← The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk
The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk
606: Jack Carr - Writing Thrillers (The Terminal List), Working with Chris Pratt, Fighting Wars as a Navy SEAL, Putting In The Work, & Never Missing an Opportunity To Make Someone's Day
00:50:41
Go to www.LearningLeader.com for full Show Notes. Jack Carr is a former Navy SEAL who for 20 years led special operations teams as a Team Leader, Platoon Commander, Troop Commander, and Task Unit Commander. Jack is also the #1 New York Times Best Selling
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- [00:00]
Jack Carr
Put in the work. If you don't put in the work, it's not going to happen. That I can guarantee.
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Ryan Hawk
Jack Carr, a former Navy SEAL turned bestselling thriller writer.
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Jack Carr
He goes full force into everything he does.
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Ryan Hawk
What are the qualities in somebody to become a SEAL and then to be.
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Jack Carr
A leader amongst leaders just like anything else in life. Trust up and down the chain of command. Never miss an opportunity to make somebody's day. I grew up surrounded by books and a love of reading that I got to read all these books just for the magic in those pages. No ulterior motive. When I got to writing, it wasn't a question of can I do this? I already knew I had that just in me with the books. I want the next book to be better than this one. I was focused on being the best leader and the best operator that I could possibly be. You have to be ready to make these split second decisions that are going to affect everyone around you for the rest of their lives.
- [00:51]
Ryan Hawk
Welcome to the Learning Leaders show presented by Insight Global. I am your host, Ryan Hawk. Thank you so much for being here. Text Hawk to 66 8. To become part of Mindful Monday, you, along with tens of thousands of other learning leaders from all over the world will receive a carefully curated email from me each Monday morning to help you start your week off right. You'll also receive details about how our book the Score that Matters, will help you become a more effective leader. Text Hawk to 66866. Now on to tonight's featured leader. American hero Jack Carr is a former Navy who for 20 years led special operations teams as a team leader, platoon commander, troop commander and task unit commander. Jack is also the number one New York Times bestselling author of eight books. And his debut novel, the Terminal List was adapted into the number one Amazon prime video series starring Chris Pratt.
- [02:00]
Jack Carr
Wow.
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Ryan Hawk
During this conversation we discussed how a love of reading impacted Jack as a Navy SEAL and a leader. Then the four attributes that make a great Navy SEAL and leader outside of the seals. Then Jack shares how to build trust with your team. Really good part. And then he finishes with a piece of advice that will change your life. Ladies and gentlemen, please enjoy my conversation with American hero Jack Carr. So I'm reading that when you grew up hoping to be two things, a Navy SEAL and an author, where did that come from? How does somebody who's little know they want to grow up to be a Navy SEAL and an author?
- [02:50]
Jack Carr
Yeah, well, I think the, the military part was just in my blood. From an early age, I'M sure there was, there was a lot of influence from popular culture, but my grandfather was killed in World War II, so I grew up with his medals, pictures of him and his squadron. He flew a plane called the Corsair is a plane that had the gold wings that folded up so it fit on aircraft carriers. I had his, he was a Marine Corps aviator, so I had his, his, his wings, all those things. And there was a show on TV called Black Sheep Squadron and with Robert Conrad playing Pappy Boynton back then I caught it in syndication in the early 80s with my dad. But because my dad never knew his, his father, that was kind of the connection to that generation was through popular culture, movies and TV shows and books. Because there wasn't a Facebook, you couldn't go to the old squadron Facebook page where people could up with what was going on. Obviously that didn't happen. People came back from that war and got to work building this country into what it is today. So, so popular culture I am sure played a role, but it was also just in my blood and I think it's in all of our DNA. Because really from the beginning of time there have been these prerequisites in place. Before you could join the tribe or the community, you had to prove that you could add value to that tribe or community. And if you couldn't do that, well, then you were shunned because your tribe would not be around much longer if you weren't good at the hunting, weren't good at the fight, couldn't add value in some way, shape or form to that growing civilization and society. So I think there's this thing in all of us which is kind of where that draw comes from. Probably in high school for most people, let's say between ages like 13 and 20, somewhere in there and you feel a need to test yourself some way because you used to have to do that. It was built in to your progression as a, as a human. That's why I think Marine Corps boot camp is such a draw. That's something that people are drawn to. But really any of the boot camps or any of the special operations training pipelines like SEAL training, which is called BUDS qcort, which is for Army Special Forces Ranger School, I think there's a draw to that sort of thing in general. But. So I was going in the military, I was, I was my earliest memories, I knew that was what I was going to do. And then I found out what seals were at age 7. So through old black and white film, once again, power of popular culture called the Frogman. And I used to be able to go to this one channel on Sundays because there was like the three big channels, abc, cbs, NBC, and there was the one outlier channel. And for those of us who grew up, 70s, 80s, you were the remote control back then. So when my dad was watching football on Sundays, when there was a commercial, I could run up to the TV and turn it to that one outlier channel that would always have some sort of a war movie on Sundays. So I get to watch it. My dad would look at his watch like 2 minutes or 2 minutes and 30 seconds, whatever commercials were back then. Then I'd have to run back and flip it back to football. But one of the movies they were playing was the Frogman. And so I asked him what the Frogmen were, and he said, ask your mother. My mom was a librarian, so I grew up surrounded by books