Alisa Su lynch (4:11)

That is so amazing. That's like music to my ears to hear how intentional you're being about bringing in the mix of different choreographers and dancers and collaborators. Because I think we have to be so intentional in ballet if we're going to drive change. And it was just really powerful work overall. So congratulations again.

Susan Jaffe (4:32)

Thank you so much.

Alisa Su lynch (4:34)

Sometimes there are moments in our lives when everything changes overnight. And I've always loved the story of how you became an overnight sensation at American Ballet Theater at the age of 18. Can you share how that happened? You know, what were you feeling and what was your life like before and after? I mean, I'll call it being discovered. Although of course, you were there all along.

Susan Jaffe (4:59)

I was there all along, yeah, it was. So, you know, and it's interesting I'm going to about to talk about Mikhail Baryshnikov, because I follow in similar footsteps to what his values were in relation to bringing young people forward. For example, this past summer season, I promoted a 22 year old Chloe Misledine to principal dancer. And by the time I was 22, I was a principal dancer. So I really like to bring young, strong talent forward and give them opportunity because then they have the range of their, the rest of their career, their life and their career to grow and expand and to deepen. So that is what happened to me. I was in the second company for two years and I had some nice parts and not all the leading roles at all and just sort of living your average teenage life in a second company. I mean, certainly I was dancing a lot and then we heard that Baryshnikov was going to take over the main company. Lucia Chase, our original director, was stepping down and Baryshnikov was going to take over and he came to watch company class the second company class. And after that class, our director, rehearsal director, came up to me and she said, misha thinks you're very talented. And I remember sort of looking at her and looking behind me to make sure that she was actually talking to me. And so I thought, wow, that's kind of amazing, this major star. And so I joined the company at the end, at the beginning, actually at the beginning of August. One very sad thing that happened to me just before I joined the company is my mother passed away. So literally two weeks before I joined the company. So that was a really strange, you know, something so deeply sad and traumatizing, and then something so amazing to join American Ballet Theater all at the same time. It was really a wild experience. And suddenly I started seeing my name on the schedule with all the principal dancers. So there was this ballet, pas de deux, meaning dance for two, called Pas Describe. And it was from Corsair, Le Corsair. And I was on the schedule with Alexander Gudinov, Kelsey Kirkland, like these major names in the dance world at that time. I went into the office and I said, I think there was a mistake. My name is on that. And, you know, they. They just turned to me and said, that wasn't a mistake. So I walked in there wide eyed with all these major stars, and I learned the pas. I learned the pas de. And then we all got busy doing all of our various other things. And so a couple of months went by and I was learning actually some solo strolls. I was actually dancing with Baryshnikov in some things. I was the coquette in La Sombula. It wasn't the main role, but it was a secondary role. So I was, yeah, really being pushed. And then we went to the Kennedy Center. We were going to open. It was a three month rehearsal period, which is a very long time as a board member, you would know how long that is to rehearse a company for three full months. That's very expensive. We went to the Kennedy center, and the day before we were to open, we had a big dress rehearsal and the two main stars who were going to dance Patasklav, did not show up to the dress rehearsal. And they had some disciplinary issues at the time, and so Misha fired them. And he came to me and he said, how would you like to go on in the place of this major ballet star? And I said, well, thank you very much, but I am brand new in the company. I'm 18 years old. I was going to be the fifth girl in the back in Raymonda. In character shoes, you know, I'm fine there. And he said, oh, no, you'll be fine. So they threw me in a studio with Alexander Goodenough. I was scared to death. And they rehearsed me that day, so. So let's just say I haven't rehearsed in two and a half months. They rehearsed me that day, and then the next day, I went out and did the dress rehearsal. So that was the opening night. I did the dress rehearsal, and suddenly reporters, journalists wanted to talk to me and were suddenly wanted to know all about me. That was the first time I knew I had green eyes. Because they said, you know, brown hair, green eyes. And. And I remember looking in the mirror and saying, I have green eyes. I didn't even know, you know, I wasn't that aware of myself, you know. So I went out on stage, and I was terrified. Of course, I can't say that it was fun, but I. I had a veil over my face for the beginning of the dance. And I remember the orchestra starting, the curtain going up, this whoosh of cold air coming onto the stage. And I had the veil, and I was in the wings, and the veil was shaking. I was just shaking. But I went out there, and I guess it went well. And so suddenly, I was a big name overnight. And it was really going from zero to 60 in three and a half seconds. And I remember thinking, well, first of all, I just didn't. Wasn't. I didn't feel like I could live in the Susan Jaffe shoes that everybody was talking about. And I had a lot of feeling like I was a poser, like I was a fraud living this life. Susan Jaffe. But I was not feeling strong or confident enough to be that person. So what I did, I worked and worked and worked and worked and became a workaholic, which I still am as the artistic director. You have to be a workaholic to be that. And so I spent about 10 years trying to catch up to my name, you know, just. And I was given many, many, many roles. But I. I really didn't feel like I had caught up to my name. And after about 10 years, I said, okay, I can be Susan Jaffe. Now. I feel confident enough to be her. And. And then after that, actually, my artistic side really blossomed much more because I came into an acceptance of myself, not feeling like I had to prove anything to be who I was. So, yes, it was a shocking journey, but I am one of those people who, you know, if you get thrown to the lions, you're going to fight as hard as you can to make sure that they don't eat you. And that is kind of my personality. Just a lot of grit. I think dancers have that. So that was the beginning of my journey.

