← The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk
The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk
612: Lawrence Yeo - Dissolving Envy, Practicing Curiosity, Writing to Think, Establishing Values, Building Confidence, Being Ambitious, Moving People to Tears, & The Power of Consistency
01:03:16
Go to www.LearningLeader.com for full show notes and to listen to all episodes of The Learning Leader Show with Ryan Hawk
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- [00:00]
Lawrence Yeoh
Confidence is born out of the moments where you didn't have it. You're right to follow your passion is not good advice.
- [00:14]
Ryan Hawk
Can you talk about aspects of being an ambitious person?
- [00:18]
Lawrence Yeoh
Potential is a very humbling thing and that's what allows you to learn. The downside of ambition is when your ambition starts to morph into greed.
- [00:28]
Ryan Hawk
The antidote to envy is focusing on your own work.
- [00:32]
Lawrence Yeoh
It exists for the people that actually could inspire you the most. Curiosity is simply gratitude for the unknown. There's always something that is deeper. The question is, do you have the curiosity.
- [00:47]
Ryan Hawk
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- [04:23]
Lawrence Yeoh
That email, just more than any of the others I've gotten, just really struck a chord with me, I think for two reasons. One is the fact that this person that I had no knowledge existed really, and who clearly has finite time, is dedicating his attention to. To some of my work. I mean, that first and foremost is such a. It's just a crazy feeling. And you know, time is finite for all of us. We know that. But when it's that visceral, it really puts things into perspective. And the fact that he would dedicate some of that to reading my work, one was just amazing. And the second thing is just the fact that someone could find that degree of peace in that situation and to really convey that through such a short message and to also discuss how my writing kind of coincided with that. And I think as a writer, you know, a lot of it is a pretty lonely gig. You're doing your own thing, you're writing out your thoughts, you're. And you quite. You don't really know the impact that it may have. And more than anything, I generally just kind of write for myself and write and think through the human condition. But to see how it could land and resonate with someone that has such a finite period of time left really struck a chord with me. And yeah, it really, really made me feel a certain way when I got that email from him.
- [06:06]
Ryan Hawk
Yeah, I love that your essays are published on a website called More to that. Can you go deeper on why you titled it that?
- [06:16]
Lawrence Yeoh
So the first reason is a little boring, is that that was a domain name that was available. I was like looking through various important.
- [06:25]
Ryan Hawk
You got it. That helps.
- [06:26]
Lawrence Yeoh
Yeah. Like, I didn't want to do a dot co or a IO. I was like, I need that dot com, man. And I was going through a lot of different iterations. But the reason why, the kind of. More on a philosophical level why I chose that name is I've always believed that whatever we see on its surface, whatever we think is mundane, whatever we think is something that is just part of life, there's always something that is deeper. Right. The question is, do you have the curiosity, do you have the ability to look at something and ask that question? I feel like for most of life, we just kind of go through things and see things as is. And everything that we say about the world ends in a period, right? And what if you were able to take a particular situation, a particular moment, and just ask yourself, wait, why is it that way? Why? And is there a certain reason why I've accepted something as truth? Can I actually look a little beneath the surface of that? And I think every single desire we have, every goal we have, every objective we have, there's always some deep seated root where it stems from. And the reason why I titled it more to that is that you could take anything in life and then if you have the curiosity to delve a little bit deeper. And what I say about curiosity is that curiosity is simply gratitude for the unknown. You're thankful that you don't know everything, right? Imagine a world where you knew everything. Where is the joy in that? But because we know that we live in a fundamentally uncertain world, the default reaction is to fear that. But I actually view it as very empowering when you view it as something to be grateful for, to be thankful for, because you're like, dang, because I don't know everything, I have the sense of purpose, of uncovering more and knowing that uncertainty is always a given. There is no finish line of certainty. That's what keeps life moving. That's why you know that no matter what happens, until the finiteness of life is glaringly facing me, I'm going to keep on going. Because there's so much more to see.
- [08:45]
Ryan Hawk
How do you decide what to write about?
- [08:50]
Lawrence Yeoh
Yeah, I, like I mentioned earlier, I write about whatever piques my curiosity, whatever I feel like. I think there's more to it here. And if you look at my work, I touch all kinds of different topics. I touch death, I talk about meaning, I talk about money and on anxiety. On its surface, these things may seem very disparate and disconnected, but they're all fundamental. Components of the tapestry of the human condition. And when I think about something like money, for example, I don't look at it from the framework of, okay, well, how do we make more of it? Or what's the way for us to build wealth quicker? My whole thing is, why are we so obsessed with it? Why does it drive so much of our behaviors? Why does it drive so much of our identity? It's always the why questions on any topic that make me curious to write about it. And I really see that for anything in life, really, there's different ways you come across ideas. You could pick them up from external resources, right? Like books or podcasts, so forth. And then there is internal sources like personal experience. Right. I like to delve into the well of personal experience a lot because I believe that if I could communicate my personal experience adequately enough, then it can strike a chord with anybody because we are all shared in this universal condition that is life. A lot of the emotions that you and I feel are shared by countless others, right? It may feel localized to you, your mind, your body or whatever, but there is someone out there that could connect and relate to what you're saying. So my whole thing is I want to know myself better, uncover more of what's there, communicate that. And if I do it well enough, then I could also find the tribe of people or folks that are just as curious about these topics as I am with a similar lens.