and a love of read. So we went down to the local library and did some research. And my takeaway back then, because there wasn't much you could find the end of the Internet back then when it came to special operations. And my takeaways were that seals were some of the most elite operators in the world and that the training was some of the toughest ever devised by modern military. So age 7, they had me. I was in and about age 10, I start to make that transition from young adult fiction, like the Farley Mowat type stuff, and then into the kind of books that my parents were reading. That's when Hunt for October came out. And then certainly by sixth grade, I am reading only the kind of books that my parents are reading at that level, the same that kind that I read and write today. And what I didn't realize at the time was that I'm getting an education in the art of storytelling from the masters, because I am reading Tom Clancy and Nelson DeMille and David Morrell and A.J. quinnell and J.C. pollock and Mark Olden and Louis Lamour. So I'm reading fiction, I'm reading nonfiction because I'm a student of history and I want to know everything I possibly can about warfare. So I'm reading any books that I can find on those things. And then when magazines cross our kitchen table, like typ, typically time and Newsweek, and I think later U.S. news and World Report. But anything that had anything to do with warfare on those covers, I would just devour it. News in the evening, six o' clock news, we'd watch that as a family and. And then the newspaper, daily newspaper, I'd get it after My dad, when he went to the sports section, and I'd look through, oh, Falkland Islands, war. Oh, my gosh, what's going on here? Even before that 1979 Iranian hostage crisis, I distinctly remember that. So I've always been a student, really, of all that I do. But it was during that time frame, seven, I knew I wanted to be a seal. And then sixth grade, certainly that was when I decided that I wanted an author after my time in uniform. And there was a short story we read in sixth grade called the Most Dangerous Game. I think they still teach it today in some schools. But I told myself back in sixth grade that one day I'd write a thriller that paid tribute to that short story. And that was my third book, Savage Son. So I've known my. My path in life from a very early age, and I think that was. That was very helpful because at a time when I didn't have those other worries and I was reading them simply for the magic in those pages. No ulterior motive. Not like I'm going to read that I can in the future. No, it's just like, I'm enjoying these stories, and one day I'll do this as well. And there's a difference in that mindset. And I don't think there's anything I could have done differently to better prepare me either for the SEAL teams or for what I'm doing now.
- [08:01]
Ryan Hawk
It's amazing how the material can stick with you if you're reading in just this place of pleasure. As you said, reading for the magic in those pages. I love that mentality. As opposed to saying, oh, my God, what can I use? What can I use? What can I use? Like, having this kind of. Because I have that. I know, like, from preparing for this podcast. I get in that mode at times where I'm like, okay, what could I use for the podcast? As opposed to those moments when you're just reading for the magic in those pages, it feels like it's six. It sinks in. And you did that for decades, which then has led you to where you are now.
- [08:36]
Jack Carr
Yeah. And that's one of the reasons I started this book club podcast this summer and this book club section of my website, because we tip, just like you. If I'm preparing for a podcast, guess I'm reading their book with something in mind. Like, what questions should I ask? You know, boom, boom, boom. So I have. I'm driven to do that. Not for the enjoyment of it, but because I'm preparing for that guest. Or if I'm doing Research for one of my novels. Well, same thing. I'm doing research. I'm trying to find out. Okay, I need to corroborate this with another author over here, another researcher over here. Okay, what journal do I need? Who can I talk to to find out where we are currently with all this? So once again, not for. Not for pleasure. And I heard someone ask Lee Child about what he was looking most forward to about retirement. He turned the Jack Reacher series over to his brother to continue that series. And he said, reading for pleasure again. And I totally understand now. And also other books I get for blurbs. So people send me books for blurbs all the time. And I try to do as many as I can, but once again, that's reading not for pleasure. It's just like I gotta. I want to get through this so I can give this person a blurb so I can. I can get it to them in time to make the COVID or whatever they've asked me to. To do. So there's a. There's an end state in mind. So I started the PODC podcast to give me one book a month that I sit down. Phones, computers are another room. I just sit in a chair. I have a. My whiskey or my coffee or whatever I'm doing, and I just read it for that pure enjoyment like I used to have growing up. And then I have the author come on and we just talk about the book and some questions about how they got. So do what they're doing now and their process and that sort of thing, but also support independent bookstores. Because I have such great memories of going into independent bookstores with my mom, whether it was we're traveling or any libraries. So I have so many wonderful memories of being surrounded by books. And I want to support these independent bookstores. So I partner with a different one every month for one of these books where people can go and get a discount that's kind of like the one you'd get on Amazon. So it makes it a little harder to go to those stores. Maybe if you're already on Amazon, it can click that button, but it gives you a reason to go. Support independent bookstores. You get maybe a better discount depending on what Amazon's doing at the time, but you get to support those bookstores. Readers reading some of those bookstores are the cornerstones of their communities still to this day. There's a few things to it, but I want to create more readers, encourage reading. That's really been foundational to everything that I've done in life. But getting Back to the, the magic in the pages. It gives me one book a month that I'm not reading for research. I am not reading for a blurb, I'm not reading for a podcast guest. I'm simply reading it so that I can encourage other people to read generally and then specifically this book so that they can send in questions and I can ask those questions to the guest and it can be more of a community type thing.
- [11:08]
Ryan Hawk
I love it. Did you start writing in sixth grade?
