The Lawfare Podcast: "Seeking Meaning at the Soviet Collapse" with Joseph Kellner

Date: November 6, 2025
Host: Tyler McBrien (Managing Editor, Lawfare)
Guest: Joseph Kellner (Assistant Professor of History, University of Georgia)
Topic: Kellner’s book—The Spirit of Socialism: Culture and Belief at the Soviet Collapse—and the explosion of spiritual and alternative worldviews in Russia during the 1990s

Overview

This episode explores the profound social, intellectual, and spiritual dislocation Russians experienced at the end of the Soviet Union and throughout the 1990s, as investigated in Joseph Kellner’s new book. Kellner and host Tyler McBrien discuss the “seeking phenomenon”—a mass search for identity, meaning, and authority in the wake of the USSR’s collapse—and how this period’s experiments shaped both contemporary Russian society and offer warnings for other societies confronting crises of authority and identity.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The “Seeking Phenomenon” and Why It Happened

[02:29, Joseph Kellner]:

• Post-Soviet Russia saw an "amazingly public, visible flourishing of radical new worldviews… Spiritual groups, apocalyptic sects, alternative visions of science and history all came out of the woodwork at once."
• The roots:
  • Russia underwent an extreme material crisis—massive economic contraction, drop in life expectancy, rises in crime and substance abuse.
  • Simultaneously, there was a moral crisis: previously regulated aspects of society (advertising, pornography) became rampant; norms collapsed.
  • This was a country that, five years prior, was a high-functioning superpower with a clear vision of itself and its future.
• The “seeking phenomenon”: A mass, frenetic search for orientation in a world where the past and future became unmoored.

"There is no sense of the past or the future. There's no sense of who we are. And so people go seeking and the seeking phenomenon grows in that really particular crisis." (Kellner, 05:30)

2. Personal Origins of the Book

[06:38, Joseph Kellner]:

• Kellner’s interest developed in Berkeley, via exposure to radical political groups and their cult-like attitudes.
• Noted the power of charismatic figures and how belief can shape political cultures.
• Inspired by both personal observation and conversations with his academic supervisor—comparison with the spiritual/political fervor of early Soviet period.

"I saw the makings of a political sect in the way that my supervisor was describing it. Not a successful one, but... I was really moved by this experience." (Kellner, 08:19)

3. Blurring Boundaries: Science, Faith, and Politics

[10:37, Kellner]:

• Post-Soviet seekers mixed faith, science, politics—reflecting their upbringing in a “science state” that nonetheless required faith.
• The prevailing spiritual culture: eclectic, esoteric seekers mining astrology, new religions, alternative sciences, history revisions.
• The book is structured around four prominent “currents” or case studies:
  1. Astrology (mass phenomenon, leaders often trained scientists)
  2. Hare Krishna movement (highly visible and enduring)
  3. Apocalyptic sects (notably one that claimed a living Christ in Siberia)
  4. New Chronology (radical historical revisionism by Anatoly Fomenko)

"The best catch all term is the Esoteric. So these are people who believe there is some truth in everything if only you look..." (Kellner, 11:15)

4. The Central Questions Uniting Seekers

[14:25, Kellner]:

• All these groups, movements, and ideas were attempts to answer three main questions:
  1. Authority: Who can we trust? Where does knowledge come from? Collapse of faith in government and media; history seemed like “whitewashed Soviet propaganda.”
  2. Identity: Are we Western? Eastern? What does it mean to be Russian? Loss of anthem, national project; confusion post-collapse.
  3. Time: What is our place in history and where are we headed? The USSR’s collapse destroyed the former narrative of historical progress.
• These are not unique to Russia; they resonate globally in moments of crisis.

"It really is less about what they find and what they believe than what they're asking and what they feel is important to know and understand about the world in this crisis." (Kellner, 14:39)

5. From Seeking to Putinism: A Story of Consolidation

[17:33, Kellner]:

• There’s no direct line from the 1990s seeking phenomenon to Putin’s rise, but Putinism “consolidates” the chaotic fervor into a state ideology.
• Comparison to Stalinism’s selection from 1920s Soviet utopianism.
• Modern Russia’s answers:
  • Truth/Authority: The government and media, now unified, are the source.
  • Identity: Clear distinction from the West; Russia as preserver of tradition.
  • Time: Russia’s greatness is being restored; the dark period is ending.

