← The Leadership Dance
The Leadership Dance
Ep. 6: Dancing in the corner office, with Carla Vernón
00:49:10
In this episode of The Leadership Dance podcast, host Alissa Hsu Lynch sits down with Carla Vernón, CEO of The Honest Company, to not only talk about her impressive accomplishments but also to delve into the unique challenges she’s faced as a woman...
Loading summary
Transcript67 lines
- [00:03]
A
Hi there and welcome back to the Leadership Dance. I'm Alisa Su lynch and this week's guest is my dear friend, Carla Vernon. Carla is the CEO and board director of the Honest Company. A transformational business leader, Carla is widely recognized for her record of strengthening business models, driving category leading innovation, scaling brands, and inspiring team culture. Prior to Honest, Carla was vice president of consumables categories@Amazon.com, where she led double digit top line growth in Amazon's $200 billion online store for categories including baby care, household products, health and wellness, and beauty. Carla also served at General Mills as a corporate officer and division president where she built iconic brands and led General Mills to become the second largest manufacturer of organic food and initiated the food industry's largest ever commitment to advancing regenerative agriculture. Carla serves on the board of trustees for the Smithsonian National Museum of the American Latino and recently completed her tenure as a trustee of Princeton University. Carla, I am so looking forward to this conversation. Thank you for joining me.
- [01:15]
B
Oh, it's great to be here. Congratulations on the pod.
- [01:18]
A
Thank you. We first met when we were both students at Princeton where we danced together in a student dance company called Expressions. And for me, that was really a formative time of being part of the small dance community at Princeton before I decided to dance professionally. I remember at that time that in addition to the dance department, there were only two student dance companies on campus. Now there are over 15 dance groups on campus and a brand new arts complex, the Lewis center for the Arts, which is just mind blowing to me. We were the OGs. Now do you remember how we met? I think maybe I was president of Expressions at that time.
- [01:59]
B
Oh. I mean, it's seared in my mind. So do you mind if I share?
- [02:05]
A
Uh, oh, no, I don't mind.
- [02:08]
B
Well, before I came to Princeton, the summer before packing up and heading out to New Jersey, I'd actually gotten a medical diagnosis. And my doctor said I need to have emergency surgery that summer and abdominal surgery that summer before heading off to campus. And I was like, no, no, can I just have the surgery at Thanksgiving? Like, I gotta go to Princeton. I can't just have this surgery right now. And so it was very clear that the surgery couldn't wait. So when I got to Princeton, I was still actually in somewhere three, four weeks post surgery and recovering and not moving with my full ability. But I learned that there were auditions coming up for the dance company. I had been a dancer since I was 4. I think we'll talk about that. And so of Course I was like, well. And I had sent a dance reel, a video reel with my application to Princeton. So I knew that I wanted to continue my dance journey when I was a student. And so I was excited about the auditions, but I was very concerned because I didn't have my full mobility. I can't remember. I think it might even be that it was a two day audition that you guys had where you taught some choreography in the first day. Because you were, you were one of the officers of the company of expression.
- [03:24]
A
So. Yes.
- [03:25]
B
And I remember you, our good friend Christina. I walked into this audition not knowing you all. You are two years ahead of me in school, and I'm always ahead of you.
- [03:36]
A
Carla, you are my boss.
- [03:37]
B
So I'm not going to disagree with you. When you're in college or high school, someone who's two years older than you just seems like, I mean, that is. Those are big. That's big stuff. So when I walked in, now you are actually little stuff. Physically, you're just a little bitty thing, but attitude wise, nothing small about you. So I walked in the audition and I had to explain that I can't do everything and I'm going to try my best. And I was very nervous. I was very intimidated. And you, you command a room. You always have. And so I was nervous. But you guys were very forgiving. I have no idea. If you just. We're like, we need all these people anyway, so let's just make it seem like it's gonna be tough. And so I didn't have the full ability to do everything, but I did have one signature move that you may remember. It never let me forget my sexy leg move. I feel like that's what nailed it.
- [04:29]
A
It actually was very competitive. Not everybody got in. So you. That means you were a very good dancer despite recovering from surgery. So that is how we met and we became friends. You were even in my wedding. And we've remained friends. And our career has somewhat paralleled each other in terms of going into consumer products, getting our MBAs, moving to tech companies, and then now landing at the Honest Company. So now we work together at the Honest Company where you're the CEO and I get to support you on the board of directors. So you joined about two years ago and the company has been on a roll under your leadership. So tell us more about honest and how it's going.
