← The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk
The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk
607: Dr. Meg Meeker - How to Raise Tough, Resilient, Hard-Working, & Kind Children (Author of Strong Fathers, Strong Daughters)
01:06:20
Full show notes at www.LearningLeader.com -- Dr. Meg Meeker has spent more than thirty years practicing pediatric and adolescent medicine and counseling teens and parents. Dr. Meeker is a popular speaker and bestselling author of several books, including
Loading summary
Transcript75 lines
- [00:00]
Dr. Meg Meeker
I've listened to thousands of kids talk about their dads. First and foremost, his dad has no appreciation for how significant he is in his kids life. And here's a real kicker.
- [00:15]
Ryan Hawk
Dr. Meg Meeker, one of the foremost experts in the world what great parenting.
- [00:21]
Dr. Meg Meeker
Looks like we're living pretty much in a culture that really bashes fathers.
- [00:26]
Ryan Hawk
What have you found to be some of the commonalities among dads who have raised great kids into productive adults?
- [00:35]
Dr. Meg Meeker
I'm the most important man in this child's life. We tend to push dads out of the way.
- [00:40]
Ryan Hawk
One of the ways to stay attached is to lead with curiosity.
- [00:44]
Dr. Meg Meeker
There are a couple of pitfalls that you have to be very careful about. Competitive parents create competitive kids. Don't post about your kids ever, ever on Instagram. I'll tell you why. I overheard my dad talking to a friend on the phone and I heard him say one sentence that changed my life.
- [01:06]
Ryan Hawk
Welcome to the Learning Leaders show presented by Insight Global. I am your host Ryan Hawk. Thank you so much for being here. Texthawk to 66866 to become part of Mindful Monday. You, along with tens of thousands of other learning leaders from all over the world, will receive a carefully curated email from me each spot Monday morning to help you start your week off right. You'll also receive details about how our book the Score that Matters will help you become a more effective leader. Texthock to 66866 now on to tonight's featured leader. So good. Dr. Meg Meeker has spent more than 30 years practicing pediatric and adolescent medicine and counseling teens and parents. Dr. Meeker is a popular speaker and best selling author of several books and including the national bestseller Strong Fathers, Strong Daughters. She's also written the 10 Habits of Happy Mothers and Boys Should Be Boys. During this conversation we discuss the importance of setting high standards as a parent and living up to them. Then how to love someone unconditionally, why you should never post anything about your children on social media. And at the end we discussed what senior leaders in corporate America are doing right and wrong in and out of the office. Ladies and gentlemen, please enjoy my conversation with Dr. Meg Meeker throughout the course of your career. You are one of the foremost experts in the world on what great parenting looks like, how to raise tough, resilient, humble, productive members of society. Let's focus on dads for a second. When you think about dads, Meg, what have you found to be some of the commonalities among dads who have raised really, I guess for lack of a Better word, great kids into productive adults.
- [03:20]
Dr. Meg Meeker
Yeah, well, Ron, and the reasons that I know what that takes is because for 33 years I've listened to thousands of kids talk about their dads. And one of the things that I've realized first and foremost is dads. Any father listening, I don't care where he is, who he is, how old he is, how old his kids are, has no appreciation for how significant he is and his kids lives. That's just something dads don't understand. And there are many reasons for that. But my mission was to come to fathers and say, you got to get this, you got to get this because this is what your kids are saying about you and this is what they want. So what do your kids need and want in order to grow up to be great people? A lot simpler than you think. A lot of dads focus on a house and the shoes and the school and the clothes and the opportunities and travel. It's not that what kids want from their dads. Dads need to realize that the moment a child is born, your child, son or daughter sees you as his or her hero. You say, no, no, I'm not here. Doesn't matter what you think. Your child all during their life looks up to you as the smartest, strongest, best leader, the most important person in the whole world. And that's not a title that you earn, it's given to you. So your job as a dad throughout your child's growing up years is to say, I'm the most important man in this child's life. My child needs a strong attachment to me. He needs a strong role model. He needs to know or she that I fully believe in them and I value and cherish them not for what they do, but just because they're my son or daughter. That's it, that's it, you know, and, and dads go, okay, well that sounds too simple. It sounds very simple. But it can actually be hard to do because high performing fathers and mothers have a hard time figuring out how to connect on a deeper level with their kids. They're really good at work because, because their plans, you know, but really what it's all about is in those early years focusing on developing strong attachments to your kids. Now what does attachment mean? It means that you spend time with your kids where you are looking in their eyes, you are hugging them, you are giving them attention and you are communicating to them that they, they are it in your life. That can happen in five minutes. It can happen over a weekend, it can happen sometimes. In the car. It can happen during those moments where you are communicating to that kid that. Not that they're necessarily the center of their world because that's a lot of pressure for kids. But your job is to love them and respect them and get them to be a great person in their mid-20s. And that's your primary job, period. And so that's kind of the, that's where you start, that's where you start with your kids. And I think one of the reasons it's difficult for dads to grasp that the first year to a child's born is because attachment is all about mom. We hear you got to breastfeed, you have to this, you have to that. And nobody talks about how critical it is for an infant or toddler to have a strong attachment to dad because we tend to push dads out of the way mothers, strong willed mothers like me and other people. But it's really important that right from the get go, dads are told you're a critical piece of this. Oh, and guess what? When you hold your six month old or your five year old, your kids knows there's a huge difference between you and mom. And you need to understand that because what you bring to this child is very different from what mom brings all throughout that child's life.
- [07:47]
Ryan Hawk
Do you think that's changing though, Meg? I feel like it is with skin to skin touch in the hospital with dad and child. And that seems to happen now every time a child is born. I remember doing it and you know, it's, it's the greatest day ever. But then more and more dad takes bath time or bedtime or reading books and I feel like that has shifted some. I don't know. You would know better than me. I'm curious to have you seen that evolve?