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Jack Carr
I come from the fan perspective, so yes, I was always good at writing. I was always very good at the creative writing side back then, all throughout my, my life. So I look forward to those assignments. But I was the reader. So I come at it from the perspective of kind of like a Quentin Tarantino. If he's watching all these movies, well, he's building up throughout this entire life this foundation of film knowledge that is really unmatched by almost anyone in, in Hollywood, I would venture that guess. And if you've read his book, he has a book on cinema that came out, he has a podcast on it as well. And so you read that book, which I did, or you listen to that podcast, which I did, and it's. I forget how many episodes, but it's quite a few. And the level of knowledge, the depth of knowledge that he has not from going to film school but from watching movies as he grew up. Like I said, unsurpassed. So I think there's a similarity there in that I come at it from the reader's perspective and I also know the history of the genre because I was a part of it from the fan perspective starting back in the, in the, in the 80s, all the way up through today. But I also read some of the things on my parents shelves that had been there for 10, 15 years. So the, the Ludlam. So they hadn't been on the shelves as that, that long. The Ken Folletts, the Jean Le Carre, the Ian Flemings. So those were on my shelves as well as a kid, my parents shelves. So I had this foundation of historical knowledge because of that. And I can go back Most Dangerous Game, like I mentioned, it was written in 1924. Short story Rogue mail written on the eve of World War II, 1939. Then we moved into the post war era with, with Fleming and Le and the post war Britain through the eyes of. And then the really antithesis of that with what Jean Le Carre was doing with more of the moral ambiguity side of things and morally ambiguous side of things. So It's. So I had that all in there all already. So when I got to writing, it wasn't a question of, can I do this? I already knew I had that just in me from writing as a kid. Just school and then I had that it in me from knowing what I liked and what I didn't, from being a reader. So it's always all in there. And then that, plus the nonfiction that I'd done, the studying warfare, studying insurgencies, counterinsurgencies, terrorism, plus the practical application of that in Iraq and Afghanistan as a seal, all those things came kind of together at the right time and place as I was leaving the military. So once again, those three elements, they all came together and really allowed me to do what I'm doing now.
- [13:33]
Ryan Hawk
I don't know, it's like to be a seal. I mean, I just read the books and watched documentaries. Obviously, like, a lot like most of us. Were you writing? Were you keeping a journal? What was your writing practice and reading practice? I'm. I'm curious. In between times when you would go out, what were you doing in between those times?
- [13:51]
Jack Carr
Yeah, so I. I was always reading. I didn't keep a journal, even though I was. You know, my dad said you gotta. Gotta keep a journal. He wishes he had a journal from his dad, who was, like I mentioned, was killed in World War II, but I just didn't. Didn't make the time to do that downrange. Now I really wish that I had at least a little sketch of what we did kind of each day. Like, hey, nothing waiting around, waiting for an op to trigger or, you know, trained partner forces or, you know, whatever. Just so I had some record, like one sentence even that would have been. Would have been good. But. But I didn. So I wasn't practicing writing. I was focused on being the best leader and the best operator that I could possibly be. Which I didn't look at it like this at the time, but actually did help me. Did help prepare me for what I'm. I'm doing now. I was reading about terrorism. I was reading about Iraq. I was reading Afghanistan. I was preparing myself to go downrange. Constant preparation, because the goal is to be a better SEAL today than I was yesterday. So a better leader and operator today than I was yesterday. And that's the same thing with the books. I want the next book to be better than this one. People ask me what your favorite book is thus far, and it's always the one that I just finished. Because so far, anyway, they've all gotten Better. And that's just like in the teams I want to be get better each day. Same thing with as an author, I want to get better with each book. I want to get better with each sentence, each paragraph, each chapter. And that's always the goal. And thus far I think I've, I have done that. The last thriller, Red Sky Morning, that came out in June, that's, that's by far my favorite because I think I've improved. Which one should, if you're doing something, it should get better. Whatever you're doing that should, should, should be the goal, I think. Anyway, then this one's my first non fiction. So the next non fiction that comes out, I want that to be better than this one. But that's always, that's always the goal. So Downrange. Yeah. Instead of watching a movie if we had downtime or playing video games if we had a downtime, I was reading and typically downrange I both had the non fiction going and then I'd have some sort of fiction going as well. So I have a little bit of a reprieve from what was going on.
- [15:39]
Ryan Hawk
But what type of books would you read when you're in between? I mean, because you'd probably want some sort of an escape, right? Like what, what would you read in between? Going out?
- [15:51]
Jack Carr
Yes. By going out you mean different ops while you're interacting?
- [15:54]
Ryan Hawk
Yeah, yeah.
- [15:55]
Jack Carr
I always had a library. People knew that I took my, took books with me. I guess if I was part of the British Empire back in the day, I'd have people carrying a huge chat like a library with them, you know, big chunks of, chunks of books. And I'm not a Kindle person, so I need Kindle wasn't even around in the earlier days. But I just bring physical books with me on deployment, like ones that I, that I wanted to read. So I typically have a non fiction book going and this whole side is all non fiction. So one of these on, on warfare, on terrorism, current events, something along those lines. And then I bring the latest Daniel Silva or the latest Vince, those types of books as well. So I'd always have a thriller going at the same time because that's always been a part of my, my life as well. But like I said, there's a lot of, a lot of, like I weave a lot of history into my books naturally talk about a lot of my social media. And then some of these books like let's Stephen Hunter or whatever I'm reading at the time and Nelson DeMille, there's a lot of other contemporary thrillers for the most part. And they weave in sometimes history and sometimes it's just to support a character, part of a, part of dialogue or, or it could be very central to the story. It all, it all depends. But there is this history and that's why I think it's important to, to read both fiction and non. And now that I'm in the non fiction space, there are a lot of people that just read the non fiction and there, there's, there's definitely an element of that out there. So hopefully I can bridge the between fiction and non for people and introduce people that just read non fiction to the world of fiction and thrillers and then vice versa as well. People that just read the thrillers to step over into the non fiction and, and, and read something, read something about history.
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Ryan Hawk
I'm curious, Jack. From a Navy SEAL perspective, I've been very lucky and fortunate to speak with a few of them. General McChrystal and McRaven and Chris Fussel, his aide de camp, has been on a few times. Got to talk to these guys in person too. And it just blows my mind. But Jay Hennessey, 26 year Seal who works with the Cleveland Guardians. Now I love Jay here in Ohio. When you think about because the seals are just the best of the best, it's just another level regardless of who, it's just a complete another level. I'm curious man, what are the attributes, what are the qualities in somebody to become a SEAL and then to be a leader amongst leaders, the positions that you've been in where not only are you already the best of the best, but then you're leading the best of the best best. What's it take? What are some of the must have qualities to earn a position like that?