- [10:51]
Ryan Hawk
The way you do it from personal experiences reminds me of. It's funny, but Nikki Glaser, who's been on this podcast, stand Up Comedian, or Seth Godin, who's been on a handful of times, who writes a daily blog, both of them are really astute. They have really high skill level for noticing things, really observational, really thoughtful. And then they have different processes, but write them down and publish in different ways. Nikki on a stage, Seth in a blog. I have to imagine, I don't want to speak for you, that because you know you're going to write about your personal experiences, that getting the repetition on a daily basis of writing about your own experiences, you probably are better at noticing life, you're probably better at noticing people, you're probably better at noticing just kind of the way the world works. Could you share more about you being a professional noticer of things? Because you have this forcing function of. I'm gonna write essays about my life, about the things I think, about the experiences that happened to me.
- [12:03]
Lawrence Yeoh
Yeah, Professional noticer. That's good. That's good. So I like to view writing with this Delineation, you could kind of think of it as two different categories. One is your writing to figure out what you think. Right? So writing to think. And then the next is writing to present. And I think when we think about publishing ideas online and so forth, we think about the writing to present. Right. I'm gonna take this idea, formulate it, create a story around it, and then I'm going to showcase it to the world and see what people say. But in order to get there, you have to first figure out what you think about a given topic, given idea. And that's where the writing to think comes from. And it's just as, or if not more important, to really incorporate that into your life. So the delineation I make here is when you write to think, it's because you really don't know what you think about something until you start writing about it. And, you know, briefly, before you hit record, we were just kind of talking about how the leaders, you know, and a lot of people that you've interviewed really view writing as a very central practice. Because there's something about seeing your words on the page that you can't run away from. You have to face it, and it really clarifies your thinking. So that's what writing to think is. And a lot of the time, the way I start that. So I'll just get to my desk and I'll set a little timer, and I'm like, okay. I really. Let's say, for example, I've been feeling a little bit of envy lately. Huh? Why am I feeling this problem? And I don't. I'm not going to present this. I'm just figuring out what I think. So I'll start off by saying, today I'm going to talk about the problem of envy. And then I'll just think, hmm, what may be the solution to that? And the solution is to know yourself. So I'll just start there, and then I'll just, boom, go for, let's say, two hours and just see what comes out. See what comes out. But when I'm writing to think, I also do it under the pretense that maybe one person might read this. Okay, so. Cause when you think about it that way, it differentiates it from a journal. Because when you're journaling about something, you could be a complete madman. You could just write, write, write, write, write, write, write. And it doesn't have to make any sense, just what you feel. No comprehension whatsoever. Right. There's utility in that, but that's more of just a release when you're writing to think and you do it as if one person may read it, then you write about the problem at hand, but you also do it with a little bit of thoughtfulness, with a little bit of empathy, knowing that this isn't purely a madman. Scribbling right there is something that I want to convey, but you're still doing it with the premise that you're figuring out what you think about something. So there's a little bit order that you're introducing to what you're doing. Now, maximum order would be the writing to present, right where you've done a lot of this writing to think already, you're like, okay, I have a little bit of thoughts as why I'm feeling envious about something or why this. This situation at work is stressing me out. And I feel like I have a nice takeaway and I want to present it as a story. That's when you're thinking about, all right, maybe more than one person is going to read this. I'm really trying to get my idea out there for impact. So there's kind of gradations to writing to reflect or to present it as stories. And if you look on my site, you actually see I have a section for Reflections. A lot of the stuff in that Reflections tab is me writing to think. So I sit down, set a timer, boom, finish it in one session, and I'm like, all right, I'm gonna hit publish. The archive section, on the other hand, consists a lot of my stories, and that's more of writing to present, where a lot of the things I did, reflections on kind of act as little building blocks that I'm using to create a bigger story at hand. So all this kind of interplays together in different ways to form the basis of your writing practice.
- [16:07]
Ryan Hawk
Let's get into some of that. You mentioned envy, so that's the one I'm going to go to. Because I've quoted you in multiple speeches without knowing you. I'm glad we finally know each other now. But I think this one is huge. I mean, I wrote a book called the Score that Matters. And Lawrence, what the book primarily is about is the two scoreboards of life. The outer one and the inner one. And I feel like you write a lot about this inner one, which is the one that we deemed is the one that matters most is that inner scoreboard. So you write, envy is inversely correlated with self examination. The less you know yourself, the more you look to others to get an idea of your worth. But the more you Delve into who you are, the less you seek from others and the disillusion of envy begins. The antidote to envy is focusing on your own work. Can you share more about what you learned through the process of studying envy as well as figuring out the solution to it, which is self examination.
