Ep. 11: How to step up and be the best boss, with Sabina Nawaz

Summary

Summary of "The Leadership Dance" Episode 11: "How to Step Up and Be the Best Boss" with Sabina Nawaz

Release Date: March 3, 2025

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Introduction

In Episode 11 of The Leadership Dance, host Alissa Hsu Lynch engages in a profound conversation with Sabina Nawaz, an esteemed executive coach and former Microsoft executive. This episode delves into the nuances of leadership, particularly focusing on the challenges and transformations that come with rising to managerial positions. Sabina shares her personal journey, insights from her extensive experience, and the core principles from her latest book, "You're the Boss: Becoming the Manager You Want to Be."

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Sabina Nawaz’s Background and Career Journey

Early Life and Education

Sabina Nawaz opens up about her upbringing in Calcutta, India, where societal norms often direct individuals towards careers in medicine or engineering. Despite these pressures, Sabina emphasizes the pivotal role her parents played in fostering independence and prioritizing education:

“My parents really focused on my education. They got me a first-rate education... they gave me the choice of continuing my studies.”
(00:33)

Transition to the United States

Moving to the U.S. for higher education was a significant shift for Sabina. Attending Smith College in Northampton, Massachusetts, provided a stark contrast to the bustling metropolis of Calcutta. She highlights the cultural and environmental adjustments she had to make, including missteps like confusing red mailboxes in India with blue ones in the U.S.:

“I tried to mail my first letter home in a fire hydrant... I had no idea that there would be a blue mailbox.”
(04:56)

Career at Microsoft

After graduating from Smith College and the University of Massachusetts, Sabina embarked on a challenging job search, submitting 180 applications before landing her first role at Microsoft. Initially passionate about coding, she soon realized it wasn't her true calling. With the support of a manager, she transitioned into roles focused on professional and executive development, ultimately overseeing the development of over 11,000 managers and nearly 1,000 executives:

“I had no idea what I was doing. I just came in with street smarts and lived experience as a manager.”
(09:34)

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From Engineer to Executive Coach

Sabina recounts her sabbatical from Microsoft, which became a turning point in her career. During this period, she founded a nonprofit theater company and began coaching colleagues, leading her to question her career trajectory. This introspection culminated in her pivot to executive coaching, where she applied her extensive experience to help others navigate leadership challenges:

“It felt like a waste of time to pursue something whose formula I already knew. And that's when everything changed.”
(08:16)

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Launching "You're the Boss"

Inspiration Behind the Book

Sabina reveals that her book was inspired by her personal struggles as a manager under immense pressure. Balancing high-level corporate responsibilities with the challenges of parenthood led her to realize the detrimental effects of stress on leadership behavior:

“I micromanaged. I forgot to be empathetic... people were crying after meetings with me.”
(12:31)

Key Themes

One of the central arguments in her book is that pressure, not power, corrupts leadership. She provides tangible examples and early warning signs for leaders to recognize and mitigate the adverse effects of stress:

“Pressure can come at you in a number of different ways... the challenge as a boss is the higher up you go, the more pressure you have.”
(14:10)

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Managing Under Pressure

Sabina shares a poignant example of a client who, under significant stress, snapped at an employee over a delayed flight and lack of snacks:

“I just snapped at him and I said, we don't have any time here, give me your laptop.”
(14:10)

She outlines four key warning signs that pressure and power are negatively impacting leadership:

1. Lack of Dissent: “Nobody ever argues with you or offers a different point of view.”
   (14:30)

2. Overwork Perception: Feeling like the only one putting in the effort.
   (14:30)

3. Inflated Self-Perception: Being perceived as funnier, smarter, or faster than reality.
   (16:00)

4. Justifications and Excuses: Relying on “yeah, but...” to rationalize behavior.
   (16:00)

Personal Reflections

Sabina candidly shares her own experiences with stress and the importance of having trusted individuals to provide honest feedback:

“The minute you become manager, you stop getting the full truth. So it is great to have a partner, to have a coach.”
(18:10)

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Prioritizing Self-Care: Managing Yourself First

One of the pivotal concepts from Sabina’s book is "Managing Yourself First". She emphasizes that leaders must prioritize their well-being to effectively manage others and drive business success:

“If they don't take care of themselves, that pressure and combined with that fatigue is going to take away from them taking care of others or the business.”
(18:49)

Implementing Self-Care

Sabina introduces the idea of microhabits—small, manageable actions that build over time to foster sustained self-care:

“Start super, super, super small... instead of... I'm gonna do one push up a day.”
(22:08)

