Alisa Su Lynch (3:25)

Did you grow up with brothers and sisters?

Lawton Cummings (3:27)

I did, and we were super tight knit. My sister is 18 months older than me, and our brother is eight and nine years younger than us. So we really were initially caretakers for him, initially as babysitters. Back then we were kids of the 80s, so we basically cared for him. But then later our parents were separated and then my dad died, and so we really were a cohesive unit, the three of us. And we still are.

Alisa Su Lynch (4:04)

Yeah. That's amazing. Where did you grow up?

Lawton Cummings (4:07)

It's so funny. My husband was a military brat, and yet he lived all his life in D.C. and I was the daughter of a doctor. And we moved. They had us early. So we went through his medical school, internship, residency, private practice. Then we moved for him to go be chief of staff. So I grew up moving every few years, really. And then I was in outside of Houston for five years when my dad died and we moved in with my mom in California. So I think of myself as having been born in the South. But, you know, where you go to high school is really where you consider yourself as from. And that's where my sisterhood, like my best friends still to this day, in addition to, you know, best friends, we meet as adults, but from California. And then went to college in Tulane, really going back to my roots. My parents had both gone to Tulane and my grandfather, and it felt like a really nice way to kind of honor that tradition. And then law school at Georgetown.

Alisa Su Lynch (5:19)

Okay, yeah. So you went to law school at Georgetown, and then you became a litigator and spent part of your career also as a law professor. So besides kind of having two tracks that you thought you could go into either medicine or law, what actually drew you to law? What did you like about it?

Lawton Cummings (5:38)

I've always loved to write and I love to read. And I have this kind of insatiable intellectual curiosity that will lead me down a path, and I want to learn everything about it, and then I'm done. I want to go on to the next one. And the law is really good for that. Each case is something totally different. So you really go in depth if you're litigating. I mean, even anything is interesting when you go deep down, right? Like, so if you're going and litigating a toxic tort, you might think that sounds really bizarre, but then you get into it and you have to learn all about the chemistry and how toxins interfere with the soil. And so the law is really good for that. The only problem is, once you Start practicing, you become increasingly told that you need to specialize, which makes it boring. The zero sumness of litigation, I believe, is one thing that can lead someone to burnout and feel like they they're lacking in some purpose. I really enjoyed litigation. It was something where I was on the road a lot and having little kids and my husband deployed. So it became really hard. I decided to go on the market to become a law professor because I thought as an attorney, again, back to what I originally was thinking, I'd be in this lockstep career, which I eventually did away with that mindset, but thinking, okay, either you become a partner at a law firm or a law professor or a judge. That's what I was thinking. And so being a law professor seemed like it was perfectly suited for me. And I think it was, until again, the requirement to become highly specialized made it less appealing. But to go on the market to become a law professor, you really need to be published. So I took a few weekends and about a week maybe off of work and actually put pen to paper and really researched and wrote an article, got published, went on the market, and was matched with Washington and Lee and loved my time there. I was teaching crim and legal ethics from the philosophical standpoint, philosophies of the law, and writing in that area, which is really rich with things to write about. And then in order to move to George Washington, which I really needed to do for family reasons, my husband was commuting on the weekends. It's a three hour drive. And I had two little babies. So it was not really working for our family. But in order to make that move, they asked me to teach commercial law and I graduated number one in my class in commercial law. So I said yes. But that specialization is so highly specialized and it becomes a slog to write about something that is so specific and narrow and to a limited audience.

Alisa Su Lynch (9:07)

So you've mentioned that you had kids. Tell us about, like, when did that happen in your career and how were you managing that when your husband was deployed?