- [17:06]
Lawrence Yeoh
Yeah. Envy is such an interesting emotion. If you think about envy, the reason why it's so pernicious is that it exists for the people that actually could inspire you the most. Okay, so let me, let me explain what I mean by that. If you think about envy, you don't quite envy the, let's say, Michael Jordans of the world or the, the Bezos of the world, or people that seem, maybe that are kind of like in a completely different dimension of talent or whatever, right? Or you don't really even know them. These are people that may inspire you in whatever domain you're in, right? So you'll seek to learn from them, purchase their books, read their letters, watch their, I don't know, their highlight reels, whatever. The people that you envy actually are those that are more closer in degree of separation from you, right? So envy exists along with, like even amongst friends, especially amongst friends with people that you used to know that have gone on to do some other things. It's like these people that could actually be your loved ones, right? If you had the chance to just sit down and talk with them, whatever you find, oh, I really like this person. But because you're looking at them through a screen or whatever, you envy them. And it's in these closer interactions where envy is the most alive. And like you mentioned, it really is kind of this outer scoreboard you're, you're looking at, whether it's a polished representation of somebody or a highlight reel of someone's career. And that makes you feel inadequate for one reason or another. And it's always this externally driven or focused vantage point that generates envy. So the reason why I say envy is inversely correlated with self examination is that if you try to understand not only the source of your own envy, but at deeper level, like who you really are outside of all the conditioning, because that's another place where envy lives. It only lives because you've been conditioned in some degree to define whatever success means, to define recognition, whatever. What if you question that conditioning? What if you try to understand, if you peel those layers of stories and narratives that you've been telling about yourself or that you granted from the external world, who are you at the core, the essence? Right? And some people may hear that and be like, ah, that's woo woo talk, man. Like that, that's, that's like more. I don't know, is that in that spirituality? And the answer to that is no. It's a lot deeper than this kind of surface level stuff. What really matters is that you understand everything of consequence was not created by your own hands. Right. If you think about it, your genes, your upbringing, even your interests, I can't force you to be interested about something. It just is embedded in you somehow. It got that way. Why? That's another thing for you to understand. Why. Why are all these things embedded in me? And what's interesting is that the more you peel those layers back, the more inward you go in and you realize this entire universe within you that you just didn't have access to before, before you started asking these questions. And when you start doing that on a regular basis, and we could get into some of the practical ways to do that later, but the more you do that on a regular basis, the more the chatter of the external world kind of starts to fade. It's this interesting thing that happens. And the more you understand who you truly are, the essence of who you are, you develop this confidence not just in yourself, but in your intuition. And that confidence in your intuition is what is able to silence self. Doubt is able to eliminate a lot of the conditioning and give you more clarity on the path ahead. So the more you do that, the less the external world really matters in some sense to what you've defined as purposeful and meaningful.
- [21:20]
Ryan Hawk
You write, confidence is a commitment to trusting your inner compass, despite how strong the outer winds are. If you do the work to know yourself, then you'll realize that no external voice can convey the inner complexities. And you embody. And through that awareness you'll reliably choose your intuition above all else. Interesting that this is matched with confidence because I sense in you as we've talked this. I don't know the right phrase. Comfortable in your own skin, know yourself pretty well. Not trying to come off like a big time guy, just like I'm pretty comfortable in who I am with and what I'm all about. And that radiates confidence too. So can you go deeper on the work you've done, what you've studied, what you've written about confidence and this commitment to trusting your inner compass?
- [22:18]
Lawrence Yeoh
Yeah, well, a lot of times confidence is born out of the moments where you didn't have it right. And then to be aware of the moments where you didn't have it and to understand how you may have gone astray and to learn from that experience and personally, so we could just talk in terms of like, just career wise. So after being in finance, I always knew that finance wasn't where I wanted to be. I knew I wanted to get into some sort of quote unquote, creative field. And the first thing I went into was music. So I was able to build myself as a musician, leave the finance job and do that for a number of years full time. But the thing about music, and you could say this about many art forms, but music specifically is so much about who you know. And I was a beat maker, so it's like I was trying to find artists I could collaborate with. And I'm like, how am I going to get heard? How am I to get my stuff out there? And so much of my focus went to just who do I know? How can I gain this clout? And. And I have to just attach myself to certain people in order to rise with them. It was so much about that. And in the background, all that was happening was my love for the craft itself was degrading just exponentially. I would show up to make music and I'm like, I just felt like I'm just slogging through it because this was. It was all about, if I invest this much of time making music, how can I get it out there? Is this worth it? And when you start asking yourself those questions, the love for whatever you're doing fades. So I, after a certain point, I decided music wasn't for me again, went back into finance. But once again knowing that this is not the end goal, I know I want to do something else. And around that time, I started messing around with writing. And when I started enjoying that, the first thing I asked myself is, okay, do I really enjoy this because my inner compass is aligned with this, or is it because I feel like, oh, I'm. I could, I don't know, build some sort of career out of it where I can influence millions of people or whatever, right? Like, what exactly is driving my motivations? So even before I started more to that, the first couple pieces I made all took about 90 to 100 hours to do. These first, just three posts, and I didn't publish anything even before I was just working on them because I wanted to figure out what I felt about investing this much time into this craft. Right? No one was reading. By definition, when you're starting out, you have zero audience. So that external place, I was intentionally bringing that down to zero and just amplifying what I internally felt about doing this. And as I did it, I was like, yeah, I can spend all this time drawing, writing, thinking about how I'm gonna present this as a story. And it really fulfilled that inner part. So I published the first piece and it happened to do well, but I went into the whole project with this element of I know what not to do already and I'm going to carry that import. What I learned into this new domain, knowing that it's aligned with how I want to spend my energy and my attention, even if the outer winds are completely silent.
- [25:47]
Ryan Hawk
That sounds awesome. However, you also have to. I don't know your financial situation, but I would assume that it's helpful if you were to make money to support your family. Most people need to do that. I don't want to presume I don't know your situation, but it's because sometimes that can feel like we'll just follow your passion.