She shares her personal microhabits, such as smiling once a day and doing at least one jumping jack, which help her stay grounded amid the pressures of her book launch and professional responsibilities:

“One is simply to smile once a day... another is at least one Jumping jack.”
(22:18)

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Authenticity in Leadership

Sabina redefines authenticity as a plural and context-dependent concept rather than a singular, static trait. She argues that true authenticity is about aligning actions with core values, even as different roles and environments demand varying expressions of oneself:

“Our authenticity is not singular, nor is it static... Context and role make a big difference in what part of us comes in.”
(33:19)

Differentiating from Compartmentalizing

While authenticity involves adapting to different contexts, Sabina distinguishes it from mere compartmentalizing by ensuring that changes in behavior remain true to one's underlying values:

“As long as you're not then putting on something that they're all true to you... it's just that the context, the compartment that you're in changes.”
(35:35)

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Cultivating Superpowers in Leadership

Through her coaching practice, Sabina helps leaders identify and harness their unique strengths, or "superpowers," using a process inspired by Bernard Haldane’s dependable strengths methodology. This involves:

1. Identifying Good Experiences: Reflecting on past successes and moments of pride.
2. Extracting Recurring Strengths: Pinpointing patterns that highlight inherent strengths.
3. Amplifying Strengths: Encouraging leaders to leverage these strengths further for exceptional performance.

“There is so much opportunity for growth in our strengths... how can we make you play even bigger in those arenas?”
(29:43)

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Fostering Innovation Through Blank Space

Sabina introduces the concept of "blank space", dedicated periods where leaders unplug and allow their minds to wander, fostering creativity and innovation:

“Take two hours together, back to back once a week... you just sit there and think... most of our insights come when we're doing nothing.”
(30:02)

This practice encourages leaders to step away from constant activity, promoting mental rest and space for breakthrough ideas.

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Embracing Unique Leadership Styles

Sabina discusses the importance of embracing one's uniqueness in leadership rather than conforming to traditional corporate molds. She reflects on a pivotal moment when she realized the futility of trying to blend in with her male colleagues at Microsoft:

“I was trying for these first four years... pretty much I was trying to be one of the guys... I realized, wait, I'm not a man.”
(26:40)

She advocates for leaders to identify and leverage their unique strengths to contribute authentically to their organizations.

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Conclusion and Final Thoughts

In wrapping up the conversation, Sabina Nawaz offers sage advice to her younger self and to current and aspiring leaders:

“Don't believe yourself... pause and say, wait a minute, how is this showing up on the other side?”
(32:11)

She underscores the importance of self-awareness, continual growth, and maintaining authenticity amidst the evolving demands of leadership roles.

Closing Remarks

Alissa Hsu Lynch concludes the episode by congratulating Sabina on her book launch and encouraging listeners to embrace the insights shared to become the best managers they can be.

“Thank you so much for joining me on the podcast, and I look forward to seeing you at your book launch in Seattle soon.”
(36:27)

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Key Takeaways

• Leadership Under Pressure: Recognize how stress can alter managerial behavior and implement strategies to mitigate its effects.
• Self-Care as a Leadership Mandate: Prioritize personal well-being to enhance professional performance and empathy.
• Authentic Leadership: Embrace multiple facets of one’s identity, aligning actions with core values across different contexts.
• Microhabits for Sustainable Growth: Implement small, consistent habits to foster long-term positive changes.
• Fostering Innovation: Allocate dedicated "blank space" time to nurture creativity and strategic thinking.

Sabina Nawaz’s insights provide a comprehensive roadmap for leaders aiming to navigate the complexities of managerial roles while staying true to themselves and fostering a positive, productive work environment.

Transcript

[Elisa Sue Lynch]

Why is it so risky as we're promoted to that next level or shifting from being a star player to being the coach?

[Sabina Nawaz]

The reason it's the riskiest time when you're promoted in your career is because what is a strength of yours can be seen very differently when your position is more elevated by the people who you need to work with. Let's say a strength of yours is your strategic. How might people view that from. From the other side of that power divide? They're probably gonna think you're manipulative. Strength of yours is attention to detail.

[Elisa Sue Lynch]

That'll show up as micromanaging.

[Sabina Nawaz]

Micromanaging. So you need to start to change your vantage point of this is how I am from my perspective to this is how I'm viewed from other people's perspective.