- [05:12]
B
So honest, for people who might be listening who aren't familiar with the company, the Honest Company is a personal care company that spans many categories across personal care We've got beautiful facial products, face serums, lotions that are for adults or people of any age. We make surface cleaning wipes, and our largest category are our baby products. So we started as a diaper company. We also make wonderful wipes and creams and body washes that you want to use on little ones. And the central mission we have is to sell products made with clean ingredients. There's so many people trying to avoid different ingredients and allergens these days. And so when Honest was founded 13 years ago, many people know about Honest because it was founded by a group of founders, including actor Jessica Alba. When Honest was founded, it was really something different in the market. When I arrived two years ago, the business had just exited the IPO stage. We were about a year and a half into our ipo, and the business was struggling a little bit to find its footing. So I've been focused on a turnaround.
- [06:17]
A
You've been launching a couple new products. So I've actually really enjoyed trying all the different products and also gifting Honest. And when I gift Honest products, I hear from both moms to be and moms who already have kids, they just love Honest. It has great brand recognition, and the whole sustainable, clean ingredients message really resonates. But for me, I've really liked trying out the new products. The new ageless product I have seen. Not in the mom category now. Okay, product plug. But it's also just been really a full circle moment for me, getting on the board of directors of Honest, because I started my career working on Johnson's Baby at J and J and had experience with all those categories. But now I get to work with the Honest company, which is really for today's moms.
- [07:05]
B
I love it. We love having you. And I don't know if your audience knows, but you are not only a dancer, you are a goat in many other realms. One of the things I think is super cool is you are also a patent holder from your time at jj.
- [07:18]
A
I am actually for the Johnson safety swabs, which I believe are still around. So it's a cotton swab that won't go too deep into the baby's ear. That was one of the first projects I worked on. Yes, thank you for reminding me.
- [07:30]
B
I love it. We're taking care of the babes.
- [07:32]
A
So one of the things I really admire about you, Carla, is you've been very intentional about building your board of directors and on driving and building the culture of the company. Can you talk more about that?
- [07:44]
B
When I arrived at Honest, I was a first Time CEO of a publicly traded company. I had so much to learn. It has been an incredible journey. One of the biggest champions and coaches that I've had on that journey is the chairman of our board of directors, James White, who not only had a big role in my hiring decision, but as we framed up the transformation initiative for the company, which was first and foremost a financial transformation, but it also had elements of changing management, team members and eventually evolving the board. James and I had the opportunity to actually reshape the board not too long after I arrived. It makes sense because a lot of times as a company goes into the IPO stage, there are some people who stay on the board who were really part of the private phase of investors and they don't intend to hold those board seats forever. And so the time came to be able to shift some people out of board seats who were from that stage and bring people in who were experts in their field. Based on the strategy we knew we were articulating on a go forward basis. I had the privilege of being able to actually fill three new board seats. So I am a board member and we already talked about James. There were another, a number of other board members who stayed on. But in filling those seats, I wanted to make sure that we stayed true to people who have expertise from cpg. So we brought in some people who have experience at Mondelez, experience at J and J, but also some forward oriented things like you bring us the real tech experience and this focus on AI and technology solutions. And then our company believes that we thrive better as a consumer packaged goods company that reflects the people who buy our products. So diversity and representation are important to us so that we have the insights for all the people we serve. So bringing on new board members also gave me an opportunity to consider our gender and cultural diversity. So our board is actually 66% female and 56% people of color, which is very remarkable in the public sector.
- [09:52]
A
Absolutely. Congratulations on doing that. And I will say it's a really well functioning board. We love our board chair, James. And I'm still learning so much from your leadership as well.
- [10:02]
B
I usually learn from you.
- [10:05]
A
Oh no, that is not true. So Carla, you earlier mentioned it that you're a first time CEO. What is the difference between the operating roles you've had before and then functioning as a CEO? What are some of those things that you've learned?
- [10:18]
B
A CEO of a publicly traded company first and foremost owns the responsibility of making sure that the enterprise does the right thing for the people who invest the money. The shareholders and that's very different. So you and I both grew up in consumer packaged goods at 2, I think they call them like Academy blue chip companies, General Mills and jj. They are the finest of the finest. That's the reason why a hundred and I don't know JJ's exact age at this point, 150 years later, 170 years later, those companies are still delivering super top products and brands. And we learned the craft of running a P and L and a business model. And we learned the craft of being the central function that really is the captain of the team for all the cross functions that that work on our brand teams. That training was really preparatory for becoming a CEO. But there were a few things that we didn't own when we were a little bit farther down the food chain inside of consumer packaged goods. So we didn't own. The responsibility to determine is the whole enterprise maximizing the way shareholders can get their value. That is something I've had to learn. Which means you have to take a step back and say what maximizes shareholder value. I've really been a student of that. And then of course I'm responsible for making sure that the right leaders are hired and the right strategy is articulated so that the company overall can be successful. But I think some of the meatiest things for me to learn and I have enjoyed it is the IR the investor relations side. I didn't own that at all. I'd spoken to investors a couple of times when I was at General Mills because I ran some acquisition businesses and it would be easier for me to just explain those to the investors than for senior management to have to learn it and then also explain it. But I never owned the entire relationship, which means that my stock is also a product. My stock is a product in the portfolio of these investors and they want to be able to think through whether there's more growth and there's more value in the future. And so learning how to talk in their language and even do all that four quarter cycle of speaking to the public about the company has been such a learning curve. I have loved it. Then also I'm used to having one boss in other jobs where we have hopefully you have one boss, maybe you dot line to another boss. Now as I'm a CEO, I have a board chair who is my boss. But I have eight other, well, seven other because I'm one of the board members. I have seven other bosses who all have their own personalities, who all have their own different areas of expertise. And you guys operate as a collective brain for shareholders. And so really learning how to have the right relationship of both collaboration as well as being led by you and leading you at the same time, that was new and I'm enjoying it. I'm having so much fun.