- [08:13]
Dr. Meg Meeker
Yes, and it's wonderful. But here's what I am seeing happen. And that is because we're living pretty much in a culture that really bashes fathers. And that's not okay. You look at television and sitcoms and this kind of thing. So fathers, and I've seen this with my son in laws too, they work really hard in attachment the first two or three years with a child and then they start back up to work and then they spend so much time and energy and focus on the work they get in their work zone, their professional zone. And then when you come home to a child who's 8 or 10 or 12A, it's harder to shift out of the zone and pay attention to your kids because the kids are more Complex. It's not just a matter of, oh, okay, let me hold you to my chest. It's a matter of, okay. Now how do I deal with this kid who's snarky at me? How do I deal with this kid? Or divorce dads? You know, studies have found that if a dad doesn't have full custody and, and there's a lot of animosity between mom and dad, mom tends to push the dad out of way. And after five years, a lot of fathers divorced dad just shrug their shoulders and go, it's too late. So what I'm seeing is that kids get older. It's more difficult for dads, particularly high performers, to maintain strong attachments to their kids because nobody teaches them how to do it. Mothers get a lot of teaching. We have friends, we have friends groups, so on and so forth. But dads tend to say, I'm not really sure what I should do here, feeling that I'm not doing a good enough job. And, and then they feel if I'm not doing a good enough job, I don't want to fail, so I'm not going to try. You know what I mean? So it gets, it gets a little more complicated as kids get older.
- [10:03]
Ryan Hawk
I feel like one of the ways to stay attached is to lead with curiosity. I'd love to hear what you think about this, Meg, but for example, just asking questions, being a good listener, asking good follow up questions, being genuinely interested in what they're interested in, and then taking the next step to, oh, they love volleyball. We're going to go to the final four NCAA Final four volleyball tournament for the weekend where we're going to stay in a hotel and get meals together and go to games. You create reasons to spend one on one time together or to do something that they're interested in. Not like, hey, you're going to come to a Dave Matthews Band concert. Because I love them and she doesn't. I feel like that has been one of the ways I've tried to increase that level of connection is what are you into? And then just get curious about it instead of saying, oh God, I don't want to go to that or do that or go there, because that's not interesting to me. But it's basically being curious and being genuinely interested in what they're interested in. What do you think of that?
- [11:04]
Dr. Meg Meeker
I think that's great. I think there are a couple of pitfalls that you have to be very careful about, and that is this. Kids want their dad's approval. Kids want their dad to Say, yep, you got it. Now, competitive parents create competitive kids. And a lot of times what we do is we recognize that our kid is really good at football or our kids good at volleyball, whatever. And so they participate. And so we go to the sidelines, we clap, clap, clap, we take them to their, to their games on the weekends. But we have to be very careful because to a kid that says, I get attention from my dad when I play volleyball, football, whatever, and I want attention from my dad just for fun. I want my dad to want to be with me because he likes being with me, not because I'm doing something for him. And, and this can get kind of dicey. And I saw this, I see this with dads all the time because they're competitive people and our kids can be competitive and we feel that. And there's nothing wrong with raising kids that are really, really good at stuff, but there's a big difference. And this, your heart will tell you this. Dads will know this in their heart. If you're taking your kids and spending that one on one time to haul them to their sports events is very different from taking them to something that they're not doing just to perform. For instance, think how different it would be if your dad, when you were 14, took you camping versus taking you down to play football.
- [12:47]
Ryan Hawk
What if I love football, which I actually did.
- [12:49]
Dr. Meg Meeker
It's fine. No, no, no, it's fine. But can you see how dicey this can be?
- [12:55]
Ryan Hawk
Well, yeah, I think you're describing me. I'm like, did you talk to somebody?
- [12:58]
Dr. Meg Meeker
No, no, no, no, no. So. So. And my husband's very, very competitive, and he was a competitive cross country skier. And our daughters are competitive cross country skiers because they wanted to be with their dad. And I saw this in them and I said to him, you need, this is hard for a wife to do. You need to kind of understand the girls are so much want your attention and time they'll follow you on the ski trails. They loved it. He loved it. But what they really wanted was just to know that he enjoyed their company. So, for instance, it can mean more to your kid if on a Sunday at noontime you said, you know what, we've got a couple hours this afternoon, and I haven't talked to you really all week. Let's go for a bike ride, let's go out to lunch, let's go somewhere neutral so that you don't. You're not saying to your kids, I love what you do, we're going to kill two birds with one Stone, I'm going to watch you do something. I'll clap, clap, clap, and then we'll have had this time together. So try to find some neutral ground where performance is not involved because then your kids really know you like their company. You don't just love them, you enjoy their company. And here's a real kicker. If your kid is really acting up and your 16 year old daughter is dating a guy that you can't stand, then you need to pull her closer and take her to get your oil change in the car. You take her for a bike ride, you take her here, you take her there, even though she goes, don't you get near me. Kids who are acting out are desperate to know their dads want to be with them. No other reason than the fact that their daughter or son.
- [14:58]
Ryan Hawk
So in chapter four of Strong Fathers, Strong Daughters though, you talk a lot about humility and the fact that genuine humility, humility is a starting point for every other virtue. But teaching it can be tricky because your child, in this case your daughter, needs to feel unique and important in your eyes. But you also have to model humility and self centeredness can become a problem. And I think this has shifted with social media where it becomes competitive to post about your children. And to me that's why years ago started saying we're just never gonna post anything with children involved. And it just makes it easier, you don't have to about it. Right? We still take all the pictures and share them with our family members. Just don't share them publicly, especially as my stuff has become more public. How do you balance this of your, like, I love you for you, I just want to be with you. You do not have to perform for me all of that, but also teaching them to be humble people. They're not the center of the universe. They're not like my entire life as some parents make their kids like their lives revolve around them. And we've all probably had chapters of that and maybe that's better than just obviously neglect. But how do we find that right balance where we can teach humility but also ensure that they know how much we love them unconditionally?