[Elisa Sue Lynch]

Hi there and welcome to the Leadership Dance. I'm your host, Elisa sue lynch, and I'm joined in the studio today by Sabina Nawaz. Sabina is an executive coach who advises C level executives and teams at Fortune 500 corporations, government agencies, nonprofits, and academic institutions around the world. Sabina gives speeches and teaches faculty at Northeastern and Drexel universities. During her 14 years at Microsoft, she went from managing software development teams to leading the company's executive development and succession planning efforts for over 11,000 managers. And nearly 1,000 executives advised Bill Gates and Steve Ballmer directly. She has written for and been featured in Harvard Business Review, Wall Street Journal, Forbes, Fast Company, and more. She is also the author of a brand new book, you're the becoming the manager you want to be. Welcome to the podcast, Sabina.

[Sabina Nawaz]

Thanks so much, Elisa. Excited to talk with you.

[Elisa Sue Lynch]

So, Sabina, you were born in Calcutta and spent the first 20 years of your life in India. What did you dream of becoming when you were younger and how did your upbringing influence how you approached your career?

[Sabina Nawaz]

I dreamed of becoming a doctor because everybody growing up in my vintage and our socioeconomic circle would be a doctor or an engineer. Those were the appropriate fields to be in. And then your question was, how did my upbringing influence my career? Yes, I think that for me, my parents really focused on my education. They got me a first rate education, no question about that. And when some of my friends were getting married and arranged marriages, my parents gave me the choice of continuing my studies. So first of all, it was that educational foundation that really helped. And they essentially said, go study, go make great things happen. We know they'll come with education. They were both highly educated themselves, so I think that was point number one. And then I studied Computer science and engineering, of course, didn't go the doctor route, went the engineer route for a long time. And then I think my upbringing also helped me be quite independent. Even though it was. It's a very community based culture. I was given a lot of autonomy and so I can write a different chapter a different way, which is where I made my career pivot.

[Elisa Sue Lynch]

Wow, that's pretty amazing because I think in a lot of South Asian families you are pressured to behave a certain way or go into certain fields. And it sounds amazing that your parents allowed you to be so independent. Can you talk about when you moved to the United States? I believe you came to the US to attend Smith College, which is where my sister also went to school. And then how was that different for you than growing up in India?

[Sabina Nawaz]

Couldn't be more different. I also had some very stereotypical views of what the US would be like from watching James Bond movies. So I'm thinking where are the people around the corners with their guns and the fast action and the car chases? And I was in sleepy little Northampton, Massachusetts at Smith College with an enrollment of 2,300 students, which was a very, very different thing from a bustling metropolis that Calcutta is. The noise, the population, the density. It's a full on sensory experience. Next big shock was the snowfall. I didn't have the right shoes. There was this hill we had to go down and I was always ending up on my butt because I would have traction shoes till I clued in. It was an incredibly different experience.

[Elisa Sue Lynch]

Were the other students welcoming of you?

[Sabina Nawaz]

Very, very. And there was a lot of curiosity too about, oh, you're from India, what, what's that like? Let's go have coffee and talk about that. You know, this was well before the Internet, so it's not like people knew a ton about different things or could look it up. It was more direct conversation. I have to say one of the things that also happened, one of the many things, is that I tried to mail my first letter home in a fire hydrant.

[Elisa Sue Lynch]

What?

[Sabina Nawaz]

Yes, because mailboxes in Calcutta are red. And I had no idea that there would be a blue mailbox. So I'm, I'm looking at the thing, you know, they told me just at the intersection of these two streets. I went there and here's the red, the only red structure there. And I'm looking around, trying to find the opening where I can mail my letter. So there was this somewhat of a getting used to a very different vernacular almost. English is one of my first languages. It wasn't a language issue, but more how things are done and even what color mailboxes are was very, very different. And Navisa, this is no different than when I tell managers new level, new rules. It's, you're gonna be transposed into a new set of circumstances every time you get promoted.

[Elisa Sue Lynch]

You know, Sabina, one of the things I think about when moving from one role to another or from say I moved from Johnson and Johnson to Google, which were very different environments, is what can I bring from my prior role and my prior experiences into that new company. I have something, some foundation that I can rely on while I'm learning everything that's new. Did you find that that was similar in moving from the US to India?

[Sabina Nawaz]

Elisa? I'm not sure I was as conscious of it as you have been in your career. I was 20. But I think the thing that I brought with me is my sense of connection. Again, growing up in a very community oriented environment with a lot of warmth and connection, I think I brought that with me.

[Elisa Sue Lynch]

That's wonderful. So after graduating from Smith College, you got a job at Microsoft and I listened to your TEDx talk. And in that you shared that it took 180 job applications to land that job, but then you ended up hating it. So can you tell us more about your career journey from that first role as an engineer at Microsoft to eventually becoming an executive coach?

