The Lawfare Podcast

Episode: Lawfare Live: The Trump Administration’s 2025 National Security Strategy
Date: December 12, 2025
Host: Benjamin Wittes, Editor in Chief of Lawfare
Guests:

• Corey Shockey, Director of Foreign and Defense Policy, American Enterprise Institute
• Scott R. Anderson, Lawfare Senior Editor
• Dan Byman, Director, Warfare, Irregular Threats, and Terrorism Program, Center for Strategic Studies; Foreign Policy Editor, Lawfare

Episode Overview

This episode features a roundtable discussion dissecting the Trump administration’s newly released 2025 National Security Strategy (NSS). The conversation critically examines the document's origins, guiding principles, key priorities, and the broader implications for U.S. foreign policy, alliances, and global stability. The panelists explore the NSS's break from traditional norms, its ideological underpinnings, and the explicit pivot toward "America First" and domestic political appeals.

Tone: Analytical, candid, and highly critical, with sharp insights into both the document’s content and subtext.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What is a National Security Strategy, and How is the 2025 NSS Different?

[03:04–06:07] Corey Shockey:

• Traditional NSS: Legally required, typically includes:
  • Global threat assessment
  • U.S. strengths and tools
  • Strategic objectives and threat mitigation
• The 2025 NSS:
  • Its description of the world is "fantastical."
  • Main threat identified: Immigration—contrary to America's history as "a magnet for talent."
  • Focus on the Western Hemisphere at the expense of global concerns.
  • Allies characterized as "collapsing civilizations," especially NATO partners.
  • Self-contradictory and lacking self-awareness. Criticizes previous strategies for wishful thinking, then does the same.
• Memorable Moment:
  • “Several things about this strategy merit ridicule. One of them is the complete lack of self awareness.” – Corey Shockey [05:13]
  • “The real bell ringer... is the line where they say the American government possesses fearsome powers. It must never abuse those powers.” – Corey Shockey [05:38]

2. Authorial Process & Intellectual Origins

[07:16–08:55] Benjamin Wittes & Scott R. Anderson:

• Normal process: Wide interagency authorship, often leading to consensus-driven but "mushy" documents.
• The 2025 NSS:
  • Lacks clear interagency input.
  • Likely written by a small, ideologically homogeneous group—possibly focused on appealing to domestic political bases rather than experts or allies.
  • Speculation about Michael Anton: Rumored to have drafted it but no public confirmation.
• Distinct from previous NSS efforts under McMaster (2017) and Jake Sullivan (2022), which were rooted in continuity and professional expertise.

Memorable Quote:

• “This is more the creature of a small number of people kind of channeling an even smaller number of intellectuals.” – Benjamin Wittes [07:33]
• “Who’s actually policy relevant? We don’t know.” – Scott R. Anderson [12:19]

3. Tone, Sycophancy, and Audience

[17:39–21:49] Dan Byman:

• Document is full of sycophancy and self-congratulation, especially oriented toward Trump.
• Senior officials appear to perform for the “audience of one” — Trump himself — leading to political sycophancy and lack of substantive critique.
• Terrorism and North Korea: All but absent, even more so than during the post-9/11 era.
• China: Portrayed mainly as an economic threat; military buildup mostly ignored.
• Russia: Treated more favorably than U.S. allies.

Notable Quote:

• “The actual problems are not problems, and it’s the ones we should think about for domestic audiences... whatever Trump has been doing at a particular moment is being praised. The amount of probable graft going on somehow escapes mention.” – Dan Byman [18:12]
• “There’s also a strong audience of one, which is; I think people are performing for the man.” – Dan Byman [20:18]

4. Guiding Principles – Or Lack Thereof

[23:28–28:31]

• The document claims: “pragmatic without being pragmatist, realistic without being realist, principled without being idealistic...” — seen by the panel as an admission of incoherence, rooted only in "America First."
• Panel’s reaction:
  • “Those are not things you can credibly claim about yourself. They are things other people have to say about you.” – Corey Shockey [23:28]
  • The principle is ultimately what works for Trump, with no ideological coherence.

5. Immigration at the Center: Domestic and International Focus

[34:33–39:54]

• Immigration enforcement and border security are elevated as the central national security priority.
• Surprising and alarming focus on pressuring U.S. allies (esp. Europe) to adopt similarly exclusionary, racially-inflected policies.
• Administration advocates support for far-right, ethnonationalist parties in Europe, but expresses indifference to authoritarian regimes in Russia and China.

