The Lawfare Podcast: Rational Security – “The More You DOGE” Edition

Release Date: April 23, 2025

Overview

In this episode of The Lawfare Podcast, hosted by Scott R. Andersen of The Lawfare Institute, the team delves into pressing national security issues intersecting with law and policy. The discussion centers on three main topics: the Trump administration's aggressive actions under the Alien Enemies Act, the administration's approach to artificial intelligence (AI) integration in government, and the mounting challenges faced by Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth. The conversation features insights from key Lawfare colleagues, including Anna Bauer, Tyler McBrien, and Kevin Fraser.

1. Trump Administration's Alien Enemies Act Enforcement

Summary

The podcast begins with an in-depth analysis of the Trump administration's continued efforts to remove foreign aliens deemed as "predatory" under the Alien Enemies Act, despite significant legal pushback including interventions by the U.S. Supreme Court.

Key Points:

• Legal Battles: The administration's campaign to deport certain foreign nationals has faced challenges across multiple judicial fronts, including district courts, circuit courts, and the Supreme Court. Notably, cases like the JGGV Trump case and actions against individuals like Kilmar Abrego Garcia (Mr. Garcia) highlight the complexity and resistance faced.

• Government's Stance: The administration has consistently invoked various privileges, such as the state secrets privilege, to resist court orders demanding the facilitation of detainee returns to their home countries. This strategy appears to be a stalling tactic aimed at prolonging legal disputes.

• Judicial Response: Courts have maintained pressure on the administration to comply with legal orders, emphasizing the need to balance foreign policy considerations with legal mandates.

Notable Quotes:

• Anna Bauer [05:12]:
  "We thought we'd pick out three stories of particular interest to us and hopefully to you, dear listener."

• Kevin Fraser [10:26]:
  "I worry a little bit this is a sign the Trump administration really wants to fight this all out on remedies, not the actual merits of the law."

• Tyler McBrien [30:11]:
  "The Supreme Court has...with this reference to foreign policy and it's this kind of open-ended language that I read the Trump administration since the Supreme Court's order here, essentially saying that is an exception that swallows the rule."

Discussion Highlights:

• State Secrets Privilege: Kevin Fraser elaborates on how the administration's invocation of the state secrets privilege is a strategic move to delay compliance. He expresses concern that this could lead to a constitutional crisis, as the judiciary remains a check on executive overreach.

• Judicial Confidence: There is a consensus among the hosts that while the administration is stalling, the judiciary is likely to uphold the rule of law, suggesting eventual compliance despite temporary delays.

2. Artificial Intelligence in Government: Policies and Implications

Summary

The second segment addresses the Trump administration's robust push to integrate AI into government operations, contrasting it with the previous administration's more cautious approach. The discussion examines the potential benefits and risks of this aggressive AI adoption strategy.

Key Points:

• Policy Shifts: Under the Trump administration, Office of Management and Budget (OMB) memos (M memos 2521 and 2522) mandate a significant increase in AI utilization across federal agencies. This marks a shift from experimentation to active integration of AI into day-to-day governmental functions.

• AI Champions: Agencies are now required to appoint "AI champions" who are tasked with driving AI integration, moving beyond the previous role of merely overseeing AI initiatives.

• Data Sharing and Privacy Concerns: The memos encourage interagency data sharing for AI purposes, raising serious privacy and cybersecurity concerns. The reduction in data minimization practices could lead to increased risks of data breaches and misuse.

• Buy American Directive: The administration emphasizes procuring AI technologies from American companies, potentially limiting collaboration with international allies and affecting the quality and innovation in AI implementation.

• Public Trust: There is apprehension about the public's trust in AI, especially given the administration's execution style. Effective AI integration requires public buy-in, which may be jeopardized by perceived overreach and lack of transparency.

Notable Quotes:

• Tyler McBrien [46:46]:
  "The transition from a sort of government experimentation with AI... to what I'll refer to as government by AI."