[Sabina Nawaz]

So yes, Smith College, then University of Massachusetts, 180 job applications. But this was the first company that called me, interviewed me and hired me and I was in love. By the third interview, I had accepted the interview just because I'd never been to Seattle and I thought this is a free trip. But it turned out very differently. I loved everything about the company from the get go, being surrounded by such smart people. Most of us were single, there was a great social life outside together. And I discovered that coding was not my sweet spot. However, being technical and being a computer scientist was still in the cards thanks to a really supportive manager who helped me explore other roles that could work other than sitting on the keyboard and pounding in code. So that turned out really, really well. And I had a great time working on a variety of teams, things like Windows, msn, Internet Explorer, and then a lot of products that never went anywhere because they were version Zero products. And I loved that. I love that. Sort of entrepreneurial, without the risk with the deep pockets of a larger company. And after a little over nine years, I went on a sabbatical. Microsoft offered an eight week sabbatical. This was the first time in my life that I did very little. I started a nonprofit theater company, went Zealand for a couple of weeks.

[Elisa Sue Lynch]

Sorry, sorry, Savina, you did very little, but you started a nonprofit company in.

[Sabina Nawaz]

Eight weeks and went to New Zealand, New York and started coaching some of my father in law's colleagues. But there was a lot of time spent on the couch doing nothing. And of course when that happens, all these thoughts start coming unbidden. I had very much been on the path of I want to become a corporate vice president in the company. And suddenly I realized it was no longer outside my grasp. It was just a matter of time. And that's when everything changed. Because it felt to me like a waste of time to go pursue something whose formula I already knew. And then I went shoot, what do I do with my life? What do I do with my career? And I recognized that people had given me a lot of feedback about being good in front of people, good with people. And I thought, well, maybe I'll do some people oriented stuff. I had no idea what that would be till a friend from the outside suggested Microsoft probably has a department like that. And that's how I got into this second career. I wasn't sure I was experimenting, but my boss from the product side had left me a very wide open door to come back if I wanted to. So it was really a no risk proposition. And that's how I made that switch.

[Elisa Sue Lynch]

So can you talk more about what that new role looked like and what you ended up doing at Microsoft?

[Sabina Nawaz]

I first was in charge of the development, the professional development of 11 and a half thousand managers that we had. There was a team of four people. We had a lot of challenges, but this was an amazing team. And without raising budget or headcount, we increased our productivity and our yield 400%. It was really, really wonderful. Now initially I had no idea what I was doing. I just came in with street smarts and lived experience as a manager. But I didn't have formal training in this field. So my team also was gracious enough to coach me and mentor me and teach me. And then of course I went for training and certifications and so on. But initially it was me simply trying to think about running a business and however I'm used to running businesses and then over time understanding more about the craft of executive development. After running management development, I was also put in charge of running leadership development, executive development, employee development. There were 90,000 employees. All the professional development that was done across the enterprise and then also take on succession planning. So these were all brand New fields to me when I first took them on and it was learn by doing. It was really showing up to a meeting with Bill and Steve to discuss the succession planning process for the company and going I better call around other companies and figure out what they do in this area. What does this even mean? Sure enough, you know, we ended up benchmarking 30 different companies and understanding it. There were plenty of resources to learn from. But it was again another one of those fire hydrant mailbox moments of where am I? And HR feels like a very different part of the company of most companies than does the product side. So navigating the dynamics there, the interpersonal communications, the minefield sometimes was a whole different game than what I had been used to. The other thing that was different is so far I had been working on my product and within the walls of our teams. Whereas these roles, each of these was enterprise wide. So it was a fantastic opportunity to have a sweeping view of what it looks like from the top down. How executives are thought about, how they're promoted, how they're demoted. What do we care about? What do we want to infuse in them? What values do we want to see over and over again? There was so much to learn.

[Elisa Sue Lynch]

I want to transition now to congratulate you on the launch of your new book. You're the boss becoming the manager you want to be. So all of that experience that you got at Microsoft over years and through all the managers and leaders that you coach, I'm sure you are trying to distill into this book. Can you talk about what inspired you to write the book? Who is it for and what is it about?

