B (2:56)

So you mentioned moving to New York after college and getting your first job. I love this story about how you got your job at Saturday Night Live. Can you tell us that story and what did you learn from that experience?

A (3:09)

Well, it's twofold. So I moved to New York without a job, and five weeks later, I was working at Saturday Night Live, which is insane and silly and makes no sense. It was only until recently that I, like, kind of pieced it back together. Which was. I had an internship when I was a junior in college in a film publicity studio in New York City. You know, it was your typical internship. I did a lot of faxes. I cut out a lot of newspaper clippings. I didn't do that much. It wasn't like I blew my bosses away. But my senior year, I went back to college and I remembered my boss's birthday. I had no money, so I couldn't, like, send her, like, some cool present in New York City. So I made her chocolate chip cookies. I mailed them to her. God knows they couldn't have been good when the time they got there. But she was so impressed by the fact that I remembered her birthday and that I did it. That when I moved to New York, she was the first person I reached out to. And she's, in fact, the person who got me the lead at snl. And she was like, here, they're gonna. They're gonna interview you. And then again, five weeks later, I was there. So I always, especially when I'm talking to young people, I talk about how, like, I made a batch of chocolate chip cookies. And I'm pretty sure that changed the trajectory of my career.

B (4:18)

What was your major in college?

A (4:21)

I was a journalism major. So I come from very practical, practical mother. And I could have studied film and television, but the journalism school at UNC where I went to school, it was so good. And I remember just thinking, like, oh, well, I'm going To leave with a real skill set if I go to the J school. And so I did it and it was a great, it was a great place to learn.

B (4:42)

And what was that interview like for SNL for the very first job?

A (4:47)

Very much not like how anybody else's interviews went. Like, so it was so normal and like I was just talking to somebody that I remember leaving being like, was that an interview? I. The first interview I had somebody was like eating a pita sandwich and it was like, you know, my, like a big interview for 22 year old Lindsey shook us. And I remember just thinking like, is that normal? Do people normally like eat their lunch while they're interviewing people? And my second interview with the woman who ended up becoming my boss, she just like asked me about UNC and what it was like to go to school in the south. And we never got into like what I knew or, or my skill set. And I just, I was so young that I didn't really understand how much my personality blending with SNL was going to be probably the biggest part. Like, you know, yes, I had to work hard and yes, I had to be smart. But like, it's not necessarily like everyone who's smart doesn't necessarily work at snl. And so she was just kind of trying to figure out like, will we like each other? Because it's like Lorne Michaels always used to say, like, who do you want to see walking down the hallway at three in the morning? And if you don't want to see them, that's probably not a good fit. And so she was really just trying to get to know, get to know who I was as a, as a person. I remember talking about kite surfing on my first interview and be like, this is not, this can't be what it's like.

B (6:03)

So what was the first job? And tell me a little bit more about how you worked your way up at snl.

A (6:09)

I was an assistant to the head of the talent department and producer, the job that I eventually took over. So I was an assistant. I was 22. My first day of work, I met Matt Damon. I mean, it was my first day of work after college. And I just remember thinking like, this is, I can't believe I'm going to get paid for this. You know, it was like a typical assistant thing. You know, all the assistant things that most people do. Calendars and phones and organization. But then there was this other section which was like my boss really quickly started to trust me. So she would like be like, hey, why don't you go downstairs and pick up Robert De Niro. And I'd be like, okay. So then I would go down to the street and I'd pick up Robert De Niro and I'd bring him upstairs and. And, like, slowly she started giving me more and more like, hey, why don't you go on this film shoot with, you know, John McCain? You know John McCain, why don't you go on this film shoot? And I was like, okay. Or I remember my. My second week at snl, it was a Friday night. And again, in the talent department at snl, your job is to really know music, tv, films. Like, the department was always going to see stuff. And the second week, my boss came up to me. It was a Friday night, and we worked really late on Friday nights. And she said, hey, we're leaving. Get your stuff. And I was like, you know, that's my boss. I was like, okay, sure, let's go. And I'm like, where are we going? She's like, we're going to MSG to see Cher. Wow. I was like, all right, this is a pretty fun job. I'm going to see Cher on my second week. So, you know, all that to say it was. It was a lot of chaos. It was a lot of putting out fires. It was, you know, very quickly seeing what it was like to be around really notable people in high pressure situations. And then just, you know, I would. I remember thinking, like, just be the first one in, be the last one out. Like, don't complain when someone doesn't want to do something. Say, you'll do it. And so I always say, like, I was like a job collector. I was, you know, oh, you don't want to do that? I'm happy to do it. No problem. I'll go, don't worry. You know, and. And so I think pretty soon, pretty quickly, at the job, at the job, I. I was known for being, at the very least, reliable.