- [13:08]
A
Yeah, there certainly is a lot of complexity in reporting into a board of directors. We all are supporting you collectively, but we're all individuals as well. So I'm sure it's not always easy for you, and I apologize for that. But I will say that some of the insights that you shared about the difference between being an operator and then becoming a CEO are things that I also had to learn in becoming a board director, because as a board director, it is much more about governance. We are also concerned about the same key stakeholders. So that was interesting to hear you talk about that. And that light bulb go off.
- [13:42]
B
In my mind, it's really fulfilling chapter of the journey. We put so much investment in getting good at all those previous stages. It's wonderful to have a chance to really build and still be learning and still be loving. I think, you know, at our heart, we both love building brands, we love building companies and teams. And so it just continues the fun.
- [14:00]
A
Okay, so I want to press rewind and go back to your childhood to try to understand what you were like when you were younger. You grew up in western New York. Tell me what was your upbringing like and can you share more about your cultural background and how maybe that shaped you?
- [14:17]
B
Wow. Rough, tough, buff. I am from Buffalo, New York. It's a very Midwestern vibe, I think now I live in the Midwest again. And I grew up in very much what would be a classic middle class suburban. My parents moved to that suburb, as many parents do, to do the very best they could getting their kids into a school district that had the best public school that was available and that they could afford. And part of that is because education has always been so important to my parents. Education has always been very important in my family culture because my father emigrated to this country from Panama in his 20s. He actually came as a college student was the first time he came to the United States. And he came to a school that was in New Orleans, Louisiana, called Xavier University. At that time. When he came to the United States, it was the late 50s and the United States was still segregated. My father is Latino, but he was. He's like kind of, I say, Denzel Washington's face, complexion like a chocolate Hershey bar. And so he was a black man coming into the segregated US into the segregated South. That's where he met My mom. My mom is a native New Orleanian. She is a very remarkable person in her own right. You know, the backstory that my mom was actually a NASA hidden figure, something that I didn't actually learn until I was a mom myself. But that's whole story for another day.
- [15:43]
A
So amazing. Yes, so amazing.
- [15:45]
B
And both my parents are PhDs. They continued to pursue education at every stage of their life because having grown up in a segregated culture, they strongly felt that education is the thing no one can take away from you. And I think a lot of people who come from immigrant stories, we know that. We feel like hard work is something we can control. Education is something we can have that no one can take away. So they emphasize education very much, which is why they wanted to make sure my brother and I had the best public school we could. In my spare time, I loved two things. I loved playing outside in the yard and I loved dance. I learned that I love dance actually by starting in gymnastics. So I started in gymnastics as a three year old. I think I like to tumble around the house. And my mom used to watch that Jack LaLanne exercise show on TV.
- [16:37]
A
Oh, yes.
- [16:38]
B
She would get her chair out in the living room and do the high leg kicks and stuff. And I would always get a little chair out and do the kicks with her. So I think she was like, please get this girl out of the house. Let's get her into some gymnastics. And the gymnastics teacher was the one who said, your daughter is quite special and I think you should put her in ballet class. So I started ballet actually when I was three and a half. Most studios don't want to start you that young, but this studio made an exception.
- [17:01]
A
I started dancing when I was three as well because I was dancing around and my parents were like, yeah, we need to put her in dance classes. So another parallel from our childhood, and I totally agree about immigrant families. You know, my parents are originally from China and they both came to the United States for their education and really focused on that for my sister and I as well. And it's benefited us. You've had a very diverse career. After graduating from Princeton with a degree in ecology and evolutionary biology, you worked at the Nature Conservancy and then for Senator Carol Moseley Braun before pivoting to the business world. Talk us through your career transitions and what led you to work for over 20 years at General Mills, followed by Amazon. How did you choreograph your career?
