Alisa Sue Lynch (5:28)

I love those lessons. And I wanted to follow up on a couple of things that you talked about. So one is the name that you were given or your American name that you were given. What is your original given name?

Anna Mak (5:39)

My given name in Cantonese is Waiman. It actually is associated with being learned and education, which there is some irony in that, because neither of my parents actually had a chance to get a college education. So in the bigger picture of education, one can say they were not very educated. But clearly the name they gave me indicated the value they believe in education being a pathway for one's happiness and one's future.

Alisa Sue Lynch (6:07)

Yes, an aspirational name. And it's interesting because my parents are immigrants from. Originally from China to the United States. And they were also given names to choose from or even just given names, I think, when they came in to the United States. So my father, his Chinese name is Kochi Shikoji. And so they said, well, Carl, sounds like what you're trying to say. And then my mother was Hodein, and her name ended up being Daisy. It's interesting how people were named when they came into the United States.

Anna Mak (6:42)

I'm so grateful for my parents. They unknowingly gave me a very universal name because, as you know, the name Anna is used in many countries, and it is very easy to pronounce and write. So that makes my life very easy. The only question I get once in a while, is it with two ends or one n? And is it Anna or Anna?

Alisa Sue Lynch (6:59)

The other thing I wanted to ask about is you said your parents were both working a lot while you were growing up. What type of work were they doing?

Anna Mak (7:06)

Mostly small business. Retail. Small business. My dad was the very kind of stereotypical immigrant at that time that didn't have a college education. So his first stop was a Chinese restaurant in Chinatown as the dishwasher. And eventually my dad did that, too. And eventually, you know, that made to them learning the trade and then becoming a chef and then starting his own restaurant in the suburbs of San Francisco. So I actually grew up working in that space of alcohol, restaurant, and retail. And at a very young age, and maybe like your dad or other members of your family, I really learned about interacting with people who are not like myself because the restaurant was in the suburbs while I was living in Chinatown. My weekends were filled with such a range of people in my life, and I was that Little girl, if you've ever gone to a small family owned restaurant that was at the cashier either collecting the money or in the back wrapping egg rolls and wontons and running around. And it was not that my parents were trying to use me as free labor. It was because they needed to work. And where do your children go on the weekends? If you want to be with them and you needed to work, you bring them to your business with you. That was amazing when I look back at that time in life when my dad had that restaurant outside of the city, because that life in the suburbs was very different than my daily life in urban San Francisco. And it just completely widened my life to the type of people really that existed in the world. And I would be adopted by. Adopted, so to speak, by many of our customers, right? Older suburban nights that would then take me out actually on the weekends, take me out to ice cream parlors and take me to lunch and, you know, bring me to their homes and teach me things. That was not part of my everyday life with my parents. And I'm so grateful to all of those godmothers and godfathers, so to speak, that were in my life at a very young age, that were very different in background than my parents.

Alisa Sue Lynch (9:10)

So, Anna, you've mentioned that your father, who was orphaned at a young age, has been a significant inspiration to you. Can you share more about his influence on you and your life?

Anna Mak (9:21)

Thank you for asking about my dad, Elisa. He's 92 right now. He's actually been my only parent as an adult. He lost my mom when I was in college after a four year battle with cancer. And he himself has had a lot of loss and trauma in his life. He was orphaned when he was about 7 or 8 during World War II and lost both his parents within a few days of each other. And his complete family, and he had a pretty large number of siblings, all got dispersed and he was left with, really, at that time, just contact with one older brother. He had to figure out how to survive during wartime, how to feed himself, how to just make ends meet. And the fact that he was able to do that and then eventually find his way right into this country and live a healthy, productive life is really inspirational. What my dad has taught me is that, you know, there's something about just being right, not measuring oneself by how much we have in the bank, what is our job titles, how many material goods we've accumulated. Because by all measures, he never got a formal education, he never had a chance to go to college. He didn't come from any privilege, meaning his. Even his family roots were pretty humble and he, you know, retired just as an average middle class American. Yet when I look at the life he created for himself and created for us, it's been one filled with lots of happiness. We never felt deprived at all. You know, I always got what I needed, including an amazing education and access to many things that maybe wealth can even or, you know, money can't even buy. So the biggest life lesson is just, you know, living with what you have and appreciating what you have and making sure you measure yourself by what's most important.

Alisa Sue Lynch (11:23)

What a wonderful man and how lucky of you to have his wisdom guiding you. And I'm sorry to hear about your mother. That must have been difficult for you during your college years.