Lawton Cummings (9:16)

Oh, gosh, it was hard. That said, I always tell women who are thinking of having kids and you know this, Elisa, there's never gonna be a great time, right? We're all in careers and you're gonna have that discomfort. For us, it was really hard because Craig had gone to West Point and then after West Point, he had been thinking he would get out of the military. But then West Point asked him to come back and teach and said they'd send him to grad school. So we thought, great this is before 9 11. And so he had just started his PhD program at Columbia. And I was a young practicing attorney in a new attorney in Manhattan at Davis Polk. When the wars broke out and we knew we wanted to have kids. I was in my early 30s and we had our kids then. And then he knew he would eventually need to go. So he really worked to choreograph when he went. And he went with Special Forces, he went with Joint Special Operations to Afghanistan. So they were doing four month rotations where they would go in country and they were doing capture and kill missions every night. By then I had two young kids. This was before we had FaceTime, before we even had really good Skype. And I was traveling all the time. So that was really hard then going to be a law professor. And I moved us while Craig was deployed and he came back and went to this small town in Lexington, Virginia, which I loved because I love nature. And I was happy as a clam raising two little kids there and writing and teaching. But for Craig, it really was not ideal. He would not have been able to really actualize there as far as his career went. And in retrospect, me either. So I'm pretty convinced that that is one of the factors that stress that led me to get breast cancer. I know there's a lot of environmental factors involved. I didn't have any of the biological markers or genetic predispositions. No one in my family had had it. And I believe the stress of those years of just worrying about him and having the kids were the bright spot. Right. Like, and the work was great. The kids were amazing. On the outside we were happy, but inside I had this low level stress that just wouldn't. Wouldn't go away.

Alisa Su Lynch (12:19)

Yeah. Wow. So Lawton, so many things. I definitely want to dig into your journey with cancer, but I wanted to also just comment about having kids while working. It is really tough. And I had our first son when I was in business school. So I finished business school part time without, you know, the rest of my class and started a job full time right away while I was pregnant with my second. And so I put pressure on myself not to take along maternity leave because I felt like, oh, I have to prove myself. I just got hired at this job and it was just exhausting, you know, and we as moms, I think we take on so much and then as working parents as well, especially if, oh my gosh, my husband was around. But yours was all over the world. I can't imagine.

Lawton Cummings (13:07)

But Elisa, it's the exact Same pressure. And I believe that our generation, we were this experiment because our mom's generation, they were the ones who had gotten married and stayed home. And then when the 80s came about and it was really this huge divorce rate, women were going into the job market and going whole hog and saying, oh, my gosh, what have I done with myself? And then for us, we were the generation that was thinking, I can do it all right? I can have my family. I can have the career. And we just burned the candle at both ends. And I believe that that's what society expected of us also at the time. And what I've come to realize later is that either having some sections of your life where you say, okay, now I'm going to pull back a little bit, or being honest about what our needs are in the workplace and saying, I need to be home, or. And honestly, even with breast cancer, the first time I had it in 09, I was a tetanor truck law professor and was, I believe, even rightfully so, worried that it would affect my tenure if they knew I was in treatment. And so even though when I was in chemo, I wore a wig and continued to teach and go to conferences, and it's crazy to think back on it, because when it came back 10 years later, I believe I had both achieved a point in my career where I wasn't worried about that. And also, I believe society was catching up a little bit where I was open about the fact that it had recurred and I needed to leave and took a leave. And then when I started to feel better, said, okay, I'm ready to jump back in now. The other thing I think, and I believe that you and me probably both have this going for us, is that our generation is super close with our kids. And so I would love to have my kids live near us when they have kids. Something that our human species used to do, right? But we didn't do it. We were too busy moving around wherever was best for our career. And I still want them to do that. Or maybe I'll just get an apartment near where each of them are, where they have kids. But I do want to be helpful with them.

Alisa Su Lynch (16:01)

Yes, yes. Well, you know, the reason we moved from Seattle to New York City is because our older son, who was living in Seattle, he and his girlfriend decided to move to Atlanta. And my parents are on the east coast and our younger sons in New York City. So as soon as we found out, I just said to my husband, let's just move to New York City. Let's go back east and be close to family, right? Yeah. Can you share more about your journey with cancer? What did you learn from that experience? Like, how did it change your priorities? Or what kind of advice would you give to others who are going through that experience?

