B (3:14)

No, great question. It was encouraged by my parents. My parents are both from Uganda and at the time it was around ensuring that their children had a grounding of the motherland. And it's easy to sort of grow up here. I. I spent most of my childhood years in the uk. It's easy to grow up here and somewhat lose that connection to your home country. So I really commend my parents for taking that, that bold step in taking me back to Uganda so that I can have my formative sort of teenage years there.

A (3:47)

Did you feel like, was it, I want to stop short, I guess, of calling, like a calling or something. But did it draw to you right away that, oh my gosh, there's so much injustice down here? I mean, in terms of education or quality of life or whatever it might be, that. Did you feel that need kind of right away to do something about it?

B (4:05)

That's interesting story. And I talk about this in a book I'm writing, publish sometime this year. But my first impression when I drove away from the airport, entire airport in Uganda, was the homelessness and seeing the situation of housing and disrepair and, you know, the structures always stayed with me in terms of I want to come back and I want to do something around these, the infrastructure and the road. So that was my first sort of insight even before I left the car. When I entered it, it was, I need to come back at some point and do something about the built environment. So interestingly, I ended up doing campaigns around access to education and sort of human rights. But my initial calling was around infrastructure.

A (4:58)

And so you ended up obviously becoming a lawyer. Did you know? So as your high school years are forming up, is all of this sounds like it kind of converges. Yes. Was it sort of like you became a lawyer to make a difference in this way? Was this always part of your plan or was it, I'm just going to become a lawyer and I'll help Uganda later? Like, what did that look like?

B (5:20)

Yes, great question. At the time, it looked like, I want to become a lawyer and I want to be an advocate for human rights and social justice. And it evolved over time to what I'm currently doing, which is around a PhD in mental health and infancy infrastructure. So in a sort of serendipitous way, I started off advocating for justice and really trying to shine a light on the mental health of young children in Uganda. But my passion has always been sort of the injustices within infrastructures and how our built environments are set up in a way that perpetuates injustices.

A (6:02)

What do you think it's going to take for the rest of the world, I guess, to pay attention to some of these regions? Admittedly, you know, you see it sometimes, you know, third page in the newspaper, like what's going on in a foreign country? And it somehow doesn't compute, right? Like it's too far away. I've never been there. What are some of the work that you're doing through Amnesty International or what are some of the suggestions you have about people to, I guess, become bigger global citizens? Right. Or have a better understanding of what's going on out there?

B (6:36)

So some of the work I'm doing with Amnesty International is around advocating for mental health as part of the human rights agenda. So we have had a long history of physical disabilities being viewed as important in terms of our EDI practices, in terms of the legislation around discrimination for edi. And even the hospital infrastructure structures are really geared around sort of the physical ailments. But what I have come to realize through my own PhD research and my work within this space is that mental health is just as important. If anything, it's an invisible ailment that a lot of people struggle with in today's climate, in today's inequalities. And one of the things that I hold close to my heart is how I can ensure that we are actively destigmatizing mental health not just for those who are affected by it, but those who are yet to be affected by it. So some of the work I'm doing at Amnesty International, like I said, is around that whole advocacy piece and also just bringing the right knowledge to these conversations. Because as an academic, I have been privileged to have access to, you know, up to date research, cutting edge innovations around mental health and, you know, telepsychiatry. All of these resources are out there, but what is missing is the link between the resources and the actual recipients of, of these resources. So a lot of the opportunities that I get to speak on podcasts or TV shows or any media interface is around advocating and shining a light on the resources available for people suffering from mental illness.

A (8:25)

When you started your charity, how long ago did you start your charity?

B (8:28)

And you kind of, we'll be celebrating 11 years this July, actually.

A (8:33)

Oh, wow. So what got you involved in that? I mean, I know this work got you involved in that, but I mean, why specifically children that were fighting in wars in Uganda. Like, what drew you to that? Because it sounds like. I mean, again, this is one of those concepts that people here in the States just. I mean, we just don't get it, I don't think. Right. I mean, like, you kind of know what's happening in the back of your mind. But what did you see there? What drew you to that cause specifically? And tell me a little bit about that work.