Alisa Su lynch (12:52)

I love that story, and there's a lot in it as I think about it from a business perspective. A lot of parallels that we can draw. People who get promoted before you feel ready, but also having sponsors and mentors who believe in you. And clearly, you were talented. You deserved it, but it took you a while to actually believe it yourself. So that imposter syndrome that many of us experience during our careers, did you feel like you had mentors and sponsors supporting you throughout your journey? So not just Misha in the beginning, kind of recognizing your talent and believing in you before you believed in yourself. But, like, how did you. Over that 10 years, how did you get to become Susan Jaffe in your own mind as well?

Susan Jaffe (13:34)

My rehearsal director was very nurturing, so she really protected me, really kept trying to help build me up so that I felt confident. You know, the company culture at the time was not as generous as the dancers are with each other today. So I didn't really have many friends in the company. One young woman came up to me one day my first year, and she said, I just want you to know everybody hates you, but I'm not like that. I would like to get to know you before I decide whether I like you or whether I hate you. So can we go out to dinner?

Alisa Su lynch (14:17)

Wow.

Susan Jaffe (14:18)

And so I said, okay. And then we became friends. So I had maybe two friends. Even as I got older, I had very few female friends. It was a really different culture. So a lot of my friends were male, gay, male friends, and they were very supportive and wonderful, just were of great support. And then, you know, I also had. As I grew older, I had support. I worked a lot with Julio Horvath, who created at Gyrotonics. He was a strong mentor of mine, of course, my Pilates teachers. I did a lot of extra curricular things. I had a dramaturg I worked with for 10 years, and he was extremely supportive. So I did find my support team.

Alisa Su lynch (15:07)

Yes. And I know. I think I attended a talk with one of the choreographers with abt, and he was saying how, you know. And you mentioned this, the dancers are so supportive of each other. It's like, really a family. And I'm just curious, how are you trying to promote that? Because it sounds like it's very different than the ABT that you used to Dance with.

Susan Jaffe (15:29)

They do that themselves. You know, they're very, very tight knit. I think one of the things that I would like for them to feel is that when they say we support each other, that that includes the artistic staff, that includes the artistic director, that includes the executive director, that we support each other. Because I think that unions have a tendency to create an atmosphere of us versus them. And last met season, at the end of the season, I said, you know, you need to remember I was one of you. I was one of you. And so are all the rehearsal directors sitting here right now. We were all you 30 years ago. And we know your life and we know what it's like, and we're doing our absolute best to do everything to support you. So I would like to try to, you know, change the perception of us versus them. Just to go back to, they are very, very supportive of each other. Somehow they grew up that way. One of the many things that I promote is kindness, you know, kindness, compassion. There is no. It's such a hard life. There is no reason to be anything but kind and compassionate and loving. You know, Irina Kolpakova, the great Irina Kolpakova, who still are one of our rehearsal directors, she came up to me the other day and she said, I am so proud of you because she was my coach. She said, I'm so proud of you. You are so positive to the dancers. You are so loving, you are so caring, and it's so good for them. And I said, yes, of course, they. They need that. She said, I know, but not everybody knows that. So that. That was a nice reinforcement of sort of the culture that I want to create around everything and also a culture of transparency. I think it's better to be truthful than try to skirt around the truth, because I think people deal better. Even though, let's just say, if you are truthful, they must say things in a very, very kind way. But to be truthful, rather than try to figure out ways to say it in a different way, that can be very confusing. I think that that's not fair to me. To be as honest as possible is the fairest thing you can do as long as you are honest with complete love in your heart.