Anna Mak (11:33)

It was. It's. It's been, yeah, I just had another run. And also an Ascend staff person who lost one of their parents after a long illness. And even though my mother was only in my physical Life for about 20 years, and as you know, I'm in my middle ages right now, I still think about her every day. I think about the strength she must have had to marry my dad, who that was completely against her parents wishes to move to this country and then to live this independent life and to work hard and to instill in her children a set of values and principles that have made us who we are, that have allowed us to pass those things on to our children.

Alisa Sue Lynch (12:16)

Incredible parents. And mine are as well, I think very similarly. They fled their original country, China, and had to go through so much hardship to make it to where they are today. But that was never talked about much in our household. We just felt very loved and like we always had opportunities even though we didn't grow up with very much. So it's wonderful that we've both had great parents.

Anna Mak (12:41)

We're lucky that we shared that. And I think hopefully it was your house and my house. My parents never looked at it when we were growing up as, oh, we didn't have this, we didn't have this. They really much focused on what did we have and how do we make the best of what we have. And that mindset has been so helpful. Right. So we didn't look at, oh, being envious of others, but really thinking about how are we able to be very appreciative of the gifts that life has given us, whether they're material gifts or not gifts. Right. That we've received. Absolutely.

Alisa Sue Lynch (13:15)

So I want to shift to learning more about your career. You've spent over 25 years at Deloitte holding various leadership roles. Can you share more about your leadership journey and what's motivated you to stay at the company for so long?

Anna Mak (13:30)

I feel so fortunate that I've been able to build this very long career within one organization, one company, within this partnership, this great partnership. I've had a very atypical career journey. You know, I started right out of UC Berkeley, the business school and I entered the accounting audit practice of Deloitte. I started actually working in financial services and then I shifted very quickly to retail because I really wanted to experience a different industry and touch the products. So I was working with some of the major retailers from San Francisco at the time like the Williamsonoma and the Restoration Hardwares of the world. And then I was able to have a good fortune of working with a partner when I was serving the consumer industry who was starting a new business. He wanted us to show up in the market and really extend our businesses and grow our offerings and really build deep relationships with a broader set of companies. And I was not even an equity partner at that time yet. And he pulled me into this group and through that I had a chance to go from being very deep in a particular area to having a role that allowed me to be very broad. That journey led me to work in life sciences and healthcare and work with people in a company beyond let's say the finance organization, but much more broadly what their scientists with their marketing group, with their technology group. And really shaped me in becoming a broader business thinker and really look at the interconnectivities between a lot of different industries. And I'm so grateful to Jack who was the leader of that practice that we started and we had nothing. It was just an idea that he had to build this business. And what he modeled for me was that it's okay even in the platform of a large organization like ADOI to go and be part of these new businesses that are not defined right you they may or may not be successful and just continue to learn from that. I think that experience and the fact that he asked me and I was actually was willing to take the risk at that time, it was a pretty risky. Because I was really on the cusp of, of becoming considered for the partnership. And as you know, going to a new business right on the cusp of a big promotion is always a risk. But I think what it played out for me, it set me on a completely different career trajectory. And it's led me to then having a reputation of being a person that you can go to to start new things or to transform different businesses. And when I look at my career since then, there's a pattern of that. Right. I was on the leadership team, the first leadership team, executive leadership team, when the firm merged a few of our internal businesses from local businesses and made it national. I've moved between different industry groups. I've moved beyond even the US borders and have done a significant amount of work with clients that are headquartered in Asia and Europe and moved into different spaces. Currently, I'm in the cyber practice. I do tech work. I've worked in private equity. But that's not typical, I think, for a lot of people. And I've been very comfortable about, in some ways, meandering through all that the firm has to offer and not have a clear destination at the end of that meandering, but really enjoy that journey along the way.

Alisa Sue Lynch (16:53)

I really like hearing about your journey because I want listeners to realize that you can be quite successful and develop a very fulfilling career while following what you do well or your passion or what interests you. So you're such a great example of that. And you were the first Chinese American woman promoted to partner at Deloitte and also selected as a member of Deloitte's Board Council and the CEO Advisory Partner Council. So congratulations on all of that.

Anna Mak (17:23)

Thank you.

Alisa Sue Lynch (17:24)

But can you, can you share what have you learned about how to be successful in a large, complex organization, multinational organization such as Deloitte?

