← The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk
The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk
613: Mo Bunnell - Giving To Grow, Falling In Love With Questions, Mastermind Groups, Delaying Gratification, Long-Term Planning, & Investing In Relationships
01:05:43
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- [00:00]
Ryan Hawk
August 4, 1984, I believe is a meaningful day for you and your family. Why is that?
- [00:09]
Mo Bunnell
You just hit me like why'd you do that? You just hit me like a ton of bricks.
- [00:13]
Ryan Hawk
Give to grow, invest in relationships to build your business and your career. I mean, you're like known as the ultimate giver.
- [00:21]
Mo Bunnell
The people that drive the biggest change in the world shape the agenda. That's why it's all always worth giving. Generosity is the master key to success.
- [00:30]
Ryan Hawk
Everything is for the long term.
- [00:32]
Mo Bunnell
Our brains think linearly, you know, hungry, eat, threat, run. But if we give without any expectation of return consistently, we're going to grow that relationship exponentially.
- [00:44]
Ryan Hawk
How do you utilize this giving mindset of wanting to over deliver but actually build a business at the same time? Time.
- [00:52]
Mo Bunnell
Oh, it's so good. This is massively strategic. It's about inspiring and building community and it's just, it's a way to completely unlock a next level of performance.
- [01:03]
Ryan Hawk
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- [04:15]
Mo Bunnell
You just hit me. Like why'd you do that? You just hit me like a ton of bricks. That was the last. I just got goosebumps. That was the last day my dad took a drink and he just hit. As we record this, obviously this will be every green content, but we're recording this in August 2024 and just a couple weeks ago we had our 40th anniversary. And growing up as an only child in a town in rural Indiana with like a hundred people. I'm not joking. Where my family owned a bar and restaurant which by the way was not a good idea in an alcoholic family. When you've got infinite amount of beer in front of you at 6:00am if you're by, by, by Dad. I grew up alone, I felt and I grew up sort of in isolation and I just craved community and helping people. They didn't have it. Like I can remember summers walking around with my dog and just inventing things to do. One summer I dug a hole. I literally just dug a hole and created like a fort out of it by myself and my dog. So I'm actually now glad I had that experience because it, it made me me. I think, I think low points can become high points. But it was very powerful for me to see the low point of my family. My mom kicking my dad out the door, my dad going on a binge and we wouldn't know where he would be for a week. And he just come in with two friends literally dragging him through the house with his toes dragging on the ground because he was so drunk he, he couldn't Talk. And to see him go from that to then selling the bar in the restaurant, getting a master's degree in substance abuse counseling, spending the last almost 15 years of his life helping other people through addiction problems. I'm so thankful now that I. That I went through all that pain with my family, because now I've seen that someone can accomplish things that seem insurmountable at the time. And then that's what Becky and I have tried to do in our lives, is live the life we were meant to live, whatever that is. And for us, it means helping people and building community. And we both really wake up every morning trying to. Trying to do that. Is that. Oh, you like? That was a. That was a curveball.
- [06:52]
Ryan Hawk
Is that a good or a bad thing?
- [06:54]
Mo Bunnell
You threw me the old Uncle Charlie. And I was. I was wait. I was waiting for a slow one right down the middle.
- [06:59]
Ryan Hawk
I felt like it's okay to talk about it because you wrote it in your book.
- [07:03]
Mo Bunnell
Yeah.
- [07:04]
Ryan Hawk
So everything's fair game from COVID to cover. I love the acknowledgment section, as you can imagine, because it's usually the most personal section of any book. And it's so.
- [07:13]
Mo Bunnell
It's.
- [07:14]
Ryan Hawk
It's something I always try to read. I remember writing and crying my acknowledgment sections three different times. Especially doing the audio, which is really awkward when you're with a random audio engineer team and you're crying and they're like, dude, just finish this thing. But. But I do like to read that to learn about the most important people in your life. And obviously, when it comes to your parents, that I have to believe that. I mean, you're, like, known as the ultimate giver. You're the guy who is always, at least in my mind, looking for ways to help other people to add value to their life. And I feel like it's a 247 thing. And your wife is, too, and I'm guessing both of your daughters are they probably. That's how they've been brought up. So I have to believe that was cultivated in you from your upbringing. So that's why I wanted to ask you about your mom and your dad.
- [08:08]
Mo Bunnell
Yeah. Yeah. In the environment, too. Like growing up in rural Indiana, if you could imagine, the. The land grants happened in the 1800s, and people got. You know, you draw something out of a lottery and a family would get. In our area, the northern Indiana, a half mile by one and a half hour mile square. Like, that was the land you would get. And that's the way the roads Work like it's just a grid. It's flat, it's a big grid. There's soybeans and corn and nothing else for miles. And over time, people have kids, parents die, the things get divided up a little bit. But generally speaking, the time frame of relationships in that area of the country is generations long. I live in an urban Atlanta now, right in Buckhead. Like our time frame in the neighborhood is like a year. Like people move in, they move out, you make friends. Maybe if you live next door to somebody for five years, it's a really long time. So you definitely help each other and you share things that going on in the neighborhood. Well, when you're in Preble Indiana, population 100, if you see a neighbor's fence that needs mending, you just stop and do it because you know your kids are live next to their kids and live next to their kids and probably live next to their kids, you don't even mention it to them. Sometimes people are mowing each other's lawns just because they're like, they just do it. So I grew up in this, that crazy invite where he talked about of just wanting to help and want community and want things to be okay. And also in this environment where relationships were everything, you didn't get a tiff with your neighbor because your kids, kids were going to live next to him. Everybody's in this together, you know. So I thought that just the combination of all that stuff and Becky had a similar upgrading. So just it created us and then that, that drives us, you know, in our mission now, if that makes sense.
- [09:56]
Ryan Hawk
Feels like you're the ultimate long game player. Everything is for the long term thinking. And I think that's a super power too, to be able to both delay gratification and to always think long term. Let's do business with people that are potentially going to be clients for life, friends for life. Always thinking longer term. In our first few interactions, you just gave, gave, gave, gave, gave and I could tell you genuinely didn't need or want or ask for anything in return. It was just purely out of the goodness of your heart. A lot about writing books about proposal writers and helpers and people like that. And you just gave everything. And sometimes you meet people who when they're giving, you can feel that kind of bad feeling where they want something in return and there's reciprocity there. Yeah, exactly. And it's like I feel like the ick versus the guys who when they're giving, you know, yes, I want him in my life. I don't feel like I have to give anything back. I want to give something back. But I know that's not your expectation. That just seems like it's a part of your DNA.