- [16:21]
Dr. Meg Meeker
Yeah, great question. Social media is really can be devastating, particularly for girls. Just. That's a whole nother. That's a whole nother subject. Don't post about your kids ever, ever on Instagram. I'll tell you why. When a kid knows that you are posting about them, they became, they become your show off trophy. Look how happy my kids are. Look who my Daughter's dating. Look at my son just, you know, was elected to honor cis, so stay away. There's nothing good that comes to you or your child by posting their picture or anything about them on media, period. So don't go that. But there's another thing that you need to be very careful of too, and that is how you talk about your kids to your friends. Because you're absolutely right. Many of us, and in very conscientious parents, good parents, we tend to so focus on our kids that we give kids power they can't handle. And what I mean by that is when you're talking about kids being the center of the family, they realize mom and dad are jumping all around them every weekend to make sure that they get their achievement done or whatever. And mom and dad are always taking pictures. Don't take so many pictures of your kids because I've seen three, four year old kids, they have the smile ready to go because mom or dad has the camera. Don't do that because it makes them feel like all you do is focus on them and what they look like and so on and so forth. So we give kids too much power. So take it away from your kids. When you're talking to your friends and kids are going to listen and overhear things. Imagine you're in a store, you're in a hardware store and you run into a friend and your friend asks how your kids are going. Our instincts say, oh, well, my son is doing great. You know, he just made first string of the soccer team and my daughter's this, listen, you know, we just went on this wonderful vacation. Things are so good. And if your child overhears that, what they hear is, my dad is sort of boasting about the things that I do in the superficial, but not really me. I hear this all the time. Let me give you a really good example of what humility looks like from my own life. My dad was a very humble man. My dad was a very smart man. He was best friends with the. He was a physician, best friends with the editor of the New England Journal of Medicine, which is like the premier medical thing. And I knew this man and my father always taught me, always do good work, but never talk about it or boast about it. You never advertise yourself. He said, just do great work and if people criticize you, to shake it off and move forward. But I always knew my dad believed in me. When I was a senior in college, I applied to tons and tons of medical school. I didn't get in and I was despondent because I had no plan B. I was living at home and I overheard my dad talking to a friend on the phone. And I heard him say one sentence that changed my life and it was this. And he didn't know I was standing there. He said, yeah, my daughter Meg didn't get into medical school, but it's okay. Next year or the year after, she'll be going. And in that moment, I knew I was going to go. Was my dad boasting about me? Not really. What he was communicating to his friend is he believed in me, that I could do anything I wanted, but he never pumped me full of that when I was growing up. He never pushed me to go to medical school. He never said, oh, you should this or oh, you should that. Teaching your kids humility is extremely important. It's not teaching them to beat themselves up and to be a doormat. It's not this false humid, like, oh, I'm a terrible person, I'm a terrible person. You're better. It's teaching them that the value of their life is the same as the value of anybody else's life. In other words, even though you may be very accomplished, don't you dare feel like you're a better person, that you have greater value than another person ever. And I just had a three year old come in my practice the other day by a foster mom. He was non verbal and I said, why? He said his parents locked him in a closet for three years and that's why he wasn't talking. So I've been working with this little kid. The value of that child's life is the same value as mine, period. And if I can't see that value in that child, I can't take adequate care of him. And to help your kids see that, the value in your eyes that they have compared to their classmates, their teammates, is the same. Because if they believe they're more important, it's going to ruin their relationships. They're going to talk down to somebody. If they believe they're less important than another person, they're always going to walk around feeling insecure and cowtowing. One more word. Best way to teach your kids humility is teach them to serve. Take them somewhere and have them serve in the soup kitchen. Take them on a mission somewhere. Take them on a place where they are working with people who have equal value but very little opportunities in life. That's really one of the best ways to teach humility.
- [22:08]
Ryan Hawk
I believe one of the big things my wife and I have Talked about is unconditional love. And using that phrase with our children saying it and then defining it. How would you describe unconditional love and then how to live that out as a parent?
- [22:27]
Dr. Meg Meeker
Yeah, great question. I think that we all want to do that. I think it's extremely hard to give your kid unconditional love because as kids get older, they're going to do things that disappoint you, make you angry, and make you dislike them at times. Unconditional love means that they have to do 0 to earn your love. And if they end up in prison, your love for them will be no different than if they graduate from Harvard. Now, that's hard to wrap your mind around. So what I encourage parents to say is, after a child fails, and kids should fail because you can't succeed unless you fail, they miss the soccer goal, they get an F on a test, whatever it is, you know, boyfriend breaks up with them, and you look at them and say, you know what, honey? And you look right into their face. Nothing could make me love you less. If you never went to school, if you sat in a closet the rest of your life, I would adore you. And then to be careful because our kids are always doing some kind of activities not to over applaud again, because kids, so many kids want their dads to be happy and they want to impress them. They want to make them be proud of them, so they perform. It's great to encourage that, but encourage other things too, because, you know, service and that kind of a thing. Because that shows your kids what real unconditional love is like. It's hard. It's hard to unconditionally love your spouse. Right. She comes in and yells at you after a hard day. It's hard to look at and go, honey, nothing could make me change my love for you. Even though I want to walk out. I adore you and I love you. Unconditional love's heart.
- [24:24]
Ryan Hawk
Do you say that? Do you say that to your husband?
- [24:27]
Dr. Meg Meeker
No. No, I wish.
- [24:29]
Ryan Hawk
You don't. What are you talking about?
- [24:31]
Dr. Meg Meeker
I know. So we've been married.
- [24:32]
Ryan Hawk
Right. About this stuff.
- [24:34]
Dr. Meg Meeker
I know. Well, listen, authors write about books to solve their own problems. No, my husband and I have been married 43 years. We have a great relationship. But let me tell you, there have been times that I just wanted to string him up, and it's lasted for years. Okay. We work together. We. We started medical practice together. Yeah. And that's part of marriage times. You go through years. It's like, I don't ever Want to hear your voice again. So just talk to me for a year or two. Live at the other end of the house. Everybody should have a house big enough that you could live in a spot. No, but that's, that's how really, really, really hard unconditional love is. Unconditional love of your kids is easy until they're about eight and then they, then they get really snarky and then you have a 13 year old girl who walks and goes dad, don't touch me, you're just disgusting. Or your kid grows up and they decide I'm not going to go to college, I want to do this. And in your mind you always had this kid graduating from an Ivy League school and now you're disappointed in them. Now you don't want to communicate that to them, but you're grasping with the grappling with this. Can you express unconditional love to them? So it's hard, but I think you're absolutely right, Ryan. We need to practice, but we need to say things like, look, even if you never, even if you were in an auto accident, could never talk to me, could never hug me, could never do anything and I had to care for you the rest of my life, my depth of love for you would never change. And is, isn't that what we wanted our dads to say to us?