B (8:10)

Were you ever intimidated or starstruck by the celebrities that you met?

A (8:15)

Of course. Like, you know, again, I'm from Buffalo, New York. It's not like I really met celebrities before I started the job. In fact, I do remember, I always joke about this. My boss asking me when I interviewed at snl, she's like, hey, have you ever worked with talent? And I want you to remember that the people she was interviewing were all, like, interns who had gone to NYU and Columbia and had all these big internships in New York City. And she's like, have you worked with talent? And in my head, I remember thinking, Well, I once handed a coffee to Jackie Chan. So, yes, yes, I have. Like, I was like, that was my experience. And I didn't. I didn't elaborate. I was just like, mm, I have. Yes, absolutely. But, like, I really hadn't. You know, in Buffalo, it was like the anchor. Local news anchors were like our big notable people. So of course I got. I got starstruck. I was pretty good at being able to, like, fake it, you know, and. And just act. Act normal. And I think pretty quickly I started to realize how much a lot of these people are treated like they're put on a pedestal. They're treated like they're not human. And so the best way to be in with them was to treat them like they were human and not treat them like they were, you know, godlike figures that sometimes we do in the media just talk to them like, like regular people. And so that's what I started doing pretty early on. But of course I remember. I mean, I remember there were some moments, especially like, my first or second year. I remember, you know, Justin Timberlake, you know, right when he was like, taking off as, like, a solo pop star. Like, I was 22 or 23 years old. I was just like. Like, he was so, you know, like, I was just like, oh, he was so cute. And like, so. Yeah, of course.

B (9:56)

So it sounds like you were a sponge on the job and just really learned on your way up. But earlier you talked about building trust with your boss. As a producer on snl, you've worked with some of the biggest names in entertainment, so you mentioned a couple of them, but Eddie Murphy, Drake, the Rock, Kristen Wiig. What do you think are the most important ingredients for earning trust with people that you're just meeting really quickly and keeping it over time?

A (10:23)

Well, I talk about this a lot. So in my, in my, My next chapter, you know, I do a lot of public speaking and I talk a lot about building trust. It's my favorite thing to do, I think, asking great questions. Like, I think I've become a really great question asker and going places and. And by the way, it's not like I'm like immediately like, hi, how are you? What's your relationship like with your father? You know, I have a. Although my. My fiance might say I do, I do get there pretty quickly, but, you know, kind of asking things in a way that's like, you know, a stepping ground to get. To get someplace more real. So I ask good questions that are not your typical, like, how are you? How did you like working on this movie, like, I ask better questions, I listen. I'm a. I've become a much better listener, you know, like, really. And listening with like all of me, you know, I always say to, like, especially young people, like, I use my eyes to see what's happening. I read the room. I'm really like, what is body language telling me? What are the people around? Where are they looking? Really get a sense of what this person is, like, what their needs are. I think if you really become a great listener, you are so much more attuned to needs. And so that really helps. Cause then you start to really be like, what does this person really want? Right? Not just what they say, because a lot of times someone will be like, no, I'm fine. No, I'm totally fine. And you're like, we know you're not fine. Right? And so how do you get to. Why are you not fine? And what can I do to help? You know, I say like, you know, credibility is a huge one. So really I do what I say and I say what I do. Like, you know, like being really clear and not letting people down in that way, I think is another one. And then I think the ultimate way for building trust is to. My favorite quote is the fastest way to build trust is to treat somebody else like they're trustworthy. It's a Paul Zach quote. And so the more you can give somebody your trust and you can be vulnerable and you can let your wall down, the faster they're going to give it back to you. I find, I've always found that.

B (12:15)

What's an example of maybe an early question that you might ask if I.