Anna Mak (17:34)

I should ask you. You've done the same. When I looked at you and you. Well, we've talked about your career and how you navigated and switch industries. I think a few things. One is recognize that the organization is large and complex. And I would say, especially at places like Deloitte, it's even sometimes simple and complex at the same time because we're a private company and we have. It's a partnership. And so it's about people, I think, being able to really understand that the business is about the people. And then what is your role? To lead people, to inspire people and learn from. That's been one of the consistent tenants in my career. I've been fortunate to have people who have chosen to help me. Right. And mentor me or give me certain opportunities. And some of those people may, I'll say, look like me, but many of them actually did not look like me or had a completely different set of experiences than me. But what bonded us together was a mutual respect about wanting to work together, a mutual respect for intelligence, for what we brought to the table and a mutual goal for the company. So when you're working in a large company, I think finding who your people are that you can surround yourself with is really important. And sometimes they found you. They find you. Right. When I was talking about my career journey, if it's not obvious, I'll make it obvious. I'm not a person that was ever good about a plan for myself. Even though I've had coaches as, oh, what's your three year plan? What's your five year plan? I've not been that person. But because I'm not that person, it has allowed others to come to me with opportunities that I would have never been, ever thought that I would be qualified for or considered for. And that openness has opened up a lot of doors for me. Now, that has worked for me because that's inherent to me as a person and how I think and the personality, that model may not work for everyone else. And what I tell others is it's really not one pathway to the boardroom, it's not one pathway to the C suite and actually may not be everyone's pathway to there. You can actually have a very fulfilling career if you never get to that place, because that's actually up to you to define where that destination should be. And it's different for each of us. And I think where people get tripped up is we measure ourselves by, oh, if I'm not the CEO or if I don't have a B after my name in terms of billions of assets, I'm not good enough or I'm not successful enough. And I think that's when we then start second guessing and then don't feel great about what we contributed and what we did and what does our whole life look like?

Alisa Sue Lynch (20:27)

That's such great advice. And I know you were pointing out that my career as well has been quite diverse. Even though I was at a large company, Johnson and Johnson, for 20 years, I really had so many different opportunities within that company. And similar to you, I think I was just always very open to taking on new challenges. I wanted to continue to learn. So in a way, I would get a little bit bored if I were on, you know, one brand doing the same thing for a while. I'd be just thinking, you know, I'm ready for something new, I want to keep learning. And that's kind of guided my career. But you're so right about, clearly not everybody can get to the C suite, right? And I never had a C suite title at J and J. You know, at a large corporation like that.

Anna Mak (21:10)

It's.

Alisa Sue Lynch (21:11)

There's very, very few people who make it to the C suite, but I've still been able to get into the corporate boardroom. So we can definitely find our own pathways to our destinations, as you say.

Anna Mak (21:24)

Yeah. And I think it's letting the journey carry you a little bit of what that destination is. Right. You and I just spent the weekend with a lot of people that when you really track their career, you know whether 20, 30, 40 year career they took, took, many of them had twists and turns. They may have been with one company for 30 years, 40 years, but when you unpack it, successful people actually did different things. Right. So sometimes on paper, you worked at JJ for 20 years. Why were you there so long? But the range of experiences you had that you built is what allows you to be an amazing corporate board director right now. Right. The ability to do a broad set of things is actually what adds to the richness of how we can contribute to all the rooms that we have a privilege to be a part of.

Alisa Sue Lynch (22:13)

Yeah. So you just mentioned that we were together and we were together at this event called the Ascend Pinnacle Director Summit. And that's actually where we first met. So can you talk more about Ascend Pinnacle and Ascend, which you founded and what inspired you to found the company or the organization? Congratulations also, by the way, on its 20th anniversary this year. Incredible. So share more about your mission and how is it going.

Anna Mak (22:42)