- [26:16]
Ryan Hawk
Yeah, I think it's I love you and I'm proud of you. It's first three things I say at the end of, of school day, getting off the bus after a game. I mean, anytime I love you, I'm proud of you. I think that that is, I think almost so much that they just tune it out or it just becomes so normal. I want it to be that way. I think that's good. Back to the marriage thing. So I was reading in chapter or no chapter nine, teach her to fight. You talked about at the beginning of the chapter you and your husband and you were trying to change him for many years early on in your marriage because he.
- [26:48]
Dr. Meg Meeker
Do we really have to talk about. Well, I, I actually it's important.
- [26:53]
Ryan Hawk
Here's the reason why is because I felt like your husband for a second. Not that my wife has never really tried to change me, but I love to exercise and I have to do it every day. It's my medicine. If I don't get it like I'm gonna die. So like it's a seven day a week thing. It's more ment. Physical for me. She knows it and I think loves me for it. And it's Never ever. She does too. But we just have to do it at different times so we can take care of our kids. So I'm curious about this idea of. Because when I saw you, like, trying to change him and argue with him, and I was like, God, I don't know if I want to be married to Meg. That seemed brutal. What did you learn from those years trying to change him to. Then you evolved to the point where I think you finally said, that's who he is.
- [27:33]
Dr. Meg Meeker
You just love him. And I think it's very common in the first place. First, at least 10 years of any married couple's life is you often find these things about your spouse that really drive you crazy and that you don't deserve. I deserve a husband who's not golfing every Saturday afternoon and Sunday afternoon. I don't get my time. So what I need to do is communicate to him that this is not okay. And then he needs to help me do my thing. And so there's this tug in this pole. I see my kids do this. We identify things in our spouse that we go, I don't know, this is not fair. I don't want to live this way. I'm not going to live this way. And in a healthiest of marriage, that's going to happen. But then you get through that and you realize, okay, haranguing him about. Because my husband's a compulsive exerciser, truly, it's a need. It's a need.
- [28:28]
Ryan Hawk
I feel that. I feel it.
- [28:30]
Dr. Meg Meeker
And I've acknowledged that. And I've realized that if he doesn't exercise for a few days, days, he needs to go outside. But that's okay. But it took me a long time to get to the point is, this is life. This is who this man is. You better love him. And, and. And just get off your soapbox. So. And I always joke, so I figured out what he needed to change. And of course, he tried to do the same with me. Okay? And then the second decade of our marriage is okay. Now, how can we navigate this? And then the third decade, we just said, oh, forget it. Just love me for who I am, you know, the guy cleans his chainsaw on my kitchen counter now. I hate that, okay? He cleans his bike in our kitchen. He puts his shoes on our center island in our kitchen. Who cares? He's a good man, you know, and so these are the kind of things that you just learn, you know, He. It's quirky, it's weird, but he's a good man. And so I try to look at his positive qualities and forget all the, the stuff that drives you crazy. The quicker you learn to just forget about that stuff, the better your marriage is going to be. Now, if, if it's a real offense, somebody's screaming at you or hitting you or beating up your kids or whatever. Oh, no, no, that's. But I'm talking about the normal irritations that most married couples, even those with great marriages, feel.
- [29:57]
Ryan Hawk
Yeah. Okay. One of the quotes I love and think about often because your book had been referred to me a million times, is one of the best things fathers can do is raise their daughter's expectations of life. That will directly affect how your daughter talks, how she dresses, how well she does in school, and even with sports or musical instruments she chooses to play, you can help her set goals, help her define a higher purpose for her life, and as a result, her self esteem will skyrocket. It will also bring you closer because she'll recognize you as a leader and an ally, helping her to chart a better course. Can you go deeper when it comes to raising your daughters or sons expectations of life?
- [30:42]
Dr. Meg Meeker
Yeah. And I will say, my husband did this with our daughters. And so it was easier for me to write, we have three daughters and a son. What you communicate to your daughters early on is they have enormous capacity to do far more than they think they can do. And so when they go out and they try to first learn to ski and they start to cry and they leave, you know, you don't yell, you go, you know what, honey? Yep, it's hard. Let's go again. Let's go again. And to teach them that they have the emotional and intellectual and physical capacity to excel at things in some way. And by the way, you're the one as dad who will always have their back. You're the one who is their number one fan. So when they're ready to tip over, you have their back. Now that doesn't mean you push them to be something that they're not. I don't know what their capacity, I don't know what their gifts are. So you help identify your daughter's gifts and then you help her unleash them. And see a daughter, if she gets the message from her dad that he believes she's unstoppable, she's unstoppable. Now here's something that irritates mothers. And you'll get this as a. If you think back to when you're a kid, daughters expect their mothers to think they're wonderful. Sons expect Their mothers to have to believe, you're great. You're going to do this. Don't worry, you'll succeed. Because that's what our mothers have to do. When I didn't get into medical school, my mother said, oh, you'll get there, honey. Just keep trying. Just keep trying. And I. Okay, Mom. Thank you. But you're my mom. Wonderful mom. But when my dad told me I was going, I was going. And you see, I always knew that deep in my dad's heart, he knew I had the capacity, even when I thought I didn't. He knew I had the drive, even though I didn't really know what drive was all about. He saw it, he expected me to use it, and he challenged me.
- [32:59]
Ryan Hawk
Did you not feel pressure, since he was a physician, to be. So even though he was one, and he said he kind of called his shot for you, for the future, you'll get in, you'll go. Was there any part of it that like. Well, is that just because he's a doctor, he wants me to be a doctor. So in order to receive love, I have to go do this? You're saying you didn't feel any of that?
- [33:18]
Dr. Meg Meeker
No, no, no. It's funny, because if anything, my dad discouraged me from going into medicine because at that point, medicine was changing. You know, HMOs were coming in and insurance companies were taking over, and physicians were losing control. I wanted to be a physician because I thought my dad was brilliant, and I wanted to be brilliant like my dad. I never said that. He never said that. I also learned that I'm a very driven person. My husband's learned that about me. It's just the way it is. I'll probably never retire. He'll never retire. But what? My dad? No. So I really didn't. You know, people will ask that. He never said, oh, you need to go, you need to go. My dad was a pathologist, and he would drag me into work. Now, listen, ryan, when you're 15 and you go into a lab with your dad and there's all these buckets of body parts, and your dad reaches an ungloved hand, because we didn't know about hepatitis and stuff, and grabs half of a foot, throws it on a slab and starts to cut it open, you don't want to go to medical school. So it's not like you said, see how much fun this is? Why don't you do it? No, but, But. But here's what he did that really communicated. I had capacity.