A (12:21)

Like, haven't seen you in a while, you know, instead of being like, how, how are you? I'll say something like, hey, what's been the biggest highlight since the last time I saw you? And that just right there, it means like, you have to give me something. It might be good, it might be hard, but you're gonna, you can't just say, I'm good. You know, like, how do you get someplace more than beyond the, like the surface level? So that question's great because it gets me someplace deeper. And again, you have to really listen to the answer. So when you tell me something back, you're going to tell me something that I'm immediately going to have three great follow up questions because I'm going to really listen to what you're saying and not just things of like, oh, where are you from? You know, what do you do? I'm going to like get someplace meatier. And oftentimes people are sometimes a little surprised by questions they haven't heard before, but they typically roll with it and then you get someplace cooler within the next, you know, 20, 30 minutes.

B (13:15)

So after 20 years at SNL, you've shifted from producing live television to now advising leaders and teams. You've described coaching as a calling and said that your gift is helping people be great. What does making people great look like in your work today?

A (13:32)

Well, it's bumpy and it's, it's requires a lot of hard conversations and it also requires a partner, like a person that is open to, to being coached. I mean, I'd say the biggest part of making someone better is having that person want to get better. Right? Like, it doesn't, it's like therapy. If you go to therapy and you don't really listen, you don't really try to be different, then you can go to therapy, but it's not going to change you. And it's the same exact thing for coaching. Right. And, and working with executives. If you have somebody who really wants to get better and really is open to having hard conversations, it makes, it makes my job first of all very, not easy, but much more feasible. Right. But I think the thing is, it's like ultimately like what, where did they want to go? Really understanding where does someone who does someone want to be and taking a real assessment of like, where do they think they are? And then we kind of just like, I mean, listen, I think it's a little bit like business therapy. Like I go into like all the things that make you who you are. And it's really interesting to me to like find out like for sure, 100%, each and every one of us have stuff from our childhood that affect the way we are as leaders. There is no doubt about it. And so once you kind of understand some of those things more, it helps you be like, okay, how could I change them? If, if I need to change them, how can I do it? If we don't have awareness, we can't do it.

B (14:55)

How did working at SNL help prepare you for coaching?

A (14:59)

Well, I think the way I look at it is like I had, you know, someone of note come in on a Monday and I bas had six days to get to know them, figure out what they were great at, what they maybe needed help with, what they were excited about and what their needs were, and then help them over that six day course, like a six day process, get to that spot where they felt confident and comfortable and excited. And could show off their skills, right? So now I just have more time. And it might not be people that everybody knows, but it's the same kind of concept, right? It's like, early on, just getting to know them, really identifying their strengths and weaknesses, and then figuring out ways to really highlight those strengths, make those strengths superpowers, and then make those things that they. Those kind of, like, Achilles heels, figure out how we can heal some of them and make them things that are more of a superpower.

B (15:50)

That makes perfect sense when you say it that way. You're born to do this.

A (15:54)

Now, you know, I get that question, but people, like, often are like, I don't get it. Like, why? And it's. It is really like. I mean, it's also, like, what I've just done in my life with my friends and my family. Like, I. This is the role I play in my life a lot, which is, like, not only helping someone figure out how to get through something hard or get better, but also making them believe they can do it. Right? Because it's one thing to be like, oh, yeah, you're gonna get through this, but it's another thing to. To really feel confident that you have the tools to get through something. And that's my favorite part. Like, building somebody up and helping them see all the magic inside them. I mean, it's the coolest. It doesn't matter if it's Emma Stone or if it's my clients that I work with. It's. It's the same idea. And luckily, I just find so much joy in it. It's. It's the coolest.

B (16:42)

So you're now working with hedge fund managers? I think executives and hedge funds and leaders everywhere.

A (16:49)

I want to. I want to point out that if you had told me that five years ago, I would have. I would have had a big pause. I would have been like, there's no possible way. My. My best friend and I always laugh because she's. Her whole career has been in finance, and she's like, hey, if I had told you five years ago that one of us would be working at a hedge fund, do you think we would have picked you?

B (17:07)

That's pretty incredible. So leaders at hedge funds and elsewhere, we are under an immense amount of pressure, which is something that you know how to deal with. How did you develop the ability to stay centered in chaos? And how do you teach other people to do the same?