- [26:11]
Lawrence Yeoh
Right?
- [26:11]
Ryan Hawk
And we know that's not good advice that just follow your passion. So how do you juxtapose this? What like you love and feel towards your inner compass, but also for the reality of the world that I do need to be a provider for my family 100%.
- [26:28]
Lawrence Yeoh
And I've written a long piece called the Arc of the Practical Creator that addresses this. So, yeah, definitely. Like, for me, you know, I did not grow up in a wealthy background. And for me, the whole reason why I got into finance was I was like, I need to make money. That's all that I was really thinking about. And which is why after the music thing didn't work out, I was like, I'm going to go back to finance because I'm going to build up my nest egg to do whatever I can do next. But in brief, I talk about creativity from a practical standpoint, which is why the piece is called Practical Creator. And the way I view it is you're right to follow your passion is not good advice. Where it is good advice though, is that if you know how to balance it with the practicalities of, of day to day life. So I, I basically talk about how when you are starting out on any creative path and what you want to do is to try to silence the question of how do I make money from this in the beginning, right? You're just trying to figure out whether you truly enjoy it. There's a lot of people that will say, I want to be a writer, I want to do that full time. And then let's say they all of a sudden have 40 to 60 hours a week to Work on it. And they're like, I don't actually want to work on this for that many hours a week. You may have romanticized the notion of doing this full time, but when you're actually there and you, once again, this is about knowing yourself. You have to know if that's what you really want. A lot of time we think we know what we want until the reality of the desire hits you in the face. So you have to figure out what you want first. So while you're doing that, though, you don't want to be thinking about money. The way I frame it is have a job.
- [28:20]
Ryan Hawk
Yes.
- [28:21]
Lawrence Yeoh
Have a job that can support you. And the way I frame it is that be have a job that acts as a patron for your creativity. Right. In the same way that the Medici family backed these artists back in the Renaissance era. Treat that job as your Medici family. Right? And yes, what you're giving them is your nine to five, nine to six, whatever. But what they're giving you in turn is peace of mind through money. Because this money, you don't have to worry about how you're going to support your family. You have some sort of stable baseline. And what you're going to do is dedicate your nights, dedicate some of your weekends to working on this craft to figure out if this is what you really want. And this is very important. So do that and then understand. Okay. All right. Is this what I want? All right, cool. I think I know what I think. This is it. And then try to grow what you're doing into some sort of business to try to build a readership, what have you, but do it simultaneously. Okay, so the question of how am I going to make money from this thing? You want to delay that for as long as possible until you feel like, a, this is what you really want, and B, there is some form of external validation that's giving you credence to what you're doing that you can make money from this in the near future.
- [29:45]
Ryan Hawk
So, yeah, I just think that's such a good point because that's this podcast. I started it while having a full time job, out of a genuine curiosity, create my own form of a leadership PhD program to help me get promoted and to build a great career as a leader within a Fortune 500 company. What happens, though, sometimes this probably happened for you too, is the market starts speaking and it starts telling you things. And I had no intention to leave corporate America. I don't. I loved my team, loved my job, loved my company. I loved it so much. I wanted to get better at it because I didn't think I was good enough as a leader. And that was the whole point of this podcast. But what happens is then when they say, hey, will you come give a speech here? Will you write a book? Will you advise my company? Will you work one on one with our leaders? And that's the market telling you it wants to give you money for what you do. And I think that can be a telling sign of, hey, maybe if you actually devoted all of your time to this thing you love, it could be a business. Because the market spoke up before I even showed any desire for wanting to make a single dollar. And I think that's part of how this stuff works in a great way. Because not only did I not make money, I lost money on this for three years because it costs money to do these things. And I think that's a telling sign too. What would you do if it actually cost you money to do it? And then if you could somehow turn that into a business, even without any intention to, that is. Is, at least in my experience, a really beautiful way to go about it.
- [31:21]
Lawrence Yeoh
Yeah, I think that question, it just depends on your tolerance for risk. And I'll tell you right now, I'm not a very risk averse person. Or I am risk averse.
- [31:30]
Ryan Hawk
I mean, yeah, I was gonna say. Wait, what?
- [31:33]
Lawrence Yeoh
No, I am, I am risk aver in the sense that, yeah, I'm. If I was going to lose a lot of money doing what I'm doing and I didn't have a job or some way to support myself, then I would be like, I don't know if that's what I want to do right now. I felt like I needed to have some sort of reliable signal, but also know that the craft I'm in and this is. It depends on the person. It's like, what does it require from you financially in the first place? Right. So for me, writing, it's like it doesn't require much from a financial perspective. Right. I just need somewhere to host my blog. And as. And the way you put it, you aptly put it, as the market speaks up, then you could start thinking about, all right, what are some other platforms or something like that. But for writing and teaching and so forth, the main costs are platform related, software related or something like that. Of course, the more you put in though, it's like you're putting more signals out into the market that, hey, I'm worth more and worth more, and then people start paying you and so forth for that. But Once again, it all depends on your tolerance for risk. If you're, I don't know, if you're going to go into a capital intensive business like self storage or something like that, right? Then you're going to have to think, okay, well, what does my Runway look like? If I have. If I'm going to go at this for six months and set up a facility and all that stuff. But when it comes to the arts, I don't think that's as salient of a question. But yeah, like I said, you have to consider the practicality of the situation. And it's not this irrational fear. Like, it's something that you really have to think about because you want to give your purposeful work as bright of attention as possible, right? Like you want to give it the highest quality of your attention. And when it is mired in financial worry or my Runway is going to go to zero in X months. For some, that may fuel them and inspire them, but for others, that could feel pretty deflating. So once again, this all goes back to the question of knowing yourself. Which of the two are you? If there's a flame under your butt, is that going to put you on fire or is that going to make you leap and jump and really propel you? So you gotta figure out the question, the answers to these questions first, and then decide on your strategies accordingly.