- [10:58]
Mo Bunnell
Yeah, well and then so this is fun because we can take, we can go a step farther down the road. So we heard about running this idea of generational mindset. Well then I became an actuary. So I took all these exams to be an actuary 24 back in the 80s and 90s. Well all I did for years was run pension valuations. So you're literally all you do every day. And I had a green visor, a dark room, aren't allowed to talk to people. I'm pretty hardcore. Glad they don't do it now though. It was great. Is I'm running 100 year projections all the time. And that trains your brain to think exponentially. The stock market grows exponentially. The, the. You're always trying to marry the liabilities of a pension fund with assets in the stock market that are meant to, to you know, pay out those liabilities over time. So again, training, training, training. Think exponentially. And what I think a lot of people Ms. Ryan, I think I love your take on this because you work with so many high level leaders is our brains think linearly. You know, hungry, eat, threat, run like we're just barely making it to the next, the next action email answer. But relationships not only grow exponentially. If we sort of air quotes, dollar cost average our investments in our friend Jane over time, if we're always giving, Jane is going to remember for us, remember us and want to help us and, and without, if we give without any expectation of return consistently, we're going to grow that relationship exponentially. Some people get that, not many. But what's really powerful is what's stacked on top of that individual exponential growth curve is a network effect growth curve. So the more nodes that are added to a network grows the value of the network exponentially. Internet, fax machines back in the day, Facebook, social media. The more nodes that are added, the more powerful. And, and what's interesting about relationships is not only investing in Jane consistently over time exponentially deepens our relationship with Jane. But when we do that for Jane and Philippe and Samuel and Janine, they all start talking to each other and the value of your network grows at two stacked exponential curves. Hardly anybody talks about that. And that's why it's always worth giving. Generosity is the master key to success.
- [13:16]
Ryan Hawk
You wrote, I wake up every morning looking to help my friends succeed. And some Just happen to be clients. So how have you built this amazing business? Great acronym, by the way. Big, right?
- [13:32]
Mo Bunnell
Yeah.
- [13:32]
Ryan Hawk
How have you built this amazing business out of waking up every day looking to help your friends succeed?
- [13:41]
Mo Bunnell
Well, we can lean on the literature here. So Adam Grant's one of my favorite researchers and he's probably half the people's in the world's favorite researchers because this stuff is so good. He, he lives it. He drinks his own champagne on this. He's a true giver. And what he found in multiple studies with him and his team is that the people that are most successful in life are strategic givers. And what his very, you know, peer reviewed, research driven technical definition of that is people that give without any expectation in return. The plot twist, though, is that a lot of givers aren't just the most successful. Oddly, a lot of givers are the least successful. So in one study, he found givers, mattress takers. Givers give without anything and expect anything in return. Takers the opposite. They're trying to get everybody to do their work for them. And then like you said, there's this middle ground of people like, you can hear the. That's like in each exchange. It's like tit for tat. I'll give to you if you give for me, you know?
- [14:41]
Ryan Hawk
Right.
- [14:42]
Mo Bunnell
The original thought and hypothesis was that all givers would land out on top. That's not what happened at all. That's. The plot twist is a big chunk were the most successful, a big chunk were the least successful. The difference between those two were that the folks who were the most successful are the ones who scale up their giving to the size of the expected return. They still don't expect anything in return. It's a true gift every time, no strings attached. But if your boss's boss asked for four hours on a project, you might want to give them 12. If a friend. If our cold email comes in from somebody that went to your college and says, hey, can we go to golf? I'd love to pick your brain on career transitions. That's awesome. You want to help them, but you might want to not spend four hours on the golf course because it might help, but it's unlikely to. So you might want to scale that down to a 30 minute Zoom call. It's the. In Grant's research, it was the difference between filtering and scaling up the size of your gift to the expected value that was the big winning strategy. One, one last thing, Ryan, because I thought that these are Grant's words, which I thought are just so profound. He said the folks who didn't know how to say no or the ones that didn't scale up or down the gift tended to either get burned or burn out. And I thought that alliteration, like, I don't know how he came up with that, but it's so memorable that we've got to have this. We want to give first, no strings attached, but we also want to scale up our giving, which what we would call strategic givers. He called them successful givers to the size of the expected value. That's the winning strategy, and that's where we get that double exponential curve impact.
- [16:20]
Ryan Hawk
So this sounds great. Okay. With that said, you still need to grow your business. You still need to make money. You're employing people, you need to pay them. Some would say, oh, mo, you're just the software lofty. You're the nice giver guy. I know you get criticized from this from time to time. You're the soft skills. Let's be. Let's like everything's fun and nice because we're just giving all the time. Let's figure out how do you utilize this giving mindset of wanting to over deliver. It seems like all the time. Give to grow, but actually build a business at the same time. How do you do that?
- [16:56]
Mo Bunnell
Oh, it's so good. And I'm glad you brought this up now because at that, at this point in the show, people go, oh, I really this idea. But it sounds like we're just running in a green field with birds chirping and we're throwing flowers in the air. That is not the case. This is massively strategic. So there's one very specific technique that's in the book that I'd like to. If it's okay, I'll tell a quick story. Sure. I'll give a practical tip of how you do it. We call this a give to get. So Give to Grow is the name of the book. I think of that as like a mindset on how to live your life. A Give to get is a precise, what I would call like a free project just starting the work you want to get. A yes for that you would do to create momentum where there was none before. So here's the story. Becky and I went on a. We were out with another couple, like in. I don't know when we've been married 32 years now is like our second anniversary or something. So it was like way back in the early 90s, and we went to a restaurant we should not have gone to. Like, we couldn't afford this place at the time at all. And a sommelier comes up and he's going on and on about this big bottle of red wine and we're giving each other the hairy eyeball. We can't afford this. Like there's no chance on this, right? The key is he was talking about how great it was. He leaves. We're like, yeah, that's not going to happen. He comes back five minutes later with a taste for each of us. And we taste that red wine. And we bought the bottle. And Ryan, later on the evening we bought a second bottle. The point of that story is that it's very difficult to say yes to something that you hear is going to be great. It's much safer and easier to say yes to something that you've tasted as great. You've had a taste of the experience. So back to the give to get idea. Let's say somebody's a VP in a Fortune 500 company. I know you've got a SVP C level. You got a lot of senior leaderships, leadership folks in your audience in addition to entrepreneurs and sports coaches, all kinds of stuff. What we want to do is move from just being an order taker which is easy to do when you're in a big organization or even an entrepreneur, just land what do it lands in your lap. The, the people that drive the biggest change in the world shape the agenda. And the way you're going to shape the agenda is by giving bite sized pieces of your expertise away at no charge. So if I'm, I'm a CFO or let's say I'm head of a, I'm a controller at a big company, I know the organization needs this new software or a new process or something like that. Well, if I just do the numbers and do whatever's asked by everybody, I'm in order taking mode. But if I go to whoever the decision makers are and say hey, I believe really strongly about this, this new thing I'd like to do, would it be helpful if I mapped out the business case for how much money I think we can save the organization? Because my guess is I did some back of the envelope. I think it's between 15 and 25 times with a one year return. Would that be interesting? I could build out a model and use, we could engage and you could help me tweak the assumptions. Would that be helpful? Well, decision maker is going to have a hard time saying no to that now they're engaged give to get you build the model, have a meeting next week to have them fiddle with the assumptions and they're like, why aren't we, why aren't we doing this new process? This seems amazing. So. But if you just talked about how great the process would be, it wouldn't do it now. That was the longest answer ever. I want to kick back to you, but is that where you wanted to go?