Lawton Cummings (16:36)

Great question. And yes, it definitely did shift my priorities. Not at first. You know, there's so many people who say, oh, it was such a wake up call. And for me, I was very much in survival mode. My kids were 3 and 5, and I was. My husband had just started his own business, and so I was definitely thinking, oh, my gosh, I just need to get tenure. And also, I was still Brownie troop leader and Cub Scout troop leader, so I was definitely not eating properly and not sleeping enough, all the things. And about a year after chemo and after double mastectomy reconstruction, I got shingles really bad on my back. I was teaching, and all of a sudden it felt like I was being tasered. I've never been tasered, but I imagine that's what it feels like. And I had the big rash all across my back. Went to the emergency room, had no idea what was going on. And the doctor told me it shingles. I went in to see a specialist and, like, what is going on? Isn't this an old person's disease? I've been out of chemo for a year. Like, why? And she's like, well, there's more to your immune system than just having it crushed with chemo. How much do you sleep? Do you exercise? You know that? No. I'd always been thin, so I'd never worried about what I ate. I was really just kind of eating whatever was left over at night after the kids, you know, feed the kids and then eat. And she said, if you don't change things now, you're gonna get cancer back this time next year, you know, latest. So that's when I realized, oh, man, I need to. I need to take a break. And I did. I loved that break. You know, what a break looked like for me was basically volunteering my time instead of. Instead of getting paid for it. But I still kept a foot in. I still taught as an adjunct. I still wrote. I even did some legal analysis still, because I already started doing legal analysis for the Fox News Channel, I still kept up my nonprofit work. And so when I went back into the workforce full time, it was pretty seamless. When I came back the second time, that was. That was an abrupt jolt, because when it goes stage four, you think, oh, my gosh, this. It Felt like you would imagine. I mean, you initially think unless they could find the right treatment for you, it's, yeah, you feels like a death sentence.

Alisa Su Lynch (19:51)

How many years after remission?

Lawton Cummings (19:55)

9. So, 09 was primary and then it spread in 18 to my lungs and lymph nodes. So thankfully, there had been a treatment regimen that had just been approved by the FDA that I'm like the poster person for. It's perfect for me. And I've been on it. It's a monthly cycle that. It's an oral chemo that I do. And it kills cells with high mitotic rates, so it kills off cancer cells. It also kills off red and white blood cells over time since they have fast mitotic rates, too. So I get run down at a certain time each month. And for several years, I really powered through that and was making the same mistake again. And it really wasn't until a couple of years ago, really, that I realized I have to take those days and be honest with myself, with scheduling, with my business partner about when I need that time, and with my family. I mean, there were times if someone said, hey, do you want to go on a trip, look at the calendar and be like, yeah, I can make it work. But then I just feel like crap the whole time. So I've now really learned to navigate that, and it's been wonderful. Letting go of trying to be perfect in everything allows you to be more authentically. Um, even if it's sometimes less neat, it allows you to do more while being authentically yourself while you're doing it.

Alisa Su Lynch (21:55)

Yeah. Wow. That's a really powerful lesson to learn. So, Lawton, I want to pick up on something that you talked about, which is that you continue to work as a legal analyst, and this came up in your bio at Fox News Network, but at the same time, you were serving on an ACLU board of directors, so that sounds like a contradiction. What led you to do both?

Lawton Cummings (22:20)

Well, I'll tell you, I have always been. One thing I love about the law is that you're starting from principles. And I have always felt this just, I guess as a. As a young person, I even felt this sense of justice. Like you, you know, you feel like, oh, but that's the sense of what's right or wrong, and not in a black and white way, but in a very gray way, which is really what the law is about, where you can see shades of gray and facts. So being someone who cares very much about individual rights, and that's what the ACLU is really protecting, has been protecting Speech and the rights of all people, regardless of political affiliation. And being a legal analyst, you're not advocating, you're explaining. So you're more of a translator. And one thing that's fun about it is that each case is different. So like, I, I'd get a call early in the morning because basically when there's the news cycle, they'll have their meeting and they'll say, okay to the schedulers, call one of the analysts and see who wants to do this. And then they knew. For me, I was always asked which side I would want to take, but you get the call and here's the facts. Like, the Somali pirate had boarded this ship was one of them. You know, just like crazy things that are so fun and interesting factually. Like an astronaut, she just landed, but she fallen in love with her fellow astronaut, and then she driven all the way there with duct tape and more diapers to go see him. And do you want to talk about this? And the answer is usually like, yeah, that sounds really interesting. And then you give your like, initial response like, what, what do you think about this initially? And I would always say, here's my initial thought, but I'm gonna, you know, really refine it and think about it. And then going on the air there, there sound bites. And so it's fun to, to have the parameters of you can only talk for this long. You need to make sure that you get across what you're trying to say, but stay within the law. So I found it really fun.

