law school. Another one of ours was a finance director at a nonprofit for like 10 or 15 years. We do a lot of financial stuff so she can like whip out a spreadsheet. Then she went to law school and she's like 40 or 35 or however old she was. So I would say to expand your idea of like second career people. New lawyers who are second career people are awesome hires.
- [24:43]
B
Yeah, I think that goes back to like, well, life experience equating to core values of what you're looking for in your army. Because you just completely explained a person, you know, as a whole, as their life experiences being their. An asset and is a value to their role in your firm. So I think if that was maybe the number one thing, if somebody that's listening is getting ready to bring on a junior associate or bring an associate in, is thinking of that as a competitive advantage and an asset to their business versus oh my God, this is just gonna cost me a ton just to have to train Someone.
- [25:17]
C
No, because, like, if you hire somebody who has some good life experience, it's not very long before they can be taking calls with clients because they can help. You know, they're like, I'm a big fan of hiring moms because they know how to multitask and they know how to manage all kinds of crazy things, and they don't take seriously people's anxiety and stuff. They're good at helping people calm down. So those skills that they have are useful right out of the chute. You know, the lawyer and the legal research. Like, they're probably pretty good at legal research because they learned that in law school. If they are good with people because they've got some life experience, then the gap is judgment and strategy, because that's what takes a long time to learn. So if you're looking at that's what you've got to teach somebody, that's not as overwhelming to think about as I've got to teach someone all the lawyer skills.
- [26:06]
B
Yeah.
- [26:06]
C
Really thought about exactly. Way before, but I think that's exactly right.
- [26:09]
B
But I think that's like, if nothing. If lawyers that are listening get nothing else from this, especially with the amount of people that I know are struggling to hire. I think, look at it. If you look at it differently and you take a different aspect to it, I think the struggle to hire will become less. I know that it's a lot of, you know, wanting to get pressure off themselves immediately to do cases, and I think that that's unrealistic and it's why you can't find anyone.
- [26:34]
C
Yeah, you're like adopting a kid. You're building a family, and you are going to put a lot of. You're going to put, you know, some time and attention to them because you're building. You're helping them build their career. And you're not. It's like, change your mind. It's not that they're there to help you and to make your life better and to take work off of your. You're helping them build a career that they can then become a participating member of your firm.
- [27:00]
B
It really goes back to the, you know, what you're trying to build and how you're trying to build it. I think of, are you trying to build a community, a collective culture, or are you trying to build off of someone else's back? For, you know, lack of a better way to say it?
- [27:15]
C
And guess what? Those people don't stay around. If your strategy is, I'm going to hire lawyers so that they can work their Ass off and make me a bunch of money, you're going to be doing that for the rest of your life. Like they're not going to. Nobody's going to stay with you because they don't feel valued and they know why they're there. I mean, if my message to my lawyers that work in our firm was you're here to blood, sweat and tears so that I can make a bunch of money, why would they stay there? Because they don't see any future for themselves. But if you say you're here because I want to create a place for you to build a fantastic career and be able to serve clients and to have personal flexibility and if you have to go to your kids choir concert at 2 o' clock in the afternoon, see you later, just let us know when you'll be back. That's a totally different thing than do this many hours and show up at this time. And you know, when I was a baby, baby lawyer, I think it was a law student, I worked in a firm and there was this old guy, he wasn't even old, he's younger than I am now, but anyway. But he would go over, he's the managing partner and he would literally walk around the office. You know, his office is there where the lawyers on the window and you've got that circle thing. He would walk around and he had this nervous habit of jingling his keys and he'd walk around and you'd hear his keys jingling and he would literally like 7 o' clock at night, he would go and make sure everybody was working. And it was the typical, like if you were there, you always wanted to have at least a cup of hot coffee on your desk and have your lights on and have your, you know, wasn't computers even then, I don't think. But you know, like you were having your books open and stuff so that everybody wanted to look like they were working late, late all the time. And nobody had the feeling that he gave a shit about anything about their personal life or who they were or what their career was. Just like, you know, he had a big fancy house and that's why we were all there. So that's not like the way to build a law firm.
- [29:02]
B
Yeah, I think that that brings me to like a really. I always like to. Normally, I always like to leave everyone with one thing to implement. I think you've given a ton of things that they could start implementing. But I think for the skeptics and for the. Oh, this all sounds really great and dandy, but you Know, I can't do that. I would love for you to paint a vision for them for, like, what's possible when you actually, number one, you build around, you know, your vision and in your goals, financial goals as well, but around your values and your visions, but then also around encouraging, you know, and mentoring your team to build with you.