- [20:33]
Ryan Hawk
Yes, I think part of it is Mo, let's riff on this for a second. So when I'm talking to somebody who maybe is a mid level manager at a company and they're asking for advice or how to grow, how to get promoted, one of the first things is be so excellent at your current job that they can't ignore your excellence of how good you are at that. But that alone is still isn't enough. That's table stakes.
- [20:59]
Mo Bunnell
Yes.
- [20:59]
Ryan Hawk
The other part I would say though is to be very proactive, which is what you're talking about, I think being very proactive to seek out potential problems and solve them. Dan Pink said there's two types of employees. One that makes your boss's life harder or one that makes your boss's life easier. And I think a give to grow type leader is one who is regularly proactive, action oriented, seeking ways to make their company better, to make their customers lives better, to to understand the problems and do their best to solve them maybe before they're even fully realized by people that you work with. That's how you're a value added resource because ultimately that's what your boss cares about, that's what your customer cares about, is how can I make your life better, how can I make your business better? That I feel like MO is a, is what a give to grow leader is all about is like action oriented, looking for problems and trying to solve them before someone asked you to do it. What do you think you that person.
- [22:12]
Mo Bunnell
Let's call that a give to grow leader because you're exactly right. That person's going to get promoted more. They're going to make a bigger impact on the organization. They're going to you drive disproportionate value from the order taker, if you will. And I loved your words, proactive, action oriented. And we might summarize in that as somebody that drives proactive positive change. I can show something on my screen.
- [22:36]
Ryan Hawk
Yeah, let's see it.
- [22:37]
Mo Bunnell
So one of the big one of the pages in Give to Grow, the book that people have liked more than any other and I obviously showing this on the screen. If people are watching on video, if they're only on audio because of the podcast, they're listening to it. We're going to walk you through this. But I have had countless people show me this image that they took a photo on their phone. Or we've got this as part of a downloadable toolkit where you can print it out, stick it on your wall. The idea is that what got you here won't get you there. The old phrase is true and specifically in what we're talking about here is that the skills that you need to do the work. We could just call that after you get the yes are not only different, but the complete opposite of what it takes to win the work. Or just get the yes to shape the agenda. To get the. To get the yes that you're going to be able to drive the positive change that you want to make. You know that example of there's a new process in finance we want to follow. Whatever it is, it can be internal, it can be external. And a couple things that are interesting about this table walking it through for audio listeners are that clients respond or internal decision makers respond always when you're doing the work they need. They're all on the same team. We got to get the thing done. That's been said yes to. But when winning the work, they rarely respond. So we've got to lower our expectations. Positive change agents get past their own lies in their head and expect like not a 10 out of 10 response. Like when after they get the yes, but when they're trying to get the yes, they expect like a 1 out of 10 response and they just keep adding value. Emails should be long enough for clarity when you're doing the work, put the seven things in one email. But a great rule of thumb when you're winning the work, when you're offering help is we should have short emails that offer, can you.
- [24:20]
Ryan Hawk
Before we go to all this, this is great. Mo. I love it. Can you describe like, what, what. Who is this for though? Is this for somebody who's like a consultant? Do it does work like you do because like I'm with you here 100%. Because winning the work is essentially you're in the process. If you're an agency or you're a consultant or you're a company, you're in the process of trying to earn the business to some would say close the sale versus doing the work is you've already won it, now you're doing it. So that's, that's, that's where you're. This dichotomy of doing it versus winning. Can you clear that up real quick before we go through all of them?
- [24:55]
Mo Bunnell
Yeah. And we won't go through everything, but.
- [24:56]
Ryan Hawk
Okay.
- [24:57]
Mo Bunnell
Yes. I definitely. Thanks for, thanks for pulling me back to that idea.
- [25:00]
Ryan Hawk
Sure.
- [25:01]
Mo Bunnell
Larger meta idea is that people that want to drive positive change like we've been talking about, they're. They're proactive change agents. The skills that they need after they get the yes are completely different than the skills they need to get the yes. So if we, if we did a, if we did a change on the title of this to, to say instead of doing the work, we could just say delivering on the promise and instead of winning the work, we could say get the yes or get the approvals. That's a broader way to look at it. So we use doing the work and winning the work because our core audience are people with external relationships. But all these same skills work if you've got internal relationships. So, like that, that vp, svp, C level leader that, that might be listening. It's one thing to be just an order taker. It's a whole nother thing to shape the agenda of the organization. A level or two above your span of control. That ability to shape that agenda is what we're talking about here. That yes.
- [26:02]
Ryan Hawk
Perfect. Okay. Okay.
- [26:03]
Mo Bunnell
Yeah. So just a couple examples. So like emails, long enough for clarity. If, if you're. After you get the yes to get the yes. A good rule of thumb for an email is 50 words or less. Hey, would it be helpful if we got together to talk about a topic? Would it be helpful if I introduced you to somebody that did drive this kind of change in an organization? I've met 50 words or less. Because that's what shows up on one screen, on an iPhone, in Outlook. Huh. It makes it so easy to say yes to that one request. The bottom line is that when we're doing the work, we're creating certainty. We're driving to an outcome. We're the expert. We're going to get the job done on time. But we need a completely different mindset. If we're getting the yes, we're shaping possibility. We're instilling in others that they can do things that they didn't think they could do or didn't think should be a priority. That's a completely different mindset. It's a learnable skill. Of course, that's what Give to Grow teaches. But for the leaders listening or watching, the key thing here is that you don't want to just do great work and think the phone will ring and you'll get the promotions and the bonuses you want or win the work you want if you have external relationships or get the recruits you want if you're a sports team coach or something. No, you need a completely different mindset and move and set of moves to learn how to get the yes.