A (17:24)

Well, I think it's definitely something that took me some time and perspective, right? Like, really being able to step back and Be like, oh, yeah, I have gotten through hard things. There are things that were really chaotic and crazy and I crashed and burned. I'm a very honest. There were some things back at SNL that like, you know, when I look back on it, I was like, oh, man, I wish I had handled that differently or so like I always say, like, you have to. My biggest learning was when things are crazy and, and you're feeling all the pressure. Take a. Like I learned the pause is probably one of the most important parts of a solution. If you run head on towards something in the middle of a, of a crisis or chaos, you're. You're going to hit the wall. And in. Not in, not in a way, not in any kind of good way. Not that I guess hitting a wall ever is. I think this is why trust is so important. You build trust so that you can, you can say hard things. Like, you can't say hard things before you feel trust. And so when you get to that spot where someone is spiraling, it's a little bit like you can shake them and be like, hey, we're gonna get through this, but let's pull it. Let's pull it together, you know, for. So I think trust for me with my clients are, is probably one of the most important things because then it allows me to say the really difficult stuff and the hard times and how did I really say? Centered. I mean, I have to just tell you, age and experience has been the greatest gift for me. Right. Like, I've gotten through hard things, all the post traumatic growth from getting through hard things. Right. That's a. There's real data around the confidence that gives you. Once you've done it, once you've done something hard, you're like, oh yeah, I can do it. And also the perspective of like, a lot of the things we think are huge aren't, you know, in the grand scheme of life. And so really I always say, like, stepping back and trying to give myself some perspective. Like, you know, when Kanye west was on SNL and all the chaos was happening and things were, it's like, this isn't the end of the world. Like, this is Kanye west on snl. Life is going to go forward. I always just say, Sunday will come. Sunday always came. But, you know, when you're in it, you think it's like the most important thing you've ever done. And I've just learned to be better about being like, let's just put this in perspective. It's, you know, it's gonna be okay. And Also the hardest things in my life and the biggest challenges and the. And the worst failures I've ever had have ended up making me so much better and put me in the position I am in today. And I'm really proud of that person. And I wouldn't be here today without all that junk that I went through.

B (19:54)

Yeah, absolutely. I think we learned so much from failure and recovering from that failure and which I think I like to think of it, it teaches us to move differently, to, you know, break out of where we were.

A (20:06)

Last week. I was giving a talk, and we. I talked about this idea of, like, if you think about all the leaders that. That we know, that you respect, that we read about, that we want to emulate, all those things that we. That we read about in the program. Right. They're all forged in friction, and, like, they're not. We don't read about them because it was easy and it was simple and they were just really good. We read about them because they went through hard faith. And, like, when you really put that in perspective, you're like, oh, it's, you know, it's the whole, like, it's pressure as a privilege, but it really is true. The leaders you, we all know about have not had simple paths, and it's not up into the right. And so when you. Again, when you step back and you think about that, you're like, oh, yeah, I'm just in this situation because I'm in a place where I have to deal with hard things. Leadership, real leadership, is dealing with the hard stuff, not just the good stuff.

B (20:55)

Yes, I love that. So, Lindsay, I want to take a quick break and do a rapid fire round of questions. I didn't prepare you for this, so just respond with whatever comes to mind.

A (21:05)

I love a rapid fire. All right, I'm going to. I'm going to really try and be fast. Okay, Got it. Ready to go.

B (21:11)

So who's one of the favorite guests you worked with on snl?

A (21:14)

Dwayne the Rock Johnson.

B (21:16)

Okay, tell me a little bit. Why?

A (21:18)

He's just. I didn't expect him to be so sweet and kind and generous of spirit, and he was great with my daughter. So. So, I mean, five stars.

B (21:29)

What's one word your friends would use to describe you?

A (21:34)

Compassion.

B (21:36)

Okay. What's a ritual you can't live without?

A (21:40)

Snuggling with my daughter. Like, we just have. We just are snugglers. Snuggle snuggles with my daughter.

B (21:46)

Oh, what's your leadership superpower?

A (21:49)

I see the potential in everybody.

B (21:52)

Favorite song to dance to.

A (21:54)

We found love. Rihanna.

B (21:57)

Love it. Okay, so SNL was such a big part of your identity, and you've now transitioned to your next chapter. How are you approaching this next chapter and what advice do you have for other people making a pivot in their lives?