First, we're so pleased that you are a part of our network and an active member of this robust network. We started Ascend 20 years ago with a pretty simple premise, but an ambitious premise. Many of us were already advancing in our careers. My co founder and I, we were in boardrooms, we were working with C Suite, and we felt that there wasn't enough of a supportive community for people of nn, AAHPI descent. We wouldn't see very many of us. We were trying to do our own thing. We were not a community that was supporting each other in terms of our ambitions. So we set out to create an organization that solved for that, but also that focused on both receiving and giving. And so the premise was one, the organization had to be inclusive. So it wasn't about just one Asian subgroup. It was about all the Asian subgroups and all the allies and others that really had some connectivity and commitment to the work. It was that we were a career life cycle organization. You and I were at our Board Leadership Summit, so we were the first organization to put together a cohort of board directors, corporate board directors of Public companies that were there to support each other, but also work on the next generation of building good directors. So it was a career life cycle organization. Ascend had the vision of, so that's what we call it Pinnacle, because that's usually for many people, kind of their last professional job. But we also are hoping young professionals get their first job and then everything in between. And the Career Life cycle vision was because we wanted to be an organization and a community that someone can be with for 50, 60 years of your life, all the way from your first job to the last job. But more importantly, we wanted people that are part of our network to be able to think about how they give back and how they share and the premise that it doesn't matter whether you're a CEO, whether you're just getting your first job, you actually have a voice and you actually have a role in supporting others in achieving their ambitions. So the career life cycle is super important to us. The third aspect of our Ascend mission is that we're not waiting for others to do the work for us, Meaning we as a community need to come together and support each other. And also as a community, we should be thinking about what is the definition of community. We strongly believe that if you want to be a leader, your definition of community should have multiple layers. So layers that tie to your identity, including thinking about what it means to show up in your physical community, how do you show up as a leader in your neighborhoods, what are you going to do to give back to those neighborhoods, and what do you do to make an impact? That is why when you look at our work, it's not just about professional development. It's about how do you make positive social impact and how do you make positive workplace impact. And lastly, we want it to be really a place of research. So after two decades, we are the go to organization that companies and individuals often quote and look at of what's happening to Asians in the workplace and also workplaces. And as you know, we've launched studies on corporate boards. We've. We're about to release a study, the first of its kind of 40 companies and what they are doing relative to best practices and also how the Asian workforce shows up at those companies.

Alisa Sue Lynch (26:20)

Yeah, you've put together a lot of really informative research that I've referenced around Asians in the workforce, some of the unique challenges we may face in getting to the executive level. So definitely people should check that out. I wanted to just ask you though, Anna, what are some challenges that maybe Asians may face in the workplace or even just if you want to take it in this direction, like that you personally have faced as you have developed in your career.

Anna Mak (26:49)

We talk about these quite often, right? Anytime you get communities together, I think there's broader challenges. One is that we may all be alike, right? Whether it's because you've watched Crazy Rich Asians and we all have privilege and we all have a lot of wealth and we all have a lot of access, as you've heard from my story, and I'm not alone in that story, Lots of people in our community come from very different backgrounds and have very different needs. So that maybe that we're very much a monolith. There's definitely the stereotype. And sometimes that stereotype is helpful, but sometimes quite harmful, that we're the model minority, right? We don't need any help. We are the smartest people. You know, we're good at math, all of that, which again, on the surface, maybe that's not a bad thing. But that puts us in these little boxes of society expectation. So if you want to be a dancer, you want to be an artist, or you want to have maybe even non traditional work like I have, people don't know what to do with you. And so those are some of the things, right. I think you and I have talked about. Our community has one of the biggest wealth gaps, right? Yes. We have very successful people. We actually have a lot of people in the community that are barely getting by, that don't have access to education, that don't have access to good family structures. And sometimes those things get often ignored. And then the lastly, because we're very much an immigrant community, because of perhaps the historical views of Asia, US geopolitical dynamics completely impact our community and how people perceive us, right? One day we're everyone's best friends and we're great, the next day, suddenly we're spies, we're causing viruses, we're not to be trusted and they should be deported. And so when you think about all that I said, some of those misperceptions of our community or a narrow view of our community then has to go into the workplace, right? It's not that people intentionally have those views, but we're all humans. We all are shaped by what we see in the media, what our lived experiences tell us. So in the workplace, the stereotypes are difficult. Quite often we're expected to show up and express and communicate like everyone else. But many of us come from backgrounds where that's not the norm. So how do we bridge and close those Gaps, Right. Of how we show up and how we speak, Are we the loudest person in the room? And are we just valued because we work the hardest? And the moment we choose not to work double what someone else does, are we no longer valued? So a lot of that goes into the workplaces that we all are a part of. And combating some of those stereotypes, really having active conversations with companies about what does good leadership look like, and sharing research and study to say, just because a person doesn't look and behave like this, that doesn't mean they're not as good of a leader. It just means they're a different kind of leader. And actually, companies have a tremendous opportunity of harnessing the power of that. And I think we're still on that journey, right, as a society of how do we harness the power of some of these unique aspects of all different communities and bring them into the workplace so we can all be fully productive?

Alisa Sue Lynch (30:26)

Absolutely, yes. So, Anna, earlier you mentioned the importance of giving back, and you serve on a number of nonprofit boards. What drew you to your interest in investing in communities and doing all of your nonprofit work?