- [34:10]
Ryan Hawk
Part of the way you would figure out those answers, I think, are having a code, having some belief system. You write about values, you've written. Your values are as unique as your genes because no one shares the exact set of experiences and insights that were required to form them. They are the fingerprints of your being, and they are the invisible forces that guide everything you touch. Integrity is the ability to navigate the outer world without discounting, without discounting your inner values. There is an anchor of authenticity that you're unwilling to budge, no matter how fervently people want you to. Can you talk to me, Lawrence, about defining your values? Maybe the process that you've used to do that and how that helps you understand what it is that you should be doing out in the world?
- [35:07]
Lawrence Yeoh
Yeah, I think your values, it's funny, it really is just tied to your intuitive belief of the world, right? Like, what are the things that really propel a sense of action in you? And what is the world that you envision for not just your children, but just for your loved ones, really, if your loved ones could espouse these kind of values, you genuinely think that the world would be a better place? What would those Values be. And it's no surprise that the values of compassion and kindness and integrity always float towards the top. Because those are the values where when you think about the people you love, you want them to espouse because you know that the impact they have will continue to radiate, you know, integrity is this interesting thing because I think a lot of the time we feel that we are facing an uphill battle against what the world expects of us, right? We want to exercise our curiosity, we want to exercise our creativity, but a lot of time it feels like we're just facing a lot of downhill pressure. Hey, that's not going to work out. Hey, look what this other person is doing. You should do that too. A lot of these shoulds. And when I mentioned it's about not discounting your inner values, it's about still staying strong to what you feel like contributes to the world being a better place and to embody that. And if you don't know what that is, a great place to start is by writing about it. And one practical way that I do this is that I journal a lot. I journal every single day. And I want to make a quick distinction between a journal and a diary. And I think that this is where some folks get a little bit mixed up. But a journal is not necessarily a cataloging of what has happened in your life. I think that's more of a diary, right? Like today I did this and then I did that, preceded by this. A journal is more when you ask about why, why you felt a certain way. So if you felt anxious will be for you giving a talk or something. Ask yourself, why did I feel that? Why did I feel that? And when you ask these whys behind what you feel, you get a lot closer to the kind of value stack that you're operating off of. Because everything really stems from your values. Like you mentioned, it's the fingerprints of your being. And if you understand your motives behind your feelings, your emotions, what's driving them, then you really get a very resonant understanding of the values that are that you live by. So I always go back to writing. I'm biased of course, but there is something about just thinking through the why behind your day to day life that brings you so close to that.
- [38:03]
Ryan Hawk
What are your values?
- [38:11]
Lawrence Yeoh
The first one for me is I just think that compassion is the, the overarching value for me. And I want to take a moment to just define what you, what we mean by compassion. Because compassion is not being nice, it's not being empathetic, right? Because Empathy is. It's a kind of double edged sword because you have to kind of see yourself in that person to be empathetic. Right? There's almost a selfish component behind that. Compassion is when you could kind of see past all of that, where you are just trying to understand the world from another person's perspective. And sometimes compassion is being like not not being. It's like giving someone the harsh truth, right? You need to be able to tell people things that they may not want to hear because you're like, hey, I understand your perspective, but let's try to blend our perspectives together here. And the openness to do that is, I think, what breeds real compassion. To see beyond things like status and so forth. Right? You're just trying to see someone for who they are and not for what they have to offer. I think that is a really central component of what makes a fluid and frankly meaningful relationship. And integrity, I think integrity is definitely one of my values too. It's like, how do I navigate this chaotic world with all these expectations, but also stay true to what I feel like I would like to see in the world and to embody that through action. And I really feel that if you have compassion, if you have integrity, everything else takes care of itself in a. In an interesting way. I think the wonderful thing about compassion is that, or even, let's say declining status or something like that is that there is a magnetism to it, right? Like there is a sense of, oh, I like being around this person because this person treats everyone the same. There, there is no hierarchy or anything like that. And it's very hard to embody that at various moments. But I try to do my best.
- [40:33]
Ryan Hawk
You write about ambition and you said ambition is critical to the development of a healthy mind. Not only does it allow you to know who you truly are, but it also acts as a gateway to humility. Since ambition is about putting the bar ahead of you, you'll understand your shortcomings in a visceral way. So can you talk to me more, Lawrence, about the. Maybe the positive and potential negative aspects of being an ambitious person?