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Jack Carr
Yeah. So from, from my perspective, it's trust just like anything else in life. Trust up and down the chain of command. That was the one thing that I think that really, you know, if you call it successful or not, whatever allowed me to do what I did as a leader in the SEAL teams was because I had the trust of the guys below me. And that's based on, on character. And of course, if you see your character, your reputation takes care of itself. That's a lesson from Once an Eagle by Anton Meyer, book written back in 1968, which is really on leadership. It's historical. So that trust with the guys below you and you build that up by the decisions that you've made in the past. So they hear about that through your reputation in the Teams, which is really your currency, like I said, that's based on character. And then you continue to build that by doing the things that you don't have to do, maybe as you get up there in ranks. So you go out there and you continue to run the O course with the guys where you also get to know them and build up that trust or go on those runs or do that PT or hit that range. And you're practicing, you're working that sig and you're working that M4 and you're putting rounds down range and you're like, oh, man, look at that guy. He's, he's out shooting our, our, our, you know, our best shot. And he's, he's an officer type thing. So you got to get out there, maybe even if you're not the best, like you're close is when you're doing those sorts of things. But it also builds up that trust with those people you're taking down range. So always, always did that. But then just as important is building that trust up the chain of command as well, so that they give you freedom of maneuver on the battlefield so that you're not the problem child, you're not the problem platoon, the problem troop that has to be micromanaged or, or whatever else. So you build up this trust. So what you need to do downrange, so it's really about building trust up and down the chain of command. Now. I think at some point, like, I never had any leadership training in the teams. I just missed all of it. They started to professionalize it at some point, but I was already. I'd gone from enlisted to officer already and it was all just baptism by fire. But eventually, I think at some point we started to, we thought through what attributes are necessary to become a seal, and I think they started articulating those in buds, in SEAL training and maybe changing some of the training to try to filter for, for some of attributes. I'm not positive, but regardless, it's still cold, wet, tired, hungry, virgin, hypothermia during hell week. Like that stuff stays the same, I think anyway. But there were some things like physical courage, mental courage, team ability, resilience, and there's one other that's not coming to mind right now because I haven't thought of these in a long time. But they were, they were trying to recruit and then test for those in the pipeline. But that was just starting as I was leaving.
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Ryan Hawk
The ability to, I think, laugh together, cry together, do hard things together. That's how teams build Trust. I think the seals feel like you're really good at all of those things, right? And learn together, laugh together, do hard things together. And that's how you get tight and that's how you develop trust. By showing that I'm here shoulder to shoulder doing these tough things with you. I would just love to learn because you do it together in training, but then you do it for real when your life is on the line and you need each other in order to, to, to stay alive and to accomplish the mission. What did you learn from those experiences of laughing together, of crying together, of doing hard things together, standing shoulder to shoulder with your brothers, saying, I got you, you got me, let's go accomplish this mission?
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Jack Carr
Yeah. Well, we really work in the trade space of opportunity and capability. Those are the, the, that's where, where seals excel. And then to be able to operate in that kind of environment, it's all about AD really. A lot of people think of the military and they think of receiving orders and saluting and going off and running into a, you know, machine gun nest or something like, like that. And that wasn't my experience. You followed orders because you trusted that person in charge or not necessarily following orders. I don't think I've really thought of things in that having with in those terms ever. But having a creative discussions with people who have been through a crucible just like you. So you share this experience and you share it with people you didn't go through training with because it's the same training. So I share the experience of buds, of SEAL training with someone who went through in 1973, 1985, 1990 I, I and someone who's going to graduate tomorrow. We all have this shared experience called buds with his which gives us this foundation which also going back to early societies, having those crucibles also allowed you to have something in common with the oldest person in that society, the village elder, and then the newest person who's just stepping into his role as a warrior or a hunter, a protector or guardian down at this level and every, everyone in between. So you have that in common with all these guys that you're going downrange with. And really it's about creative problem solving, aggressive creative problem solving. And you're looking for gaps in the enemy's defenses. Yeah, you're looking how to capitalize on momentum. You're trying to put yourself in your enemy's shoes, trying to outthink them as far as how are they going to adapt to us. How do they adapt to the guys that were here before, what would be the next logical step in that progression of adaptability from the enemy's perspective, then how do I outthink them? How do I get inside their disposal decision making loop and adapt faster than they are? And as a leader, those are things that I'm constantly thinking about. But I'm taking input from everyone around me because in the SEAL teams in particular, and that's my only experience in the military, everyone's coming from such a diverse background that you're bringing, you have people that have never seen the ocean before that show up at buds, you have people that grew up in the mountains, people that grew up in the cities, but everybody's bringing this kind of, this different background that allows them to also, also be creative and be part of that team when it comes to solving these problems. So I think that really helped us when it came to conducting mission sets that maybe we weren't traditionally thought of or trained up for that sort of thing. Village stability operations in Afghanistan, when we started doing that one, moving well away from the water and maybe even doing inter Meraki Government official Executive protection, something we weren't trained up to do. And then we just figured it out and adapted essentially on the fly. But once again I think that's where we excel is in that creative problem solving being thrown into this mission set that maybe you're not prepared for, but stepping up and using all that training that you have and then all the training that your peers have, all those diverse backgrounds when it comes to creative and aggressive problem solving. And it's also something that I do on the page. But obviously if I mess up on the page, I can sleep on it, I can come back, I can edit, I don't need to make split second decisions, but it's still the same thing. I'm problem solving on the page, I'm aggressively solving problems on the page, but I don't have to worry about anyone coming home in a body bag if I mess it up. And I have time to go back and think about hey, how do I make this as good as I can possibly make it. Whereas downrange, you have to be ready to make these split second decisions that are going to affect everyone around you for the rest of their lives and their families. So you for me anyway, and this is another thing that I think I got from the power of popular culture. I didn't want to be that person that I'd seen in movies like sitting on the couch thinking about, about back then, back to Vietnam and what they could have done Differently to save the lives of their platoon. That was just like something that was part of TV and books and movies back then. It was the veterans struggling with decisions made in the past, looking for redemption, that sort of a thing. So I wanted to make sure that if I was ever in that position, that I knew that if I was sitting on that couch, I had done everything possible to prepare my. There's nothing. I didn't leave anything on the field. And I did everything possible to train myself up to be the best leader, best operator I possibly could, to make the best decisions possible under fire. So I didn't want to be thinking about that. But once again, I didn't get that from the military. I didn't get that from a mentor or anything like that. I got that from popular culture, from viewing these movies and reading these books. So I think that I. That I did that. I was always reading, always training, always figuring out how to be a better operator today than I was yesterday. And that's so that I wouldn't have to be in that position one day.