B (9:05)

Yeah. So originally, being from Uganda, I was always aware of the injustices that children were facing, and that was both through my interaction with children whenever I visited, but also understanding the societal influence on young children. But there was one key moment when I visited with my husband, he's from Sierra Leone, and we decided to go outside of Kampala just so that we can get a better experience of Uganda. And that's when we got more present to the influx of child soldiers and refugees and, you know, children who had been, in one way or another, really traumatized by the war in northern Uganda. So we came back, and at the time, I just finished law school, so I was definitely not anticipating being able to charity and take it to where I've taken it now, 11 years later. But there was a need for us to do something. I had a strong community of sort of lawyer friends and other professionals who were keen to support the initiative. So what started off as an opportunity for me to raise money around mental health and child soldiers, it was very specific. I knew that as a charity, I would not, not necessarily want to venture into the campaigns to rescue the children from the war. It was more around shedding a light on mental health and PTSD and also the injustices. Once the children were rescued from the war, there were issues around rehabilitation, around rehousing. Some of them had lost their parents in the war, so they did not necessarily have anywhere to be placed. And our charity was really set up to address those issues of rehabilit patient rehousing and RE education.

A (10:58)

So you were really focused on mental health and then the life, the needs that they had just to live life. Right. Shelter, food, everything else after the fact. Right. And by the way, the charity is called I Am Somebody's Child Soldier. So. Sure. I'm curious. When kids get pulled into these wars, like, what ages are we talking about when they get pulled in?

B (11:19)

The youngest child, former child soldier we have, I worked with, was 4 years old. And these are children who are also born in conflict. So what tends to happen? The young mothers are abused during the conflict and then they have a child at the hands of an army commander or some form of combatant. And then they have to raise this child within that surrounding of violence and conflict. So when they are rescued, albeit these mothers are young, they also come back with young children who, because they've been born in conflict, they've actually ended up either being forced to hold a gun or a machete or some form of tool that inflicts pain and injury. So when we have worked with these young children, it's really around the empathy and the compassion that we're able to bring to these conversations because it is traumatizing. And for those who are not familiar with ptsd, PTSD tends to show up later after you have left the scene of the incidents, or, you know, sometimes it shows up through a triggering event. So we've had children even as young as six years old who have finally settled back into school, and then they have a nightmare due to, you know, thunderstorm or something, and then that escalates into a whole episode. So I think, to answer your question, some of these children are quite young, and it's much harder when they're younger because the level of treatment and compassion that we bring to this is. Is different.

A (13:00)

Yeah. And it's like for some of them, if they're brought in that young, it's almost like they've never known anything different. They were born in conflict, they were raised for it, sort of. And now trying to normalize them back into, like, going to school and. Yeah. Having kind of a normal childhood. What percentage? And if you don't know the exact percentage, doesn't matter. But how common is it for kids to pulled into these conflicts at the time?

B (13:23)

So we launched 11 years ago in July, it was more prevalent, I must say. Now the war in northern Uganda has subsided, it's actually moved a little bit more towards the border, sort of Congo and even South Sudan. So at the time it was prevalent, it was around the Connie 2012 massive campaign that took place in the west, where there was concerted effort to capture the leader of the. Of the army and to hold into account, I must say, again, when it comes to age, it was very targeted regions within northern Uganda. And even to date, we have a youth boom in Uganda in terms of our population is a majority young people. So there is indeed a lot more effort that needs to happen when it comes to raising awareness of mental health, addressing mental health issues, and also destigmatizing mental health.

A (14:22)

How does the charity then, especially since there's not a lot of new recruits right now because the war has died down, has it do you stay with these kids for a long time? Do they continue to get services? Because I'd imagine, I mean, not only is it great that, you know, war subsided in that area, but probably also allows you guys to do your job right, because there's not such an influx of people coming in that you're actually to spend time and resources on the ones that you already have in the system, I would think.