- [41:08]
Lawrence Yeoh
Ambition does breed humility. Or they. Because, yeah, you're always setting the bar ahead of where you're at now. It's this interesting thing and you're like, it's just, I'm not quite there yet. That's what ambition means. If you were to put it into one sentence, it's I'm not quite there yet, and you're. And that there's this latent belief in your potential. Right? And potential is a very humbling thing. Knowing that where you're at now isn't where you could be, it's very humbling. And that's what allows you to learn. That's what allows you to keep an open mind. That's what makes you put on this podcast, for example, right? And that's. And that's what you're helping people do, Ryan. And of course, the downside of ambition is when a. Is when your ambition starts to morph into greed. And there is a clear delineation. Ambition is a kind of self actualizing force. It's this awareness that you can be something else, but it's more internal. Greed is external, meaning that greed is when you start thirsting for the rewards of your ambition. So it's like money, status, like these are all things that you want ahead of the endeavor itself, right? When you're ambitious, these kind of rewards just kind of come when you are on the self actualizing path. But when you enter endeavor thinking, I just want those rewards, that's what I'm after. That's when the pitfalls of ambition become very clear. And it's not ambition anymore, as I mentioned, it's greedy. So you want to be very careful. And also, another pitfall of ambition is that this inner critic that becomes so loud that says you're not doing enough. And there's actually this philosopher named Pyeongchol Han, who I, who I love. He has a book called the Burnout Society. And he has this interesting observation that a capitalistic society, it has produced so much wonder in the world, right, in terms of technological progress. But the little trick it smuggles in is that it promises its people freedom, saying that, hey, if you are ambitious, if you put your mind to it, then you can have all the things you want. You could be financially free, you could have autonomy over your choices. But what that does is that it puts the onus on the individual. So if they feel like they're not financially free, they'll say, what am I not doing right? What am I doing wrong? What am I not doing enough of? So Pyeongcho Han states that throughout most of human history, people were controlled by oppression, right? Some sort of government or something that prevented them from doing things. Now we're controlled by what he calls depression, where people feel like they basically are not doing anything themselves. And they fall into this depression because they feel terrible about themselves, because they view themselves as the agent that's not able to do enough. So that's where the ambition starts to take A nosedive is when you keep telling yourself that you're not hitting your goals, your objectives, and there's something fundamentally flawed with who you are as a human being. And in that state, you have to do a refresh, and then you have to go into that element of, what am I doing right now? That's enough. How do I sense that about myself? And it's a delicate balance.
- [44:41]
Ryan Hawk
I think curiosity is a part of my love language. Lawrence and so your curiosity and some of your writing about questions, really, I feel, in a big way, you write, ask more questions to those you love. It's quite shocking how few questions you ask when you're with people you're comfortable with. If you are no longer curious to know about the person in front of you, like a friend, wife, parent, then that relationship is devoid of life. I love this advice, even if it's not advice. I just love this idea of being more curious. Robert Green said on this podcast, it's about being genuinely fascinated about people and their stories. Being interested is what leads to you becoming an interesting person. So can you talk more about asking more questions to those you love?
- [45:42]
Lawrence Yeoh
Yeah. It's fascinating because this is default we behavior. We go on when we meet someone for the first time. We don't know this person that well. And whether it's because we have some aversion to silence or we just feel like, hey, I'm supposed to get to know this person better, right? Then you have all these questions, oh, where are you from? What are you interested in? The questions just flow out. But then the moment you're sitting at the dinner table with your parents or someone that you've known for your whole life or even your close friends, they're like, meh. You know, you see, you see those dinner tables at restaurants, people just looking at their phones, the families looking at their phones. And it's like this interesting paradox where it's like the closer we are, the more love we have for someone. We just. Our curiosity towards them wanes. And it's this feeling of taking that person's company for granted, really. And what that does is that it, like I say in this, in that piece, it just robs that relationship of life. And the truth, though, is that there is so much to every single person you know that you love. They've gone through such an incredible life journey. Incredible life journey. Think about the person you've known 20 years ago and where they're at now, probably unrecognizable in the same way that you are. Right? So aren't you curious about that, how that happened? And to just have, and it doesn't have to be like, hey, tell me your life story about what happened to 20 years. It could just be a little question about, hey, remember that time you were working at that job and then you left? What was going through your mind when you, when you were in that phase? Or like, yeah, what's a big win you've had in the last, I don't know, a couple months or so? Like a simple question like that we find uncomfortable to ask the people that are closest to us. But when you actually take the time to do it and that person is receptive and responds to it, you're going to walk away from it learning so much about that person that you just didn't know or you felt like this light bulb moment. If I just do it more often, I'll learn so much. And if anything, you'll be so much more open to learning too, from someone that you know has integrity or someone that you know you want in your life. Right? So that's why I say ask more questions to those you love. Don't just reserve it for strangers and small talk like we usually do. Use it for those where you feel like the depths of your love, your appreciation for them has no bounds and you're going to see something really amazing come from them.
- [48:25]
Ryan Hawk
This might be a weird question, but when you are just at random places in life and you're meeting up with somebody, whether you know them a lot, a medium amount or a little bit, or not at all, given your, I feel like, nature of being a curious person, do you find that you ask the majority of the questions in your interactions with just anybody throughout your day to day life?
- [48:52]
Lawrence Yeoh
Yeah, I think I do. I think I do. Which is interesting being on this podcast where like I'm being asked the questions, I, I always feel this temptation to turn it back, but I'm like, all right, let's, let's just stick with the, the program here.