- [26:00]
Ryan Hawk
Yes. And making a little bit of a transition here, Jack. I thought it was cool when I saw that this was one is the new book. Okay. That I. I'm hearing from your team, and they're like, hey, we got a non fiction one coming. What do you think? Do you want to read? I'm like, of course I want to read. It's Jack Carr. So they sent me this big one, targeted Beirut. And I. And I just thought, wow, okay. And I'm getting into it, and you write it with a Pulitzer Prize finalist. So it's like you wisely partner with somebody who is really good, which is what I think great leaders do.
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Jack Carr
Right.
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Ryan Hawk
You partner with people, you work with those to either fill in gaps or lift you up in certain areas. And then you add your skill set and boom, you got something that's this awesome. So talk to me a little bit about what made you say out. Let's go non fiction. I want to start talking about this untold origin story of the war on terror from this awful moment in our history. But maybe not talked about enough or because I wasn't as aware until I saw your book on this and started reading about it, that this was. Was such a. A big part of our history.
- [27:04]
Jack Carr
Yeah. So history is. I've been a student of history my entire life. I weave it into the. The stories, into the. Into the thrillers. I talk about it on my social media. And I always knew that eventually I would diversify into the non Fiction space. So when I got to about, I guess it was three years ago now, maybe two and a half. But around there, when I thought I built up enough capital, political capital, with Simon and Schuster to be able to make this next pitch, I wrote something out and. And told them I wanted to start writing books and do a series that looked at different terrorist events because that has been such a part of my experience and my. My own education over the years. Want to look at a different terrorist event with each book and really inhumanize that event. But capture also the strategic, the operational and the tactical lessons learned. That's the least that I can do as an author. We're not very good in this country at taking lessons of the past and applying them going forward as wisdom them, but the least I can do is capture them. So I wrote down between, let's say end of World War II up to the time that I pitched this about three years ago, about three pages of different terrorist events. And I kept coming back to Beirut 1983, because it was such a turning point in our relationship with the Middle East. The shadow of what happened there still looms large over our foreign policy. The enemy learned lessons from Beirut 1983 that they still apply today. It's a model model from back then that they're still following today, Iran specifically. And so I pitched it to Simon and Schuster. They loved it. And I said I wanted to work with a Pulitzer Prize finalist military historian, because if I make a mistake in a thriller, I can say, hey, it's fiction, but if you're telling a story like this, you have to get it right. There's no room for error. And they said, well, who do you want to work with? And I said, well, I want to work with this guy, James Scott, but I don't know anything about him. And I think I should have probably watched a YouTube video about him or something to get a feeling about how he was is as a person. But all I knew was the work. So he had five other. He has five other books, four on World War II. So it was all about the work. I just loved his work. And I thought, gosh, I had no idea if he would want be even be interested in. In working with me. So they said, I was on this call with my agent and publisher, and they said, well, who's his agent? And I looked in the acknowledgments or, you know, whatever it was, or maybe the author's note in the front, whatever it was. And I said, well, he's thanking this guy named John Glusman and my editor and publisher, Emily Bessler, she said, well, what she's like, that's my husband. He's. And so they connected us and we hit it off.
- [29:22]
Ryan Hawk
And.
- [29:23]
Jack Carr
And James is just such a good guy. And. And I wanted to make sure that I got this part right also, because you're telling someone's story who either survived the event and is still dealing with the emotional and in some cases, physical trauma of that day, or you're telling the story of someone who passed away and whose family sat an empty chair at that dinner table ever since events. And so that come. That comes with a lot of responsibility. And I wanted to get it out of the way of the story. That was from the very beginning, something James and I talked about, was that this isn't our story. This is their story. And we want to get out of the way of that and just have this story be told in the most thoughtful way that we possibly can. And we want to get it right. And so to have these guys trust us with this story and have families trust us, we. With boxes of letters and in some cases, audio tapes that they had made, some people that didn't. Didn't make it back, to have them trust us and have these veterans trust us with this story, it was humbling. Humbling. And it was an honor to do it.
- [30:22]
Ryan Hawk
So can you describe what happened on that day in 1983? The Marine Corps, I guess this is the greatest single day loss of life since the battle of Iwo Jima. Truck packed with explosives crashes into the headquarters barracks in Beirut, Lebanon. Can you. Can you go deeper on what happened?