Alisa Su Lynch (24:55)

You also co founded something called the American Constitution Society, which you founded to promote balanced discourse. Can you tell us more about that?

Lawton Cummings (25:05)

When I was in law school, really the only game in town for going to something outside of class was the Federalist Society. And the Federalist Society is the conservative kind of legal think tank. They have been the ones to vet all of the judges and prosecutors for Republican governors and presidents, but there wasn't any counterpart for progressive lawyers or even more balanced lawyers. And when I was in law school, they would hold a debate and they did events maybe once a month, as they do on all law school campuses. And there's lawyer chapters in every city. And they would have pizza and beer, so everybody would want to go. And then the debate would usually consist of someone who was really well spoken on the conservative side, but then like a total wackadoodle for the other side. So my constitutional law professor and I were talking about this, Peter Rubin, and we were saying, why don't we have something that is more balanced, where you can actually have people from both sides. So we decided to start it. And we initially called it the Madison Society because the Federalists have Jefferson, and Madison was really the one who wrote most of the Constitution. I mean, there's nothing dorkier than talking about whether Madison or Jefferson. Better architects of the Constitution, unless you're Lin Manuel Miranda. I mean, he. He did it well. But eventually the name needed to be changed to the American Constitution Society.

Alisa Su Lynch (26:53)

Do you think we can have balanced discourse today?

Lawton Cummings (26:59)

I think we can in small groups. And that is my hope, is that that can be pervasive. Right now. It's gotten to the point where with the social media algorithms, there's no incentive for balance, and I hate it. You know, as someone who invests in tech, this is an example of tech gone awry. So I hope we can get back to it.

Alisa Su Lynch (27:30)

Yeah, but the American Constitution Society is still around, right? So.

Lawton Cummings (27:34)

Oh, yes. Oh, yes. And it's big. We have at our annual gathering, about 2,000 people come. We have chapters on every law school campus, and we have lawyer chapters in most major cities. So there's definitely a lot of us who are hopeful.

Alisa Su Lynch (27:55)

So, Lawton, I want to just transition briefly to a round of rapid fire questions that I didn't prepare you for. So just say whatever comes top of mind. What's something you want to learn this year?

Lawton Cummings (28:09)

Ooh. Right now, my husband and I have started taking dance lessons together, which is really fun. We have one tonight. I'm loving that. I have been going deep into the intersection of religion and science again. This is really what led me to transition from the law to venture capital.

Alisa Su Lynch (28:36)

What's one small ritual that grounds you?

Lawton Cummings (28:40)

Hmm. A small ritual. I love walking my dogs in the morning. That's not a small ritual because I have three, and so it involves a lot of work, but it's my favorite thing to do in the morning.

Alisa Su Lynch (28:57)

Amazing. What's one word your friends or family would use to describe you?

Lawton Cummings (29:04)

Oh, gosh. I hope loving and joyful. Curious. I hope kind.

Alisa Su Lynch (29:15)

You are all of those Laudan.

Lawton Cummings (29:17)

Thank you.

Alisa Su Lynch (29:18)

Where do you feel most at peace?

Lawton Cummings (29:21)

Nature. Well, the noise of the nature, but only the noise of the nature.

Alisa Su Lynch (29:28)

And what kind of dance are you and Craig learning?

Lawton Cummings (29:31)

We live in Texas. We're transplants, so we're right now country swing.

Alisa Su Lynch (29:37)

Oh, how fun.