B (14:51)

Brilliant question, because that's one of the conundrums we face as a charity that was set up with a very specific mandate and very specific beneficiary group. So what we have done, especially over the last five years, is work directly with schools in the region. And we know these schools have a vested interest in ensuring that young children get access to education, they get access to pastoral care. And through those partnerships, we then have a continuation of projects and programs that we deliver. So, for example, we've worked with Laro Ardra School, which is a school in northern Uganda and Gula specifically, and we've also built partnerships with other NGOs and grassroots organisations in the region so that we can then support them. And that's important thing. Three points. The first point is duplication. A number of charities operating in the west are sometimes accused, and rightly so, for duplicating work and duplicating efforts. Efforts and not necessarily capacity building. So our charity is very keen on ensuring that wherever we are operating, we are supporting existing organisations, whether or not they are registered NGOs or whether they are grassroots organisations, we partner with them to support their delivery of resources and projects. And then the second point is around that sustainable impact. So it's one thing being able to deliver a project. We are a registered charity in the uk, which means we report directly to the Charity Commission, but we are also responsible and we have a due diligence requirement when it comes to operating in Uganda, due to the Ugandan government's mandate. So we ensure that those compliance mechanisms and governance mechanisms are in place. And then the third point is around meeting the needs of the community and not just imposing what we, as a charity, think they need. And that's a lesson we learned very earlier on. You know, we set up thinking that we could build a rehabilitation center and have children go to this space where they can get treatment. But within the first 12 months, we realized actually what was really needed was access to education, access to, you know, clean water, access to safety at school. And it wasn't about building another infrastructure and, you know, having people access it, it was more around utilizing the existing infrastructures and, and ensuring that our projects were sustainable and relevant is.

A (17:21)

Has funding been tougher to come by? Since war is like not in everybody's face right now, are they like, well, hey, that's, it's not as big of a deal right now. Like, we know it's important, right, but it's not like top of mind, I would think. I don't know, just thinking like the Western that I am, like, it seems to be like we're very much about the shiny objects and what's, what's right in front of us instead of the ongoing care. Has that been a tougher concern for you guys the last few years?

B (17:51)

Yes, especially after Covid. So a number of charities had to close down during COVID you know, for some obvious reasons around fundraising, being unable to contact your beneficiary group, especially if you are an international charity like ours. But what really helped us as a charity was that we had already established those partnership models where we were working with other organizations and we had our beneficiaries sort of grouped in at locations so we could tailor our programs that way. And what we then pivoted to do was to scale back on the fundraising and work in another way in terms of maximizing the resources that were already on the ground and having policy engagement. So when you, especially as a charity register in the uk, when you're working in the country, you have to have policy stakeholders involved. You have to have those conversations with, you know, the ministers and the local chairman, because with their buy in, then it's not necessarily an issue of the funding, it's more of there is existing funding. How do we tap into that and how do we bring together a consortium so that all four or five organizations are tapping into the same resource to make a difference for the beneficiaries.

A (19:07)

I'm guessing your legal background has helped a ton with that.

B (19:10)

Definitely my legal background, but also my proximity to privilege. So I have been fortunate to study at some of the top schools in the uk. I'm currently working at University College London as an Associate professor, sorry, Associate Lecturer due to my PhD that I have been pursuing. But that proximity to those privileged spaces has given me the tools, the skills, the training to be able to hold a room of senior stakeholders, ministers, other legislators and have those difficult conversations. Because as much as we know what's happening, it's only when you have that conversation around a table of people who are very invested in making a difference and that's when change happens.

A (19:57)

That's amazing. And tell me about your Increased role these days with Amnesty International as well.

B (20:04)

Yes. So I was appointed as a vice chair of Amnesty International, and as a result of that appointment, I have been working closely with the chair of the board as well as the CEO to support, especially with governance and our EDI strategy. So as much as I am a trustee, I am responsible for how the charity is operating the fundraising. You know, all of the other responsibilities that come with being a trustee of a charity in the United Kingdom. But what I found as a vice chair of the board is in the subtlety of the difficult conversations that have to be had. And it's not to say that we as a charity are, you know, flailing in any way. It's more to say that there is still work that we can do. And my responsibility is to support the executive in as much as I can to do that. So I'm really enjoying the role. It's definitely been a learning curve, and it's also one that I always dreamed of being part of Amnesty in some shape or form. So to have been appointed to the board a few years ago was like a dream come true.