A (22:11)

I have so many things I could say about this. I have learned to, you know, shoulders back, palms up, like, really be open. Be open to what the universe is pushing me towards. I have a friend who says, like, go where there's light and heat and, and, but you have to pay attention and really be present to feel that, you know, and then also pay attention when your gut's telling you something doesn't. You're not. Like, I don't really love it. Don't do it. So I'm really in this spot in my life where actually it's funny. Alex Rodriguez, who I, you know, I just did this documentary with him. I remember when I left SNL and we were sitting, talking, and we were talking about when he left, when he retired from playing baseball. He was kind of equating my leaving SNL to when he retired from baseball, right? His entire, like, 25 year career in baseball. And he said to me, he's like, whatever you do, don't build your next chapter and sit there and try and compare it line by line, stat by stat. He's like, SNL was amazing. It's one of the most incredible television shows we're ever gonna have. But, like, don't. Comparison kills it, right? And he's like, so build this new chapter and let it be something new and different. And don't keep looking back in the rearview mirror. And I just thought that was really beautif advice because he said, he goes, you don't even know where you could be in five years. And not like, you don't know where you're gonna be in five years. It was like, you don't even know where you, you could be in five years. And I, and that would be like, if I was gonna give it a phrase, it'd be that you don't even know where you could be in five years. And like, and what I've learned is that's true. If I, I trust that I am being put in situations that I can handle and that I'm meant for even if I don't know them. I don't understand every detail. Like, that's okay. I trust that I'm being put in situations I can handle. I'm really being open to meeting everybody and anybody. I love meeting people it's my most favorite thing in the world. I mean, the amount of friends I have gained in the past three years outside of show business have been tremendous. And I really feel like the idea of, like, goodness out, goodness back. Like, I. I think there's something about when you walk into a room and you think to yourself, how can I help someone in this room? As opposed to thinking, like, how are they gonna help me? That attitude, that mentality has served me so well, and it's always come back. It's not like I'm just constantly giving other people. I feel like the opportunities and the relationships that have come back tenfold in my life because I have that kind of like, let me give to you. It's. Especially since I left snl, it's really been a game changer. So I'd say, like, you know, for people who are pivoting, it's a very scary time. I would say I was definitely wobbly. You know, like, I. I have a. I had a really wobbly period. And so I'd say expect the wobbles. That's normal. It's not going to be up into the right. It's not perfect, but, like, you know, trust your gut, Meet as many people as you can, and don't make things transactional. Like I always say, build transformational relationships, not transactional ones. So the second you go into a relationship and you're like. And you're emailing somebody or you're having a coffee with someone, and you're like, hey, how. Who are you going to introduce me to? It's like, bad vibes change the way you. The perspective. Like, try and help somebody else, and I promise you that's going to come back to help you.

B (25:23)

Well, that's so much wonderful advice, Lindsay. So you mentioned Alex Rodriguez, and you recently executive produced the HBO series Alex vs. A Rod, which I was just starting this weekend. So I have one more episode to go. Can't wait. It's. It's fascinating. It's fascinating.

A (25:40)

It's so great. And part three is my favorite. I can't wait for you to finish it. I want to hear what you think.

B (25:44)

I'm going to watch it tonight.

A (25:45)

Oh, good.

B (25:46)

So tell us more about what drew you to his story.

A (25:50)

Well, what I love. I mean, I'll be honest. I'm. I'm a sports person. I'm not like a crazy MLB person. It's not like I always followed baseball. There's just so much baseball to watch. I was more of an NFL girl growing up. Go Bills. So I'd say this, like, Alex. This. The story of Alex, is that, like, it's not just a baseball story. It's like a human story. He. He made a lot of mistakes publicly, and he went through a lot of stuff. He. He was signed at the age of 17 as the number one draft pick for Seattle. A year earlier, he was on food stamps. He went from food stamps to being a millionaire in one year. And then he just, you know, he. He became a man in this world where he just, you know, it kind of got out from underneath him. And he made a lot of. Like I said, Leela made a lot of mistakes publicly. So we. It's really the story of Alex's, like, rise and then kind of his fall, and then his. His comeback, his redemption. And I love a comeback story number one. And I also really. I. I knew Alex before this project, and I really respected the person he was becoming, the. And the work he was putting into becoming that person. And I. I honestly thought I wanted the world to see that, like, you can really make a mistake. You can really fall. And yet, man, look what this man has done. He is the face of Major League Baseball. He owns a professional basketball team. He has a huge, you know, company himself that has all these investments, and he's really proud of it. So I. I love the story. And actually, when he asked me to be involved, I said to him, I was like, you know, it sounds interesting. I've never done a documentary, but I'm not interested in doing, like, you know, some of these, like, puffy piece pieces that you see that are just more like promotional vehicles to make someone look good. And I was like, I'm. I'll do it. If you want to really go there and get into, like, the hard stuff, that's what's interesting to me. The hard stuff, the mistakes. And he was like, I want to do it. And so to his credit, he did.