- [49:05]
Ryan Hawk
Well, I bring it up. This is selfishly so sometimes you probably get the same thing where somebody says, can I pick your brain? Or can I take you out to lunch or can we have a call? And my natural inclination is to try to learn and be curious. That's a genuine thing. It's not fake. It's just part one of my core four core values is being curious. Right? Thoughtful, thankful, curious, and consistent are my, my core values. And so that's just like a natural thing that's developed over time that happens. And so I just ask them questions, but then they never ask any questions back. And this happens all the time, everywhere, kids, sporting events, meeting up with friends, literally everywhere. And I can name the people that, like, are really good at asking questions on probably one hand. And I'm like, maybe this is a me issue. I don't know. Do I not leave space for it? But I find that there is such a lack of curiosity in the world for people to ask questions, and it's bothersome. But the ones who do, I love them, I want to hang out with them. I want to be around them a lot, but it's. It's not as many as I would like.
- [50:13]
Lawrence Yeoh
Yeah. You know, it's so interesting you asked that. I was just talking to a friend the other day, and he's the kind of friend that also asks a lot of questions. So we were just asking a bunch of questions, and then he just kind of paused and said, hey, you know what, man? I got to say, most people don't ask questions. And. True. But. But there's just. That's why this interaction is so cool, right? And.
- [50:34]
Ryan Hawk
Yeah.
- [50:35]
Lawrence Yeoh
And, like, when you have that dynamic where two people are asking questions, like, the time just flies by because.
- [50:40]
Ryan Hawk
Oh, yeah.
- [50:41]
Lawrence Yeoh
Kind of constant back and forth. But that point of. Yeah. Is it just me that asks a bunch of questions? I totally resonate with that because I feel that a lot. I feel the sense of, yeah, people just don't ask many questions. And part of it is that I do think that it's not a skill that is taught. I think asking questions is a skill. Right. And if you employ it, one, there's this immediate sense of, I think, trust that develops between that person and you. My wife has this acronym for me. She calls me the lse. It's the Life Story Extractor. So she calls me that because when we travel and stuff, and I talk to somebody, like, next thing you know, in the next couple of minutes, they're like, telling me their life story. Right? And what I've recognized is that it just takes one or two questions before this person. I want to tell this person more about my life. So it could be like, I'm at a store, and I see that this person happens to have a guitar in the back. And a guitar maybe is not. I'm not expecting that. So I asked them, hey, what's behind that guitar there? That one thing of, like, it being slightly unexpected, but you could kind of get an idea that it's a little personal to that person and you are curious about that story. Like, if you have those components combined, then that person will just pour their heart out. And I think, like, it's a skill that you cultivate. But maybe the issue is that a lot of folks don't know that it's a skill. They, they kind of feel like, oh, am I being, I'm being a nuisance if I ask questions?
- [52:22]
Ryan Hawk
Yeah, I think there are some that think that. I think a tangible thing that I noticed, Lawrence. And this has happened 20 times more in the last year. If you're going out to lunch with somebody, okay, and it's just you and the other person and you look down at your plates of food and you have not eaten anything yet and their food is gone, that means you're not asking any questions and you're just talking about yourself the whole time. And they are asking questions and then listening because they're eating. And this is what I notice happens all the time. My food is gone and they haven't even put a fork on their food yet. I'm like, this is weird. And then I start thinking like, I must not be leaving space or need to do a better job of making it more two way than just making it like, boom, boom. Am I peppering them? I don't know. Like, so it's a personal thing, but it also is because I think part of it is this show. I've gotten a countless amount of repetitions at it for a decade. And so getting that many reps is a good thing. But also it just conditions you to, any time you see anybody at all to try to be the lse, right? To try to be the Life Story Extractor. It feels like. And given that how curious you are in your writing, I could see why you'd become the Life Story Extractor.
- [53:42]
Lawrence Yeoh
Well, let me ask you this. When you're sitting down and you're with that person and you're in that state of asking questions, are you doing it because you're like, oh, I. It's like this. I want to keep exercising this muscle I have. Or is it purely from, oh, I'm just in this space. I want to know more about that person because I imagine sometimes it's either or, right? It could be like you're intentional about it and other times it just kind of happens because that's you now?
- [54:12]
Ryan Hawk
I just think it happens. I think without even thinking about it, it just. The 45 minutes later, it just is where we're at. Usually, as I told you before we started recording, I think the best questions, usually the best questions are follow ups. So you kick off a lunch conversation or dinner conversation with a person by asking a question about the guitar, whatever, that you saw, and they're going to say something over the course of that, that's going to pique my curiosity where I just can't help it but want to ask about the next thing. And then there's usually something like that in almost every answer that you find. And before you know it, you've learned a lot. And I think one of the things that I love is, is learning from the unique experiences of other people. I mean, I host a podcast. This is what I do for a living. And I think that has been so beneficial to my life to be able to learn, like, learning your story today. And I know a lot of it because I've read almost everything you've published, but now it's. I just feel like, God, what a productive day. And I. You just posted something about productivity, but what a productive day to learn more about how Lawrence thinks. So I think that's how it just now is like my default setting. And that's just what happens over the course of meeting with literally anybody at any place at any time.