[Sabina Nawaz]

The first thing that inspired me was myself. Because I ended up after all of that becoming a lousy manager at Microsoft. It didn't start out that way. I started out as a really good boss. Often people would say best boss ever. Because I deeply, deeply cared about people. But once I had my first child and went back to work, things changed. There was high pressure. I was working at the high with the highest levels of the company and I had a sleepless infant at home. And that pressure didn't just squeeze out my time, I think it squeezed out my humanity. I micromanaged. I forgot to be empathetic. I figured these are adults, they'll, they'll figure it out. Not realizing what impact that had on people until I got feedback from a colleague that people were crying after meetings with me and that was a gut punch. So that ever the engineer made me want to reverse engineer. What happens with the same person who can be best boss ever and worst boss ever. What's that? What are the factors that go in there? When I coach people, I interview about a dozen of each person's colleagues to find out how they're viewed. And I have 12,000 pages of verbatim interview data about what people think of their bosses. So these factors, this, this sort of genesis of it, and then the data that I had made me think I have a vantage point that I'd like to bring to the world.

[Elisa Sue Lynch]

Absolutely. Now in the book, you argue that pressure, not power, is what corrupts, and that pressure and power can derail even well meaning managers. Can you give an example of where you've witnessed this and what early warning signs should leaders watch out for to prevent this?

[Sabina Nawaz]

My example, of course, when I was under pressure, the same person who was best boss ever now is barking out orders, micromanaging all of that. I have countless people I coach where I see them as perfectly fine people. You know, most bosses don't wake up in the morning going, I'm going to make my team miserable. They get up with the best of intentions, but it doesn't land that way. So pressure can come at you in a number of different ways. I just had a call actually with somebody I coach and she said, oh my gosh, confession time. I just lost it with this person. And I said, what happened? She's like, my flight was delayed by three hours. I had not eaten, I was starving. I usually carry snacks in my bag because I know I get hangry. So she even had some strategies, but she was out of snacks. And we had this deadline that we had to go make this major presentation and this person wasn't getting it and they kept interrupting me with stuff that wasn't on the mark and I just snapped at him and I said, we don't have any time here, give me your laptop. And I took over and started creating the presentation myself. So that's just a small episodic example, but all of us are under pressure, tremendous pressure. And think about, I mean, you don't even have to be a boss. I don't think anybody is exempt either from pressure or how they react to it. The challenge as a boss is the higher up you go, the more pressure you have. And so you're never going to be pressure free, but how do you learn how to be pressure proof? And one of those ways is to actually start to recognize what are the signs that your combination of pressure and then power where no one is going to tell you the truth. Get in your way. The book actually has a list of 42 questions called 360 yourself. Here's four to shortcut that from that set. One, nobody ever argues with you or offers a different point of view. Two, you feel like you're the one who's working the hardest. You're always responding first. You're staying late, you're getting in early. You have more initiative. You're the one setting the agenda for every meeting. Because it's crickets when you ask for other people's ideas. That's another sign that you might be in some troubled territory. Another would be people think that you are funnier, smarter, faster than you actually know you are. One wise CEO, right before they became CEO, joked, tomorrow I'm going to be a lot funnier. Not they're changing, but their circumstances changing. The fourth one is you justify your actions with a big yeah, but. Yeah, but this is an especially busy time of year. Yeah, but my team is already crushed under deadlines. I'm going to just take care of this for them. Yeah, but I succeed despite that or because of that. So the more yeah, buts you have, likely you're hiding something even from yourself. Yes.

[Elisa Sue Lynch]

I remember earlier in my career when I was a manager and I also had two young kids at home, that when I was under pressure, I would take it out of my kids. Unfortunately, you know, I'd come home and snap at them. And it took me a while to start recognizing that, okay, this is not good. And it's not them, it's actually me. So that's something really critical for managers to recognize.

[Sabina Nawaz]

Absolutely. Absolutely. And this happened as recently as last night. For me, as with the book launch, there's a lot going on. And my husband said, you know, Sabina, just because you're under stress doesn't give you license to be snippy. And he said it in the nicest possible way. And I went, you're so right, Matthew. You're absolutely right. So am I always following what I've written in the book? No, because we're all human.

[Elisa Sue Lynch]

You just bring up something that is important, which is sometimes we can't recognize it in ourselves. So having people around us that we trust to call us out, I think is actually a good thing. My husband does that as well.

[Sabina Nawaz]

That's great. Yes. And it's futile to hope for feedback from people who are reporting to you. The minute you become manager, you stop getting the full truth. So it is great to have a partner, to have a coach, to have somebody, ideally who doesn't have as much at stake in the situation. Who can give you honest tough love?

[Elisa Sue Lynch]

Yeah. What is that phrase? It's lonely at the top, unfortunately. So one of your book's other key principles is managing yourself first. How did you come up with this concept? How did you learn about this in your own career? And what do you recommend to put that into practice?