Notable Quotes:

• “No, in fact, you are understating it, Ben, not overstating it. We are a nation by creed... it is profoundly un-American to suggest that ethnicity or religion or race is the basis of being an American.” – Corey Shockey [37:25]
• “We need to interfere in the domestic politics of our closest friends, but should not interfere... with our actual adversaries.” – Corey Shockey [38:20]

6. Treatment of China, Russia, and Major Power Competition

China (Indo-Pacific):
[40:33–46:35] Dan Byman & Scott R. Anderson

• China discussed mostly as an economic adversary (chips, trade), virtually ignoring military threat.
• Taiwan’s importance tied to chip supply chains, not democracy or alliances.
• Lack of acknowledgment of allies in the Pacific (e.g., the Philippines), despite formal defense treaties.
• Use of throwback “island chain” rhetoric, which downplays diplomatic recognition of regional allies.
• Key implication: Allies may feel sidelined and anxious.

Russia (Europe):
[48:25–54:12]

• No meaningful recognition of Russia as a threat; instead, Russia’s worldview on Europe is echoed.
• Strategy appears to validate Russian and Chinese “spheres of influence.”
• The only foreign government to praise the NSS is Russia.

Memorable Quotations:

• “Every American ally should be incredibly anxious about the credibility of anything the Trump administration promises...” – Corey Shockey [46:35]
• “It’s worse than that. They are taking Vladimir Putin’s ideology and talking points and parroting them.” – Corey Shockey [50:35]
• “This document is proposing a bargain to China and Russia... ‘don’t push too far, but you have sway in your domain.’” – Scott R. Anderson [54:12]

7. International Reaction

[55:21–58:37]

• U.S. allies respond quietly and anxiously — open criticism risks direct retaliation by the administration.
• U.S. adversaries express approval.
• Diplomats are analyzing the document’s influence and testing for Congressional and institutional buy-in.

Quotes:

• “Quiet despair and private anxiety by America’s closest friends and celebration by those countries that are working to destroy American power and prosperity.” – Corey Shockey [57:56]
• “This strategy is speaking for a really narrow audience...I think it’s speaking to a constituency of one, as Dan noted.” – Scott R. Anderson [58:37]

8. The “Trump Corollary” to the Monroe Doctrine

[61:09–63:17]

• The strategy claims a new corollary to the Monroe Doctrine for Latin America without clear definition — seen as more bombast and intimidation than substance.
• Latin American countries now look to Europe for protection from U.S. threats, a stark reversal.
• Even the U.K. has cut intelligence sharing in protest over Caribbean policy.

Corey Shockey:

• “They are trying to make this a thing — that the United States threatening the use of military force around Latin America is somehow a new element of the Monroe Doctrine... I suspect it doesn’t exist and won’t have a shelf life.” [61:09]

Notable and Memorable Moments

• On sycophancy:

  • “The incredible painful sycophancy that is throughout this report... If Trump changes his mind tomorrow, you praise the 180-degree turn.” – Dan Byman [18:33]

• On ideology:

  • “We don’t believe in anything except what we do.” – Benjamin Wittes [22:00]

• On U.S. allies:

  • “Every American ally should be incredibly anxious about the credibility of anything the Trump administration promises them based on this strategy.” – Corey Shockey [46:35]

• On Russia:

  • “They are taking Vladimir Putin’s ideology and talking points and parroting them.” – Corey Shockey [50:35]
  • “It is incredibly indicative that the only foreign government that has praised this strategy is the government of the Russian Federation.” – Corey Shockey [51:14]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• NSS overview & differences: [03:04–06:07]
• Authorship & process: [07:16–13:40]
• Tone, sycophancy, audience: [17:39–21:49]
• Principles or incoherence: [23:28–28:31]
• Immigration & race: [34:33–39:54]
• China/Indo-Pacific region: [40:33–47:00]
• Russia & major powers: [48:25–54:12]
• International reactions: [55:21–58:37]
• The Monroe Doctrine “corollary”: [61:09–63:17]

Overall Summary

The panel concludes that the 2025 NSS is remarkable both for its break with bipartisan national security tradition and for its overt domestic political orientation—geared not to reassuring allies or deterring adversaries, but to catering to the preferences, anxieties, and grievances of Donald Trump and his core supporters. The document is candid in its rejection of longstanding U.S. values, and, in the eyes of the panel, it is "profoundly un-American" in its attitude toward immigration and race, dangerous in its disregard for allies, and outright destabilizing in its tolerance of spheres of influence for adversaries such as Russia and China.

If you’re seeking to understand the Trump administration’s 2025 National Security Strategy and its world-altering implications, this episode is an unflinching, thorough, and at times scathing guide.

For more information and live analysis, visit lawfareblog.com or tune in to future Lawfare Live sessions.