- [17:47]
B
Well, I think if I'm honest, I would have to say my career is More improv than a lot of great, well rehearsed choreography. There was a lot that was being made up as it went along and not sure exactly where it was going to go. So I told you that one of my favorite things to do was to play outside in my, in my yard. And I really kind of had this bond with the nature that I could see in my own environment. And when we were growing up in the 70s and the 80s, there was a lot of messaging around air pollution, the hole in the ozone layer. I just had this, this thought that maybe the way I can have impact in the world and, you know, leave the place better than I found it, which was something that my parents had instilled in us, was to study ecology and see how I could come out and help the planet and the environment. That was my thought as a young person. And so my first job out of college allowed me that opportunity to work for the Nature Conservancy, which I admire their work so much. I think they are truly one of the best environmental stewardship organizations in the world and in the United States. They do a lot on water tables and land management and trying to keep spaces sustainable. So I got that job. And that was in part because Princeton had set up an internship program in the city of Chicago where they asked nonprofits and public service organizations to just take, just take one Princeton graduate, please to take one little grad. And Princeton would match the salary halfway. It was called the Princeton Project 55 program. I think it might be called Alumni Corps now. And there were a lot of AmeriCorps organizations who were willing to take one Princeton grad. So the Nature Conservancy took me on, but that was only a one year fellowship. After that fellowship was ending, I needed to look and find another place for the next step of my career. When a woman had just been elected who broke all records in all history in the United States, Carol Moseley Braun, you mentioned her. Senator Moseley Braun was the very first black female United States senator in the history of the United States. So it wasn't until the 90s that a black woman was ever in the US Senate when I had the opportunity to interview with her, which was again something that came about because I established a nice network of mentors in Chicago. And one heard about the senator looking for folks. And so when I got the chance to go to my job interview with the senator, I was first of all a nervous wreck. I was a basket case because to me now, Beyonce probably wasn't even born yet. There was no Beyonce. But if there was a Beyonce, she would have been my Beyonce. I mean, I was just like, what a history maker. I can't even believe I'm in the same room with this lady. So I interviewed with her. I actually tripped and fell on my way into the interview with her, and I think she was just like, oh, somebody calm this girl down. Like, wow. And so I had that job. And one of the things that was so important about having a job like that early is this idea that you do need to see yourself in leadership. Sometimes somebody has to be that barrier breaker that gives you the clue that it is possible for you to fit into that space. I had that experience in dance, actually, when I was a little kid at my ballet studio in a very suburban Western New York neighborhood. Most everybody in my ballet class. You remember back then, we used to be called bun heads. We were running a little.
- [21:13]
A
Absolutely, yes.
- [21:14]
B
Tights and our black leotards and our bun on top. And so my school had this incredible connection with New York City Ballet because my teacher, Ms. Maris, had studied at some of the New York City Ballet programs. So in the summer, sometimes she could bring somebody from the New York City Ballet to teach us class. One summer, she brought an absolute icon and barrier breaker in the world of dance. His name is Arthur Mitchell. He was the first black principal dancer in the history of the New York City Ballet. And he then went on to found the Dance Theater of Harlem so that there would be a dance space that was actually fit people like us who just didn't fit the European aesthetic of dance. And Mr. Mitchell came and taught us summer class. And do you remember what a big deal it was? There's two big milestones in your dance career. One, getting your A, permission and approval to be on pointe and use pointe shoes. And two, I don't know if it was like this in your studio when you finally get to learn partnering. Yes, and that was a big milestone at our studio when you really were important enough and ready in your career to really learn partnering. And my very first ballet partner, Mr. Mitchell, came and taught, and he pulled me up to the front of the class to demonstrate something, and he had me do a jete into his arms. And I just never forgot how special I felt having someone who looked like me be my first ballet partner, you know, so these moments that I've had really gave me enough fuel to keep me charged up on the ups and downs of a career. You know, after working in public service for a few years outside of after graduating from Princeton, I decided I Thought I would have even better career impact if I went into the corporate sector. So that's why I say I don't know if it was all very well planned.
- [23:02]
A
It.
- [23:02]
B
It was a lot of improv. But after being in government and nonprofit for a while, I really wanted to try my hand at the corporate sector. To make that pivot, I had to go to business school. And you and I both know a lot about trying to change how the world perceives you. And sometimes you have to get that stripe of credibility. And for us, I think our MBAs were that stripe of credibility that led to the pivot to get into corporate.