[Sabina Nawaz]

When I work with CEOs, we often write out an informal job description. What's in your job description? And the number one item I encourage them to put on their job description is taking care of themselves. Because if they don't take care of themselves, that pressure and combined with that fatigue is going to take away from them taking care of others or the business. So it's not just about themselves. You're doing this for the business. I learned about this through my own experience where I was working super hard and I got. I started getting vertigo and I would try to power through that, except that just wasn't possible because the room was spinning and I was throwing up. And after they ruled out all the major causes, possible scary causes, and said this is just stress, I realized I was just pushing myself so hard and so far that this was my body's way of shutting down and saying, nope, you're not going anywhere today. So I had to learn the hard way. And it took me a few years to change my ways, to become much more mindful about sleep and all sorts of other things. But it's no different than the announcement that you hear on airplanes about putting on your own air mask, oxygen mask before others. Now usually when I used to hear that announcement, I would think, yeah, right, I'm gonna put on my mask before I put it on for my young kids. Of course not. What kind of mother would do that? Well, I was flying from north to Seattle one day and we lost 20,000 foot of elevation in a matter of seconds. The oxygen mask popped down. Fortunately, I was not traveling with my children. But what I did learn that day was that it's a matter of seconds before you lose consciousness if you don't put on that oxygen. Oh, wow. I can try to do this for my kids, but I'm likely to lose consciousness and then they're likely to lose consciousness and it's a lo lose. So you really do have to strap on your mask first before you do something for others. How do you do this? Now? I don't think I need to give people advice on the various ways we have of self care, whether it's working out, whether it's sleeping, whether it's eating well, whether it's putting your gym shoes right by your bed. We've got those hacks. And despite those, we don't always do it. So the thing instead, I would say is start super, super, super small. Like, really ridiculously small. I work with overachievers, and I'm sure you do too, and they want to set big, hairy, audacious goals. That's the surefire way to fail. If the only thing you're binging on is Netflix, you're not gonna become a gym rat and binge on the gym overnight and go every morning for half an hour. What if instead, you said, I'm gonna do one push up a day? And this happened with one of my clients. So this, I call this Microhabits Ridiculously Small. But you do it every day. So she started doing one pushup a day, and after a few months, she was up to 10. And a year later, when we got together in person, she dropped down on the floor of the restaurant and gave us 30 pushups. Wow. That's only because she started with one a day and kept it to one a day. So microhabits, whatever it is that you're trying to change, whatever hack you're trying to put in your life, do it in such a small increment that it would be more work to say no than it would be to do it.

[Elisa Sue Lynch]

Sabina, you mentioned earlier that with this book launch, you are under a lot of pressure. Is there a microhabit that you are trying to practice now that keeps you grounded?

[Sabina Nawaz]

Yes, I actually practice several microhabits, and I extract them in something that the book calls a yes list, which is the end of the day, yes, no, yes, no. Did I do this? So it's further helps reinforce what's going on. And am I for real? Am I really doing this or not? A few of my current microhabits, One is simply to smile once a day. It sounds silly, but if I look back while I'm. And the way I do this, I piggyback it. So when I'm brushing my teeth at night before going to bed, I think, huh, did I smile today? And if I didn't, I look in the mirror and I go, I mean, it sounds really strange, but going, even going through the motions gives me a high. Like, yes, I did it. It gives me that gold star that we were craving in kindergarten. We're no different now. And then the next day, I'm more motivated to do that. So that's one I do. The other is at least one Jumping jack. Now I'm a runner and I'm training for a marathon. But some days right now I don't have time to run, so I want to do at least one jumping jack. And there I've done it for today. That's another. It just gets me up from sitting on my behind and gets me moving. Now, some days I'll end up doing a lot more than one, but I get credit as long as I do at least one.

[Elisa Sue Lynch]

I love the idea of microhabits and just focusing on something small that we can do every day and then building on that over time. So you've said that being promoted is the riskiest time in your career, but it's also something that most of us strive for as we're developing in our careers. So why is it so risky? And what should people be thinking about as we're promoted to that next level? Or as you describe it in your book, shifting from being a star player to being the coach?

[Sabina Nawaz]

Lisa, the reason it's the riskiest time when you're promoted in your career is because what is a strength of yours can be seen very differently when your position is more elevated by the people who you need to work with. For example, let's say a strength of yours is you're strategic. How might people view that from the other side of that power divide? They're probably going to think you're manipulative. Strength of yours is attention to detail.

[Elisa Sue Lynch]

That'll show up as micromanaging.