• Paige [55:31]:
  "AI for these in the military and government in all ways will be more of a hallmark of a MAGA policy."

• Kevin Fraser [57:53]:
  "...quality checked, at least when implementation when being developed, particularly in the early stages, because you are training these models to get to the right outcomes reliably."

Discussion Highlights:

• Balancing Efficiency and Effectiveness: While the administration aims for government efficiency through AI, the hosts express concerns over whether this focus aligns with enhancing effectiveness in service delivery. Tyler McBrien advocates for a "compared to what" analysis to ensure AI implementations genuinely improve governmental functions.

• Data Quality vs. Government Shrinking: The reduction in data collection contradicts the needs of effective AI systems, which rely on comprehensive and high-quality data inputs. Tyler emphasizes the incompatibility of shrinking government data footprints with the goals of AI maturation.

• Talent and Expertise: The administration's stringent immigration policies may hinder the recruitment of AI experts, posing challenges to the successful deployment and management of AI technologies within government agencies.

3. Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth’s Tenure and Controversies

Summary

The final major topic revolves around the tumultuous tenure of Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth. Recent revelations indicate that Hegseth has shared classified information with non-officials, leading to internal chaos and media scrutiny.

Key Points:

• Classified Information Mishandling: Reports suggest that Hegseth shared classified military strike details with his wife, brother, and personal lawyer via Signal chat, breaching confidentiality protocols.

• Internal Strife: Former advisors and officials describe Hegseth's leadership as chaotic, leading to internal infighting and a toxic work environment within the Department of Defense (DoD).

• Media Criticism: Op-eds and media reports, including a notable piece in Politico by John Oliott, highlight the dysfunction under Hegseth's leadership, drawing comparisons to other administrations facing similar turmoil.

• Potential Resignation: Despite strong backing from President Trump, the mounting pressure may lead to Hegseth's resignation or replacement, though the exact timeline remains uncertain.

Notable Quotes:

• Kevin Fraser [71:47]:
  "He may implode on his own even if Trump continues to back him because it is so chaotic and unhinged in the Defense Department."

• Paige [74:14]:
  "These trips sound like the worst thing in the entire world and the last thing they'd ever do on vacation."

• Tyler McBrien [76:06]:
  "Maybe we'll see Hegseth on the outs of the MAGA world."

Discussion Highlights:

• Leadership Failures: The hosts discuss how Hegseth's approach, prioritizing aggression and lethality over essential military logistics and risk mitigation, has undermined the effectiveness of the DoD.

• Political Ramifications: There is speculation about whether Hegseth will remain in his position or be replaced, with suggestions that Trump's dissatisfaction with negative press might force a change.

• Legal Implications: The possibility of criminal exposure for Hegseth due to mishandling classified information is debated, though it's deemed unlikely due to potential presidential pardons.

• Institutional Trust: The chaotic environment within the DoD under Hegseth erodes public trust in governmental institutions, as reflected in the uncertainty and skepticism voiced by various stakeholders.

Conclusion and Object Lessons

The episode concludes with "object lessons," where the hosts share personal anecdotes and reflections:

• Scott R. Andersen: Recounts his journey in founding Lawfare and emphasizes the importance of protecting one’s dreams.

• Paige: Shares her experiences with bike touring in Turkey and recommends resources like bikepacking.com for enthusiasts.

• Kevin Fraser: Discusses his coping mechanism of watching media that aligns with his anxieties, highlighting his appreciation for shows like Severance.

• Tyler McBrien: Highlights positive AI initiatives, such as Google's partnership with local nonprofits for AI training, advocating for broader access and equitable AI integration across all communities.

Final Thoughts:

The hosts emphasize the critical need for balancing technological advancements with legal and ethical considerations. They caution against unchecked executive actions and advocate for maintaining institutional integrity to preserve public trust and effective governance.

Listen to the Full Episode: For a comprehensive discussion on these topics and more, visit www.lawfareblog.com or find The Lawfare Podcast on your preferred podcast platform.