A (21:16)

How many people are at Amnesty? Like, between volunteers and permanent staff and all that? It's a big organization.

B (21:22)

It's a big organization. I'd love to quantify it, but I might get the numbers wrong. But, yeah, I'm part of the Amnesty International uk. So the way the structure is set up is we have the Amnesty International International, sorry, Amnesty International Secretariat, which is the governing body for all the Amnesty sections around the world. So I am the vice chair of the UK Amnesty International sect.

A (21:46)

How do you balance these two very busy endeavors? And you mentioned being married and you've got a day job, too. Yeah. So how do you do it? I mean, are you. Are you just a super good calendar blocker? I mean, what does it look like for you?

B (22:01)

A super good calendar blocker and great team. So I always say the team individuals. I have both at the charity, but also Amnesty International, we've got a great group of individuals who are board members, executives, so really leaning heavily on the team. That's how I have managed to balance it. But I think the love that I have for what I do. So, you know, I love being an advocate. I love being able to speak truth to power where I can. And I also love researching because I firmly believe it's not so much in who you're talking to, it's also what you're presenting them with. You know, if you come with the evidence, you come with the robust research and you put that on the table, whether you're, you know, discussing it or if it's an. A printed format. That is a great way to start a conversation and a great way to end the conversation in terms of actionables. So my mandate is always, okay, what are we here to talk about? What are we going to do after we've talked about it? And who is going to hold us to account personally?

A (23:04)

Are you getting enough time for yourself? Do you make enough time for yourself?

B (23:09)

The question is making the time. You know, you have to be very intentional around the work life balance, especially somebody like myself. I love what I do. I'm very passionate about the different hats that I wear. But I am also very aware of mental health and stress, burnout, you know, anxiety, depression. All of these illnesses do come from some form of triggering environment. So I also take the time to, you know, meditate. I've talked on different podcasts around my mental health routine, but I do advocate for, you know, meditating spiritual person as well. So I try to incorporate that in my daily practices. And I also have mentors and sponsors around me who are always advocating for me in my absence. That has helped so much. So some of the opportunities I have been able to tap into, it's because mentor, a sponsor has spoken about me and introduced me to that. And what I have tended to do is also make my capacity known. So it's easy when you're a junior or lawyer or a junior academic to say yes to everything. But what I have learned the hard way is actually to say no to something so that I can say yes to the things that really. And the things that I can really do.

A (24:28)

Well, I love the way you phrased it. Make your capacity known. You know, I don't think people do that enough where it's, I don't want to do your thing. These are the guardrails, right? This is what I have to offer. This is what I'm done. I have to think, too. It's really good that you have that balance. Because when you love what you do, which you've said multiple times, and I can clearly see it, you know, you're passionate about it, you're proud of it, and it makes such a difference, right? I mean, you know, sometimes it's like, but if we could just get this piece of legislation through or if we could just get this policy through, right? And it's. But it's not a sprint either, right? It's a marathon. And you've got to be able to kind of endure the whole race Exactly.

B (25:06)

And the love that you have for something, could you, you know, it could be a double edged sword. So I always say to my mentees that it's one thing to know what you want to do and to love it and to be passionate, but it's another thing to have those boundaries in place. Otherwise you end up over committing and under delivering or you just end up, you know, burnt out. And we're living in a generation now where people work from home, so it's easier to say yes to a million things because you're not having to commute there, you're not having to fly there. But it's very important to be aware of your capacity and to communicate that with, you know, some power and some conviction so that the other person really is enrolled in what you are up to.

A (25:53)

Yeah, it always seems like whenever there's something that creates new capacity that we just fill it right away. Right. I mean, whether it's technology, whether it's working from home, whatever, it's. It's like I don't feel any more relaxed now that we're working from home. You know what I mean? Like, it's like I'm just working a little bit more like you're saying, so tell me, I don't remember if we were off air or on air when you mentioned that you were writing a book right now, but tell me about that process. What? Is it okay to ask you what the book's going to be about?