Alisa Su lynch (18:10)

So I'd love to transition to talk about your transition from being a performer to then becoming the leader that you are today. And then you danced with ABT for 22 years and then decided to retire from the stage. What was that decision process like for you? I remember when I stopped dancing and I didn't dance quite as long as you did. But I still felt my identity was a dancer. I was a dancer. People knew me as a dancer. That's how I thought of myself. And I'm sure for you that was your identity as well. So how did you figure out what to do next? And how did you deal with reimagining what success would look like for you?

Susan Jaffe (18:51)

What I did, I don't recommend to anybody. I didn't have a strong plan when I retired. I thought I was going to maybe go to the Shakespearean company in Washington D.C. where they worked with older actors. And then I thought I would do that sort of tour the country. I really loved acting and so I wanted to do that. It was interesting. You know, I really follow my gut more than my logic. I'm, you know, I am very logical, but particularly at that time, I didn't know strongly what I was going to do, but I knew it was time to retire. So I really had to take a leap of faith. And as I said, I don't recommend that because that can also be, you know, reckless in a way. But it didn't turn out for me that way. Two weeks after I retired, I met the chairman of the board of abt. His name is Louis Ranieri. And I was talking with some board members and they said, you know, Lou is really also looking for somebody who can sort of be right next to him. He's in, you know, Wall Street. He doesn't know anything about dance. He really wants somebody right next to him who can get him much more involved and knowledgeable about dance, you know. And of course he would be working with the artistic director, but not anywhere nearly as involved as what they believed he needed was to really get a deep dive. So he, the chairman hired me as advisor to the chairman and the president of the board of trustees of American Ballet Theater. And I did that for seven years. But at the same time I started teaching, I started teaching students and I didn't want to teach students I didn't want to teach. I felt at the time that I was pragmatically thinking about myself and that I was self centered in a way, not in a negative way, but very much about what I needed, what I need to do and things like that. And so I felt like I couldn't really give what should be given to students. And so the American Ballet Theater Jacqueline Kennedy Onassa School opened and the new, the new director at that time, John Meehan, he said to me, oh, come on, start teaching. And I said, I don't think I'LL be good at it. I really don't, I don't think I have the makeup for it. And he said, well, why don't you do this? Why don't you teach for a month or two and then if you don't like it, then you can stop. So I did and I fell madly in love with teaching. I fell madly in love with the students and their growth and things that they, you know, by gaining knowledge and getting better. I, I was as if Cupid had hit me in the heart with an arrow. It was that dramatic. And I realized, oh, I am actually not self centered. I needed to be self centered, to be a dancer, to go on stage, you know, I needed my massage, I needed my physical therapy, I needed all these things. But when I didn't have dancing anymore, I realized, oh wait, actually what is fulfilling to me is to give to others. That fulfills me so deeply. The thing about me is that I never say no. And I'm very courageous. So I will just do something that other people might think, wow, that is, I can't believe you just did that. So what happened was I opened a dance school in Princeton, New Jersey. I had a co director and we opened it together. That was a year and a half into my work with Lou and I asked for his blessing. And so I was going back and forth between Princeton, abt, jko, working with Lou. I was, I was mad crazy. But I did it, you know, and put the money down, built the school and started teaching and running a ballet school and learning a lot about that, learning about choreographing. And I just threw myself into it. And this is one thing I say to young people, because when I was a dean, I would say this a lot. And I would also say to people who are transitioning, don't say no to anything, just say yes. You never ever know what you may find. So after seven years in the dance school, there was a rehearsal director opening at abt. One of them had passed away and there was an opening. And I love students, but I really wanted to come back and work with professionals. I did. I came back for two years and it was just like a love fest. My heart was full all the time. That's when I first met Isabella Boylston and started coaching her. And she was such so young at the time and Jillian Murphy and Stella Abrera, all this group of amazing dancers and I was having the time of my life. I loved it. But then one day somebody at abt, she was the executive director of the school and she said to me, we're trying to open an affiliate school at the University of North Carolina School of the Arts. And we really feel like you're the best choice. And that school was going through a major issue. There was a grievance against the chancellor. And I was told, we feel like you're the only one that can fix this. So I went there, I met with the faculty, and they said, we're not going to even interview you. We're not going to interview you, but we're going to tell you our side of the story. So they did. And my heart poured out to them. And I don't like to come in and raise things to the ground. I like to come in and, okay, here are some things that are great. Here are the things we can build on. Here are the things that we need to do to move forward. But it was really there at that school that I learned, truly learned leadership. I had a faculty of 14 with a lot of personalities. Contemporary ballet, very strong teachers, a staff of four. I had four other arts deans. I was working with the provost, chancellor. And I learned there the most important thing is to make decisions based on what you think is the best thing for all concerned. Whether or not it's the most popular choice at that moment in time should take no weight. It's really what's the best thing in the long game. And that's what I learned. What is the long game? Not what's a short game, but what is going to be the best for the whole organization in the long run. And that takes time. And luckily, I have a lot of patience. I don't know. I guess being a dancer takes a lot. A lot of patience to be a dancer, because we're fighting with these bodies, right? So I really feel like that's where I learned the most important lessons in leadership. How to be loving, how to be truthful, how to hold people's feet to the fire, and if somebody is out of line, how to get them back in line by giving them a choice. And also just to be as compassionate and loving towards the students and what they needed. And those students also taught me and our faculty a lot about today's world. So I'm very grateful to the whole experience experience there to teach me about leadership.