Lawton Cummings (29:38)

Yes, it is fun. And it's very partner oriented, which is really neat for partners who've been together for 32 years. And I love your podcast called the Leadership Dance. And choreographing your career and relationships are Also like that. Right. They're a dance. It's neat to have that kind of physical connection where you trust and where a lot of dancing with partners is initially just establishing that connection and the trust of the movement when you're going to move with the other person. So it's a neat metaphor for a relationship. Yeah.

Alisa Su Lynch (30:22)

My problem is because I grew up dancing, when I dance with my husband, I want to take the lead.

Lawton Cummings (30:29)

I don't let him take the lead. I bet. Yeah, I can imagine. I was an ice skater as a kid and just like dance, but different surface. Right. Ice instead of the stage. And so do you let him take the lead? I do. With dance, yes. And it's fun doing that. I have found there's something to that, I guess like the trust falls in corporate team building. Yeah, exactly. I think, like, that doesn't look fun. I don't want to do that. So many of the things that we've had to do have been like ax throwing, you know, when you're in venture. Those are the types of things. And like walking on the high tightrope above when with nothing but your repelling thing on, I'm like, ah, this doesn't make you trust. But actually the being there and following that involves trust in a different way.

Alisa Su Lynch (31:26)

Okay. I have to learn to trust my husband. Yes.

Lawton Cummings (31:28)

And actually. Actually, you're leading in a different way. I mean, this is very much advice that my grandmother gave me when I got married. And my husband will say this all the time, that you're actually leading in that moment in subtle ways. And it's all about communication. And while he's called the lead because he's on the left foot and he's supposed to be the one to remember the moves. Like when he. He's going to be the one to turn, he's supposed to give the gradual nudge, but oftentimes he doesn't. So I give a little nudge. So to the outside world, it's looks like we're doing the traditional dance where he's leading, but in fact, it's a complete partnership. I love that.

Alisa Su Lynch (32:18)

I thought instead of partnership, I thought you were going to say, in fact, it's the woman leading.

Lawton Cummings (32:22)

It is. I mean, honestly, this is. Yes. I mean, you know, we rock.

Alisa Su Lynch (32:31)

Okay. So, Laughton, how did you get into Venture capital?

Lawton Cummings (32:35)

Well, great question. It's a very uncommon path to go from the law. And for me, it just really happened organically. As I mentioned earlier, I've always had these side interests. Well, actually, I guess the way I Described it is being hyper focused on one thing and going deep and then going to the next. But in fact, I've had various interests going at one time. And I used to worry that I was just dividing my attention and somehow diluting it. But in retrospect, I've learned that that's not actually what I was doing. So I keep these stacks of things that I was interested in back before we had cloud storage. And at that time, let's see, back in, I guess, the early tens, two thousand and tens, I was really into how our consciousness and spirituality and religion intersected with quantum physics. And so I'd gone down that road and then to think through whether consciousness is fundamental or whether it arises from the brain. I had gone down the road of the brain. And then when we were skiing, we were in someone else's home that like the precursor to Airbnb, it was like home exchange or something. And on the bookshelf was Ray Kurzweil's the Singularity Is Near. And I had not read about artificial intelligence, took it off the shelf and read and thought, oh, my gosh, reading about how machine learning was patterning after the brain. And I realized that lawyers did not have any clue what was coming. None of this was being taught in law school, and that all the liability models would need to change once machine learning was really out in the world, and that lawyers need to not only catch up to advise clients, but would need to be in the room in order to redraft legislation. So I really started thinking through that, talking with others about it. And one of my fellow law professors at the time eventually became the dean at Penn State Law School and then Northwestern. And she and I would talk about it. And so she called when she became dean and said, you've got to come teach a class on this because nobody's teaching on this. So at first I was like, no, I don't have time. She's like, oh. Like, come do it. So I said, yes. Started teaching that and then started advising companies and started really investing in companies, artificial intelligence. And then my former business partner asked me to come and be his partner at his venture firm. It took me by such surprise. And it's like, well, I don't know anything about this. I good at investing my own money, but I don't know how to invest other people's money. And he was fabulous. He said, anything you don't know, I can teach you, but your expertise and also the way you dive in and investigate companies, that's really what I want. And Craig, my husband, really encouraged me to do it. And sometimes you just need someone to say like, you should just do it. You should just jump. And he was already in venture capital, so like, well, okay, I'll try it. And then made that switch. And I don't think I even realized at the time what a big switch that was for what a career move that was. And loved it. We were slaying and I really was ready to be general partner, which in our field means you're part owner and real decision maker. And so my current business partner, I was telling Josh about that, oh my God, I'm ready for that. And that's when he said, well, come be my partner. Of course that's how I remember it. He remembers me saying, maybe I should be your partner. But I clearly remember him saying that I should be his partner. So venture really suits me. It's being on the edge of everything that exists already and really pushing for what's next. And then you really start recognizing patterns.

