The Leadership Dance

Ep. 27: Finding Your Leadership Rhythm, with Margaret Andrews
Host: Alissa Hsu Lynch
Guest: Margaret Andrews, author, educator, and leadership expert
Date: October 13, 2025

Overview

In this episode, host Alissa Hsu Lynch sits down with Margaret Andrews, a seasoned leadership instructor at Harvard and former executive director at MIT Sloan. The conversation centers around how leaders can find their unique "leadership rhythm"—drawing parallels between life’s career twists, the art of leadership, overcoming setbacks, and the value of improvisation. Margaret shares practical insights from her career, the essence of great management, dealing with toxic bosses, and the journey to writing her new book, Manage Yourself to Lead Others.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Early Influences and Career Evolution

• Margaret’s childhood ambitions:

  • Initially wanted to be a doctor—an aspiration influenced by her parents but not grounded in their professions.

    “When I was younger, the only thing that I can really remember wanting to be ... was wanting to be a doctor. And I think the idea came from my parents...” (01:41 – 02:07)

• A winding career path:

  • Started as a CPA in San Francisco at Deloitte, moved to MIT Sloan for business school, took up strategy consulting, then transitioned into a marketing executive before her pivot to higher education leadership.
  • Found her calling at MIT Sloan through a mix of “lucky accidents” and proactive networking.

    “I have one foot in academia and one foot in the business world, which I think gives me a really interesting vantage point.” (03:26 – 03:43)

The ‘Lucky Accident’ that Changed Everything

• In what Margaret called a "lucky accident," she volunteered on an MIT curriculum redesign, networking led her to an executive director role at MIT Sloan.
• The importance of seizing unexpected opportunities:

  “Had I never done that volunteering with them, I wouldn’t have been there. And if I hadn’t left my card ... and if he hadn’t called me back … all of these, like, little things that went together...” (05:24 – 06:02)

Developing Harvard’s Renowned Leadership Program

• After MIT, consulting and three separate referrals led her to Harvard, where she built and refined the “Managing Yourself and Leading Others” program.

  “I always said I had to eat my own cooking... As a consultant, you oftentimes say, ‘Oh you should do this and that’, but when it’s you, you have to do it yourself.” (07:07 – 07:25)

From Course to Book: Manage Yourself to Lead Others

• Motivation: The inner compulsion to translate her signature class to a wider audience via a book, despite the unexpected difficulties of writing.

  “A lot of people have ... a book, a class, a piece of art, whatever it is inside them and it has to come out ... like the movie Alien, when the alien bursts from this person's chest...” (08:19 – 08:37)
  “Writing a book and teaching a class were two totally different things… it wasn’t easy at all.” (09:33 – 09:39)

What Distinguishes a Great Leader

• Main finding from 20 years of training leaders:
  • 85% of what makes a boss “great” is about interpersonal relationship skills, not technical ability.

    “IQ and technical and functional skills are also important ... but that's not what makes you a great boss.” (10:04 – 10:43) “The hallmark of a great leader, is if somebody would go back and do it again.” (10:54 – 11:06)

Dealing with Toxic Bosses

• Self-examination is the first step:

  “Any relationship involves two people ... Or you could think of it a little bit like a dance. One person moves forward, the other person moves back.” (11:35 – 11:52)

• When to stay and when to go:

  • Leave if it harms your wellbeing—but if you’re learning and growing, some level of discomfort can be productive.
  • If you can’t change the boss, focus on what you can control: learn, network, look for internal moves.

  “You can’t change anyone. It’s hard enough to change ourselves ... But you sure can’t change somebody else.” (12:33 – 13:01)
  “Look around the organization and grasp onto anyone or anything that you can learn from ... network like crazy like your life depended on it. Because it might.” (14:55 – 15:23)

• Alissa’s own experience: After a meaningful overseas assignment, she found herself underappreciated and a victim of a toxic higher-up, leading to her difficult decision to leave.

  “I found myself complaining to other coworkers around the water cooler. And I’m like, I don’t like myself right now. So I think something needs to change.” (15:31 – 15:46)

Resilience and Aggressive Self-Rescue

• Margaret shares the concept of “aggressive self-rescue” from her family’s whitewater rafting trips:

  “In that moment, just remember that you care about your safety more than anyone else and you should act according ... I just loved that term because I thought that's exactly what it is...” (17:16 – 17:48)

• Strategies for career setbacks:

  • Objectively process what happened.
  • Differentiate what you can/can’t control—focus only on the former.
  • Use writing exercises to externalize emotion (“what paper shredders are for”).
  • Reach out to your support system.
  • Extract learning from every setback.

  “I’m a big believer that something is not a failure if you actually learn something from it.” (20:32 – 20:42) “A good day is when I take a shower. And I thought, that's good because that's under your control, right. So it's something that you can do for yourself.” (19:37 – 19:48)

The Crucial Role of Self-Understanding

• Most best bosses are highly self-aware; self-understanding is directly linked to leadership effectiveness.