- [30:37]
Jack Carr
Happened? Yeah. So we decided to start it in April of 1983 with the embassy bombing. And so there's an embassy bombing in April. The Marines are there as peacekeepers. They're. They're put in there as peacekeepers, prop up the. The government of. Of Lebanon. And they were just put in an untenable situation, tactically disadvantageous position, kind of like we saw once again at Abbey Gate in Afghanistan in August of 2021. A lot of similarities there. So they're put in this situation. And what I didn't realize when I started, especially as is fairly well in tune with different terrorist events, what happened between April and October. And it's just something that's not really talked about too much people, if people are aware that something happened in October of 1983 and that a lot of people lost their lives, a lot of Marines in particular, they know that, but fewer even know about the embassy bombing. Okay. That happened in, in April. And almost no one knows what happened between those dates and these Marines were in combat. And the reason that most people don't know about it, even if they're of an age where they, they might, where they, if they were interested in the news back during that time frame, because the administration is obviously before social media and independent media. The talking points were that these guys were not in combat and that. But there were casualties, people did die. And from the administration, it was. Well, was it indirect fire or direct fire? Well, sniper is pretty direct fire if you ask me. But they tried to keep it as these are peacekeepers there, they're not taking sides. And it was just an awful position for these guys to be in. So they took casualties throughout that summer. And then in October, the Iranian proxy group we now know as Hezbollah had learned lessons from April. And they crashed a truck into the Beirut, the Marines headquarters and barracks on a Sunday morning, which was the time when the, when everything was the most lax. Marines got to sleep in a little while longer. And it took this building, it. It took it all the way down. About 350 people were sleeping in the building at the time when, when the truck crashed into it detonates. And 241 will ultimately lose their lives, to say nothing of those that are. That were wounded. And it was just so, so it's, it sounds like obviously it is a very dark day, dark story, but there's hope in it. And also, I wasn't really aware of that until I got into the research as well, because what happens after that, something very similar to what happened at Abbey Gate in Afghanistan is those people that were blown off their feet or blown out the windows in the building that survived. They got up, they dusted themselves off and they started digging through that rubble with their bare hands with ca. Bar knives, maybe a shovel, maybe a crowbar, if they could find it in this race against time to rescue their brothers in arms. And the last person pulled from the rubble was five hours later, a chaplain, Danny Wheeler. And he was on the fourth floor, rode this thing down. And he was essentially saved by two walls of concrete that fell on top of him, but left just enough room for him to be able to breathe, but complete darkness, couldn't move anything. It's slowly crushing him as they're trying to dig him out. And he's thinking back as a chaplain, he' having this conversation with God, this argument with God. And he's also thinking back to Louis Lamour novels that he read and about mine cave ins and these like cowboys and miners having to dig themselves out and survive these different scenarios that Louis Lamour put them in in these novels. So the stories from that day of survival and of these guys who stood up to rescue their brothers in arms, two dentists that are there to do root canals and teeth cleanings, and they end up running the rescue and recovery effort, something they're not. So the stories that, that we tell in the book to humanize it, because at the same time, like you hear 241 people dead, you read that in a magazine and it doesn't tell you the perspective of those people that were affected by this and the families that were affected by this. So it's just a number. And for people even at the senior levels of, of government who make these decisions, who knows if they'll ever read it. But it's so important that they understand that the decisions they make up here in the executive branch, there's a chain of consultants, command, it goes all the way down. The final decision maker in that long line of decision makers, it goes all the way up to the President of the United states is an 18, 19, 20 year old kid with a rifle off safe, finger on trigger, watching a vehicle approach at some checkpoint somewhere around the world, not knowing if it has bad suspension or if it's weighed down by an explosive. That kid is the last decision maker, the final decision maker in that chain. So these decisions that are made up here in air conditioning offices thousands of miles away from the battlefield, they have not just an impact on this kid or the person to his right or left, it's the families as well that have to deal with that empty seat. So it's a multi generational impact of these decisions. So that means that up here at the top, you have to understand the nature of the conflict in which you're about to commit US forces. That is vital. That is your job. And we fail at that. Time and time. Again, we saw it at Abbey Gate, Beirut. Someone is held responsible. The commanding officer, amazing guy, Colonel Garrity. And he knew it. He was a recruiting poster Marine. He probably would have been commandant of the Marine Corps had his career continued. But it gets derailed because of this incident. Obviously he takes full responsibility and is held accountable for what happens there. And he knew it. And he gets up and he keeps moving forward another direction outside of the Marine Corps, which is a great lesson for us all. But Abby, gate difference one, no one held accountable. And but a similarity is that same thing that happened in Beirut is those people who hear the EXPLOSION who are thrown off their feet, who run to the sound of the guns, who run to that explosion, who run to that building that has collapsed. Same thing at Abbey Gate in Afghanistan. Those who are in the vicinity of the blast, those people who are elsewhere on that, that airfield, they run to the sound of the guns to try to save as many of their brothers and sisters, in that case in arms as they possibly can, try to save as many civilians, innocent civilians, who are blown apart there as well. So we lost 13 people in Afghanistan at Abbey Gate, to say nothing once again of those people who are dealing with the emotional trauma and the physical trauma of that to this very day and will forever. But it's the same service member who runs to the sound of the guns to try to save as many of their fellow service members as possible. That's the same person who, who was in Beirut, 1983. It's the same person who was at Abbey Gate, which really goes back to that. Who you're fighting for, that person to your right and left in those foxholes. So that part gives me hope. The lack of accountability at senior level leaders, that part, that's one we've been struggling with really since the end of World War II or since the reorganization of our military and intelligence apparatus in 1947. We've been dealing with this lack of accountability. George Marshall held people accountable up to World War II, all the way through World War II, which got us to all the generals and admirals we can name today who led us to victory. But the people who couldn't make it, George Marshall fired. He held them accountable. And for some reason, when everything is professionalized at the end, I use that term loosely, that professionalism. That term is when you take this and turn the military and the intelligence apparatus into an industry, which will really happen in 1947 and all the supporting industries around that in Washington D.C. somehow a lack of accountability goes along with that. And that's something we hadn't really seen before in, in our history. Go back to the Civil War. Took Lincoln, a few different generals until he finally got to Grant once again, but held accountable and replaced when they couldn't do the job. George Marshall, another great example of that in the lead up and all the way through World War II and then in 1947, for whatever reason, because of this change, when we changed the Department of War and the Secretary of War to the Department of Defense and the Secretary of Defense, something changes there in 1947. And there's this lack of accountability that we see all the way through, through Vietnam and all the way up through. Through Abby Gate and, and up to today.