Alisa Su Lynch (37:27)

You are such a great example of following your interests and your curiosity. And by kind of going with that and going deep, it leads you to a new opportunity, like it opens up new opportunities to you. So I think that's an incredible story. So Lawton vc venture capital is still an industry where women are significantly underrepresented. How do you think about your role not just as an investor, but as someone helping shape decision making? How do you think about that as a woman?

Lawton Cummings (38:01)

VC is one of the last bastions that has really not changed as far as the male female balance. And it's important to have more women in the decision maker's seat about where money goes for so many reasons that have nothing to do with fairness. So women actually make the majority of the household decisions about what gets bought. So as far as consumer goods, women are the ones who really could point out whether something is a problem or not. So when women are pitching ideas in that field, that one's a no brainer. Then there's all kinds of research that shows that women in the room making decisions about even non household products. So think tech, think defense. Especially if there's more than one. If there's two or more in the decision making room, we're bringing in other ways of looking at the problem and it's less apt to turn into group think. It's actually one of the areas of our society that really would benefit from having more women in the decision maker's chair about what companies get money early. It's also one of the reasons why more women Founders don't get funded, I believe is that they're discounted. So that's another issue. And it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. So many women will think, I have this great idea, this is my background. But you look at your chances of getting funding and you think that doesn't look good. And so innovation that would have happened is lost.

Alisa Su Lynch (39:58)

Yeah. And it's not only in vc. I would also say in the boardroom, just some of the same dynamics. The fewer women you have, the harder it is to kind of have your voice heard. So there's a magic number of three in the room. Can you tell us just really briefly, what does Capital Factory invest in? What are some of the exciting companies that you are looking at?

Lawton Cummings (40:21)

Capital Factory. When Josh initially started it, he started it as an incubator, but over time it became so much more. And by the time I joined, we have now an advisory portfolio where we'll bring in really early founders who they have to have found their product market first fit. But we have a whole host of advisors and mentors and we can help connect them to capital and to customers. And then we have our venture funds where we invest money in those companies. And so when we bring them in initially for the advisory, we say we want, you know, a little bit of skin in the game percentage, but then we also want the right to invest later when you raise your first institutional round. And that's when we bring the Texas fund or the dual use fund. And then we also have a fund to invest in Henry Crown Fellow founded startups because Josh is a Henry Crown Fellow. You're a Henry Crown Fellow. My husband's a Henry Crown fellow. My last business partner was a Henry Crown Fellow. So people might think like, oh, they're everywhere. They're really not. The Aspen Institute does an amazing job of selecting innovators who are about 20 a year who've reached some great level of success before they're 45 and takes them from success to significance. So we invest in their companies when they finish the program. And that has been really successful too.

Alisa Su Lynch (41:58)

Amazing. Yeah. Thank you for sharing all of that. Outside of Capital Factory, you're also involved with a number of other nonprofit organizations. And I understand that you and your husband Craig performed maybe separate times at a Dancing with the Stars fundraiser for the center for Child Protection. Can you tell us more about that?