- [34:38]
Ryan Hawk
Yeah.
- [34:39]
Dr. Meg Meeker
He was never thrown off by My failures. He. He always looked at me like, don't you dare give up. That's not an option. You know? Okay, Literally, I rode horses. You fall off your court, your horse. Your horse falls on top of you, okay, what are you going to do? You go back up, because that's what you do. You're strong. So one of the best ways to teach daughters to be strong and to know their capacity is to embrace them when they fail. Don't get mad. No, I can't believe you got an F in algebra. What is wrong? You are so much smarter than that. You go, you know what? I don't need to tell you anything because you know, you can do your algebra. Okay? And I don't know why you're not motivated, but let's go at it again. How can I help you go at it again? Because you're a smart kid. You. You can do this, but you got to dig down and you got to do it. So to find those moments in life when your kid needs to. You need to help them dig down and say, let's go again. And to be willing to tell them about an experience, perhaps where you had to dig down, say, you know, I flunked, and this is what ha. This is how I did it. And it was because, if you think about it, we never, ever anything worth doing, you're going to have to fail a number of times before you get there. Because easy things to get are easy, but they're not. You don't cherish them as much. But doing well, if you're going to do well in your career, you have to fall in your face over and over and over. Doing well in your marriage, you're going to have to fight and resolve and fight and resolve and fight and resolve. And so it's. It's during those times when you need to resolve is when you really embrace your daughter and get her to go.
- [36:25]
Ryan Hawk
Chapter seven is be the man you want her to marry. See it, do it, teach it. And I think this is another portable lesson well beyond being a parent. This is lead yourself first before you can lead anybody else. So this absolutely applies to a CEO, a senior leader at a company that you're not gonna lead any of your people unless you're really good at leading yourself. And the fun part of that, Meg, is it never ends. Leading yourself is an forever pursuit and will never get there. As it relates to moms and dads and sons and daughters, can you go deeper on the fact that you have to see it, do it, and teach it? You have to lead yourself first before you can ever think about leading anybody else.
- [37:11]
Dr. Meg Meeker
You bet. Here's what kids do that dads need to realize. Your child is constantly surveying you. You walk into a room after work, and within the first 60 seconds of you walking into room, your kid is going to size up what your day was like. Are you in a bad mood? Are you in a good mood? Did you have a fight? Did you not have a fight? And here's why. Because they need to know whether you're going to pay attention to them or not. See? Because they need something from you at all times. They need to know that you see them, that you don't walk past them when they're studying in the kitchen table, on your phone, that you walk in, you stop, kiss on the cheek. How are you? It's great to be with you. I'll be back in a minute. And so your kids are constantly studying. So they're watching how you talk. They're watching your facial expressions. They're watching your body language. They're watching how you interact with them. Are you sincere when you look at them and give them a hug? Or are you just sort of trying to do it to get on to the next thing? Because your kids need to know in that moment that you are paying attention and you're giving them attention and you value them. So what do you need to do? Fathers need to figure out what, say, the five strongest character qualities they want in their kids. And that's pretty easy to find because those are the ones that you feel strongly about. I want them to be honest. I want them to work hard. I want them to be committed to something. I want them to learn to love well, want them to, whatever it is. And then you say to yourself, how am I showing this to them? Part of respecting other people is how I talk to them. So you can say, I want my kids to grow up to be respectful and to talk well to other people. Then you can't go and swear in front of them at your best friend. You can't go. If you want them to be patient and scream at your wife and tell your kids they need to learn to be patient. Forget it. Just don't waste your words, okay? And here's why that's really important. Because what your daughter sees, okay, she sees her dad speaking well to his wife, the other kids, his friends, and so on, so forth. She sees that. She incorporates that in her mind. The picture of you doing that is in her mind, stuck. So when she goes out to interact with any other male Figure particularly the boyfriend, that's the gold standard. So if he takes her somewhere and he lets the F word rip, he's gone. Because my dad doesn't do that. Now, if you only tell her.
- [40:03]
Ryan Hawk
You think, though, for real, do you think that this is a particular one for me? We said a long time ago, years ago, we're not going to use that language in our home ever with our kids. We're not going to drink in front of them. We're not going to use that language in front of them. But, you know, we've seen some dudes come over from time to time that I'm 99.9 certain they use that language. And our daughters may, too. I'm sure they do at times, but that's not how. That never has never happened once. Like, I've never slipped ever once in 17 years. And so I'm just wondering. Yes, I'm trying to set the gold standard. I'm trying to live it. But I. I still wonder, is that working? Is it? I don't. I don't know, Meg. You know, I'm curious.
- [40:51]
Dr. Meg Meeker
No, are you. Are your kids married?
- [40:54]
Ryan Hawk
No, they're too young.
- [40:56]
Dr. Meg Meeker
Okay. What I'm talking about is because you're absolutely right. You have set that gold standard that you have set is in her head now. When it really matters, she'll use it. But during the teen years, girls are gonna be around this guy. They're going to be around that guy, and it's. It's good for them, okay? Because they're gonna see what is it like to be around a guy who didn't, like, act like my dad? What is, what is it like to be a. Around a guy who's, you know, smoking weed all the time? I will tell you. I was engaged for two years to a man my dad couldn't stand because I wanted independence. But I knew I'd never marry him. Right. Because he.
- [41:39]
Ryan Hawk
You knew that at the time.
- [41:41]
Dr. Meg Meeker
This is. This, this is horrible. Yes, I did. Really? Yes, yes. But. But he was in LA and I was in Boston.
- [41:49]
Ryan Hawk
You got engaged to him, though?
- [41:51]
Dr. Meg Meeker
Yeah.
- [41:51]
Ryan Hawk
Okay.