- [38:25]
Ryan Hawk
Lack of accountability, though. You're obviously much more well versed on this than I am. But what is it? Why do we struggle with this now and have for now. It sounds like a very long time.
- [38:34]
Jack Carr
Yeah, certainly the, the, well, what Eisenhower called the military industrial complex. And that's. I don't like to just throw that out there because people need to watch the entire speech instead of just take that one, that one clip and I encourage everybody to go do it. It's not very long, but it's. There's a lot more to it than just that one, that one line. But certainly having this, this pipeline of admirals and generals who one day are signing or approving gigantic budgets to. It's a private industry who then leave the military and end up sitting on those boards there. That's part of the system and that's just one part of it. To say nothing of all the, the lobbying and the, all the, the whole ecosyste ecosystem that surrounds the intelligence and military industrial complex is a real thing. It certainly is a real thing. And it just so happens to coincide with this lack of accountability. I mean, people have been fired, but for the most part it's for a lack of confidence that goes along with sleeping with a subordinate or getting too many DUIs or pissing positive on a piss test in the military. Something along those lines. But not for performance, not for losing a war. And Lieutenant Colonel Paul Yingling, I think back in 2006, maybe 2000, 2007, he wrote an article where he said a private who loses a rifle gets in more trouble than a general who loses a war. And that is certainly true.
- [39:54]
Ryan Hawk
Wow. What do you hope people get from reading this? What is your hope that they finish this thing and they think, oh my goodness, wow. What's your hope for them?
- [40:03]
Jack Carr
Well, first, that first duty being to remember, especially for these guys, because it wasn't an event that affected a general generation overtly, let's say like World War II or even Vietnam, that affect. People were affected, obviously that went. And then people who didn't go as well. It was just a change obviously in the, in the country, but it affected a lot of people. This was a very small number of Marines and this wasn't raising the flag on Iwo Jima. This wasn't a glorious day for the Marine Corps. So in talking to these guys, something that stands out to me me is that they kind of thought that they were, I shouldn't say kind of they thought that they were forgotten in the wake of what happened because it wasn't a glorious day in Marine Corps history. So I would say I would like first people to remember and then for senior level leaders in the military and elected representatives to understand the repercussions of their decisions made in these air conditioned offices thousands of miles away from the battlefield or a potential battlefield and really understand that their decisions are going to affect not just those people that go down range, but their families. And it's going to be a multi generational impact when things go, go south if you haven't thought things through. So for me that's, that's it. It's humanizing this event, it's remembering this event. And then for those in positions that can, that can impact foreign policy is to really think through committing U.S. forces overseas, particularly in the Middle east when it comes to this book and the stuff event.
- [41:30]
Ryan Hawk
One more Jack when it comes to advice to those who see what you've done and what you're doing, all these amazing novels and now going to non fiction, turning them into TV shows with the most famous people in the world, obviously you could see how a lot of people would want to do what you've done, whether they're a Navy SEAL or not. If someone's like I want to be a writer, I want to write, I want to publish, I want to change people's lives lives in a positive way by taking the thoughts in my head and putting them down onto the page and publishing them. What are some general pieces of life and career advice for a person who wants to do that but isn't currently.
- [42:11]
Jack Carr
Yeah, it's put in the work. I can guarantee you if you don't put in the work, it's not going to happen. That I can guarantee, can't guarantee it will happen if you put in the work. But on the flip side, if you don't, it's certainly will not happen. So it's putting in the work and specifically to writing. When it comes to non fiction, it's a little, little different. But in the thriller side of the house you have to have a finished manuscript first. So today the danger is you can study how to do something forever because there's so much information out there. You can listen to podcasts and buy how to books and follow someone on social media who tells you you need to jump in the cold plunge in the morning and, and you know, eat this and, and sleep in this context chamber and Gendi in the sauna and then do your workout and you know Whatever else, great. I think that's wonderful if that's your thing and if you think that's going to help you get where you want to go. But if you want to write a book, you need to write it. So for me, it wasn't about doing the cold plunge and being in the sauna. It was about doing the work and writing the book and getting it to be the best that I could possibly get it and then sending it to Simon and Schuster, then trying to figure out the agent part and all the rest of it. Not worried about. I didn't have a social media presence before this. This. I had no idea about social media. I had no website. I didn't. Part of the allure of wanting to be an author is that I'm very introverted. And I think in the military I had to figure out how to be extroverted to make my voice heard type of a thing. But as a kid, wanting to be. Part of the allure of wanting to be an author is that I could go to a cabin in the mountains and have no one bother me. Write a book and I thought, send it to New York, maybe do one interview and start the next one. That's part of the allure of being an author. And today, unless your name is, let's say, Planciel, he's passed away. But the books continue with other authors. Grish, King, Patterson, guys who built up readerships in the 70s in King's case. But 80s, 90s and forward, it seems, unless you're an outlier, that you have to do these other things, but don't worry about those things yet until you have the finished manuscript and it's as good as you can possibly make it. And that's the time you want to show it to an agent and start doing that side of the house. So don't worry about agents, don't worry about publishers, don't worry about social media, media presence, don't worry about the movie, don't worry about it. Don't worry about any of that. Just make the book as good as you can possibly make it. So putting in the work and that, that's outside of publishing as well. I'm not an advice giver, you know, typically, but if someone asks, it's putting in the work that is 100% right. Your light needs to be on when everyone else's light is off. You need to be getting up before everybody else. If that's the case. And it's.