Alisa Su lynch (26:37)

That's a wonderful recap of how you transitioned from being a performer to really becoming a valuable leader. And you've talked a lot about what you learn from dance throughout this conversation. You mentioned grit. I also picked up on just being courageous because I think what you talked about of like not saying no and trusting your gut and actually just jumping in and doing things. I feel like we learn that from dance because we fail all the time, whereas I think a lot of other people maybe are afraid of failure and so maybe don't want to take that risk. But we fail over and over every day. Right. When you're dancing and trying new every day, new moves and. Yeah, so that's another thing. And then just the compassion and collaborative nature. So I'm sure there are other things you've learned from dance that we can talk about as well. But I want to move forward to you becoming the artistic director of abt. So I saw a study from Data Dance Project that said that there are only 11 female artistic directors within the largest 50 ballet companies in the world. So that's only 22% female. And those percentages haven't really changed over the last five years. They've been measuring. So you are the first female artistic director of abt, the sole female artistic director since Lucia Chase co founded the company 85 years ago. What did it take for you to reach this big leadership positions? Did you face any obstacles, any barriers that you felt you had to overcome? I know you moved from North Carolina School of the Arts to Pittsburgh Ballet Theater, but, you know, ABT is one of the world's greatest ballet companies. And what did it take for you to get that role?

Susan Jaffe (28:21)