- [55:40]
Lawrence Yeoh
Yeah. And. And I think the thing is, Ryan, is that you are actually an outlier. Right. You are fundamentally an outlier in that sense. Because this is the line of, not only is it your work, but it's also. It just feels very purposeful to learn from people in this direct way. And I think, you know, a lot of society, sadly, isn't. Isn't incentivized to have that continuous curiosity. It's like, okay, you work up to a point or whatever, and then, okay, here is where your responsibilities are. This is the scope of your responsibilities. Operate within here. Don't try to, like, peek too much out of there. Just operate in your zone of comfort and you're good, Right? Yep. And I think that is a default script a lot of the time. But then when you start getting into whether it's more creative work or work, whether where you're interfacing with more people, then you understand that, okay, whatever I know is kind of, like, distributed amongst everybody here. And, like, everything is going to be a summation of the parts. Right. It's like the more I know about the people that I'm here with talking to, the more it's not only gonna be beneficial for me, but it's gonna be more enriching for my life. Right. And this aligns with your values. It's like your habit of asking questions aligns with your values of being Thoughtful, curious, consistent, all that stuff is aligned. So the question, the, the element of asking questions, if you want to cultivate that more, I think is also a question of what your values are. Do your values stack up in a way where asking questions is conducive to propelling your values, or if your values are more so in. Rooted in, I don't know, just like security, for example, like, I just want what I have now, then maybe being that curious and so forth doesn't really fit that. Right. And asking questions. So it's more about, yeah, are you the kind of person and when you view the world, do you see a world where asking questions is very beneficial and you see the power of that? And if the answer to that is yes, then you don't even have to second guess it. You're just going to start doing it in the way that. In the way that you do.
- [57:56]
Ryan Hawk
Yeah, it's so good. One more, Lawrence, before we run, man. Let's say you're meeting with. I know you teach, right? You teach storytelling. So you have students probably of, of all ages coming to you to, to learn. This isn't necessarily about storytelling, but I guess it could be. It depends on what you want to say. And that is they're earlier in their career, maybe just a college grad, early to mid-20s. They don't fully know what they want to do, but they do want to leave a positive dent in the world. What are some pieces of life, slash career advice you'd give to them?
- [58:33]
Lawrence Yeoh
Well, one is definitely learn storytelling. Learn storytelling, especially now, especially in the age of AI and so forth, where information really doesn't mean much, right? Information you could get at your fingertips. Anything you want to know is there. But if you want it to be compelling, if you want it to resonate, if you want to imbue it with some attracting force, then you have to learn how to encase that in a story or in a narrative. It's very, very important, no matter what field you go to learn storytelling. The second is, yeah, I think that that consistency element is such a cliche thing to say, but it really is the driving force of any of your curiosity, right? Like the consistency is the action that you put out. And you could do all the reflecting, you could do all the thinking that you want, but it has to be kinetic, it has to, it has to transform into some sort of energy release. And that's what consistency is. And like whatever you choose to do, just know that you have to do it for a sustained, long period of time. And in an age where impatience is no longer, you know, like is it's like it's tolerated. Impatience is something we all have and is almost perpetuated. Like patience is really what is going to help you stand out. And it's really going to not only help you stand out, but give you that mental fortitude to continue onwards. It's a really important thing to embody. So in an inpatient world, patience is the key.
- [60:22]
Ryan Hawk
Love it man. I highly recommend everybody go to moretothat.com more to that that moretothat.com and if you haven't had a chance to read Lawrence's writing at man, you're in for a treat because there's a lot there. Super grateful for you having the guts and willingness to ship your work on a consistent basis over an extended period of time. It's certainly changed my life for the better. So thank you so much Lawrence. Lawrence and I'd love to continue our dialogue as we both progress.
- [60:49]
Lawrence Yeoh
Man. Yeah, I really love this conversation, Ryan. I look forward to chatting again.
- [60:53]
Ryan Hawk
Awesome. Thanks man. It is the end of the Podcast club. Thank you for being a member of the end of the podcast club. If you are send me a note ryan learningleader.com Let me know what you learned from this great conversation with Lawrence. Yo few takeaways from my notes. Envy is inversely correlated with self examination. The less you know yourself, the more you look to others to get an idea of your worth. But the more you delve into who you are, the less you seek from others and the disillusion of envy begins. This is why it's so helpful to do the work to understand your core values, your purpose, the critical behaviors that make your core values true. You do this and you'll see your level of envy will go down or go away completely. And then curiosity is gratitude for the unknown love that the key to cultivating curiosity is to have a healthy relationship with uncertainty and then ask more questions to those you love. It's quite shocking how few questions you ask when you're with people you're comfortable with. If you if you're no longer curious to know about the person in front of you, like a friend or spouse or your parents, then that relationship is devoid of life. And this is why it's important, I think, to approach people with a genuine curiosity to understand them and get to know more about their life stories. As I think Lawrence seems to do a really good job of and that helps him be a more of a professional noticer of things which then makes his writing more entertaining and useful for his readers. Once again, I would say thank you so much for continuing to spread the message and telling a friend or two, hey, you should listen to this episode of the Learning Leader show with Lawrence Gho. I think he'll help you become a more effective leader. And because you continue to do that and you also go to Spotify and Apple podcasts and you subscribe to the show and you write a thoughtful review and you rate it hopefully 5 stars. By doing all of that, you are giving me the opportunity to do what I love on a daily basis. And for that I will forever be grateful. Thank you so, so much. Talk to you soon. Can't wait.