- [23:27]
A
How incredible that you were able to meet and actually dance with Arthur Mitchell, you know, under his tutelage. That's super impressive and I'm sure made a huge impact on you. And then I want to pick up on a couple of the things that you brought up. So the first is actually being able to see people like yourself and how inspiring that is. And Marian Wright Edelman, former president of the Children's Defense Fund, once said, you can't be what you can't see. You can't be what you can't see. And when you were named CEO of the Honest Company, you became one of the only afro latine CEOs of a publicly traded company. So you are now a barrier breaker and are paving away and serving as a visible role model for so many others. What are some of the barriers that you faced as a woman of color stepping into such a big role where there haven't been as many role models before you? Can you talk about some of those barriers and bias that you may have faced? And how did you gain the confidence to overcome those?
- [24:31]
B
Lately I've been thinking about how looking physically different, looking visibly different, separates me from others, both for the positive and for the challenge. You and I both, we grew up in places where maybe even in our friendship groups, not a lot of people look like us. And so maybe our parents tried to find ways to enrich us and expose us to things outside of school or outside of the neighborhood where we could find people who had a similar background or who at least looked, even looked like us physically, so we could somehow internally develop that sense of belonging and self confidence. And the ability to thrive in environments where you don't look like others is also a real skill and sometimes quite an advantage. Because as you and I know as business builders, one of the things that every company is looking for all the time is someone with a new idea, someone who can see the future in A way that hasn't been tapped yet. So that can be something differentiated for a company or a product to really go after. And by being people who've always had to see that duality in life and maybe see subtext that others don't. Sometimes it's a superpower we have, and it's so innate in us because it's just so habituated that it comes naturally. That is why I love having a board with lots of different perspectives on it, because your superpowers are really tied to your origin story. And so sometimes I think being different means that I'm resilient in corporate America, or I'm used to people not expecting my stuff to be, you know, whatever, as outstanding. But that can also be daunting and heavy to carry. I have had the experience many times where if my team that I'm leading is with an outside party. So when I was back at General Mills and I was president of the Natural and Organic Operating Unit, we would go to Washington, D.C. to go on the Hill to talk about policy related to organic products, policy related to farming. And we'd have to go to representatives that had constituents that were involved somehow in our sector industry. So we'd go. Sometimes we'd go to these offices, and I'd go with my own organization where I was the boss, and maybe my head scientist was there, or maybe my head policy person was there. And often I walk in those rooms and no one starts talking to me, assuming I'm the boss of the room. I've even had that in my own corporate headquarters. If we've had a person come visit from outside now. Not now, because now I'm the CEO and people research that before they come talk to me. But in other roles where I might be sitting at a boardroom table with a guest or a visitor, and they will look at the men on my team, they will look at the white people on my team, and it won't dawn on them till somewhere in the course of the meeting, by the way my leaders are speaking, that in fact, I'm at the head of the table. So I've gotten used to that. I also think that there's this thing that I often experience when I start a new job, a new role. Even if I was at General Mills and I was getting promoted to a new level, I feel like there was sometimes this sense of she's guilty until proven innocent. We don't know if she's good enough to do this job until she does a good job. Doing the job versus walking into the Job with some initial gravitas and credibility. I think we get so used to it that we pick up on it quite quickly, and it makes us resilient, but it is tiring. And, Elise, I have to say that it's one of the reasons why you need your friends. Right. And so you and I have. We have been friends through so much, through ups and downs and through cheering each other on and, like, getting the tips, sharing them with each other. You got to have that tech stream, that group chat that is there for you during those heavy days.
- [28:21]
A
Thank you for sharing that. First of all, Carla, I think there is a lot of unconscious bias, a lot of assumptions that are made that you're right. We kind of get used to and we work harder, we become resilient, and we fight our way through it. But not everybody has to face that same sort of hidden. I like to call them hidden barriers. Yeah. It's so interesting to me that our close friend group from the dance company at Princeton, we're actually really diverse. So somehow I think we were all drawn to each other at the time. But in addition to you and me, we have our friend Michelle, who's Filipina, and Christina, who's Puerto Rican, and then Marilyn, who is our classic wasp.
- [29:02]
B
Yeah, but she's our diversity. She's our dei.
- [29:06]
A
Yes. As a. As a group, though, we're quite diverse and have stayed very close over the years, particularly during the pandemic. I think we reconnected, which I really appreciated.
- [29:15]
B
You know what I think is so important about that? Like this culture in the United States. We've been through a lot. We've been through a lot of eras, the decades and everything, and there. And sometimes we're in periods where it can seem like people are more torn apart and different and divided. And what I love about a beautiful group of friends connected by common bonds and by love, is that it is an important reference for us to always remember how to see the heart and the humanity in people, even when that's not kind of what's ping ponging at us from society.