- [41:52]
Dr. Meg Meeker
Yeah, because. Yeah, but it's easy to be engaged to somebody you never see. Right. I knew I was going off to medical school and I was going to do this, and so. Okay, we'll deal with this marriage thing down the road. Okay? Look, I'm. I'm bringing you into the mind of a 21 year old, okay, because your, your kids are going to be 21 pretty soon. But I just kind of. Because my dad hated him. I'd never marry anybody my dad hated. But it didn't bother me that much that my dad was a little thorny about it because I wanted my dad to know I was independent. But then I met my husband, who was very much like my father. The engagement broke off and seven months later I was married. I don't recommend doing that, but here's my point. During the, during the years your kids are younger and teens and in their 20s, they're going to move here and move there and be around a lot of people. But when it comes to lifelong commitment, they want the best in that spouse. And the best is what you've put in their head.
- [42:59]
Ryan Hawk
Okay?
- [43:00]
Dr. Meg Meeker
Now think about this. I can't tell you how many girls I've seen who've had terrible relationships with their dads. Dads screamed and they say to me at 70, I will never marry a man just like this. I'll never do it. Five, 10 years later, what do they do? They walk down the aisle to a guide who is abusive to them. Why? Because it's the familiar dad plants in the mind of a daughter. What is familiar? What's the default? And that is so powerful that when it comes to the big decisions in their lives, that's where they go. That's home base.
- [43:47]
Ryan Hawk
So the bad boy phase that some go through, meaning girls who seek that out, and I know there's a lot of psychological reasons as to why that might happen. What, what do you think about that? If, as the dad, you're trying so hard to live it every day, right? To do things with deep intention and for a reason and high character, hard work, trusting all those things, be good to people, never ever speak negatively behind somebody's back. We have a phrase in our house. Let's spread positive gossip, which means we only speak positively. We tell good stories about people, not bad. So that type of thing. But if, then you still, like you think the bad boy thing or the one who's not right for you is a phase that like some just decide to go through or what's that all about?
- [44:33]
Dr. Meg Meeker
Yeah. First of all, by the time your kid hits 16, they know what you think about everything. They know how you feel about everything. So you don't need to hammer them. Okay? 16 year old daughter brings home this guy and you think, are you kidding me? You know, he's got tattoos all over his face, including his lips. And you're like, what are you doing? You want to shut the door and yell at your dog? No, no, no, no, no, no. She knows, okay? She Knows what home base is and what the gold standard is. She is experimenting with herself. This doesn't have to do with you, dad. Don't take it personally. It does not mean you're a failure. It means your daughter is just trying to figure out life. Okay? It's not that what you taught her didn't work. It's not that you wasted all of that time. It has nothing to do with you. It has everything to do with what she's going through. So how do you respond? Okay. She knows you're not gonna like this guy. You don't need to say anything. Your face is gonna say it all in the first 10 seconds. You meet the guy. You have to meet the guy face to face. Period. Okay? Yeah, yeah. You gotta meet him.
- [45:46]
Ryan Hawk
Shake hands. Let's talk.
- [45:48]
Dr. Meg Meeker
I put that in my book. I think you shake his hands, his heart.
- [45:52]
Ryan Hawk
You talk about guns and everything.
- [45:54]
Dr. Meg Meeker
Yeah. You know, I know my dad taught me to hunt. Okay? And so what you do, because this is so normal for kids to do this, and it breaks your heart. You've got this beautiful little girl that you just don't want broken or hurt or yelled at or whatever. But basically, by 17 or 16, she knows everything about how you feel and think and want from her. So you. You. You swallow hard and you embrace the moment and what she's going through. You don't embrace the guy. You don't like the guy. You don't fake it. But you say, honey, okay, why don't you have so and so over for dinner? And you just. You know, you just suck it up and you just. You let her know you're interested in her life in that moment. You're interested in what she likes about him, what. How he makes her feel. So you're not going to just go. Get out of here. Because that's kind of what she's waiting for you to do. She might even be testing you to see dad. Do you really mean it when you say you love me? Are you going to put up with this, dad? Are you going to or. A lot of times they're just trying to get attention. You know, girls would do anything, including getting pregnant, to get attention. So you need to make sure I see it. Okay, I got it. Okay. You like this guy. Okay, I'd like to get to know the guy. Okay. And you ride with it. No lectures. You don't hammer her over the head. She knows it all. And you just. And you just go with her face. But again, you always have her back. You don't like what she's doing. But you always have her back because the boyfriend eventually is going to go, okay, at 17, she's. She's dating this creeper. Her. She's not going to marry him at 25, okay. And she's not. She doesn't have full brain development until she's closer to 25. Anyway, so the good news is, you know, you've got eight years to change your mind.
- [47:51]
Ryan Hawk
Well, I like the story. You. There's multiple stories, but I think it was at Alicia. You may probably use a fake name. And Jack. Alicia and Jack. So Alicia's dad knew that Jack, like, he just had a gut intuition that he like something about the guy. I don't trust him. There's just something about him I don't know. And, but it, it caused the fracture in Alicia and her dad's relationship because she got engaged. She getting ready to get married. They spent a lot of money getting ready for this wedding. And all of. All of a sudden, Alicia finally got this, like, sickening feeling because she got a phone call saying, hey, you're not the only one. And so she hires a private investigator. And it's realized that Jack has multiple kids with multiple women. He has multiple lives. He doesn't have the job he says he has. And she calls her dad and says, I need you. And of course, he's there immediately. And I think this is the key part of the story, Meg, that I really like, liked is after he protected her, he went in and talked to Jack, and then he changed the locks and he got him out of there. He never once told her, hey, I told you so. What are you thinking? He never did any of that. He just loved her. He just supported his daughter. He was there for, never made her feel bad, didn't make her feel small because she made a bad choice. He just was there for her. Even though they had a huge rift in their relationship because he had told her, this guy is not right for you. You shouldn't get married to him. And I think. Think that's a key point, is, yes, it turned out that the dad was completely right, but he didn't need to say that. All he needed to do was to love her and be there for her. And I bet that probably solidified Alicia and her dad's relationship for life. And I. I think that's something to remember that sometimes you're going to be right. Don't rub it in their face.
- [49:27]
Dr. Meg Meeker
No, because, you know, because I'll guarantee you in. In. Yeah. In that moment when she got the phone call the shame that came over her was overwhelming. She was embarrassed. She was. She just. She wanted to run and hide. And if her dad would have come to her and gotten angry or said, I. You know what? I knew it. You just. If you'd only listen to me.
