Lawfare Podcast Archive: Introducing Allies – A Podcast Series from Lawfare and Goat Rodeo

Release Date: December 14, 2025
Episode Focus: Re-airing the first episode of “Allies,” a deep-dive podcast series examining how U.S. reliance on Afghan interpreters, translators, and local partners shaped two decades of war and the fraught legacy of the Special Immigrant Visa (SIV) program.
Guest Voices: Journalists Matthew Akins & Wesley Morgan, U.S. Army veteran Matt Zeller, former CIA Deputy Director John McLaughlin, security policy expert Corey Shockey, with narration by Bryce Clem.

Episode Overview

This episode revisits the first installment of Allies, Lawfare and Goat Rodeo’s acclaimed series chronicling the story of Afghan partners essential to the U.S. war effort. Against the backdrop of the 2021 U.S. withdrawal from Afghanistan and the chaos at Kabul's airport, the podcast examines:

• The critical, often life-risking, roles Afghan interpreters and local staff played for American military and intelligence operations.
• The creation, functioning, and failures of the Special Immigrant Visa program.
• The intersection of policy, bureaucracy, and human lives during two decades of war and the eventual evacuation crisis.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Stage: U.S. Withdrawal and Immediate Crisis

[02:00 – 14:00]

• Episode contextualized by a tragic shooting and Trump administration policy in 2025, but the core story unfolds during the August 2021 evacuation of Kabul after nearly two decades of U.S. involvement.
• Matthew Akins details the shock and fear among Afghans as U.S. forces prepared to exit and the Taliban advanced.
  • “People were very anxious, very desperate to leave. But still very few people had any sense that the end was that near.” — Matthew Akins [04:27]
• The U.S. announced “Operation Allies Refuge” to evacuate Afghans at risk, especially interpreters and others closely linked to U.S. missions.

2. The Chaos at Kabul Airport

[07:00 – 14:00]

• Scenes of desperation: massive crowds surging at Hamid Karzai International Airport, people clinging to planes, and tragic deaths.
• The physical security setup (blast walls, choke points) turned “mobs” into “death traps.”
• “American soldiers were posted at the gate to sort through the crowds, but it was nearly impossible to check for travel documents.” — Bryce Clem [10:02]
• Reports of horror, including the deadly Abbey Gate bombing by ISIS, amplifying the sense of chaos and abandonment.

3. The SIV Program: Red Tape and Failure

[14:00 – 16:25]

• The podcast tracks the emergence of deep bureaucratic hurdles, as interpreters and partners waited years for visas and saw the process grind to a halt at the worst possible moment.
• Matt Zeller: “The problem was not the idea. The problem wasn't the legislation. The problem was the execution.” [15:10]
• “Much less reasonable if you're trying to stay alive long enough to get the damn visas.” — Wesley Morgan [15:20]

4. Origins: Why and How Afghan Allies Were Recruited

[22:38 – 40:00]

• Post-9/11, the U.S. faced an intelligence and cultural deficit in Afghanistan.
• Former CIA Deputy Director John McLaughlin describes the CIA’s scramble to understand Afghanistan’s terrain, languages, and power structures:
  • “There weren't many people in Washington who had paid attention to Afghanistan or knew much about it. I was sending teams of analysts out ... carrying maps and doing a briefing on... what exactly is Afghanistan.” [29:37]
• The linguistic diversity complicated matters, creating a massive dependency on local interpreters:
  • “Most Afghans are multilingual and speak Dari or Pashtu ... In all, they speak nearly 60 languages.” — Bryce Clem [31:18]

5. The Essential Role of Interpreters and Cultural Brokers

[33:34 – 36:03]

• Matt Zeller, a U.S. Army officer, recounts how interpreters were not just translators but cultural guides and lifelines:
  • “There's just so much ... if you go and sit into a meeting ... where do you put the two most important people? ... In Afghan culture, they sit next to each other ... these little nuances ... If you don't know, ... it's a big insult.” [33:44]
  • On the significance of hospitality: “If we were in, like, a village and someone invited us ... the interpreters would pull us aside ... they've literally cooked all the food in the house. If you don't come back tomorrow with ... food for this family, they're gonna starve.” [34:18]
• U.S. troops were “utterly dependent” on this expertise, as acknowledged by Corey Shockey of the NSC:
  • “I bet there were less than 20 people in the American national security establishment who had the language abilities to navigate Afghanistan. We were utterly dependent on our interpreters and translators.” [35:44]

6. Broader Strategic Picture and Policy Drift

[39:01 – 41:56]

• As the Bush administration pivoted focus to Iraq, resources and attention were drained from Afghanistan.
• The war in Afghanistan shifted from rapid military operations to an open-ended and poorly resourced nation-building project, compounding the burdens on Afghan partners.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “We were the eyes and ears of U.S. Troops in Afghanistan.”
  — Wesley Morgan [14:13]
• “The Taliban knew all this. That's why they used to shoot at them first.”
  — Matt Zeller [14:15]
• “People are going to listen to this, and there will be blood spilt back in Afghanistan if we're not careful.”
  — Bryce Clem [14:44]
• “The CIA had come prepared with a thick binder ... With a plan we’d developed and updated that week ... for attacking Al Qaeda in dozens of countries around the world.”
  — John McLaughlin [24:38]
• “Creating safety throughout the country was going to require a magnitude of forces that the United States did not want to provide.”
  — Corey Shockey [38:35]

Timeline of Key Segments

• [02:00 – 03:02]: Introduction — Background on the suspension of Afghan visas and setup for the episode.
• [03:02 – 11:54]: The 2021 Kabul airport crisis, firsthand accounts from Matthew Akins, and the logistical/human turmoil of evacuation.
• [14:13 – 15:24]: Discussion of interpreters as eyes and ears; the dangers they faced; the failures of policy and the SIV backlog.
• [22:38 – 30:59]: How post-9/11 knowledge gaps drove U.S. reliance on local partners; CIA early operations.
• [31:18 – 36:03]: Nuanced stories about language, culture, and survival; interpreters’ indispensable roles.
• [39:01 – 41:56]: Shift to Iraq, resource diversion, and the evolving U.S. mission in Afghanistan.

Tone and Takeaway

This episode is both a journalistic investigation and a humanistic narrative, blending rigor with empathy. It is imbued with lament, frustration, and moral urgency. The tone is serious and occasionally somber, reflecting on bureaucratic failures and honoring the courage and sacrifice of Afghan partners who became “the eyes and ears” of America’s longest war.

For listeners:
This episode offers vital historical context to the current debates about Afghanistan, immigration, and U.S. global responsibility, while foregrounding the lives caught in the machinery of war and policy.

For further exploration, listen to the entire Allies series—especially to hear directly from Afghan partners themselves.