Anna Mak (30:43)

I mentioned I didn't have my mom in my physical life for very long, but I did have her long enough in my life to have her model for me what a good citizen looks like. She was not of the capacity to write big checks. Right. And be a big philanthropist. But in whatever time she had, she was always thinking about how she helped others around our community, whether it was just sharing food with the local food bank. Right. Us trying to do some things. Whatever little time she had, she tried to help others. That just instilled a sense that for us to be good citizens and good humans, it was really beyond ourself. But we do as much as we can in whatever way that we can, whether it's by time, by talent, by money. And so I feel fortunate that she instilled that in me. So I've always had a piece of that throughout my life. It's interesting. Years ago, I mentioned I'm a person that doesn't have a big master plan. And I realize even in my nonprofit work, it hasn't been part of a big master plan. But about two decades ago, I started working with the executive coach, and he was looking at my bio. He's trying to make sense of it. And he asked me why I served on certain nonprofits. And that conversation actually led me to believe that I have actually an affinity and attraction on a few things. One, this concept of educational access and attainment is very Important because that is such a good pathway. It's not the only way, but that actually helps close the gap. Two, economic access is very important. You know, I served on the United Way here. NPRT was their chair when we presided over merging a couple of United Ways together to do bigger work. And I believe and continue to believe in the mission of organizations like United Way because it really hones in on things like what does it mean to be working poor? Meaning you're fully working, but you're not even at the average of what it needs to take to live in an expensive place like San Francisco. What does it mean to have food insecurity when you actually are going to college? And as you know, many college campuses have students who actually have food insecurity, even if they got a scholarship right to go to school. So economic access, educational access, access to good information and unbiased information. When you look at the organizations I've been involved in, I believe are so critical in building a civil society, which we all want. And so the organizations I support tend to have a leaning towards those. And if you think about even our ascend work, right, it's focused on economic and educational access, not only for our members, but how our members can go and create that for the community at times of need.

Alisa Sue Lynch (33:41)

So, Anna, you have been a working mom, and I know it's not always easy. Have you faced any major challenges during your career that you've had to wrestle with?

Anna Mak (33:52)

Oh, gosh, there's been so many. I've been fortunate enough to have one child. Sometimes I wish I had more, but biology did not allow for that to happen. And when she was growing up, I always questioned on how good a mom I was or not. I had a very demanding career, and I still do. And it took me a while to really figure out that it wasn't about the quantity of the time one puts into anything, into your work, into your family, but it is about the quality of those time and interactions. So one of the challenges always is how do you deal with all of those constraints on your time? And also, as you know, I have elderly dad now, so he's been elderly for most of my adult life, working life, and he has a lot of needs, too. So being able to be okay, that not everything's perfect at all the time is something that I had to really work on. But I also believe that you can be everything. And maybe that's because I'm an idealist at heart. My daughter, when she was going to preschool, she. They asked her a question. She said, oh, my mom's the everything mom. And I don't think it's because she was saying I was the perfect mom, but I think she was saying I was a mom who can help figure it out and help solve for whatever is the issue. So as it relates to then, how does that impact then one's career is, you know, in our personal lives, we have all these things going on and then you still have to show up in, whether a physical office or virtual office and sometimes feel like all those things are. They don't exist, right? You show up, you put on your suit or your, your dress, and you have to show up in a particular way. And earlier in my career, actually, I was accused of not being empathetic enough because I had my mask on. And so people didn't know how to connect with me. And it wasn't till later in my career that I learned it was okay to be vulnerable. It was okay to talk about the fact that I had miscarriages, many of them. It was okay to talk about the fact that I was going through a really, really difficult divorce. It was okay to talk about the fact that I had to do all these things to make my life work. And lastly, it was okay to ask for help from others. I think society's a little bit better about that. I think workplaces are a bit more understanding about that. But definitely when I was shaping my career and when I was growing up and working, you know, working through different management roles, it never, it didn't always feel that way because there was almost this pressure to shape this perfect life. And we all know we don't have perfect lives, right? Nor do I want a perfect life. I want a real life that comes with lots of trials and tribulations and ups and downs. Because all those things allow me to have a lot of grit. It allows me to be a better thinker, and it allows me to have a lot of empathy for others who are different than me.

Alisa Sue Lynch (36:55)

So interesting because I had gotten the same feedback during my career of being all business and not connecting with the team. So I wonder if there is something in an Asian trait that leads us to show up a little bit that way or tend to show up that way at work.