- [49:53]
Ryan Hawk
Yep.
- [49:53]
Dr. Meg Meeker
Now don't say a word. You come into her house. You change the locks. Honey, what can I do? I know that this is incredibly painful for you, so. Because here's what's going to happen as your daughter matures and she gets married and she has kids or she gets pregnant out of wedlock or whatever happens, you're the. You're. You want to be the one that she always comes back to. And. And the way to do that is to just stand there and be. And have your arms open and. And never make. Never say, I told you so. I'm working with a dad. Dad. Excuse me. Right now. Who. Great dad. Okay. Daughter went off and did something. She's older, impulsive, got pregnant. Dad is mortified. But what dad did, which was brilliant. And. And we talked about this. Is. And I would say this to all dads if your daughter ever came home to you with shocking news, okay? Pregnant. Whatever. The way you. This is how you get her to listen to you. You look and you listen and you listen. Dad, I'm pregnant. This is terrible. I don't. I'm just so embarrassed. I'm sorry. You told me no. And you look and you say, you know what, honey? Here's the thing. I'm your dad. I will always have your back. This is a really serious issue. So I need to think about this for about 24 hours. So I'm going to leave and think about this. Let's come back same time tomorrow and we'll talk about it. It. That girl is going to want to come back in 24 hours and talk to you because you took her seriously and you let her know nothing can really rattle you. Okay? You can help her deal with anything in life. Okay? This dad communicated to his daughter. I can help you deal with anything. I can help you deal with an abusive husband. I can help you deal with a guy you've lived with for three years who was a shyster. And this woman was. She'd been to graduate school and she was so embarrassed about the guy that was a fake. And. And the embarrassment. So. Absolutely. Because no matter when in your daughter's life. 17, 2757. Dad is always dad. And a husband isn't dad. And I adore my husband, but he was not my dad. You have A respect for your dad. You don't with other men because they. The. The initial, the origination of your relationship is child to adult. Your. Your. When your marriage starts, it's adult to adult. Adults don't need each other. A child needs dad. Dad doesn't need the child. And that's why you're constantly, constantly tied to your dad. I say by this gold thread, you always want your dad to help you because still, at 57, your dad is still the one that you hope will be the smartest and help you and have your back even when nobody else will. That bond, daughters want that bond to be so strong. I interviewed so many women for my Father Daughter book and a lot of older women. Women had one of two responses. When I asked them about their dads, they either gushed about their dads or they burst into tears. No neutral feelings when it comes to dad. You either want more time with your dad, who you love, or you want to heal. You have to heal because dad is that big in your life and dads.
- [53:26]
Ryan Hawk
Need to understand that to close Meg I'd love to talk about how this relates in the business world and maybe how we could do better because we talk about mental health and all these other things happening with HR leaders, but how often do we talk about your family and relationships and how that impacts you, especially as a senior leader or you're a doctor, you're going into surgery, or you're a CEO running a business. And when stuff isn't right, especially with your kids, but when stuff isn't right at home, man, I. It just, it doesn't leave your mind. And so it obviously is going to affect you elsewhere. What do you think about that element and how we can do better about helping people with their family relationships and how that impacts them at work?
- [54:15]
Dr. Meg Meeker
It's a great question. And actually, at this stage of my career, I'm solely coaching executive men. And here's why. If you look at what companies give to employees or CEOs, they, you know, gym memberships and they do social events and they teach them how to talk to clients and how to talk to employees, so and so forth. But the, the thing that makes you want to get out of bed in the morning is your relationship with your kids and your family. That's what's going to throw you off in surgery. That's what's going to make you miss the big deal because you can't focus. Now, if you didn't exercise that day, okay, you're having a bad day, but it's not Going to rattle you that much. And no one's helping dads, high performing dads, with the relationships with their kids. And that's where I come in, because I've been doing this for a long time. Typically what I see in high performing fathers is this. They're worried about their kids, they're worried they're not doing enough for their kids. They feel they're failing their kids and they desperately want to know how to do better. What more do they need to do? How should they say things, when should they be with their kids? How much time with their kids? And first of all, I sort of try to reset. We reset, you know, from the get go. Your kid wants you, okay? Your kid wants 10 minutes with you today. So let's get past this. I can't do enough for kids. Let's get past this. I can't be a good dad or I'm not being a good dad. Throw that away. Let's look at from your kid's perspective. Let's say you work 60, 70 hours a week. First of all, you tell your kid, we're a family unit, we live in an ecosystem. We're all tied together and in the function of the family. This is what mom does, this is what you do. And this is part of what I want to do. Do I want to be away from you that much during the week? No. Do I think about you all the time when I'm away from you? Yes. And it really hurts me when I can't see you more. And this is why I'm doing it. And this is where I hope to be in five or 10 or 15 years. You have to tell your kids that because if you don't, they're going to think you're at work 60, 70 hours a week because you don't want to be with them. Now that's hard for you to believe, but that's what a kid thinks. Okay? So then when you are with your kid, you need to realize that the 10 minutes you're with your kid are huge. You can in your kid's mind turn that 10 minutes minutes into an hour in their mind. For instance, and dads don't realize this, if you have breakfast with your daughter once a month for nine months out of 12, do that every year. She will grow up and tell her friends that you and she had lunch every week, never missed a session all of her life. Because in a child's eyes, the time that you give them is so meaningful, it exceeds, expands in their minds. That's the great news. So if you spent a great 10 minutes, you get home late, your kids go into bed. Great time to talk to kids. You walk in, sit on the end of their bed. I don't care if it's an 18 year old boy, you sit on the end of the bed. Hey, how are you doing? I'm so sorry I missed this, but tell me about your day or how is so and so. And you ask them questions and you listen and you don't talk. And you listen and you don't talk. You send them a text. Text. During the day, you put a note in their backpack or on the top of their laptop. Little things here and there because it'll take you five minutes, but to them it'll feel like half an hour. So you use those moments to touch down with your kids. That's that attachment thing. You reattach and reattach and reattach. But then you need to make time also to set aside a half a day, you know, every couple months or every month and say, you know, what, what? Saturday afternoon, let's, let's, let's get the calendar out. This is my time with you. And we're going to guard it and protect it. And I know you may not want it, but this is our time. And you take that one kid away and you are with them. You don't have to talk, you don't have to expect anything, you don't have to do anything. You're together on a bike. I love camping. I love the outdoors. Because your cell phone probably won't ring. You're not going to take your laptop. You're just going to be. My dad and I used to canoe a lot and fish. Those moments were precious. I can still smell his pipe smoke. That's why I like pipe. I still, it just reminds me of being loved. My dad was not. We'd sit in a canoe in the middle of a lake in Maine, fly fishing. And my brother would be over there, quiet. But I was attached. So what I'm saying to men is, is don't overthink it. Find little moments to communicate, little moments to listen, little moments to get out of your zone. You know, people like you and I, Ryan, we live in a zone and it's hard for people to get to us in the zone. Train yourself to get out, train yourself to touch down with your kids. Then you have to set aside chunks of time and then you go from there and it will transform your relationship. I have seen kids, kids who are ready to have to go live in a house halfway House because they're so troubled, have their lives turn around just by incrementally helping dad spend a little more time with them. Because that's the power. So it's so much simpler. But that will, that will, that might even change your salary because you will go to work, you'll operate better, you'll talk better, you'll be a better boss no matter what. You have a better marriage.