I think just knowing the company, I know the company. I know the level, the standard. I know how it has always performed, what kinds of roles they do, where I needed to preserve things like the classics, like the dramatic works. Especially at the time, you know, over the last five years, ballet was really frowned upon for a long time. It's elitist, it's racist. It's all of these things. And I remember having a conversation with Alonzo King. He is the artistic director of Lines Ballet in California, and he is an artist of color. And he is one of the most amazing human beings in the world. Very deep. And he's got a blog. I urge everybody to go who are artists, go and read his blogs. He's incredible and very insightful. And one day I was having a conversation with him, and I said, what do you think about, you know, people more in the contemporary world saying that ballet was racist? I said, what do you think about that? That? And he said, ballet isn't racist. People are. And I said, you're right. Ballet is not racist. Now, at the time, also, there were some ballets that had misappropriations in them. Le Valladare had Corsair, for sure, other works, and that those needed to be modified but not canceled and not killed. So I was having this conversation with Alonzo and so learning how to find ways forward where we are inclusive of all people, all voices, diverse dancers, etc. And also, when I first joined ABT, one dancer came in to me and she actually is darker color skin. And she said, not all of us want to wear flesh tone tights. Actually, we like pink tights. And I said, you know, I said, I, I hear you, but when we wear flesh tone tights, that means we are inclusive of everyone and that everybody feels included. And it's also what we say to the world. So it, yes, you may like pink tights, but the bigger message is more important for everyone to feel loved and supported. And she walked out of my room, totally. I get that, you know, and so everything is fine. So doing that, one day, one of the wigs and makeup people came to me and said, we were doing Giselle, and one of our black dancers wanted to know, should I Did she want me to take. Her hair was twisted. Did I want her to take her twists out? I said, no, I love your twists. Just put it in a classical bun the way the rest of us put our hair in a classical bun and you'll be just fine. So I want for the ballet world to expand and be inclusive and not be so rigid that people don't feel included. And that also taking out all of the misappropriations in some of those ballets is also really, really important. And I have to say, I was taught by my students to really be mindful. I remember one day, one student said, I said, why should I tell you what my pronouns are? Tell me why? Because you're asking me to tell you what my pronouns are. And I know what my pronouns are, but why do I have to tell you? And the student said, because then that tells me you're safe. So I learned all of these things before I was even asked to participate in the search to be at abt. And so I think one of the things, I was very happy in Pittsburgh. I loved my company. I loved the things that I got to do there. I finally bought my dream house. It was a big three story, gigantic house on the water with big trees and the Allegheny out in front of me. And I fireplace everything I wanted. Everything I wanted. And then the search firm called me from abt and I was thinking, oh, I just bought this house. I feel so settled. But this is my personality, which said, you know, if you don't apply for that job, you'll never know if you would have gotten it. And so I was thinking, you know, maybe they'd want somebody 10 years younger than I am. You know, I was just turned, I was 59 at the time, but I thought, okay, I'm going to apply. So I applied and. Because if I didn't get abt, it wouldn't have been the end of the world because I was happy where I was. I just decided I was going to be as truthful as possible. So when asked a question, I just said what I thought. You know, I said it in ways that I felt were loving, but I said the truth. And I thought, they're either going to hate that or they're going to appreciate that. I guess I. It was appreciated and also I think because I know ABT so well and I knew most of the people on the search committee for years, but it had been a long, nail biting search, I have to say. And it was months and months and months. And the day that there was one morning, it was eight in the morning. Two friends of mine sent me over an article by Sarah Kaufman, who had written in the Washington Post how ABT should either hire Misty Copeland or Stella Abrera and that it was important for ABT at this time to really make a statement for an artist of color to run the company. And I remember writing back both, both of those folks and saying, you know, AB Teen needs to do what's best for abt. And regardless, I am going to support and bless ABT to do whatever it needs to do. That's the right thing to do. That morning, and it had been over a month since I had spoken to the search firm. That morning at 9am I got to my car and I was about to go to work and the search firm called me and it was a man. And he said, hi, this is Michael from the search firm. I just want you to know. And I'm sitting here there waiting for him to say, we've gone in another direction. And he said, just want you to know that you're the one. There's that many pauses.

Alisa Su lynch (35:10)

Why would he deliver it that way?

Susan Jaffe (35:12)

Oh my gosh. Great sense of humor. Great sense of humor. So of course I just, I was overwhelmed, you know, I thought, wow, I'm coming home, you know, I'm coming home. And that's what it feels like, you know, not, it's not without its challenges. As, you know, as a board member, there's a lot of challenge happening at ABT and the arts, performing arts in today's world. And, you know, there are some sleepless nights. But I have also a great partner, our executive director, Barry Huson. And we're going to get through this. And that's another thing about being a dancer. You know, we're the ones expected to go out on stage and stand on one toe, balancing in front of 4,000 people, right, with the lights in your face, the floor is slippery, your partner is scared, all of those things. And you still have to do it. Right. That is also what I learned as a dancer, is just to just do it. That's all you do. You just do it. You do everything you can and you do it, and you do it with as much love and, you know, joy as possible.