- [27:22]
Ryan Hawk
Can I focus on one of these real quick and have you go deeper?
- [27:25]
Mo Bunnell
Yep.
- [27:26]
Ryan Hawk
You win with. When it comes to winning the work, the best questions when you, when you're doing the work, the best answers. How about let's go deep there on. You win with the best questions when you're trying to get the work. But versus doing the work, it's you, you got to give the best answers.
- [27:45]
Mo Bunnell
This one's so powerful. And I'll share a trap to avoid as well because your audience may or may not see it. When we are delivering on something after, after it's approved, you want to go in with every answers. We should do this, we should do that. Here's my 45 page PowerPoint that documents every single decision we should make in my recommendation to do it. That makes sense. Alternatively, when we're winning the work, if we go in with a 45 PowerPoint with everything we think we should do, we're going to fail because you it's punching somebody in the face saying you didn't think of this, you haven't. You don't know how to do this. Only I know how to do. It's just repulsive. And a lot of times the trap people will fall into is that classic. Well, the thing I do works over here, so I'll do it over there. The thing I that I do when I'm delivering on the yes is the thing I should do when I'm getting this absolutely not true. Again, these are opposites. So the way that you can move somebody to want to work with you on something bigger is not to go in with answers, but go in with questions. What are your priorities? How would you describe that in your words? Let me play that back to you like you need like a dozen. Tell me more, tell me more, tell me more. Really, deeply understand what their priorities are. And it's only then that you can suggest a next step that goes in the direction that's mutually beneficial.
- [29:08]
Ryan Hawk
100%. This is why I think in the professional sales process, which I think this could apply well beyond just the profession of selling, the discovery phase is so important. And that's what this is. The discovery phase is being curious, asking questions, trying to understand. When I was a sales leader, it was amazing to go on a call with the best of the best salespeople because what they did, they were so good at learning about the people and the company and their problems. And they would spend hours and hours, sometimes multiple meetings in that discovery phase. And when the average to below average person would get. They'd so badly just want to start pitching, oh, we got something for that. Oh, we got something for that. Like instantly the person would say a problem and they're like, we got something for that versus the excellent one would be so much more patient. They would ask a follow up question, they would listen, they would take some notes and then eventually they get to the part where they give their recommendation, which may be a proposal or something like that. But here's. After everything we did, here's where I'm seeing could be helpful for you. Like my dad always told me a closer, the closing should not be an exclamation point. It should be the period at the end of a very long sentence. That's what the best closers do. And it sounds sexy and like I'm a closer. Dude, that's not what it's about, man. It's about listening. It's about asking questions, about being curious, about genuinely getting to know them. That's like why I honed in on that part Mo and and then saying here's what we think would be most helpful. And those people, it was like, it was so cool. But you could tell they genuinely cared, they were genuinely curious. It wasn't an act, it was them just being real. And that's what made them the best. And that's why they consistently overperformed because they cared. And again, I think that's a give to grow style leader and mentality. And the way that you are is like, let's ask questions, let's learn. Like even before this podcast started, you probably asked me is maybe more questions than any guest ever has to try to understand the audience and understand who could be listening so that you could be helpful for that specific person. That again, I think all of us would be better suited if. If we acted that way.
- [31:35]
Mo Bunnell
Oh yes, and this is exactly. You're pointing out the exact difference of if somebody does go in with this full fledged presentation in a discovery meeting, well, you, the other side feels sold to. You're throwing spaghetti at the wall. Like it's efficient for anybody and it's not an enjoyable process. So this would be cool. There's a. So you, you're really diving into a chapter in give to grow called fall in love with their problem. Which I just love that headline. Fall in love with their problem. I'll share another thing on my screen which is super valuable. This is in like this really cool toolkit that that we built is we created this list of 50 plus. Go to questions that help you with discovery and I'll give you a framework and some specific examples. Framework is Diana Tamir has done this, the killer research. She should be famous. She is in like peer reviewed literature, but not in the normal world. Like Adam Greatest. Her stuff's awesome. She hooks functional MRI machines up to people and can tell what part of the brain is firing when they're answering certain types of questions. And what she found is that when people are answering questions that's called in the literature called self disclosure information. I think it's sdi. It's something like that. But SDI for sure. It's basically things that only they know is the key. When we ask questions that make it clear we're asking for something only they know. The pleasure center of the brain fires. Same area of the brain that fires when we drink a Red Bull, when we're on stimulants, when we eat a great dessert at a restaurant. Like the pleasure center rules the roost, especially for short term activities. So if we can ask our questions in a certain way, then we're going to light up the pleasure center of the other person's mind. The key here is to learn their priorities and their words. So real tactically, how do you do that? Well, here's some examples on the screen. We can read some of these for the, for audio only listeners, but every one of these questions is designed to make it clear we want to learn something only they know. How would people feel if you did it, did it the way you'd like? What would your role look like if there were no restrictions on you? Hey, what excites you the most as you look into the future? What has been your most enjoyable work experience that you've had with partners like us? What historic, like real specific stuff like what historical data do you think we should use to benchmark the future improvements so we can be able to show a big win at the end of this? We got 50 of the 50 plus of these and these are just great thoughts. As people prepare for meetings, they can just pluck these, tweak them a little bit and have some insanely deep discovery calls where the other side is a going to. Their pleasure center is firing. So they're literally on a high and we're going to learn two things, their priorities and Their words to your point. Then when we make that recommendation, it's a hand in glove fit. First try one go instead of the throw the spaghetti at the wall method, which unfortunately a lot of people fall deeply into that trap.
- [34:33]
Ryan Hawk
So this is all the stuff that you use as you're working to grow your business, I assume, and I'd love, make you sure. Like an example, I don't know if you want to name or not name a client, but like maybe their industry or what they do. I'd love to hear like how you actually implement the stuff that you're teaching others to.