- [60:01]
Ryan Hawk
Yep. When I got promoted the first time, my dad said, your presence is required, meaning presence with my people. Don't sit in your office and do it. Be in meetings all day. Be with your people. And the same is true. Your kids want your presence more than your presence. Right. And I think that is big and something I try to live up to. Especially the one on one dinners or one on one anything's walks. If you have more than one kid, I think that's. Or even if you do have only one kid. But either way the one on ones I found to be really just so enjoyable. They're just. I just love. I had one last night. There's a chipotle 50 minutes, just hanging out, you know, trying low stress, low pressure. What's going on? Just listening, being curious. I think curiosity is like one of the ultimate ways that's how I feel loved is if like especially my wife is curious about me and about what's going on and just the world. And I think a lot of people feel love through others. Curiosity about them and asking questions and actually like deeply, deeply caring about what they're saying. And that's why follow up questions are so important too, Meg. So there's so much here that I'm just, I'm very grateful for your work. And it is amazing when a dad has a daughter. I bet the first thing a lot of people say is, well, strong father, strong daughter, strong father. I can't even imagine how many times your book has been recommended.
- [61:21]
Dr. Meg Meeker
You know, it's so funny and I really would like to update it because things are changing so quickly, but it's in multiple languages and you know, and I really wrote it, I was inspired by two people, my dad and my husband, because both of them raised strong daughters. But they never told them what to do and they never said you need to get A's. You never said they just knew their dads knew they had what it took and they were there to help them live that out. And you know, you're absolutely right as far as the curiosity kids want to know. You want to know what they think and feel and that's Ask them questions. You ask questions to understand. You don't ask questions to tell them stuff because.
- [62:08]
Ryan Hawk
Or to judge.
- [62:09]
Dr. Meg Meeker
Or to judge. And I will say, I think dads are better at this than mothers in general. We ask a question to set our kids up to tell us an answer that we want. So that. Or not tell us an answer so we can correct it. And you don't do that. Kids smell that out, particularly daughters. And what do you think about that dress? Do you think it might be a little bit too short? And then the kid defends it and then you're ready to go. But the curiosity, be curious, ask questions and don't say anything in response. There is so much power in a relationship and it's strengthening a relationship in just that act.
- [62:49]
Ryan Hawk
Oh, Meg, this is amazing. I love your work. Strong father, strong daughters. Highly recommended. They're strong mothers, strong sons. You've written lots of books. Coaching leaders. This is the most important thing. What are we doing? Like, we're gonna go work like crazy. What are we doing? The most important thing is our relationship, especially with our spouse as well as our relationship with our kids. So thank you so much for being here. I would love to continue our dialogue as we both progress. This has been fun.
- [63:15]
Dr. Meg Meeker
I would love to too. This is my heart and I can't believe there aren't more women in this space. I've only found one encouraging dads to understand their kids. It's so much easier and to just deepen that love with them. Life is so. Can be so rich. Any father, so rich. So thanks for having me, Ryan.
- [63:36]
Ryan Hawk
Of course. It feels like this is what you were put here to do. So I'm grateful to be in your orbit and like I said, I. I'm looking forward to more conversation in the future. Thank you so much, Meg.
- [63:44]
Dr. Meg Meeker
Thank you.
- [63:48]
Ryan Hawk
It is the end of the podcast club. Thank you for being a member of the end of the podcast club. If you are, send me a note. Ryan learningleader.com Let me know what you learned from this Great conversation with Dr. Meg Meeker. A few takeaways from my notes. Quote, one of the best things fathers can do is raise their daughter's expectations of life that will directly affect how your daughter talks, how she dresses, how well she does in school, and even with sports or musical instruments she chooses to play, you can help her set goals, help her define a higher purpose for her life, and as a result, her self esteem will skyrocket and it will bring you closer because she'll recognize you as a leader and an ally. Helping her to chart a better course. So good then don't post anything about your kids on social media ever. It makes them think that they are your trophy to show off and they have to perform in some way in order to earn love. Also be mindful of how you talk about them to others. Do you only focus on their accomplishments? They are listening to what you say about them all the time. Be mindful of that. Then be the man you want her to marry. See it, do it, teach it. What are the five strongest character qualities you want your children to have? Now how are you showing them that every day you are setting the standard, they're watching carefully. You will create what is, quote normal in their life. Are you living with integrity? Working hard, not speaking poorly behind others back? You are showing them how they should behave and if you were watching yourself from outside of your body, would you like what you see? We have to live it every day. We have to lead ourselves first before we can lead anybody else. Once again I would say thank you so much for continuing to spread the message and telling a friend or two, hey, you should listen to this episode of the Learning leader show with Dr. Meg Meeker. I think she'll help you become a better leader, a better mom, a better dad, a better parent and a better person in general because you continue to do that and you also go to Spotify and Apple podcasts, you subscribe to the show and you rate it hopefully five stars. You are giving me the opportunity to do what I love on a daily basis and for that I will forever be grateful. Thank you so so much. Talk to you soon.
- [66:13]
Dr. Meg Meeker
Can't wait.