[Sabina Nawaz]

Micromanaging. You haven't changed, your circumstances have changed. So you need to fit the circumstances. You need to start to change. Your vantage point of this is how I am from my perspective to this is how I'm viewed from other people's perspective, especially people who, the more I get promoted, who don't have an opportunity to know me as closely as in the past where we're not working shoulder to shoulder all the time. So they're going to make assumptions, they're going to magnify everything you do. You've got to be really aware of that. Otherwise the very things that made you successful are now going to tank your performance, not because they are the wrong things to do, but because other people are viewing it differently.

[Elisa Sue Lynch]

So those are great examples. Can you talk about tangibly? What can someone do who maybe is strategic but being perceived as manipulative or, you know, detail oriented but being perceived as micromanaging? What. What can a person change?

[Sabina Nawaz]

Yes. So one question to ask themselves first is where do I need to be in the details and where not where is it serving me and where is it not serving? When I'm strategic, am I being explicit about what I am doing? So much of this is about being explicit and communication, communicating. The longest chapter in my book is called Communication Fault Lines because there are so many of them. It is the number two complaint people have about their bosses. So how can you say, look, we're going to go into this meeting, you're going to hear me frame this topic this way because we want to make sure that that team understands what's most important to us versus just showing up and framing it in a way that your team is not used to you hearing. They're going to go, wait, is she being inconsistent? What's going on? So being explicit when you are being strategic, for example, would help.

[Elisa Sue Lynch]

In this podcast, I want to inspire people to embrace what makes them unique, rather than trying to conform to traditional norms in corporate America. You have been very successful in the corporate world. Did you feel like you ever faced any barriers in getting to where you are today?

[Sabina Nawaz]

I have been incredibly fortunate, and I don't think I can give you any explicit barriers that I faced. However, to your point about being unique, what I did realize about four years into my career, I would meet every day with two of my male colleagues, and one day they said, yeah, you're just like us. You're just one of us. It was a throwaway comment for them, but for me, it was a significant moment. It became crystal clear to me that what I had been trying for these first four years as a woman in tech, as the only technical woman in the building, pretty much I was trying to be one of the guys. And here I was in the club, at least with these two people. And that's the moment I realized, wait, I'm not one of the guys. I am not a man. So what is it about me that I can bring in without just trying to be a chameleon and blend in to whatever there is? So if violence, absolutely not a barrier, it was the opposite, in fact. Recognizing what are you? What is the unique sauce you're going to bring into the room? This does not mean that you should not read the room and make sure you don't stick out so badly that you're going to be ejected. But it is also about recognizing what is your unique superpower and how you bring that to the table.

[Elisa Sue Lynch]

And in your coaching practice, how do you help leaders find out what their superpowers are?

[Sabina Nawaz]

That's a great question. We. Sometimes it just comes up as I'm talking with them and I'm understanding how they work, how they approach problems. I go, wow, you seem really great at connecting the dots, the disparate things, or you seem really great at being strategic or whatever it might be. There is also a process I follow which was developed many years ago. It's based on somebody called Bernard Haldane and his dependable strengths process, which is having the people I coach identify several good experiences in their life, both life and work that they did, they enjoyed doing, and they're proud of the results. When we look at all of those experiences together, say about 20 of them, invariably there are three or four strengths that show up repeatedly. Now, we have empirical proof that these are not only strengths that you imagine, but strengths that you have actually deployed all through your life. So we extract those strengths through going through that process. And there's so much opportunity for growth in our strengths. I remember this one person who had gotten an. He had gotten an online360 before we had started our coaching relationship. And he came into the coaching call with a bit of a long face going, you know, I've gotten fives pretty much across the board, five being the highest rating from his coworkers. So what am I going to work on? And I said, you're going to work on exactly that. The things you got a five on, because those are the things that are going to take you from A to world class. So let's dig into the things that people really think you're doing great and how can we make you play even bigger in those arenas?

[Elisa Sue Lynch]

In today's world, many companies need to build a culture of innovation which requires business leaders and managers to tap into our creativity. So you propose an interesting practice in your book. I think you referenced it earlier, which is to make time to do nothing. Can you share more about this concept and why you believe it's so important?