- [29:49]
A
Yeah, very wise. So I want to build on that because you have developed. I don't know if it's an alter ego, but basically you provide advice online as the sitco, your sister in the corner office. So tell us more about that. How did you come up with this idea? I think it's brilliant, by the way, because I think people look to you as a role model, and it's a way for you to provide advice, given your immense experience and all the challenges that you've overcome.
- [30:20]
B
When I first took the CEO job, well, even before I took it, when I was given the offer and I was being hired into the CEO job of the honest company, one of the things I talked to the sitting board and the the board chair about was the fact that I am different than other public company CEOs because I'm very active on social media. And I always have been, I think, since the dawn of social media, because I'm a brand builder and a marketer. I've always thought the technologies of social media and the ways in which social media are the new media for the new generations. I always wanted to play around. So I think I've every new social media thing that dawned or launched, I showed up there with my first brand. Mark Carla inspired who's me in my own voice and in my own real life, just trying to make sure I play around with social media. And that's not what you always see public company CEOs do. Public company CEOs can have very processed messages. There's a lot of risk at stake. But one of the things I thought that was unique about this very special brand, this is a new era, a new consumer packaged goods company for the new era, is they should have a new kind of CEO for the new era. And so I think the board was comfortable with that because they thought that feels like that fits hand in glove. One of the things that dawned on me in the time when we were all home during the pandemic era and we were on our computers all the time, people were so much incoming outgoing messaging was flowing into people's minds about that crisis. Then George Floyd was murdered. And I live in the Twin Cities, in Minneapolis St. Paul. So it was very much in the cultural flow here. People were very emotional and things, a lot of things were on people's minds at that time, reconciling with how to care for the health of their loved ones and their family, how to think about what we were seeing as we thought about how we deal with race in America, that I found that what something you and I are both very comfortable in because we've grown up in suburbs where we were in the minority and it was predominantly white and we've gone to school and we've worked in corporate America in places that are predominantly white, was that we have a real comfort, a native language of an ability to understand white people and understand also not white people and not white experiences. So I stepped in first with the concept of having a very candid, tough love voice saying Things that people needed to hear in that difficult time that I knew in my wisdom and experience as a person of color that they might not know, but they need to hear. And so I invented a nom de plume and a version of myself and alter ego that is that tough love voice that's going to tell you things that are loving, that come because I care about you, but that might not be easy to hear. And I gave her a name. Your sister in the corner office. I think the corner office is a metaphor for someone who has been there, someone who's already achieved successful success. And so their words come with weight. And I just thought that that would be a way that I could talk to people on social media and provide perspective. It turned out that as we then tried to figure out, are we going back to offices or aren't we going back to offices? Is it hybrid work? Is it zoom meetings that I realized, people also were not around their mentors and they were not walking the corporate halls and sitting in meetings where you and I know we've gone to that annual planning meeting where first we were the associate brand manager and maybe we were on that seat on the outer wall, and then maybe we were the brand manager and that presentation was ours and we worked it and we were so nervous and we were at the table, but we wanted to make our boss look good. All those things you learn in the room and the things that when you're walking down the hall after the meeting that some leader pulls you aside and says, great job, but next time you're going to want to modify this thing that you did or make a quarter turn on that other way you presented the material. We now have people working at home with look around, nobody to bump into in the hall to give you that wisdom. So I realized that your sister in the corner office could pivot in this era to be that, that wise experience voice who wants to show you the ways of the work world that you maybe need to learn on your journey that people don't have five days a week anymore.
- [34:42]
A
I love that. And I know you've become very popular or as the sister in the corner office, and I believe you were just on a panel or gave a talk at Afrotech about this hybrid work model. Can you just give an example of what's some of the advice, the type of advice that you give?
- [34:59]
B
One of the pieces of advice that I love to give from your sitco, your sister in the corner office, is eat your vegetables first. So people in their careers sometimes want to work on the stuff that they love and they don't want to maybe build the foundation of things that they aren't good at. For me, as an example, accounting principles. So I'm a CEO, I need to understand accounting principles. I did take accounting in business school, but I can't say that I did that well in it. And so I now need to go and make sure that before I get to work on brand building and look at great advertising and packaging, that I first finish my vegetables. I do the part that is good for me and healthy for me and maybe not as fun or delicious. And so I did a post a couple years back that was all about that, encouraging people, please remember, you do need to eat your vegetables.
- [35:55]
A
Yeah, that's a great example. And for me, as an English major and then a dancer, when I went into business, or actually before I even went into business, I realized I actually needed to go to business school to just learn what don't I know. And that that really helped me pivot into business. And then once I got into the marketing role, everybody has to learn how to do forecast testing and nobody likes to do it, but it's so critical. And I think it teaches you things about those cross functional roles and partners that you're going to be working with and gives you a broader understanding of the business. So, yeah, tough love. I love it.