B (27:49)

Yeah, he does get vulnerable on there. And you go there and just wait until.

A (27:53)

Just wait until episode three. Cause then you'll. He really. It gets even more so. It's pretty cool.

B (27:58)

Okay, can't wait. Can't wait. What are you looking forward to creating next?

A (28:04)

I. I can't even tell you, like, the thing, because I have so much I could do, want to do, dream of doing. And. And it used to be, like, in this one vertical, and I used to, like, really understand it more based on my life at snl, and now I'm like, it's like, there's so many verticals. It could be in. So I would say this. I don't know where it's all headed. I believe in it tremendously. I believe that I'm on the right path and I don't always know, you know, I don't know everything. I don't know. You know, if someone was like, write it down exactly what's gonna. What you want to happen. I'm not. I don't work like that. But I'd say this. I. I'm leading into great people. I'm finding people that I really wanna work with. The joke becomes. I'm. I don't know if I said this to you that night that I, I saw you, but the joke is like, I can work with assholes. It's just like, I get to choose them. Like, if I want to do it, it's my choice now. I get to. I get to empower myself to work with difficult people if I want to. And, yeah, just like, really feeling connected and passionate about what the stuff, what I'm doing. So it could mean a lot more production. It could mean a lot. I definitely will be doing a lot more speaking. The coaching could be a book, could be a podcast. I mean, who knows? I mean, again, who knows where I could be in five years?

B (29:22)

So, last question. Looking back, if you could coach your younger self, that assistant just starting out at snl, what would you tell her?

A (29:31)

Um, I would say, Gosh, I would say a couple things. I would say stay true to who you are. You're going to, You're. You're going to work in an industry that's going to push who's going to test your boundaries of, like, your core beliefs. And it's going to be tricky, but you want to be able to sleep at night. So really just know this test is coming. I would say you're going to screw up. You're going to screw up a lot and you're going to, you're going to make mistakes and that's okay. Like, no matter, no matter how good you are, you're. You're bound to. To hit these walls and, and they're going to make you better. And then I would also say, no matter what you do, there are going to be people who don't like you and you can't, like, you can't perfect your way through everybody liking you in life. I really was such a people pleaser. I just wanted every single person to like me. And I would have liked to know that that's an impossible pursuit, and I wish I would have let that go earlier in my life because I wasted a lot of time with people giving people energy that didn't deserve it.

B (30:33)

Yeah, that's so true. Especially as you move up in leadership and take on those bigger roles. People are not as genuine, and you can't please everybody.

A (30:42)

You can't. And yet the other thing is, I would also say, like, pay attention. Like, when someone does something that's hurtful or they don't do what they say they're gonna do or they don't call or whatever it is, pay attention to it. I joked the other day, it's like, receive the data. When someone does something, don't make an excuse. I was so good at making excuses for people. Like, receive it and don't. You don't have to be offended by it. And you can. You don't have to hate the person, but just receive the data. You know, you're given a lot. We're given a lot of data on a daily basis, and our jobs, I believe, is to. Are to receive the data. And I wish I would have been better at that.

B (31:16)

I think I also heard you say, have compassion for yourself.

A (31:20)

Oh, yeah. Give yourself grace. I mean, that's. That goes into the mistakes. Like, I mean, I was so mean to myself. The voice that I. I had was so nasty. And I, you know, I remember my. My first therapist saying to me, like, what? The way you talk to yourself, you would never think about the person you. You like the least in this world. You would never speak to that person that way. And it was just such a shock to be like, oh, yeah. That's the voice you're going to hear the most in your entire life is the voice in your own voice. So it better be nice, it better be kind. And if it's not, do the work to get it kind.

B (31:55)

Well, you are amazing, Lindsay and I wanted to thank you for sharing your leadership dance on the podcast. Thanks so much for joining me.

A (32:02)

Thank you for having me, like, follow.

B (32:04)

And share the Leadership Dance, where we explore how to choreograph the career of your dreams and chat with visionary leaders who are breaking barriers in the arts and business world. Until next time, keep dancing.