  “We judge ourselves by our intentions. ... But other people judge us by our behaviors.” (25:14 – 25:37) “Most people that are not such great bosses don’t intend to be that way...they were learning to lead on me and other people.” (25:51 – 26:04)

• On developing self-awareness in others: Honest feedback and 360-degree reviews as wake-up calls.

  “If you’re not aware of something, you can’t do anything about it.” (27:12 – 27:15)

• Alissa’s experience: Learning through feedback to bring more of her authentic self to work improved her leadership.

  “At first, you know, it’s a little difficult to hear or even to understand. But then as you internalize it... that encouraged me to change and to start talking more about my family life and... bringing more of myself into work.” (27:23 – 27:55)

Choreographing Your Career: Embracing Improvisation

• Growth and career paths are rarely linear—explore, experiment, and “kiss a lot of frogs.”

  “You don't know what you’re passionate about until you try it...one of the purposes of dating is to find out what you don’t want in a partner… and to me, jobs are like that too.” (28:41 – 29:20) “If you're curious about it, try it ... Anything that sparks your interest, investigate it.” (29:30 – 29:59)

• Transferable skills become clearer through exploration and informational interviews.

Fostering Creativity and Navigating Failure

• Early experience convinced Margaret she “wasn’t creative” due to equating artistic talent and creativity.

  “I made a paper mache puppet that was going to be a princess. And mine was chosen to be the wicked old witch because that's what it looked like.” (31:22 – 31:44)

• Creativity exists in many forms—problem-solving, science, experimentation.

  • Encourages creating environments where mistakes and vulnerability are acceptable.

  “What goes on stage at the end is not where it started ... You just have to try things ... part of it does [work] ... and when you have that sort of creative community... it’s so freeing to work in an environment like that.” (33:03 – 34:19) “I always say, you’re kind of emotionally naked together ... It’s scary at first, but it is so freeing as you go through the process and what you end up with is a hundred times better than you would have thought.” (34:26 – 34:38)

Margaret’s Advice to Her Younger Self

• Loosen your grip—Don’t take yourself or your career so seriously, and try to hold both more loosely with perspective.

  “Don’t take your work or yourself too seriously. Hold it loosely, you know ... I think that when we hold it too tightly, it just stresses us out ... just have a little bit more distance from it.” (34:59 – 35:44) “But as I say, I doubt she would take it.” (35:46 – 35:50)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On discovering your leadership path:

  “I have one foot in academia and one foot in the business world, which I think gives me a really interesting vantage point.” (03:43)

• On the centrality of interpersonal skills:

  “About 85% ... are in the interpersonal skills, the relationship skills area. Technical and functional skills ... that’s not what makes you a great boss.” (10:13 – 10:39)

• On leaving a toxic work environment:

  “Look around the organization and grasp onto anyone or anything that you can learn from, right. And network like crazy like your life depended on it. Because it might.” (15:04 – 15:23)

• On self-understanding vs. external perception:

  “We judge ourselves by our intentions. ... But other people judge us by our behaviors.” (25:14 – 25:37)

• On embracing career improvisation:

  “In your career you kind of have to kiss a lot of frogs. ... I think one of the purposes of dating is to find out what you don’t want in a partner ... and to me, jobs are like that too.” (29:00 – 29:20)

• On holding your career loosely:

  “Don’t take your work or yourself too seriously. Hold it loosely, you know ... just have a little bit more distance from it, I guess.” (35:05 – 35:44)

Timestamps for Essential Segments

• Margaret’s Career Evolution & ‘Lucky Accident’: 02:12 – 06:02
• Creating and Teaching Harvard’s Top Leadership Course: 07:02 – 08:14
• The Shift from Course to Book & Motivation: 08:19 – 09:39
• What Makes a Great Boss?: 09:47 – 11:18
• Dealing with Toxic Bosses: 11:22 – 15:31
• Resilience, Aggressive Self-Rescue & Recovering from Setbacks: 17:16 – 21:54
• The Value of Self-Awareness for Leaders: 23:12 – 27:15
• Choreographing Your Career—Embracing Change and Improvisation: 28:12 – 30:17
• On Creativity, Vulnerability, and Innovation: 31:13 – 34:52
• Advice to Her Younger Self: 34:59 – 35:50

Conclusion

Margaret Andrews stresses that successful leadership is built on self-awareness, resilience, strong relationships, and a willingness to experiment and grow. Her journey, marked by seizing unexpected opportunities and a passion for lifelong learning, exemplifies the evolving and improvisational nature of careers today.

Recommended Action: Check out Margaret’s new book, Manage Yourself to Lead Others, for more practical strategies and stories.