Lawton Cummings (42:20)

Yes. This is something that I love, that Austin does. There's one of the nonprofits here that we're involved in and I just is so near. Dear to my heart is the center for child protection. And what it is is when a child is removed from an abusive home on an emergency basis, not when a social worker has been following the case and then, you know, knocks on the door. This is when someone calls the police and says, you know, there's a child screaming next door. It's often middle of the night and the police go and remove the child. And in normal circumstances, they would be taken to the police station. They oftentimes don't have clothing. They are just wrapped in a blanket. And they end up going to the foster system right away because the police station doesn't have a mandate to hold them. They have no place to hold them. And getting in touch with a family member is just so hard. Often in the middle of the night with their. I don't know how much time they have. It's only like three hours. Also, the interview process is extremely stressful for the child and then has to be repeated because they don't have a nurse and a social worker right there. So here in Austin, a group of families got together and started raising money for what is now the center for child protection. And it's adjacent to the police station. And kids, it's seven a day, if you can believe it. Age 24 hour period. Instead of being taken to the police station, they're taken to the center for child production where There's a social worker 24 7, there's a nurse 247 who does the forensic exam. They're interviewed just that one time and it's on the record. There's a dog, there's toys, there's clothing, there's car seats. And they're allowed to hold the kids for something like 10 hours while they contact someone who can come and pick them up. So we love this charity. And one thing that I love that they do is once a year they have the Austin dancing with the stars. And the local celebrities are actually just people who can raise money. So they pick you. And they invited me one year and then they invited Craig another year. And everybody who comes gets a vote. And the tickets are like between 500 and $1,000 each. So you want as many of your friends to come as possible. It's all good natured, but it's all for the kids. And they pair you with a professional dancer. And so you train with a professional dancer for four or five months and then you go out and do your routine in front of everyone and then people vote. It is a really neat experience. And at first I was a little bit intimidated, but you know, the Muscle memory. As I said earlier, ice skating is a lot like dancing. And that just kind of kicks in and you're all of a sudden performing again. And it was an incredible two minutes.

Alisa Su Lynch (45:31)

And so who is the better dancer? Who won? Did you or Craig win?

Lawton Cummings (45:36)

Good question. Well, Craig, as part of when he accepted, he said, well, do it as long as I can break dance. So of course they started out with like a waltz and he was wearing his military uniform and then he pulled off his uniform and had breaking outfit under there. And so, I mean, that was so much fun. Who could compete against that?

Alisa Su Lynch (46:02)

We will share some video.

Lawton Cummings (46:04)

Okay. And believe me, I have a lot of it.

Alisa Su Lynch (46:08)

All right, last question. What advice would you give to your younger self about navigating your career while staying true to yourself?

Lawton Cummings (46:17)

Well, I would tell my younger self that really having this linear career is really an illusion. I think I thought of my side interests as just side interests or hobbies for a long time and would go for periods of time without going back to them. And that's really what nurtures you and could become your career. I'm a perfect example of that later and that those areas are informing everything you do. So to cultivate those interests and also to have more balance earlier, not allow myself to get burnt out. And I believe that these incredible humans that I've been blessed to have as my kids have really become what I would the advice that I would give to my earlier self.

Alisa Su Lynch (47:20)

Laughton, I've loved our conversation and hearing all about your leadership dance and I really appreciate also you speaking so openly about your cancer journey. I think that will help a lot of people to hear. Thank you so much for joining the podcast.

Lawton Cummings (47:34)

Thank you so much for having me. Alisa, I really enjoyed being here with you.

Alisa Su Lynch (47:39)

Like follow, follow and share the Leadership Dance where we explore how to choreograph the career of your dreams and chat with visionary leaders who are breaking barriers in the arts and business worlds. Until next time, keep dancing.

Podcast Advertiser (48:00)

Marketing is hard, but I'll tell you a little secret. It doesn't have to be. Let me point something out. You're listening to a podcast right now and it's great. You love the host, you seek it out and download it. You listen to it while driving, working out, cooking, even going to the bathroom. Podcasts are a pretty close companion. And this is a podcast ad. Did I get your attention? You can reach great listeners like yourself with podcast advertising from Libsyn Ads. Choose from hundreds of top podcasts offering host endorsements or run a pre produced ad like this. One across thousands of shows. To reach your target audience in their favorite podcasts with Libsyn ads, go to LibSynads. Com, that's L I B S Y N ads.com today.