"Putinism seems to present a clear answer to where does truth derive? Well, it is in the media. It's in the government. There's sort of a single voice that has now been consolidated around the Putin government... Identity: we are a distinct civilization from the west... a special mission to preserve tradition and values..." (Kellner, 18:12)

6. Parallels With Current (Western) Political Movements

[25:59, McBrien; 26:59, Kellner]:

• Kellner notes the “crisis of knowledge” in the US, the prevalence of conspiracy theories, and the fight over national identity.
• MAGA/Trumpism compared to Putinism and the Russian 1990s—strong nostalgia and identity elements, but less of a positive vision for the future (quote below).
• The current Western “vision of time” is nostalgic: “We need to go back.”

"There are very few people who believe in the positive future... the best idea we can come up with is a nostalgia of a type, that there was a time when we were great." (Kellner, 28:22)

7. Anatoly Fomenko’s “New Chronology”—Psychedelic Revisionism

[29:52, Kellner]:

• Fomenko, a mathematician, created an internally inconsistent but compelling narrative: all of world history is only about 1,000 years old, and the rest is copied and disguised. A grand Slavic-Turkic Christian empire has been erased by Romanov and Western conspiracies.
• Despite its incoherence, it gave millions an orientation in a “disoriented” era: an authority figure, pride in Russia, a center for the world.
• Disorientation was already so deep that such visions appealed, however far-fetched.

"The most common answer among Anglophone scholars anyway is that it's just a nationalist parable... I think that over-simplifies Fomenko. What really matters is that... Fomenko is offering something coherent and some vision of the past that Russians can take pride in..." (Kellner, 35:30 & 36:35)

8. Reflections for Today: Conspiracy, Authority, and the Internet

[38:09, McBrien; 39:34, Kellner]:

• The modern US faces similar crises of authority, conspiratorial thinking, and disconnection from history.
• The Internet and AI threaten even deeper, algorithm-driven revisionisms.
• True economic crisis is missing so far, but risks remain.
• What can be done? Greater critical reading and changes in our relationship with the Internet, but history’s unpredictability makes “solutions” elusive.

"...the Internet has such an atomizing effect on our public square, or what had been a public square. And so it may be that we need a crisis on the Internet, which I think is brewing... There is a major backlash against the Internet, and I put a lot of hope in that." (Kellner, 41:40–42:05)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the depth of Russian crisis:
  “Disorientation on a level that I think is difficult to wrap our heads around as Americans.”
  (Kellner, 04:45)

• On the mixture of science and faith:
  “Upon inspection, you realize that defining either religion or science is virtually impossible. And there’s all kinds of creative recombinations of these things.”
  (Kellner, 10:51)

• On nostalgia vs future visions in politics:
  “There are very few people who believe in the positive future... the best idea we can come up with is a nostalgia... that there was a time when we were great.”
  (Kellner, 28:22)

• Host humor:
  “If you’re feeling disoriented, just wait.”
  (McBrien, 31:55, as Fomenko’s theory is explained)

• On unpredictability:
  “Nobody can tell the future, and historians least of all. ...It’s wholly plausible and with plenty of historical precedent that what looks like a completely unstoppable drift to the right or towards authoritarianism can fracture and splinter.”
  (Kellner, 41:07)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Explanation of the seeking phenomenon – 02:29–05:49
• Personal and academic origins of Kellner’s interest – 06:38–09:48
• Case studies overview – 10:37–13:48
• Three unifying questions (authority, identity, time) – 14:25–16:49
• Putin’s consolidation and ideological answers – 17:33–20:10
• Parallel crises in the West, nostalgia, and MAGA – 25:59–29:30
• Fomenko’s 'New Chronology' & why it resonated – 29:52–38:09
• Contemporary implications, the internet, misinformation – 38:09–43:32
• Closing reflections and thanks – 43:32–44:01

Tone and Style

The conversation maintains a thoughtful, probing, yet accessible tone. There’s a blend of deep historical insight, personal anecdote, and occasional wry humor (especially in discussing outlandish conspiratorial theories). Both host and guest pull current analogies without alarmism, emphasizing the complexity and unpredictability of cultural history.

Takeaway

Kellner’s study highlights that profound societal disorientation yields all kinds of radical experiments with belief, history, and identity—experiments that can be both creative and dangerous. The episode urges listeners to see the Soviet collapse not just as a “Russian” story, but as a potent warning and guide for many modern societies facing their own crises of meaning, authority, and truth.