- [36:29]
B
Yeah, tough love. This week was a little bit of a lighter topic. My tough love this week was, hey, everybody was working from home. Please go descale your coffee machine because it's probably been flashing a light at you for a long time saying, time to descale. So, you know, sometimes she goes high, sometimes it's not that deep.
- [36:46]
A
So I want to pick up on a thread that you touched on before when I asked you about how did you choreograph your career and you said, oh, no, I think it was mostly improv. I love that because that's actually what I want to promote to people, is that you really can't plan out your whole career. You know, I've attended some courses where they're like, think about where you want to be in the next 10 years and then map out the plan and you're going to get there. Conceptually, it makes a lot of sense to set that big dream and that goal of what you're working towards. But I strongly believe that how you get there, you need to experiment. And we both work at tech companies. You need to play around, you need to test, you need to learn about it. And through that experimentation, you will find your way So I love that you brought up improv, because choreographing your career and choreographing a dance actually requires you to improvise, to play around. And you don't necessarily know what the dance is going to look like before you start choreographing it. So I just wanted to pick up on that. Can you talk more, though, about your dance background and are there things that you learned from dancing that you feel you use today in business or that you apply in leadership?
- [37:57]
B
Well, I love that you did a double click for us on this idea of before you know what a dance looks like, you have to play around for a bit. Because I think for people who have never been in a dance studio as a dancer or a creator, they might not know what that looks like. And you are a professional dancer with a really frame breaking artist. And there's so much that happens in that studio that is just truly playing around, trying things out, moving in the space before you put it together. But it all lives on a foundation of having practiced, practice, practiced the fundamentals. It's not like the first day you ever dance your improvise. So I love that sense of the way dance has a team's team aspect. Even when a choreographer is playing around, sometimes they, what we call, they have to try it out on someone's bodies, right? They have to play around with it in space and not only on themselves. And so I think that showing up in a room with other leaders, I sometimes have to tell my team, hey, I'm just kind of making this up for the first time. I'm spitballing. Don't take this too seriously right now. But here's some thoughts I'm having. The higher you go, the more you have to be very clear. Are you giving direction or are you just brainstorming? So I think that that's a cool way in which improvisation comes into the corporate work world. But if I'm really vulnerable, Elisa, I would say one of the difficult things about dance is there's a whole lot of rejection involved in dance and there's a whole lot of comparing yourself to others. First of all, you exist in a room surrounded by mirrors, so you are constantly grading and rating yourself. That has its challenges. You are, if you're in a ballet corps, as we call it, which for people who aren't too familiar, if you imagine something like the Radio City Rockette and the way in which they need to be one uniform, almost organism, there's a notion that even though you're in a room full of different people. You sometimes have to be very coordinated. A lot of times I tell people I think Janet Jackson would have made a great CEO based on the Rhythm Nation video because she figured a way to get her team to work in absolute unison on a shared goal. The choreography in that video, it's, you know, iconic. One of the top five pieces of pop choreography of all times. But the real heartbreak is that sometimes you go for something and you don't get it and maybe your friends do. And we've had those moments. So for us, when we were serious dancers, that sometimes meant we were auditioning for programs at the very well regarded professional top tier dance companies. Whether you wanted to get an audition to be accepted into their summer school program or into their performance of the Nutcracker that year, if it was touring in your city, you had to go to auditions. And it's very vulnerable feeling because you're going to be judged. And for me, many times I was not the best dancer in my company and so I would get the no, I. People can now think of American Idol or something like, you're going home today, you know, I would get rejected in those auditions while other classmates of mine were moving forward and moving up. And one of the things that my parents taught me was my dad was often the carpool driving dad. That was one thing he could contribute to the dance whole dance program. So sometimes we had a car full of girls who'd done very well and me in the car and I hadn't done well. And was I embarrassed and ashamed to my dad or was I embarrassed and ashamed to my friends? A lot of stuff I had to work through that reminded me when I was in my first class of associate marketing managers at General Mills and other people got promoted to marketing manager, which was our first big move in consumer packaged goods. I was actually the last person in my class promoted from associate marketing manager to marketing manager. And you're watching them get plucked off one by one. And it's like the kickball team. When you don't get picked and you're that last person, you have to really learn how to deal with that.
- [42:11]
A
And it hurts every time. But I agree with you that as dancers we fail a lot. Even just learning a new piece, you have to experiment and fall down and get back up. But there are a lot of rejections because there aren't that many spots to get those competitive roles.
- [42:28]
B
When you say as dancers we failed a lot, I think it reminds me so much of learning how to do a great pirouette and then Learning how to do a great double turn. It's like you fall more than you ever do a great pirouette until you finally figure it out. But if you don't give yourself the opportunity to fall and fall and fall and fall, you won't get a great pirouette.