- [34:48]
Mo Bunnell
Oh yeah. So we, we think of. So, so let's say somebody reads the book Give to Grow and they come to us and go, oh my gosh, our whole team needs this because like 99 of what we do is these big corporate trainings to teach skills like this at large global entities. So some of the largest Fortune 500 and professional service firms in the world that, that really want a generosity driven, authentic approach.
- [35:11]
Ryan Hawk
So that's what, that's your target. That's one of your targets is you'll, you'll be brought in for it with a large company and you will teach like the Give to Grow methodology of how they could better serve their clients.
- [35:25]
Mo Bunnell
That's exactly right. So like, okay, like half our clientele are professional services. You met people that have a one foot in a service offering one fit in business growth. And then about half our clientele are large, large product or service based businesses. Fortune 500 companies that have scale and you know, are sort of tired of the manipulative sales tactics and want to do something that's, that's more long term focused and more authentic. So, so let's say somebody reads Give to Grow. It's a senior level leader. We're going to be in all four major airport bookstores, which is exciting. So somebody's going in for some beef jerky. They see Give to Grow, they read it, they started on a plane and they like email us like halfway to Albuquerque. Like this book's amazing. It looks like you do training. What do you do? This has already happened a ton of times. The book came out yesterday. It's already happened with some of the advanced copies that were out there. Anyway, what we would want to do is set up a call and if we had a 30 minute call, I actually want them talking for the first 20 or 23 minutes. It's that important. Like I want us talking 15% of the time and them talking 85% of the time in a First call that's appropriate about them talking roughly 80 what through all the questions we're going to ask about what are their growth goals. If they could wave a magic wand and say I would like my people to do this. Not that. What's the ROI? If people can become 1% better, what's the difference that your CFO would notice on the bottom line if we did things like that? What other programs have you done that have worked and not worked? A bunch of personal perspective questions that would really isolate how we can be helpful. Then what we're doing is we're looking to intersperse this exact phrase. Would it be helpful if we blank. I'm looking for five or six of those in a call just like what you, you and I have had on our calls. Like I'm almost fighting to help them instead of them hire us. And so it might be things like would it be helpful if I send you a document that outlines our whole change management strategy? You can use it for any change management, but it works really well. Yeah, I'd love that. Would it be helpful if we introduce you to an organization? We could name names if we weren't on a podcast that are elite, like the best in the world of growth that we've helped and played a role in that. Would it be helpful if we introduce you to your peer at XYZ organization? Well, gosh. You would do that? Yeah. Happy to. Here's a big one. Would it be helpful if you sent two or three people to an open workshop? We have. I'm going to wait all waive all the fees. It usually cost $5,000 a person. Let us invest in your success. You come to Atlanta. I want you to experience how great this is. This is on that us. Would that be helpful? Yeah. When's the next one? So I'm looking for five or six ones like that so that they. They end the zoom call and they're like, I'm getting more support from this organization I haven't hired yet than my other partners I'm spending a lot with. I want that kind of feeling with all these really meaningful follow ups. You got a 95 if there's fit. You got like a 95 chance of winning work. And you're not even trying to win work.
- [38:28]
Ryan Hawk
And you're. You're kind of in this my. I don't want to speak for you, but I will. I guess you're going to plant seeds always like you're always planting seeds knowing that not all of them will. Will grow, but probably a Lot of them will. Right. If you're just adding value. Adding value. But your whole. The. I love the mindset because I think this could apply to anybody though. The mindset of I'm always planting seeds and I'm always thinking of ways to add value to your life. It's weird how things seem to work out. Just random introductions, random things to help people. Like you said, doing things like that. If your default setting is set to what can I do to help them? And you do that basically with everybody you interact in your life, I would probably place a big bet on you to do well. Whatever it is you're doing, whatever it is, if that is your mentality is I'm going to plant seeds, I'm going to water them, I'm going to help people, I'm going to make introductions. I'm going to give them free resources that we've spent 30 years putting together. Whatever it may be, the chance of you doing well are dramatically high. Even though you know there are going to be a number of them where nothing will come from it. You will not see a dime of revenue. It won't work. But if that's your. Your mentality, I like your odds.
- [39:44]
Mo Bunnell
You got it. And that's where people can get that double exponential curve of growth is that you don't see it right away. A lot of this, especially the network effect. Jane talking with sue about how great you are at a park because they.
- [39:55]
Ryan Hawk
Just each other realize they both delayed gratification again.
- [39:58]
Mo Bunnell
Right? Yeah, exactly. Like. Like a lot of this is invisible. But I'm telling you it works like as is a very personal thing. One of the things I do is we drink our own champagne. I do a weekly planning process that takes about 15 minutes. And I pick. There's a specific way to do it. But we. I picked in the book. But I picked three proactive change agent kind of things I'm going to do the next week, every week. 333-333-FOREVER. These are the things that it's not reactive, it's proactive. It has a big potential impact. It's helpful to others and it would likely be helpful to us. But no strings attached. Well 333 one of the things I do is journal like how are things going? What good things happen this week? What that bad things happens this week. There's a bunch of research out of Harvard that says people that celebrate incremental progress. Teresa Mobley is the core researcher here. People that celebrate incremental progress are not only the happiest, but they're the most successful. So by doing this little weekly ritual, you're just celebrating the little progress you made. You're disconnecting yourself from the outcomes you want. And you do it week over week over week. So here's my point is the last couple years, Ryan, I have pro. I'll bet in 80% of my little 15 minute journal entries, I've said something along the lines of I can't believe how things are speeding up. I can't believe how our impact's getting bigger. It's stunning to me the scale that we're impacting the world, because I'm on this double exponential curve. And man, exponential grows. It starts going vertical at some point and I feel like that's where we've been at the last couple years, where it's almost shocking to think how different it was even a year before, three years before, five years before. Like it's, you're, you're growing quickly but, but that curve gets steep fast. And we're here, we're climbing fast and you just have this overwhelming sensation that the world is cheering you on and helping you in massive ways just because of all these seeds like you talked about that have been planted.
- [42:05]
Ryan Hawk
You've heard of pronoia? Have you heard of this?
- [42:08]
Mo Bunnell
Yeah.
- [42:10]
Ryan Hawk
So basically, basically you believe the world is out to help you be successful. And I, I like pronoia, especially when coupled with the idea to constantly look for ways to help others do well. And it just seems like things work out more. But I was thinking mo how this applies to the mid level leader or not the business owner. And I think again from, as a, from a former sales guy, rep, manager, director, vp, you know that, that whole thing over the course of 12 years, it 100% applies to that person. If you're trying to sell something or if you're trying to is if you have your prospects or your customer, customer base and your mindset is what can I do to help them?