B (26:21)

Yes, definitely. I'm super excited about it actually. So it's been a passion project of mine for the last few years and it's been an experience because I do consider myself an academic. But actually what I've found with writing a book, with my personal reflections, it's a lot more around thinking of the audience, thinking of who's going to read it, and knowing that my story, which I share in the book, I am sharing it so that others can find inspiration in how they navigate the not for profit sector and also how they navigate leadership positions. Because, you know, I'm a woman of color. I have been fortunate to step into spaces because of those individuals that have opened the doors for me. But without that blueprint, without them sharing those tips and tools of the trade, I would have not known how to step into this space. So really the book for me is, you know, a space to share this, but also a space for reflexivity and thinking back on. Okay, what would the younger Shira want to know, having set up a charity almost 11 years ago, and what other, you know, key Fundamentals to leadership as a young black female in this space.

A (27:42)

So different than that academic space that you've been in where you're maybe writing a thesis on something, you know, back in the day. Versus, this is like, no, how can I communicate? So that the receiver gets the message in the way it was intended, Almost coming like a bit of a mentor in the space to those are that are coming up.

B (28:02)

Exactly. And so without giving too much away, it is a book that looks at advocacy from an introvert's perspective. Because I am an introvert. Although I love speaking on podcasts and TV shows, my natural habitat is, you know, introspection. And being an introverted advocate comes with its own challenges. So again, I put together a few sorts of blueprints for how introverts can still be great advocates and really speak up for those issues that matter the most to them.

A (28:35)

Yeah, I think. And you know, not to tell you because you're living it, but some of the best leaders I know are natural introverts. Because I think introverts, it tends to be less about them and more about the cause. Right. So it's less of a spotlight on me and more about the cause. And. But introverts need to learn how to step into that part of their personality when needed. Right. When to own the room, when to step up, when to stand up. Right. And when to go more back into their natural state.

B (29:08)

Yes, 100%. And what allowed me to step into my. My power and speak up was because of the injustices that I had seen. And I noticed that nobody was necessarily speaking up. You know, people were looking at what was happening. Their research was there. But that voice behind mental illness and young children, especially within the Global south context, was missing. And, you know, this is obviously 10, 11 years ago. There is a lot more happening in the space. But at that time, we as a charity and myself as an individual, were some of the more vocal actors in this space.

A (29:48)

Well, it's interesting because somebody told me once that, you know, we'll do more for others typically than we'll do for ourselves. And it. It was those kids that. That gave you your voice. Right. To your point. Like, if someone back then would have said, get up and talk about yourself for a half an hour, you probably would have been like, God, no. But if it was like, stand up and tell me why you're passionate about what needs to be done down here, that's the thing that sounds like it got you moving.

B (30:15)

Oh, 100%. And even now, when I get invitations to speak, you know, at a podcast or as a keynote speaker, it's always around. Okay, how can I advance the agenda of mental illness and young children as much as I hold other hats as working with Amnesty International, working at UCL as a associate lecturer, My core advocacy piece is always going to around mental health and young children.

A (30:43)

Well, it's amazing work that you're doing. It's so good to meet you. I know we've been trying to be getting scheduled for a little bit and just really admire the work that you're doing. It's so inspiring.

B (30:52)

Thank you. Thank you so much, Ken. It's been a pleasure being on your podcast. I am very honored to be able to speak to yourself and to the audience who end up listening to this. So thank you very much for the opportunity.

A (31:05)

Of course. And let me know when that book comes out. We'll bring you back, okay?

B (31:08)

Oh, yes, definitely. Thank you.

A (31:10)

Amazing. Thanks so much. Thanks for listening to another episode of the Leaders Lab podcast. If you enjoyed listening as much as we enjoyed making it for you, please head over to Apple Podcast or Spotify or wherever you're listening and leave us a five star review. And while you're there, make sure to follow the show. That'll make sure that new episodes get downloaded to your device so you can listen from wherever you are. Thanks again and we'll see you next week in the Leaders Lab.