- [29:42]
C
So the question is, how would somebody create that vision?
- [29:45]
B
I think more than creating the vision, I think understanding what it can look like on the other side, like, what it looks like for you and your team. Understanding. Because I think there's a lot of pressure and a lot of stress that's relieved, I think. I like, I love the way you express the fact that, okay, if you, you not just you as the lawyer, but the rest of your team, if they have a PTA meeting or they have a soccer game or they have something that that's really important, they shouldn't have to skip it or feel like I'm going to get fired.
- [30:11]
C
Right? Although if you have a hearing that day in front of a judge, then you're going to miss the choir concert. But yes, you know, you're going to. And you're also going to, you know, work your life around deadlines and depositions and court hearings and things like that. But I would say kind of like, well, I kind of think about this too because, like, have this, all this sort of ideas about how things work out. And then I'm like, well, maybe I'm not really right. And then I'm like, wait a minute. I'm 30 years into this. I have this amazing law firm. I have amazing people that I work with. I'm making plenty of money. I mean, it totally works. So for me, what's important for me is. And I remember thinking about this many years ago. I would journal and I would write down lists of things I wanted and it would be things like, I want people to come to work and feel like they're loved and cared for. And I want people to feel like, and I'll use the love word honestly. And I want people to feel like their career is important and that they have a home and that they feel welcome and that they feel comfortable and that they feel that if they have, you know, personal situation, that they can come tell us and that we will problem solve with them. And it is not more than once I have paid for people therapy and stuff. Like, I've got. And this goes to admin staff too. Like, I've got an admin staff person right now struggling with almost like homelessness or something. Like it's bad. And I'm, you know, paying for maybe first lesson deposit and I'm paying for her to go to therapy. And I'm like, what's, you know, in my big picture of my revenue, like if that's going to cost me a few thousand dollars in my big world life view, that's really not that much. And in her life, it's life changing. So you have to kind of start thinking about. And similarly with time, like people who have small children to demand of them to be to give away, give up their family and their family, not their family values, but like they're time with their children, that's kind of unrealistic and then expect them to be happy people. So we're lawyers and we can kind of make our own schedules. You've got your schedule and if you know that you have to go pick up your kid at noon, you know, next Tuesday to take a field trip or whatever it is, or if you're, you know, kid is a lacrosse player and you want to make the lacrosse games on Tuesdays and Thursdays, you block out your schedule and you be responsible about it. Doesn't mean you don't need to meet your billable hour sort of goals. And we also have all of our people on their own budget, so they know what their and their salary is sort of titrated to the budget that they want to have. So if they want to have a lower billable requirement, they're going to make less money. And it's all like they get a little grid every once a month. Like, here's where you are, this is your budget, this is where you are. This is where your collections are. And they can see where they're when you know where they're at. And it's all very transparent. And if someone said, well, I want to make a lot more money, then it's like, okay, well then this is the amount of money the little grid fills in. So I think transparency is super important. I don't think you need to be that way. You don't hire someone and then start showing your internal financial documents. But to, you know, once somebody like we have people that work right with the partners for about a year usually. And then because they'd say they launch and when they launch, they get their own budget and their paralegal is in part of their budget and they and their paralegal are like, maybe legal assistant are a team together and they can see where their financial situation is. They know what their revenue is, they know the revenue goals they know what has to be accomplished and then it's on them to decide how they want to make that happen. And I just, I was talking two of our lawyers that we hired during COVID and they're brilliant and fabulous. They're just killing it. They're so good. And they were. I was on a zoom with them the other day and they're like, you know, we were thinking about the other day. What would it be like? I can't even imagine what it would be like to have to go to an office. Like, they were blown away. Like, how did you do that for all those years? Like, have to get up and get dressed and put on a suit and, you know, sit in traffic. Just like. Then they're so happy. You're such good lawyers. And they're arguing because we're all on zoom motions and stuff. So they, Everybody has an office in their house that we helped them set up and they do their court arguments and we have zooms together. And you can keep that culture because then I hear people saying, well, you can't keep that culture if you don't have them in the office. But like, I have a zoom that's on my calendar, Zoom link on my calendar for every morning, like at 8:30 or something. And if somebody wants to talk to me during the day, I'll just say, pop on zoom. And they go on my calendar and they click on that zoom and we have a conversation and sometimes we have lunch together on zoom. And one of my lawyers, my associate that I have right now, literally, this is crazy. She and her husband and their three teenage children and their five dogs live in a converted school bus.