- [42:59]
Mo Bunnell
Yep.
- [42:59]
Ryan Hawk
What can I do to help them? If, if you're proactively. I like that. Proactively thinking of ways to help them, thinking of things that are outside of just the normal, what some would say sales process of like I helped them for free or I did something again. Yes. Some of them will net zero. That's, that's just the way it goes. However, I believe whether it's internally at your place of work or with potential customers, if you are proactively seeking ways to solve their problems, the chances of you crushing your whatever sales quota is go way, way up. It Just, I think it's a mindset shift. Right. Mo? That's really what it is, is what can I do to help the people in my life. And if I do that, things just seem to go better for everybody and.
- [43:49]
Mo Bunnell
It'S enjoyable and you wake up having fun. It's fun. Exactly.
- [43:53]
Ryan Hawk
Yeah. I go back and forth on this. Okay. When it comes to my business, my life, myself, where sometimes I put out these big, hairy, audacious goals. Jim Collins esque. And they're, they're results based. And then other times I think I just want to focus on the daily process.
- [44:14]
Mo Bunnell
Yep.
- [44:14]
Ryan Hawk
I, I don't really. I want to surrender that outcome. I just want to focus on this. And so I go back and forth where, what. When it comes to you, like for yourself as well as your business, like, how do you set your goals? Do you set goals? What's your process there?
- [44:30]
Mo Bunnell
Oh, yeah. Well, you know what? I'll show you this. I've never shared this at scale before. Gr, we're putting it in four wheel drive. We're going off in the woods. Are you ready?
- [44:42]
Ryan Hawk
Let's see it.
- [44:43]
Mo Bunnell
I have this up because this is.
- [44:45]
Ryan Hawk
Kind of a must for YouTube, I think. Or we can clip it too. But this is. I, I love that you're ready with visuals to share your screen and you know how to use zoom so well.
- [44:53]
Mo Bunnell
Well, yeah, we do.
- [44:54]
Ryan Hawk
Oh my gosh. What is this?
- [44:56]
Mo Bunnell
This is. Man, oh man. I got inspired by some people, you know, Grant, probably Grant Baldwin and Yes. Who's amazing at building culture. And Joel Neeb, who's a former F15 fighter pilot, instructor and stage four cancer survivor. He's. He's driving cultural change at scale at VMware. Good friends. And I got inspired and I realized that as we've grown our team that we didn't have our goals documented. In a way it was like sort of in my head or written down. So what you're looking at is a two pager and we can describe this for audio. And I feel like there's four major things to grow business. One is your solution has to be massively differentiated. So when we go into a client, when we go into a client, our materials that we train people, the 50,000 people have seen some version of this. They look different. Like they are like our training materials look unlike and more professional than anything I've ever seen. That's the solution that's at the bottom of the. This little four part structure. You want to have your solution really, really differentiated. Then there's three steps that go In a row. I call it pre bd. Some people call this marketing. Well actually everybody calls this marketing. I call it pre BD because I want it aligned with business development. So pre business development. How do we have one to many systems where people find out about us and they get so much value they're predisposed to use us and nobody else. They read give to grow, they read snowball system, they watch our YouTube videos, whatever. Then we want to have BD. We want to invite them to outreach to us in every single type of pre BD we have. Then we have very specific questions. We ask them how would you deploy and how would you make the decision Deploy. And then we've actually documented our six top potential offers of helpfulness. So we like look at this while we're on the call, hey, would it be helpful if you came to a public training, hey, would it be helpful if you made introductions to our team or elsewhere? Like we, we know what those are. And then like we said, you and I dropped into that BD meeting a little bit ago. I want, I want them talking 80% of the time. I want five or six follow ups and then when we deliver, so they've hired us at this point, man, I want wow experiences. I want that, I want them so I want them to expect a plus and we get them a plus plus, plus plus. And it all circles back around. So back to goals. I want to have all that documented. And we're always trying to improve each of those four areas as fast as possible. And then we have mapped out the exact impact that we want to have by 1 1, 20, 30 in how many digital downloads of people been impacted by? How many emails have we sent out with articles? How many books have been, are in circulation? Like we've mapped this whole thing out. And then we think of this one last thing. I know I'm going on and on. When we look at the numbers, we actually have somebody in our mind named Julie. And Julie went through our programs years ago as a top tier emerging lawyer. She made an income partner. She was thinking of leaving the practice of law, going in house because she, she did not want it. She didn't join become a lawyer to sell air quot the, the program was so tr grow big was. So the training was so transformative. She stayed in law, she got excited and now she's a major practice leader at even a more elite firm. And we got an email from her like 10 years later. We had lost track. She sent, she, she found us. She filled out a contact form on the website. Think of the work it takes to do this. She sent us this exact note. And you talk about a transformative experience. For every number we think about, we think that's another Julie. We got to find other Julies. We've got to help more people. So I'm rambling a bit. Is this, is this where you wanted to go?
- [48:45]
Ryan Hawk
I love it, man. Did you have help creating this or did you, is this something that you just know how to do?
- [48:51]
Mo Bunnell
I made it up because really I couldn't find anything else that had this simple model of how to scale how.
- [48:59]
Ryan Hawk
Many people on your team.
- [49:00]
Mo Bunnell
It's like in the 20 to 30, when you look at all of our internal folks and facilitators and all that.
- [49:06]
Ryan Hawk
How much of it are you doing versus running the business? How much are you actually on a stage or training or teaching? Or are you mainly the lead business development guy? And then the team goes and fulfills the work. How does that work?
- [49:20]
Mo Bunnell
Yes, that's down here in this solution box. There's three. There's a million ways clients can deploy with us because of course we want that hand in glove fit to meet their goals, as we talked about. But what I'm trying to do is more of the multi year transformational projects, the kind of training programs where they happen every year. Hey, every, every year when somebody gets promoted this level, we income partner, we put them through the training or when they get to account. Exactly, we put them through the training. So I try to stay involved in the more high value things over longer term, the things that are in the millions of dollars, not the hundreds of thousands of dollars, if that makes sense. And then we're trying to use the team for more of the, the smaller tens of thousand dollars engagement or hundreds of thousands and leverage the team there and try to steer my time to the, to the big on stage stuff and the things that are really, really big over time.