[Sabina Nawaz]

It is vital. It has been transformative for myself and for many people I coach. I call it blank space. And the idea is to take two hours together, back to back once a week. And in those two hours, you unplug. First of all, you don't pretend to research on the web. You don't read, you don't talk to others. You are usually not in your office or even your home office. Ideally, you're in a neutral third place and you just sit there and think. And sometimes those big lightning bolts of insights will come, or at the very least, you go back with a well rested brain. But research shows that most of our insights come when we're quote Unquote, doing nothing. Right now, this is really hard for people to do because most of us are not used to just simply sitting and not doing anything. Even though we're human beings and not human doings, we really lean towards the doing side of things. So you can take that in smaller steps. You could mind map or doodle or bring a theme to your blank space date. You know those themes, as in those big ideas that you want to get to eventually, but you never manage to because it doesn't suit itself. In the 15 minutes you have in between meeting, you bring those with you and you start thinking, and that starts to open up more of a green field for innovation. I have seen people innovate in business. I've also seen people change careers, including myself, after sitting around doing nothing, because they realize it's time to put their superpowers to use somewhere else.

[Elisa Sue Lynch]

I definitely believe in that. I'll have to try the daily or weekly practice, but definitely believe when you're moving from one career to another or leaving, say you got laid off, taking some time and not doing anything, not rushing into anything, is super important because things evolve. You open yourself up to new opportunities. You allow yourself time to really think about what's important to you. And I like that idea of blank space.

[Sabina Nawaz]

I'd love to hear from you once you've tried it.

[Elisa Sue Lynch]

Yes. So for our last question, what advice would you give to your younger self about navigating your career while staying true to yourself?

[Sabina Nawaz]

Navigating my career while staying true to myself. I would say don't believe yourself. What I mean by that is, of course you want to believe in you, but don't always believe the story you're telling yourself about yourself. And if I go back to that story of me under pressure becoming a really careless manager, it's because I believed I was doing this. I had lots of ya buts and lots of noble stories about why I was doing that. We're doing this for the senior. Most people in the company, the work has to be flawless. It's gotta be done fast. It's going to be great to push my people for their career. But that was only partially true. And if I had paused and said, wait a minute, how is this showing up on the other side? I think I would have had happier employees and better productivity, better end results.

[Elisa Sue Lynch]

Great advice. So, Sabina, I'm going to throw in another question about authenticity, because I was reading in your book your concept of authenticity and how that's a kind of a term you don't really like, or that you would, you would define differently. Can you share with the audience what authenticity means to you?

[Sabina Nawaz]

Yes, authenticity means a plural word to me. And what I mean by that is that our authenticity is not singular, nor is it static. If it was static, we would still be authentic to our five year old selves. Having an unfiltered mouth and throwing tantrums on the grocery store floor. If it is singular, then you would experience me the same way that my husband experiences me, the same way that an audience of 5,000 experiences me when I'm giving a keynote, and the same way my girlfriends might experience it. Our authenticity shifts based on the role we are in at that moment. So context and role makes a big difference in what part of us comes in, which part is true. They're all true. I think the things that are constant are our values that undergird what we call authenticity. So often when people say I want to be authentic, I think they're saying I want to be true to my values. But even with values, they clash with each other from time to time. For example, I think in the book I talk about if I have a caretaking value for my children and let's say I cannot afford some life saving intervention for them, would I steal to do that? Yep, if it was my child. And so does that mean integrity isn't a value of mine? Absolutely it is. But in our circumstances, we will have to prioritize and privilege one value over another.

[Elisa Sue Lynch]

So Sabina, how's your definition of plural? Which I really believe in that idea as well, that we have so many different stories, each of us have so much to our identities. It's not necessarily a singular identity. We have many identities.

[Sabina Nawaz]

Correct.

[Elisa Sue Lynch]

How is that different than compartmentalizing? So showing up differently in different situations.

[Sabina Nawaz]

Seymour, what do you mean by compartmentalizing? Elisa?

[Elisa Sue Lynch]

Well, it may be similar in that we take the mom hat off when we go to work and so then we show up as businesswoman Elisa. Or we go and I play pickleball and there I'm just fun Elisa. I feel like sometimes that's compartmentalizing. But at the same time, all those other identities are still in me and still part of me.

[Sabina Nawaz]

I think it is very similar. The only distinction I would make is as long as you're not then putting on something that they are all true to you. Often I hear people say, well, I'm going to work, I've got to armor up, or I've got to put on my big girl pants because of blah blah. And those are things that are put on, those are not authentic. So these are still all really true for you. It's just that the context, the compartment that you're in changes.

[Elisa Sue Lynch]

Yeah, that's super interesting. Great insight. So, Sabina, I want to congratulate you again on your new book, and I want to encourage everyone to order a copy of youf're the Boss. It's full of examples and tools to help people become the managers you want to be. Thank you so much for joining me on the podcast, and I look forward to seeing you at your book launch in Seattle soon.

[Sabina Nawaz]

Thank you so much, Elisa. This was fun.

[Elisa Sue Lynch]

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