- [44:36]
Ryan Hawk
Yeah, it's tough, but it's the unsexy part Right. It's not the hack. There is no hack.
- [44:43]
Jack Carr
Gosh. There was one that I heard the other day, and where did I hear it? And I can't remember, but it was about that same thing. People, they want that end result, but they don't want anything that it took to get there. Where did I see that?
- [44:53]
Ryan Hawk
So, anyway, the Ronnie Coleman one. Everybody want to be a bodybuilder. Nobody want to lift these heavy weights. Maybe.
- [44:59]
Jack Carr
Yeah, that's.
- [45:00]
Ryan Hawk
That's. That's one of them. There's different versions of it that.
- [45:03]
Jack Carr
It's a different version, but general idea. And then the other side of that is something I pass on to. To my kids. And it's never miss an opportunity to make somebody's day. And that's how that the book got to Simon and Schuster. Because of a reputation that I had in the SEAL teams, and someone took a risk with their political capital and. And got that. Got the introductions, that got the. The book to the right desk at Simon and Schuster, which is the only desk that I wanted to land on, which is Emily Bessler's, because she was Vince Flynn's editor, and I wanted her to be my editor and publisher as well. And. And. And so that side. And then it got to Chris. Chris Pratt, from a SEAL buddy who called me in November of 2017, so a few months before the book even came out, and asked me if I remembered what I did for him in the SEAL teams. And I said, no. And he said, well, you know, five years ago, I hadn't talked to him about five years, but he said, you're the only person that sat me down, talked to me about transitioning out of the Navy. When I told you I was getting out, you introduced me to people in the private sector. You followed up with me, and no one else did that. And I always wanted to thank you. And I said, no problem. Problem. And he said, well, I heard you have a book coming out. And I said, yeah. And he said, well, I'd like to give it to a friend of mine, if that's okay. And I said, yeah, no problem. Who's that? And he said, chris Pratt. And so that's the way Chris Pratt got it. But if I hadn't taken that time. And obviously, that's not the reason I did it. I did it because Jared Shaw is his name, and now he's in the show. Executive producer, writer, actor. He plays Boozer in the show, and we're creating this thing together. That obviously wasn't why I helped him. I helped him out because he was a good guy, a great operator, and I wanted to, to help him out as he made the transition out of the military. It just so happened that he was best friends with Chris Pratt and, and gave it to him all those years later when I had a book coming out. So I'd say it's putting in the work 100%. And then also, don't miss an opportunity to make somebody's day.
- [46:40]
Ryan Hawk
Never miss an opportunity to make someone's day. And it's, it. I just sense you're the type of guy who, you just go around doing it, you're not expecting anything in return and you do it so much that you don't remember all the times, like there are people in my life, I know that, I know that they, they, they've helped me or they do things, things they don't remember because that's their default setting. What an amazing quality, man. Like, what an amazing quality in a person. And I, I hope, if nothing else, we all try our best to never miss an opportunity to make someone say, help them out, give them a piece of advice, make an introduction, whatever you can do. You never, you don't do it hoping to get anything in return. You just do it because it's the right thing to do. And it seems by behaving that way that things just seem to work themselves out. Opportunities pop up and boom, here we go. You got Amazon shows and, you know, movies and like, it's, it's, it's a man. I love that as a perfect, perfect way to close. Jack, thanks again, man. The new one, first non fiction. Already excited for your next one. I won't ask you what it is yet, but I hopefully talk to you for the next one, but. Targeted Beirut, the 1983 Marine barracks bombing, and the untold origin story of the war on terror. It's not surprising. It's so, so good. But Jack, thank you so much for being here and I look forward to our next conversation. When you get your next book out, man, it's going to be great.
- [48:03]
Jack Carr
Yeah, me too. Sincerely appreciate it. And you take care.
- [48:06]
Ryan Hawk
Thanks, man. It is the end of the podcast club. Thank you for being a member of the end of the podcast club. If you are, send me a note. Ryan earningleader.com Let me know what you learned from this great conversation with Jack Carr. A few takeaways from my notes. Never miss an opportunity to make someone's day. Let's make that our default setting. Let's work to add value to others lives, make their day, help them make introductions Listen to them. Offer ideas to help others others solve their issues. Never miss an opportunity to make someone's day. Then commonalities of the most effective Navy SEAL leaders trust up and down the chain of command, high character, great decision making. The decisions you've made in the past are your currency. Then do things you don't have to do. Run with your time team. Put rounds down range. Now, you don't have to be the best at all of those things, but you should be very good at all of them. Be able to do the same things that the people you're leading are doing on a daily basis, really big, and then put in the work. Jack has been putting in the work since he was a little kid. He read books for the magic in those pages. All of that reading has helped inform him what great storytelling looks like. And then he continues day after day to put in the work. If you want to be a published author, you need to write. It's that simple. Do the work, get the manuscript done, and then take the next step. A lot of people want to be published authors. Not everyone wants to write. Like Ronnie Coleman said, a lot of people want to be a bodybuilder, but nobody wants to lift these heavy weights you got to put in the work. And I think Jack is a great example, someone who does that. Once again, I would say thank you so much for continuing to spread the message and telling a friend or two, hey, you should listen to this episode of the Learning Leader show with Jack Carr. I think he'll help you become a more effective leader because you continue to do that and you also go to Spotify and Apple podcasts and you subscribe to the show and you rate it hopefully five stars and you write a thoughtful review. And by doing all of that, you are giving me the opportunity to do what I love on a daily basis. And for that I will forever be grateful. Thank you so, so much. Talk to you soon.
- [50:36]
Jack Carr
Can't wait.