- [50:07]
Ryan Hawk
I see Vision 2030 and I have talked with podcast guests about this and again I go back and forth because some, some, some days I'm like, hey, one foot in front of the next, be consistent, get after it. Work, work, work. Good things will come as long as you just keep your eyes on the road in front of you and just don't quit. Just keep going. Here though, I see a Vision 2030 as if we're going to write this, we're going to try to tell the future, which again, this is for me, I struggle with this. Can you walk me through your idea of why you, you have this vision 2030, maybe talk a little bit about what's in it and how like you're trying to go get it.
- [50:48]
Mo Bunnell
Yeah, very specifically, this section right here, Vision 2030 is what I was really inspired by, by Grant Baldwin over at Speaker Lab because he's done this. Their teams literally, like read it out loud to each other when they have quarterly meetings. So they all immerse it. Here's the idea is that people can live their life in one of three ways. They can either drift, they can either be drifting, be driven, or live by design. And I got told this by a good friend of mine, drift. That's where you keep hustling every day. Every day you answer the emails, you do the things. But I'm in my late 50s now. Like, it's. I have a lot of friends now that have clearly drifted in life. You don't see this when you're in your 30s because everybody seems like they're having fun and doing a thing. But living your life by drift is you can just wake up at an older age and think, this didn't work out the way I wanted. Like, you've been busy the whole time. You took the kids to soccer practice, you answered the emails, you're on the zoom meetings, but just didn't quite turn out the way you envisioned. Driven. Driven's the second way. And that's where somebody can hyper emphasize one part of life, but at the, at the, at the detriment of another area of life. You know, they work so much, they sacrifice their family, it doesn't end well. They believe in triathlon so much that they. They train 40 hours a week and it messes up their family life, you know, or focused on family and they met to the detriment of work. But that's where you concede in one area but not succeed in another area the last, the third area is the way to go, and that's design. The only way to live your life with design is to write down where you want to be at some destination in the future. That's what this is at our corporate level. So you'll see with this what we try to do here. And I've tried to blow it up so people could see if they're on YouTube or whatever. But the idea is you want to like, describe and prose what you want the world, what you want to your world to look like at some pretty far out destination. Something that's close enough you can see it, but far enough, it's aspirational. Five to 10 years. And then if you match that prose with a very specific numbers. There's a really powerful thing going on in your mind. You can visualize what it feels like and you can see what it's like metric wise. And that's, That's a really, really powerful thing with. The first time I really did this in detail is I just hand wrote out a couple paragraphs like it was. Did it in like 10 minutes. But it was a. I forget what year was like 202008 or something. And I hand wrote out what I wanted things to look like. So it wasn't nearly as complicated as I just took five minutes and wrote it up. I looked at that all the time, and it incorporated business and family and health and fitness and all the domains of life. And we. And I. I can remember distinctly, Ryan, I turned the. I turned the pencil around and I almost erased the numbers like revenue and what, what our net worth was like and things like that. Because I, I literally didn't know anybody in my life that had hit that. And I thought it was insurmountable. And I remember, no, I'm gonna go for. I got 10 years. I'm gonna figure this out. And Ryan, we didn't just hit it in 10 years. We hit that in eight years. And it was like 80% higher than what I'd written down.
- [54:05]
Ryan Hawk
Wait, when Was this?
- [54:06]
Mo Bunnell
From 2008 to like 2016 or something like that.
- [54:10]
Ryan Hawk
Are you okay to share those numbers?
- [54:12]
Mo Bunnell
I'm not. I. I don't. I get, I get. I get.
- [54:16]
Ryan Hawk
It's kind of inspirational, man. I, like, juice me up.
- [54:19]
Mo Bunnell
I know, but I'll tell you offline, but I don't, I don't want to do that because I think it can really come across the wrong way. Whenever I talk about dollars and cents, I think of the Disney quote, we make money to make movies, or we make movies, we make money to make more movies. Right, the reward.
- [54:38]
Ryan Hawk
Yeah, yeah, the reward. I'm not going to push you, but the reward is that you get to keep doing this amazing work. Right? That's part of the desire to, to earn revenue for your company is so you can impact more people. You get to work with great people. You could hire more people and work with even more great people, which I know is part of that vision, right? Is having more people as part of it. And that's where I think it's. That's. That's how I feel too, with what I get to do is like part of the reward or really, for me, almost the, the all of the reward is that I just get to keep doing this thing. Like, it is so cool. It is. I'm so grateful that this is actually what you get to do. Like, growing up, this wasn't a job. This wasn't even a thing. And now, like.
- [55:30]
Mo Bunnell
You have community.
- [55:31]
Ryan Hawk
Like, you're killing, oh, 100% with the community part. I mean, these. You build these real, real relationships with people. One of my rules is blackout time every week. They respond to everybody who listens. And I think I love building those relationships. I'll never meet almost all of them, but to hear how a podcast or a book or a speech that you gave has impacted somebody's life, Isn't that the juice, Man? Like, that's so cool.
- [56:03]
Mo Bunnell
But Becky and I talk about this all the time. We don't care if somebody wants to be a hobo or if they want to be CEO, but we're impressed by people living the life they want to live. Yeah. So many people more in that drift mode that they want X, but they're living Y. And you're somebody I look up to is like, you're living the life you want to be of. Like, just back to you. Like, don't. Aren't you impressed by people like Warren Buffett and Betty White and people that, like, they're like, 97 and they're still doing the thing they love? Like, I want to be that person.
- [56:32]
Ryan Hawk
They don't want to retire. Retirement, I guess, is fine for some. I get it. Like, some you do have to grow up and have a job at times.
- [56:40]
Mo Bunnell
But.
- [56:40]
Ryan Hawk
And by the way you talk about Buffett, part of what probably keeps them alive is the fact that he is a learning machine. And that is inspirational as well as, like, he's not even really, like, in the best physical shape. He drinks Coke, eats candy. But his brain, he's a learning machine. He's striving to go to bed a little bit wiser than he was when he woke up, just like Charlie Munger did, too. And I think that's motivating as well. I want to work out and stay in shape and all that, but I also got to do it with my mind. I got to go to bed a little bit wiser. And having these types of conversations do that for me, man. So, like, this is cool. I know we. We're right at time, so we gotta run, but I do. I saw that, like, occasionally you'll go to these off site masterminds. People had tweeted about these. A few different guys have where you'll go and share. I'm curious like your. I know this is a little bit of a left hand turn, but it's also about community and it's about giving to a group of people. When you go away, what's your overall mindset on like how to do that well and how do you show up to add value to people's lives when you do these kind of small mastermind retreats to a cool property with a pool, one of them, I think you're giving a talk when people are in a pool. I'm just curious like what you think about that.