Alisa Su lynch (36:17)

So can you talk about what is your vision for ABT and what are you excited about, both in the short term and the longer term?

Susan Jaffe (36:24)

Well, it's. I love programming. I love being able to bring a balanced program. You know, sometimes when I was not an artistic director, I would come to a show, not necessarily abt, but anybody's performance, and say, wow, every single ballet was a tutu ballet, or every single ballet had the same tempo. And every single ballet or was all contemporary ballet. And I really like that mix. I like to bring the audience a mix so that you don't. Your eyes don't get tired, so that you get this sort of up and down throughout the entire evening. So I love to do that, but also to be really mindful about, you know, what is marketable, what can we market that people want to come see? What, how much diversity can we bring so that we hearing from all kinds of voices, how can we preserve classical ballet at the highest level and preserve dramatic works at the highest level? And so I think about that within every season, how to construct the whole season and also what anniversaries are up. Like, next year we have our 85th anniversary. I'm thinking about, okay, how. How are we going to market that and what are we going to do to honor that 85th anniversary? What kind of programs are we going to do there? But in the more immediate future, we are in a co production with Vienna Staatsoper to do the Winter's Tale by Christopher Wheeldon. It's a Shakespeare story. I've only seen it on video. So not live. And that's harder to see a ballet that way. And I've heard it's his absolute best ballet in the world. And having a co production with the Vienna Staatsoper is much better because we're literally sharing all the costs. I will see the premiere in Vienna so that I get to have some familiarity with the ballet before it comes to abt. So that and also our up and coming summer season with A Winter's Tale in there and all the ballets that we know and love, Swan Lake, Giselle, were bringing back wolf works that was seemed to be a real audience favorite. And Sylvia, which is an Ashton ballet, very strong classical ballet. So I'm excited about that, not only because I get to highlight my dancers, my principal dancers, but also because we'll be having some surprises in there with up and comings and bringing them forward as well. So there's lots of really wonderful things coming up.

Alisa Su lynch (39:00)

Looking forward to it. So maybe one final question as we wrap up this conversation. What advice would you give to your younger self? Knowing what you know now?

Susan Jaffe (39:10)

I would say to my younger self, if you can just ride the wave, just ride the wave and keep doing your best, you will come out on the other side. And I would say 10 times out of 10, as you said earlier, we fail up 10 times out of 10. It is. Everything is much better at the end of the day, at the end of whatever journey, at the end of whatever challenge you've had, you actually have deepened, you've widened, you have more experience, just the knowledge to be able to come to that next level. And so don't be anxious, just ride the wave. Make sure you breathe, meditate, do anything you can for self care, stay, you know, exercise, eat well, try to sleep as well as you can, but don't, you know, don't fret as much as you, you used to. At the end of the day, it's, it's not really worth it. I don't remember that movie, but there was a movie and there was this Russian spy and throughout the entire movie somebody would say, aren't you worried? Aren't you anxious? And he would say, would it help? Do you remember that movie? At the end he gets sent to prison or he's about to go into prison and somebody says, aren't you worried? And he just turns and he said, would it help? So and the answer is actually no, it but it helps.

Alisa Su lynch (40:33)

So that's true.

Susan Jaffe (40:34)

That's what I. The advice I would give to my younger self.

Alisa Su lynch (40:37)

That is great advice, Susan. It's been an honor to have you on the podcast and to hear about your amazing life and leadership dance both on the stage and off. And I can't wait to see what you do next with abt. We're so happy to have you as artistic director, and I personally feel like you've brought so much energy to the company and I know there's many good things to come. So thank you so much for joining me.

Susan Jaffe (41:01)

Thank you so much. Thank you.

Alisa Su lynch (41:03)

Stay tuned. Share and subscribe for more episodes of the Leadership Dance, where we explore how to choreograph the career of your dreams and chat with visionary leaders who are breaking barriers in the arts and business worlds. Until next time, keep dancing.