- [42:50]
A
That's right. That's right. So you mentioned a couple things. You mentioned I worked with a groundbreaking choreographer. I just wanted to mention that's Ralph Lemon. He actually has a show right now at MoMA PS1, so I'm going to go see that in a couple of weeks. So it's a retrospective of all his works. If you get to New York City, you should go see that. And then you also mentioned the Rockettes, so I don't know if you did that on purpose, but my son Liam, who is a hip hop dancer now in New York City, his girlfriend is a Rockette, Caitlin Marks. So they'll be thrilled that I mention.
- [43:20]
B
Them on the categories. Caitlyn and Liam, Aunt Carla's out here ready to see you guys dancing.
- [43:27]
A
So, talking about kids, your son Jay is a freshman at Tulane, and your daughter Charlie is in high school. I know you love them so much, as do I, and you try to be there for them as much as you can, but you are a CEO of a publicly traded company. As we talked about before, for other working moms out there, how do you manage your many priorities?
- [43:49]
B
Well, I grew up with a working mom, so who is absolutely a hero to me. And no moss grows under that stone. She is a rolling stone. My mom is a. She just had her birthday. She's 83, and she has timeshare in Las Vegas, and she loves to travel by herself. And she is far more social and energized than I am.
- [44:14]
A
Happy birthday, Cynthia.
- [44:15]
B
Happy birthday. She hates when we make it about her, but anyway, we're still going to do it. When I was growing up, my parents each took different turns working towards getting their PhDs. So they got their PhDs while working and raising children. First, my dad got his PhD in mathematics education. When he completed that, my mom decided she wanted to get her PhD in microbiology. She did that. I was probably somewhere in that middle school or maybe high school range because my mom graduated with her PhD when I was in college. And so I saw firsthand a model of a parent who had a lot of obligations around the clock, something that she was passionate about for herself as an individual outside of the family. And also it meant that she expected us to be independent from a very early age. There was a freezer full of Totino's pizza rolls and other things you could heat up. And so I knew my way around a microwave and around cooking some macaroni and cheese on the stove. And I never felt bad about it because I was so proud of her. And I still am. And it's not a perfect thing. I have to make sure that in my role as CEO, I put on the calendar well in advance. Anything that's going to be very important where I want my kids to know I was there. You are the most important thing in my life. And I want you to be supported or I want to be with you on your toughest days. And so we do a lot. The calendar is the boss. And my kids know that. But it's amazing because my son Jay in 12th grade got one of those assignments where you had to write a thank you, you note is in a writing class that he was in. And you had to pick somebody who didn't know that you were going to send them a thank you note. And I still have it to this day. It was incredible what in his own words he told me he saw me doing as a leader and as a values centered leader and member of our community. And what it set in his own mind about what he thinks is possible. So I think, I don't, I don't know if any of us has it perfect. We are kind of working an experiment and improvising as parents. You do it, it's the first time you're doing it. But I do know at this point two things, two things. We make every career decision as a family. So I always check in. Even when the kids were little, it was like, mom's going to have to travel a lot. This is what this is going to mean. Are you okay with that? And then two, I think that, that children have so much potential inside of them that this encouraging their independence at an early stage in life actually helps them find their own assets.
- [47:09]
A
That's great. And Jay and Charlie are amazing human beings. And we have to give a shout out to Jason, your husband as well.
- [47:17]
B
Husbands. We both have solid as a rock salt to the earth husbands. And I think we have to because who can handle this?
- [47:25]
A
This is true. This is true. Carla, for our final question, what advice would you give to your younger self about navigating your career while staying true to yourself?
- [47:37]
B
I always feel like she did a pretty damn good job. So I feel like I don't know if she needs advice from me because that was one real resilient and effervescent young person, young lady. I would tell her it maybe isn't advice, but I would say that life has more wonderful surprises for you. So just stick with it. Give everything all you've got, including your friendships, because in the end, your friendships will outlast everything.
- [48:14]
A
Love it. Love it. So, Carla, it's always a blast to be with you, and I've loved hearing about your leadership dance, and I think I even learned some things about you that I didn't know before. You are truly breaking barriers and inspiring so many in corporate America, and I want to thank you and applaud you on the stage for being who you are. Thank you so much for joining me.
- [48:38]
B
Everyone can't see my sex legacy.
- [48:39]
A
Yes. Yes. Signature move. Thank you for being with me.
- [48:45]
B
Thank you so much. I love it. So fun.
- [48:48]
A
Like follow and Share the leadership Dance, where we explore how to choreograph the career of your dreams and chat with visionary leaders who are breaking barriers in the arts and business worlds. Until next time, keep dancing.