- [57:57]
Mo Bunnell
Yeah, I think masterminds are one of the most important unlocks to what I've been able to do over the last 10 years. I got invited to one that Sean Blanc does and that was, that's what opened my eyes to these. And now I'm in five different ones. Wow. Becky, it sometimes thinks I'm in the 5 is 4 too many. But, but she's, she's met these people. So here's what a mastermind does. A mastermind that old saw of you become the five people that you spend the most time around. I don't know that numbers right. But we definitely the, the normative nature of the people we interact with the most does become normal. What do the people around us do? And as you reach a certain level of performance, you're not going to find folks in your, maybe even in your organization or your community. And you got to reach outside of that if you really want to go to next level performance. That's what a mastermind can do. So of these five, there's three and three, I'll point out. One is Sean's group where we get together in Breckenridge for like three days. And it's very small, it's like eight or 10 people. And that when I have learned how to scale more of a B2B business in a B2C way that I never would have learned out without it. Like the people everybody's from like different companies and do different things. They're all creators, they're all net givers, which is, that's a filter that Sean and I would agree on is amazing. So that one has helped me scale in ways that we never could have done, that helped me get those goals and eight years that I didn't even think were possible in 10, that kind of thing. I think that group more than anything else exposed me to things I could do there. The second group we put on which is called Mashup and Sean and I like the intimate idea. So we did a Bigger one. So we invite 42 at my house. That's the picture you saw in our backyard. We have 12 acres and horses. It's really cool. So it's a perfect venue for this. We have 50 people this year and we call that mashup the mastermind of awesome, superhuman, unreal people. And the neat thing about that is I saw how people looked up to Sean for the small group. So. And I wanted. We wanted. We both wanted a bit more of a networking group. Little less content, a little more human to human helpfulness. So we increased that, widened the aperture a little bit. We have mashup. It went so well the first year, we're doing it a second year. And that's then what's important about that is each person ahead of time shares, here's how I can help people and here's where I want help. And share that database with everybody beforehand. So what they. When they arrive, Jim sees Josh over in a corner, says, oh, I can help you on this thing. I saw your thing. I want to talk to you. And because everybody's filtered on net giving like there's no, hi, my name's Mo. What do you do? Like, everybody instantaneously knows who they want to go to and it's all based on helpfulness. And then the third group is this, this crazy group I shouldn't even be in, but it's of. Of elite adventure athletes. And I probably shouldn't be in that one, Ryan, but that one's inspiring from a fitness perspective. I mean, like, couple guys read the ran the Leadville 100 a couple weeks ago. We're all cheering them on in a text group. Another Guy climbed up Mount McKinley with a paragliding set on his back. And Parent was the first person to ever climb up and light off Mount McKinley. Well, when I was hesitating to run around the neighborhood for five miles on a Saturday, I'm like, this guy just paraglided off Mount McKinley. I can run in the humidity in Atlanta. And I ran a little fast. So anyway, that's a fitness one, so you get the idea. It's about inspiring and building community and it's just, it's a way to completely unlock a next level of performance. Wow.
- [61:33]
Ryan Hawk
Love it, man. The book, the most latest book is called Give to Grow. Invest in relationships to build your business and your career. Oh, we both got it here. Sweet. Feels good, man. Really excited for you, Mo. I know this thing is going to take. I think this is one. It's like it's not going to hit with a splash and then just slowly fade away. I feel like it will get better and better and better as far as, like, sales will go up, which is the opposite of most books where they say start strong and then kind of fall apart. So I give to grow, though. Invest in relationships to build your business and your career. This is awesome, man. I really appreciate it and I'm certain that this will not be the last time we talk. I'd love to continue our dialogue as we both progress.
- [62:12]
Mo Bunnell
Man, I love it. And if people want more that not only can get give to grow everywhere, like it's everywhere, but also in all different formats. But also we, we developed a free training class and that's at givetogrow.info.info. all those downloads I show, not the one about our company. I've kept that a little. I try to zoom in, but I've kept that sort of behind the wall because there's some more intimate stuff there. But, but anyway, all those downloads, like the 50/go to questions. There's a team launch guide for people to implement give to grow across the team, a secret chapter downloads, the doing versus winning chart. All that's over@givetogrow.info and people can get it right away.
- [62:49]
Ryan Hawk
Love it. So good drinking your own champagne, right? You're doing it exactly the way you teach others. Just giving, giving, giving, planting seeds. Awesome, man. All right, Mo, thanks so much, man. Look forward to the next one.
- [63:00]
Mo Bunnell
Thank you. This has been so fun. You're probably the best interviewer I've ever had. So, man, I just. This is. This has been a blast. Thanks.
- [63:06]
Ryan Hawk
Thank you, man. That means a lot. Appreciate it. Mo. It is the end of the podcast club. Thank you for being a member of the end of the podcast club. If you are, send me a note. Ryan learningleader.com Let me know what you learned from this great conversation with Mo Bunnell. A few takeaways from my notes. Quote, I wake up every morning looking to help my friends succeed and some just happen to be clients. I love this way of proactively thinking of ways to add value to others. That is a great way to build a meaningful life and probably a pretty good business too. And then people can live in one of three ways. They can drift, which you know, you stay busy, answer some emails, do what you need to do each day. Or they can be driven, which is they hyper emphasize one part of their life potentially to the detriment of others. Or as Mo says, this is the best way by design. Write down where you want to be and make a plan to get there. I love that Mo shared the internal document and you can see this again if you watch the YouTube YouTube.com ryanhawk the internal document that states his 2030 vision as well as his plan to achieve it. It's a big, big goal and then Celebrate incremental progress. I appreciate that Mo writes in a journal about the growth of himself, his business and his clients, the people he helps. I think we'd all be better off if we were better at celebrating the incremental progress in our life. And he stated some of the research that Teresa Amabile talks about which which if you are regularly thinking about progress and growth and documenting that it leads to a more fulfilling life. Once again, I want to say thank you so much for continuing to spread the message and telling a friend or two, hey, you should listen to this episode of the Learning Leader show with Mo Bunnell. I think he'll help you become a more effective leader because you continue to do that. And you also go to Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You subscribe to the show, you write a thoughtful review and you hopefully rate it 5 stars. By doing all of that, you are continually giving me the opportunity to do what I love on a daily basis, and for that I will forever be grateful. Thank you so, so much. Talk to you soon. Can't wait.