- [34:56]
B
Oh my Lord.
- [34:57]
C
And they are driving around, staying in Bureau of Land Management land all across Colorado, Texas. She's now at her mother's house in Maryland. She's 100. She's one of the top billers in the firm. And her husband's a stay at home dad and he's homeschooling the kids in a fricking school bus. And she has like a little pod in the back of the school bus and a starlink on her roof. And she's one of the top billers in our firm. So anything is possible.
- [35:26]
B
I think people tend to. I mean, I'm a big proponent of that part of it where people work harder for you when they know that they have that the ability, that they're trusted, they're, you know, wanted, they feel safe. And I just find that, that there's no. They know what their job is. They want to do it. They want to do better, they want to do more. And it's not something you ask for. It's just something that they do because of the way that they're being treated.
- [35:53]
C
And they want to build a career. Like, they're there because they want to be a really great lawyer. And I'm there because I. I want you to be a really great lawyer. And guess what? If you're a really great lawyer, we're both going to benefit because you're going to be a really great lawyer. You're going to get more clients and you're going to make more money. And I'm going to benefit because I'm going to have a law firm that is, you know, reputable and highly regarded, and you're going to work your way up to partner someday. And I'm going to make money, and you're going to make money and you're going to not miss all your kids choir concerts. It's like, what is not to understand about that? It doesn't seem super complicated to me. No.
- [36:27]
B
And it shouldn't be. So if you were to leave, you want to leave them with one. Lawyers with one thing today, whether it be in general or directed, and we spoke a lot about, you know, women and struggles they're going through as well. But if you had to leave them with one thing today, what would that be?
- [36:44]
C
Be brave. It does require a little brave. What's that word call? Like not just perseverance, but that brave first step. Like that unknown. Be brave about being willing to step into the unknown. But it's. Once you get there, it isn't really unknown, because if you've been sort of creating this vision of what you want, when you get there, it's going to be recognizable. You're going to go, oh, but that first step requires a lot of bravery. I get that. And you have to be courageous, and I love that. To do that, you probably need, you know, to find some mentors or some people that'll will support you. But just. It's brave. Be brave.
- [37:22]
B
I think that applies to our founder, Sam Roy says done is better than perfect. So being brave and understanding that it's not going to look exactly the way that you have it in your mind. And things aren't going to go exactly perfect when you first start. And that's totally okay.
- [37:38]
C
I wanted to say one thing about that because this is really important. I learned this from one of my Woo Woo classes one time. But when you're in the middle of something and it doesn't look like you think it was gonna look like. Like you, let's say you start your law firm and you lose your biggest client or something. And you're like, you could either say, oh, shit, this is all falling apart, like, this is a disaster, or you can say, this isn't what I thought it was gonna look like on my way to building a fantastic law firm. And that is a huge shift. Because then you just like, well, that's not what I thought it was going to look like. But I know I'm going to build this law firm. And so. And what's going to happen is a year from now, you're going to find out that that client was doing something dishonest or that client's sister in law hired you and now you've got an even better client. Like it all when you get into the future. And I think we all notice this in our lives. It's like that job you didn't get, thank God. Like, I applied for a job to sell Gerber's baby food one time and I didn't get it. I thought the world was over. And now I'm like, thank you, God. But just change your mind a little bit about when something looks like a catastrophe. It's just what it looks like to getting to where you're going. Don't give up on this dream because this happened that you didn't think. Have more faith in your vision than to let this situation, whatever it is, stop you. So I think that's kind of what you were just saying a little bit.
- [38:58]
B
I think that's amazing. That's amazing. I appreciate you coming on. I think this is a conversation that probably has to be had a lot more often and it's visited a lot more often for everybody. Even, you know, whether you own a firm or you're, you're, you know, an attorney and associate in one. So I appreciate you coming on.
- [39:16]
C
Well, thanks for having me. It's super fun. And now I've got a whole new, like, it's funny when I talk about this, it's like, oh, yeah, that's right. So it's a good reminder for all of us.
- [39:23]
B
Great. All right, thank you.
- [39:29]
A
That's the law entrepreneur for today. I'm Sam Malay. I appreciate you listening. Subscribe to subscribe to the Lawntrepreneur for more legal content and practical growth plays.