Anna Mak (37:09)

I actually think it is. We talk about that a lot with our Ascend community. And I think as a combination of being an immigrant with a first, second, largely a, you know, first or second generation immigrant community where you're always outside coming in, right? So we're always trying to fit in, or there's pressure to Fit in. And because of that, you don't always feel. Or we're not. Maybe even if you feel it, we're not always as skilled of how we bring all of that authenticity to the table because it's not always modeled. Right. Because there's so many different ways people have been successful.

Alisa Sue Lynch (37:44)

So, Anna, you referenced going through a difficult divorce during your career. Would you be willing to share a little bit more about that story and how you were able to manage both career and personal challenges all at the same time?

Anna Mak (37:59)

The divorce was very difficult for me. It came at a time when my daughter was in middle school. It was a very contentious relationship leading up to that and continued that way for many years because we actually litigated in public court. And so for any of your viewers that have gone through any form of litigation, talk about trauma and then trying to be a good mom while co parenting again behind the scenes, trying to manage my career. And it came at a time when one would say there's kind of peaks, right? And when people track in their careers, I kind of look back on those years and I don't even know how I survived it. I was literally that swan that underneath was just paddling like crazy. And no one saw that, right. That vulnerability I was fortunate enough to be surrounded by and still surrounded by my dad, who supported me in so many ways in terms of just being a rock for me, and then by amazing best friends and family members who really just made me feel loved and knew I could get past that really dark period in my life. And also what grounded me was really that continued anchoring on my daughter of knowing that by leaving that relationship, both her dad and I could be in happier places. And if we were happier, she would be a happier and a well be more well adjusted. And she's 24 now, and forgive me for mama pride, but I think she's pretty well adjusted. She's pretty productive as a human, and we have a really amazing relationship in spite of some of the trauma that she probably experienced. Right. By going through all of that in many of her formative years. And on the personal love front, I guess it's a journey. It's not easy to date. It's not easy to find the right partner. But I also believe in that, you know, life brings us to friends and partners and love interests at the right times based on what we need at that point in time. And so I feel fortunate to be surrounded by the right people. That feeds my soul right now.

Alisa Sue Lynch (40:12)

So, last question. What advice would you give to your younger self or do you give to others about navigating your career while staying true to yourself?

Anna Mak (40:21)

I think about this and I get asked versions of this question quite often. I was recently in a book of leaders and I had a chance to share five wisdoms. So share those five wisdoms and you can see how that came to be. First, I would encourage everyone, including my younger self, to be very generous with your capital. And I use that word capital not in the terms of money, but everything. Whatever your gifts are, is your are your capitals. So be very generous of it. Don't be stingy about it. Second is really create your own success compass. I know we all, any of your viewers and listeners are probably thinking about leadership, but leadership is a very bespoke, customized journey and where that compass is and the direction of that is going to be different for every person and actually changes over time depending on what our needs are at any point in time. Third is allow yourself to wander. It's a journey. Our professional lives are long, right? Decades long. And sometimes if we are so focused on just that destination, we lose sight of the chance to explore, look at the trees and really enjoy the moments. I've been known to set a super high bar and I know you have been too. But set a high bar, but make sure you're doing your work to bring people along right? Meaning develop others so that they can really set a bar for themselves and others around them. But also recognize that my bar is not someone else's bar and be really appreciative that everyone is different as a leader and what they have as a value set and what success looks like with them. And then lastly, and this is one of the principles I try to live life with is really it's an an an embrace and adopt this and and mindset is not an either or and that includes an implicit in that if it's an and and then when you interact with people, really think about people's positive intent even in those moments of conflict, don't assume someone is just trying to take something from you or is at war with you. Really show up in an Ann mindset and show up with a lot of empathy. The two of us sometimes have a hard time and people don't really understand that we're empathetic people or not. I think it's important inside to be very empathetic and to show up and lead with a degree of empathy and think about win win and not winners and losers and either or mentality.

Alisa Sue Lynch (43:04)

We are on the same wavelength Anna, because I agree 100% with your five pieces of advice. Just excellent. So Anna, it's been so wonderful to learn about your journey, the incredible impact you're having on so many people and communities, and just to learn about your Leadership dance. So thank you so much for joining the podcast.

Anna Mak (43:25)

Thank you. And again, congratulations on your great success. You are amazing member and amazing part of our community.

Alisa Sue Lynch (43:32)

Like Follow and Share the Leadership Dance where we explore how to choreograph the career of your dreams and chat with visionary leaders who are breaking barriers in the arts and business worlds. Until next time, keep dancing.